Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:33 AM - Re: Air system Flush (Ernest Martinez)
2. 07:43 AM - Doug Sapp Contact me off list (Ernest Martinez)
3. 07:50 AM - Re: Air system Flush (jblake207@comcast.net)
4. 08:19 AM - Re: Air system Flush (Ernest Martinez)
5. 09:42 AM - Re: Air system Flush (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
6. 09:57 AM - Re: Air system Flush (Ernest Martinez)
7. 10:20 AM - Re: Air system Flush (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
8. 10:25 AM - Re: Air system Flush (Ernest Martinez)
9. 10:34 AM - Re: Air system Flush (A. Dennis Savarese)
10. 10:41 AM - Re: Air system Flush (Ernest Martinez)
11. 10:46 AM - Re: Air system Flush (doug sapp)
12. 11:09 AM - Re: Air system Flush (Ernest Martinez)
13. 11:28 AM - Re: Air system Flush (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
14. 11:35 AM - Re: Air system Flush (Roger Kemp)
15. 11:38 AM - Re: Air system Flush (Ernest Martinez)
16. 12:38 PM - Re: Air system Flush (Warren Hill)
17. 12:58 PM - Re: Air system Flush (Ernest Martinez)
18. 02:11 PM - Re: Air system Flush (Gary Gabbard)
19. 08:02 PM - Re: Air system Flush (Roger Kemp)
20. 08:32 PM - Re: Air system Flush (Roger Kemp)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Air system Flush |
I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is accurate. I'll
just use castor oil to be safe.
Thanks
Ernie
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com> wrote:
> Ernie,
> As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool oil.
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the air lines of a CJ? I was
> just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just beyond the desiccant, and
> disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and then empty a few scuba
> bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear and Flap handles.
>
> Thoughts???
>
> Thanks
>
> Ernie
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Doug Sapp Contact me off list |
Doug,
Been trying to email you not sure if my emails are ending up in your spam
folder.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Air system Flush |
Ernie,
=C2-
Not saying Doc is wrong, but I introduce a couple ounces of air tool oil in
to my airplane each year on the condition inspection.=C2- I do this by si
mply squirting the air tool oil down the scuba hose then connecting the hos
e to the Schrader valve on the airplane and opening the scuba tank thus for
cing the oil from the hose to the main air system.=C2- BJ told me to do t
his when I first bought the airplane 9 years ago and I haven't had any issu
es.=C2- I did get Doug to rebuild a MLG actuator and I replaced the shutt
le valves in the first couple years I owned the airplane, but no trouble si
nce then.=C2- The other thing I do that I think is a big help to the air
system is to replace the filter elements and desiccant every few months or
about 50 hours. I should increase the frequency given the humidity here nea
r the Gulf coast.
=C2-
Hope this helps.
=C2- JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 7:31:59 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is accurate. I'll
just use castor oil to be safe.
Thanks
Ernie
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp < f16viperdoc@me.com > wrote:
Ernie,
As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool oil.=C2-
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez < erniel29@gmail.com > wrote:
<blockquote>
Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the air lines of a CJ? I was ju
st thinking of injecting a little tool oil just beyond the desiccant, and d
isconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and then empty a few scuba bottle
s through the systems while actuating the Gear and Flap handles.
Thoughts???
Thanks
Ernie=C2-
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
</blockquote>
===
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Air system Flush |
Yea, Smilely told me the same thing. But I don't like the idea of injecting
the oil at the service port, not sure I want oil going through the
desiccant.
On Monday, August 25, 2014, <jblake207@comcast.net> wrote:
> Ernie,
>
>
> Not saying Doc is wrong, but I introduce a couple ounces of air tool oil
> into my airplane each year on the condition inspection. I do this by
> simply squirting the air tool oil down the scuba hose then connecting the
> hose to the Schrader valve on the airplane and opening the scuba tank thus
> forcing the oil from the hose to the main air system. BJ told me to do
> this when I first bought the airplane 9 years ago and I haven't had any
> issues. I did get Doug to rebuild a MLG actuator and I replaced the
> shuttle valves in the first couple years I owned the airplane, but no
> trouble since then. The other thing I do that I think is a big help to the
> air system is to replace the filter elements and desiccant every few months
> or about 50 hours. I should increase the frequency given the humidity here
> near the Gulf coast.
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
> JB
> ------------------------------
> *From: *"Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','erniel29@gmail.com');>>
> *To: *"Yak-List" <yak-list@matronics.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','yak-list@matronics.com');>>
> *Sent: *Monday, August 25, 2014 7:31:59 AM
> *Subject: *Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is accurate.
> I'll just use castor oil to be safe.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','f16viperdoc@me.com');>> wrote:
>
>> Ernie,
>> As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool oil.
>> Doc
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','erniel29@gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>
>> Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the air lines of a CJ? I
>> was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just beyond the desiccant,
>> and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and then empty a few scuba
>> bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear and Flap handles.
>>
>> Thoughts???
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> 3D============================================
>> 3D============================================
>> 3D============================================
>> 3D============================================
>>
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
> p://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Air system Flush |
As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read the manual. Task cards
indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly "where" a very small amount
is to be put in.
As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban legend that can usually be
traced back to some previous owner saying "He did it all the time", and if you
go back still further, you can find it in the Yak List Archives going back 12
years or so ago.
There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but if that action was deemed
necessary for whatever reason, the best course of action would be to isolate
the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and then blowing it out with an
inert gas such as nitrogen. I'd be very curious as to how the pneumatic air
lines in these aircraft would ever get to the point of needing "flushing", especially
if filters are maintained.
That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid deterioration of the seals used
in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50. I know from very close and up front
personal experience in my aircraft after following that advice from the YAK
List recommendations, many many years ago which gave me my first experience
using Emergency Gear Blow Down.
But it is not really quite as simple as that. A lot of this issue has to do with
the age of the seals, and whether they have been replaced (actuators rebuilt)
recently, and what material might have been used with the new seals. Over
time the original seals tend to harden. If a seal such as this is exposed to
Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften and then break apart. This is why
some folks who have put this "stuff" into their systems have seen immediate failure
and others have not.
In the end, I tend to stick with what the original manufacturer of these aircraft
recommended and let everyone else debate the wisdom of putting a foreign substance
into such a critical component as landing gear actuators. A smart move
might be to remove, rebuild, and then replace all actuators on these aircraft
on some type of scheduled basis, and not fly them until failure.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is accurate. I'll just
use castor oil to be safe.
Thanks
Ernie
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com> wrote:
Ernie,
As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool oil.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the air lines of a CJ? I was just
thinking of injecting a little tool oil just beyond the desiccant, and disconnect
the B-Nuts at all the actuators and then empty a few scuba bottles through
the systems while actuating the Gear and Flap handles.
Thoughts???
Thanks
Ernie
3D============================================
3D============================================
3D============================================
3D============================================
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Air system Flush |
When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with rust and gunk,
and the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and Gear valves and
actuators, then you assume that the air system was NOT maintained properly.
So......I'm pulling all the diverters since they act like little sediment
traps, and rebuilding them all, AND I'm going to assume that all this rust
and gunk is throughout the air system. Which also means pulling the air
bottles cause who knows what shape they're in and is probably the source of
the rust. Log books say they were Hydro tested last year, but I don't
believe anything that was written by a particular mechanic for a Well Known
CJ importer/builder/seller, after some of the things I've found.
Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an interesting point
yesterday. How in the world can we legally get these bottles Hydro Tested?
They're not DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm actually
considering just using Scuba bottles instead.
Ernie
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read the manual.
> Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly "where" a very
> small amount is to be put in.
>
> As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban legend that can
> usually be traced back to some previous owner saying "He did it all the
> time", and if you go back still further, you can find it in the Yak List
> Archives going back 12 years or so ago.
>
> There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but if that action
> was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best course of action would
> be to isolate the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and then blowing
> it out with an inert gas such as nitrogen. I'd be very curious as to how
> the pneumatic air lines in these aircraft would ever get to the point of
> needing "flushing", especially if filters are maintained.
>
> That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid deterioration of the
> seals used in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50. I know from very
> close and up front personal experience in my aircraft after following that
> advice from the YAK List recommendations, many many years ago which gave me
> my first experience using Emergency Gear Blow Down.
>
> But it is not really quite as simple as that. A lot of this issue has to
> do with the age of the seals, and whether they have been replaced
> (actuators rebuilt) recently, and what material might have been used with
> the new seals. Over time the original seals tend to harden. If a seal
> such as this is exposed to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften and
> then break apart. This is why some folks who have put this "stuff" into
> their systems have seen immediate failure and others have not.
>
> In the end, I tend to stick with what the original manufacturer of these
> aircraft recommended and let everyone else debate the wisdom of putting a
> foreign substance into such a critical component as landing gear
> actuators. A smart move might be to remove, rebuild, and then replace all
> actuators on these aircraft on some type of scheduled basis, and not fly
> them until failure.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 8:32 AM
> To: yak-list
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is accurate.
> I'll just use castor oil to be safe.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ernie,
> As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool oil.
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the air lines
> of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just beyond the
> desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and then empty a
> few scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear and Flap
> handles.
>
> Thoughts???
>
> Thanks
>
> Ernie
>
>
> 3D============================================
>
> 3D============================================
>
> 3D============================================
>
> 3D============================================
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Air system Flush |
You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of internal corrosion on
the bottles themselves.
I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT approved". Nothing
in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this country, hence the Experimental
status of the aircraft, and the whole reason for "Conditional Inspections",
which basically say to the FAA that the aircraft is in a safe "condition" to
fly for another year.
It is true that various owners have replaced the original bottles with other designs,
usually due to a lack of OEM parts. Regarding getting the stock bottles
tested, my view boils down to the simple question of "should you get them tested
or not get them tested"? The answer (to me) is an obvious "yes", in that
the bottle is removed, the interior inspected for corrosion, and the bottle
is tested to verify that it can hold recommended pressures safely. The goal
is not to get a DOT certification of the bottle itself, but to simply verify
that it is safe using standard high pressure bottle procedures.
I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard aircraft certification
immediately and not Experimental. The actual issue might be that in certain
cases hydro testing stations will refuse to do the testing due to the lack of
a DOT stamp on the bottle.
In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to make such decisions
working with the A&P mechanic in due course of his aircraft's maintenance.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with rust and gunk, and
the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and Gear valves and actuators,
then you assume that the air system was NOT maintained properly. So......I'm
pulling all the diverters since they act like little sediment traps, and rebuilding
them all, AND I'm going to assume that all this rust and gunk is throughout
the air system. Which also means pulling the air bottles cause who knows what
shape they're in and is probably the source of the rust. Log books say they
were Hydro tested last year, but I don't believe anything that was written by
a particular mechanic for a Well Known CJ importer/builder/seller, after some
of the things I've found.
Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an interesting point yesterday.
How in the world can we legally get these bottles Hydro Tested? They're not
DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm actually considering just using
Scuba bottles instead.
Ernie
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
wrote:
As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read the manual.
Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly "where" a very small
amount is to be put in.
As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban legend that can usually
be traced back to some previous owner saying "He did it all the time", and
if you go back still further, you can find it in the Yak List Archives going
back 12 years or so ago.
There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but if that action
was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best course of action would be
to isolate the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and then blowing it out
with an inert gas such as nitrogen. I'd be very curious as to how the pneumatic
air lines in these aircraft would ever get to the point of needing "flushing",
especially if filters are maintained.
That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid deterioration of the seals
used in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50. I know from very close and
up front personal experience in my aircraft after following that advice from
the YAK List recommendations, many many years ago which gave me my first experience
using Emergency Gear Blow Down.
But it is not really quite as simple as that. A lot of this issue has
to do with the age of the seals, and whether they have been replaced (actuators
rebuilt) recently, and what material might have been used with the new seals.
Over time the original seals tend to harden. If a seal such as this is exposed
to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften and then break apart. This
is why some folks who have put this "stuff" into their systems have seen immediate
failure and others have not.
In the end, I tend to stick with what the original manufacturer of these
aircraft recommended and let everyone else debate the wisdom of putting a foreign
substance into such a critical component as landing gear actuators. A
smart move might be to remove, rebuild, and then replace all actuators on these
aircraft on some type of scheduled basis, and not fly them until failure.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 8:32 AM
To: yak-list
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is accurate.
I'll just use castor oil to be safe.
Thanks
Ernie
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com> wrote:
Ernie,
As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool oil.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
wrote:
Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the air lines
of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just beyond the
desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and then empty a few
scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear and Flap handles.
Thoughts???
Thanks
Ernie
3D============================================
3D============================================
3D============================================
3D============================================
List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
==========
FORUMS -
_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Air system Flush |
I have been enlightened through back channels of DOT approved hydro testers
on the bottles.
Ernie
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of internal
> corrosion on the bottles themselves.
>
> I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT approved".
> Nothing in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this country, hence the
> Experimental status of the aircraft, and the whole reason for "Conditional
> Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the aircraft is in a safe
> "condition" to fly for another year.
>
> It is true that various owners have replaced the original bottles with
> other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM parts. Regarding getting the
> stock bottles tested, my view boils down to the simple question of "should
> you get them tested or not get them tested"? The answer (to me) is an
> obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior inspected for
> corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify that it can hold recommended
> pressures safely. The goal is not to get a DOT certification of the bottle
> itself, but to simply verify that it is safe using standard high pressure
> bottle procedures.
>
> I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard aircraft
> certification immediately and not Experimental. The actual issue might be
> that in certain cases hydro testing stations will refuse to do the testing
> due to the lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.
>
> In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to make such
> decisions working with the A&P mechanic in due course of his aircraft's
> maintenance.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 12:56 PM
> To: yak-list
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with rust and gunk,
> and the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and Gear valves and
> actuators, then you assume that the air system was NOT maintained properly.
> So......I'm pulling all the diverters since they act like little sediment
> traps, and rebuilding them all, AND I'm going to assume that all this rust
> and gunk is throughout the air system. Which also means pulling the air
> bottles cause who knows what shape they're in and is probably the source of
> the rust. Log books say they were Hydro tested last year, but I don't
> believe anything that was written by a particular mechanic for a Well Known
> CJ importer/builder/seller, after some of the things I've found.
>
> Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an interesting point
> yesterday. How in the world can we legally get these bottles Hydro Tested?
> They're not DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm actually
> considering just using Scuba bottles instead.
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>
> WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read the
> manual. Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly
> "where" a very small amount is to be put in.
>
> As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban legend that
> can usually be traced back to some previous owner saying "He did it all the
> time", and if you go back still further, you can find it in the Yak List
> Archives going back 12 years or so ago.
>
> There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but if that
> action was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best course of action
> would be to isolate the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and then
> blowing it out with an inert gas such as nitrogen. I'd be very curious as
> to how the pneumatic air lines in these aircraft would ever get to the
> point of needing "flushing", especially if filters are maintained.
>
> That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid deterioration of
> the seals used in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50. I know from very
> close and up front personal experience in my aircraft after following that
> advice from the YAK List recommendations, many many years ago which gave me
> my first experience using Emergency Gear Blow Down.
>
> But it is not really quite as simple as that. A lot of this issue
> has to do with the age of the seals, and whether they have been replaced
> (actuators rebuilt) recently, and what material might have been used with
> the new seals. Over time the original seals tend to harden. If a seal
> such as this is exposed to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften and
> then break apart. This is why some folks who have put this "stuff" into
> their systems have seen immediate failure and others have not.
>
> In the end, I tend to stick with what the original manufacturer of
> these aircraft recommended and let everyone else debate the wisdom of
> putting a foreign substance into such a critical component as landing gear
> actuators. A smart move might be to remove, rebuild, and then replace all
> actuators on these aircraft on some type of scheduled basis, and not fly
> them until failure.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 8:32 AM
> To: yak-list
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is
> accurate. I'll just use castor oil to be safe.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Ernie,
> As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool oil.
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <
> erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the
> air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just
> beyond the desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and
> then empty a few scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear
> and Flap handles.
>
> Thoughts???
>
> Thanks
>
> Ernie
>
>
> 3D============================================
>
> 3D============================================
>
> 3D============================================
>
> 3D============================================
>
>
>
> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
Message 9
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|
| Subject: | Re: Air system Flush |
Call Doug. He can give you the name of the company that cleans and
tests the bottles for the CJ. You can also call Jill at M14P and she
can have the bottles tested. I'm certain neitherrequires DOT approval.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 8/25/2014 12:24 PM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
> I have been enlightened through back channels of DOT approved hydro
> testers on the bottles.
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>> wrote:
>
> WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>>
>
> You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of internal
> corrosion on the bottles themselves.
>
> I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT
> approved". Nothing in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this
> country, hence the Experimental status of the aircraft, and the
> whole reason for "Conditional Inspections", which basically say to
> the FAA that the aircraft is in a safe "condition" to fly for
> another year.
>
> It is true that various owners have replaced the original bottles
> with other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM parts.
> Regarding getting the stock bottles tested, my view boils down to
> the simple question of "should you get them tested or not get them
> tested"? The answer (to me) is an obvious "yes", in that the
> bottle is removed, the interior inspected for corrosion, and the
> bottle is tested to verify that it can hold recommended pressures
> safely. The goal is not to get a DOT certification of the bottle
> itself, but to simply verify that it is safe using standard high
> pressure bottle procedures.
>
> I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard
> aircraft certification immediately and not Experimental. The
> actual issue might be that in certain cases hydro testing stations
> will refuse to do the testing due to the lack of a DOT stamp on
> the bottle.
>
> In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to
> make such decisions working with the A&P mechanic in due course of
> his aircraft's maintenance.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Ernest
> Martinez
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 12:56 PM
> To: yak-list
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with rust
> and gunk, and the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and
> Gear valves and actuators, then you assume that the air system was
> NOT maintained properly. So......I'm pulling all the diverters
> since they act like little sediment traps, and rebuilding them
> all, AND I'm going to assume that all this rust and gunk is
> throughout the air system. Which also means pulling the air
> bottles cause who knows what shape they're in and is probably the
> source of the rust. Log books say they were Hydro tested last
> year, but I don't believe anything that was written by a
> particular mechanic for a Well Known CJ importer/builder/seller,
> after some of the things I've found.
>
> Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an interesting
> point yesterday. How in the world can we legally get these bottles
> Hydro Tested? They're not DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing
> something. I'm actually considering just using Scuba bottles instead.
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR,
> WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>> wrote:
>
>
> NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil
> <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>>
>
> As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read
> the manual. Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and
> exactly "where" a very small amount is to be put in.
>
> As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban
> legend that can usually be traced back to some previous owner
> saying "He did it all the time", and if you go back still further,
> you can find it in the Yak List Archives going back 12 years or so
> ago.
>
> There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but
> if that action was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best
> course of action would be to isolate the line by disconnecting it
> at both ends, and then blowing it out with an inert gas such as
> nitrogen. I'd be very curious as to how the pneumatic air lines in
> these aircraft would ever get to the point of needing "flushing",
> especially if filters are maintained.
>
> That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid
> deterioration of the seals used in the landing gear actuators of a
> YAK-50. I know from very close and up front personal experience
> in my aircraft after following that advice from the YAK List
> recommendations, many many years ago which gave me my first
> experience using Emergency Gear Blow Down.
>
> But it is not really quite as simple as that. A lot of
> this issue has to do with the age of the seals, and whether they
> have been replaced (actuators rebuilt) recently, and what material
> might have been used with the new seals. Over time the original
> seals tend to harden. If a seal such as this is exposed to
> Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften and then break apart.
> This is why some folks who have put this "stuff" into their
> systems have seen immediate failure and others have not.
>
> In the end, I tend to stick with what the original
> manufacturer of these aircraft recommended and let everyone else
> debate the wisdom of putting a foreign substance into such a
> critical component as landing gear actuators. A smart move might
> be to remove, rebuild, and then replace all actuators on these
> aircraft on some type of scheduled basis, and not fly them until
> failure.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Ernest
> Martinez
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 8:32 AM
> To: yak-list
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what
> is accurate. I'll just use castor oil to be safe.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp
> <f16viperdoc@me.com <mailto:f16viperdoc@me.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Ernie,
> As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like
> tool oil.
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez
> <erniel29@gmail.com <mailto:erniel29@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Anyone have any suggestions on flushing
> out the air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a
> little tool oil just beyond the desiccant, and disconnect the
> B-Nuts at all the actuators and then empty a few scuba bottles
> through the systems while actuating the Gear and Flap handles.
>
> Thoughts???
>
> Thanks
>
> Ernie
>
>
> 3D============================================
> 3D============================================
> 3D============================================
> 3D============================================
>
>
>
> List"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> ==========
> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 10
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|
| Subject: | Re: Air system Flush |
Thanks Dennis,
Currently looking for someone locally. Also perusing the archives for the
size of the bottle fitting, unless someone already knows that off hand :)
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:32 PM, A. Dennis Savarese <
dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Call Doug. He can give you the name of the company that cleans and
> tests the bottles for the CJ. You can also call Jill at M14P and she can
> have the bottles tested. I'm certain neither requires DOT approval.
> Dennis
>
> A. Dennis Savarese334-285-6263334-546-8182 (mobile)www.yak-52.com
> Skype - Yakguy1
>
> On 8/25/2014 12:24 PM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
>
> I have been enlightened through back channels of DOT approved hydro
> testers on the bottles.
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of internal
>> corrosion on the bottles themselves.
>>
>> I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT
>> approved". Nothing in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this country,
>> hence the Experimental status of the aircraft, and the whole reason for
>> "Conditional Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the aircraft
>> is in a safe "condition" to fly for another year.
>>
>> It is true that various owners have replaced the original bottles with
>> other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM parts. Regarding getting the
>> stock bottles tested, my view boils down to the simple question of "should
>> you get them tested or not get them tested"? The answer (to me) is an
>> obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior inspected for
>> corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify that it can hold recommended
>> pressures safely. The goal is not to get a DOT certification of the bottle
>> itself, but to simply verify that it is safe using standard high pressure
>> bottle procedures.
>>
>> I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard aircraft
>> certification immediately and not Experimental. The actual issue might be
>> that in certain cases hydro testing stations will refuse to do the testing
>> due to the lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.
>>
>> In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to make such
>> decisions working with the A&P mechanic in due course of his aircraft's
>> maintenance.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 12:56 PM
>> To: yak-list
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>>
>> When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with rust and
>> gunk, and the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and Gear valves
>> and actuators, then you assume that the air system was NOT maintained
>> properly. So......I'm pulling all the diverters since they act like little
>> sediment traps, and rebuilding them all, AND I'm going to assume that all
>> this rust and gunk is throughout the air system. Which also means pulling
>> the air bottles cause who knows what shape they're in and is probably the
>> source of the rust. Log books say they were Hydro tested last year, but I
>> don't believe anything that was written by a particular mechanic for a Well
>> Known CJ importer/builder/seller, after some of the things I've found.
>>
>> Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an interesting point
>> yesterday. How in the world can we legally get these bottles Hydro Tested?
>> They're not DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm actually
>> considering just using Scuba bottles instead.
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
>> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>>
>>
>> WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read the
>> manual. Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly
>> "where" a very small amount is to be put in.
>>
>> As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban legend that
>> can usually be traced back to some previous owner saying "He did it all the
>> time", and if you go back still further, you can find it in the Yak List
>> Archives going back 12 years or so ago.
>>
>> There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but if that
>> action was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best course of action
>> would be to isolate the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and then
>> blowing it out with an inert gas such as nitrogen. I'd be very curious as
>> to how the pneumatic air lines in these aircraft would ever get to the
>> point of needing "flushing", especially if filters are maintained.
>>
>> That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid deterioration of
>> the seals used in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50. I know from very
>> close and up front personal experience in my aircraft after following that
>> advice from the YAK List recommendations, many many years ago which gave me
>> my first experience using Emergency Gear Blow Down.
>>
>> But it is not really quite as simple as that. A lot of this
>> issue has to do with the age of the seals, and whether they have been
>> replaced (actuators rebuilt) recently, and what material might have been
>> used with the new seals. Over time the original seals tend to harden. If
>> a seal such as this is exposed to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften
>> and then break apart. This is why some folks who have put this "stuff"
>> into their systems have seen immediate failure and others have not.
>>
>> In the end, I tend to stick with what the original manufacturer
>> of these aircraft recommended and let everyone else debate the wisdom of
>> putting a foreign substance into such a critical component as landing gear
>> actuators. A smart move might be to remove, rebuild, and then replace all
>> actuators on these aircraft on some type of scheduled basis, and not fly
>> them until failure.
>>
>> Mark Bitterlich
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 8:32 AM
>> To: yak-list
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>>
>> I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is
>> accurate. I'll just use castor oil to be safe.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Ernie,
>> As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool
>> oil.
>> Doc
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <
>> erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the
>> air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just
>> beyond the desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and
>> then empty a few scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear
>> and Flap handles.
>>
>> Thoughts???
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 3D============================================
>>
>> 3D============================================
>>
>> 3D============================================
>>
>> 3D============================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | Re: Air system Flush |
Mark,
In theory you are correct but if the CJ has suffered from neglect all bets
are off. Once the system becomes saturated with water, springs start to
rust, incorrect desiccant is sometime used which when wet it can cause
corrosion, miracle lubricants are use which attack the rubber, any and all
of these things when mixed with high pressure air can create a pretty nasty
concoction which can easily line the air lines. Rather alcohol will remove
it I do not know.
I have been toying with the idea of installing a second desiccant filter
just before the gear and flap valves. True won't solve the problem at hand
but might help to prevent the short life span of the gear and flap valves
which we are seeing currently.
Doug
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of internal
> corrosion on the bottles themselves.
>
> I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT approved".
> Nothing in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this country, hence the
> Experimental status of the aircraft, and the whole reason for "Conditional
> Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the aircraft is in a safe
> "condition" to fly for another year.
>
> It is true that various owners have replaced the original bottles with
> other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM parts. Regarding getting the
> stock bottles tested, my view boils down to the simple question of "should
> you get them tested or not get them tested"? The answer (to me) is an
> obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior inspected for
> corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify that it can hold recommended
> pressures safely. The goal is not to get a DOT certification of the bottle
> itself, but to simply verify that it is safe using standard high pressure
> bottle procedures.
>
> I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard aircraft
> certification immediately and not Experimental. The actual issue might be
> that in certain cases hydro testing stations will refuse to do the testing
> due to the lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.
>
> In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to make such
> decisions working with the A&P mechanic in due course of his aircraft's
> maintenance.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 12:56 PM
> To: yak-list
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with rust and gunk,
> and the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and Gear valves and
> actuators, then you assume that the air system was NOT maintained properly.
> So......I'm pulling all the diverters since they act like little sediment
> traps, and rebuilding them all, AND I'm going to assume that all this rust
> and gunk is throughout the air system. Which also means pulling the air
> bottles cause who knows what shape they're in and is probably the source of
> the rust. Log books say they were Hydro tested last year, but I don't
> believe anything that was written by a particular mechanic for a Well Known
> CJ importer/builder/seller, after some of the things I've found.
>
> Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an interesting point
> yesterday. How in the world can we legally get these bottles Hydro Tested?
> They're not DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm actually
> considering just using Scuba bottles instead.
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>
> WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read the
> manual. Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly
> "where" a very small amount is to be put in.
>
> As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban legend that
> can usually be traced back to some previous owner saying "He did it all the
> time", and if you go back still further, you can find it in the Yak List
> Archives going back 12 years or so ago.
>
> There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but if that
> action was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best course of action
> would be to isolate the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and then
> blowing it out with an inert gas such as nitrogen. I'd be very curious as
> to how the pneumatic air lines in these aircraft would ever get to the
> point of needing "flushing", especially if filters are maintained.
>
> That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid deterioration of
> the seals used in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50. I know from very
> close and up front personal experience in my aircraft after following that
> advice from the YAK List recommendations, many many years ago which gave me
> my first experience using Emergency Gear Blow Down.
>
> But it is not really quite as simple as that. A lot of this issue
> has to do with the age of the seals, and whether they have been replaced
> (actuators rebuilt) recently, and what material might have been used with
> the new seals. Over time the original seals tend to harden. If a seal
> such as this is exposed to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften and
> then break apart. This is why some folks who have put this "stuff" into
> their systems have seen immediate failure and others have not.
>
> In the end, I tend to stick with what the original manufacturer of
> these aircraft recommended and let everyone else debate the wisdom of
> putting a foreign substance into such a critical component as landing gear
> actuators. A smart move might be to remove, rebuild, and then replace all
> actuators on these aircraft on some type of scheduled basis, and not fly
> them until failure.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 8:32 AM
> To: yak-list
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is
> accurate. I'll just use castor oil to be safe.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Ernie,
> As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool oil.
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <
> erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the
> air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just
> beyond the desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and
> then empty a few scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear
> and Flap handles.
>
> Thoughts???
>
> Thanks
>
> Ernie
>
>
> 3D============================================
>
> 3D============================================
>
> 3D============================================
>
> 3D============================================
>
>
>
> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Air system Flush |
Doug,
I was considering your additional filter suggestion so I looked at the air
schematic, and don't see much to be gained putting it upstream of the Flap
and Gear handles. The current filter is only 1 check valve and 1 direct
line to the gear handle, and 2 check valves to the flap handle. If moisture
is the culprit, wouldn't a bigger desiccant filter be the better option OR,
a desiccant filter between the bottle and the main air valve? This way you
double dry the air before it gets to or from the bottle.
Ernie
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:44 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark,
> In theory you are correct but if the CJ has suffered from neglect all bets
> are off. Once the system becomes saturated with water, springs start to
> rust, incorrect desiccant is sometime used which when wet it can cause
> corrosion, miracle lubricants are use which attack the rubber, any and all
> of these things when mixed with high pressure air can create a pretty nasty
> concoction which can easily line the air lines. Rather alcohol will remove
> it I do not know.
>
> I have been toying with the idea of installing a second desiccant filter
> just before the gear and flap valves. True won't solve the problem at hand
> but might help to prevent the short life span of the gear and flap valves
> which we are seeing currently.
>
> Doug
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of internal
>> corrosion on the bottles themselves.
>>
>> I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT
>> approved". Nothing in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this country,
>> hence the Experimental status of the aircraft, and the whole reason for
>> "Conditional Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the aircraft
>> is in a safe "condition" to fly for another year.
>>
>> It is true that various owners have replaced the original bottles with
>> other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM parts. Regarding getting the
>> stock bottles tested, my view boils down to the simple question of "should
>> you get them tested or not get them tested"? The answer (to me) is an
>> obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior inspected for
>> corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify that it can hold recommended
>> pressures safely. The goal is not to get a DOT certification of the bottle
>> itself, but to simply verify that it is safe using standard high pressure
>> bottle procedures.
>>
>> I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard aircraft
>> certification immediately and not Experimental. The actual issue might be
>> that in certain cases hydro testing stations will refuse to do the testing
>> due to the lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.
>>
>> In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to make such
>> decisions working with the A&P mechanic in due course of his aircraft's
>> maintenance.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 12:56 PM
>> To: yak-list
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>>
>> When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with rust and
>> gunk, and the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and Gear valves
>> and actuators, then you assume that the air system was NOT maintained
>> properly. So......I'm pulling all the diverters since they act like little
>> sediment traps, and rebuilding them all, AND I'm going to assume that all
>> this rust and gunk is throughout the air system. Which also means pulling
>> the air bottles cause who knows what shape they're in and is probably the
>> source of the rust. Log books say they were Hydro tested last year, but I
>> don't believe anything that was written by a particular mechanic for a Well
>> Known CJ importer/builder/seller, after some of the things I've found.
>>
>> Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an interesting point
>> yesterday. How in the world can we legally get these bottles Hydro Tested?
>> They're not DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm actually
>> considering just using Scuba bottles instead.
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
>> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>>
>>
>> WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read the
>> manual. Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly
>> "where" a very small amount is to be put in.
>>
>> As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban legend that
>> can usually be traced back to some previous owner saying "He did it all the
>> time", and if you go back still further, you can find it in the Yak List
>> Archives going back 12 years or so ago.
>>
>> There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but if that
>> action was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best course of action
>> would be to isolate the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and then
>> blowing it out with an inert gas such as nitrogen. I'd be very curious as
>> to how the pneumatic air lines in these aircraft would ever get to the
>> point of needing "flushing", especially if filters are maintained.
>>
>> That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid deterioration of
>> the seals used in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50. I know from very
>> close and up front personal experience in my aircraft after following that
>> advice from the YAK List recommendations, many many years ago which gave me
>> my first experience using Emergency Gear Blow Down.
>>
>> But it is not really quite as simple as that. A lot of this
>> issue has to do with the age of the seals, and whether they have been
>> replaced (actuators rebuilt) recently, and what material might have been
>> used with the new seals. Over time the original seals tend to harden. If
>> a seal such as this is exposed to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften
>> and then break apart. This is why some folks who have put this "stuff"
>> into their systems have seen immediate failure and others have not.
>>
>> In the end, I tend to stick with what the original manufacturer
>> of these aircraft recommended and let everyone else debate the wisdom of
>> putting a foreign substance into such a critical component as landing gear
>> actuators. A smart move might be to remove, rebuild, and then replace all
>> actuators on these aircraft on some type of scheduled basis, and not fly
>> them until failure.
>>
>> Mark Bitterlich
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 8:32 AM
>> To: yak-list
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>>
>> I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is
>> accurate. I'll just use castor oil to be safe.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Ernie,
>> As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool
>> oil.
>> Doc
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <
>> erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the
>> air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just
>> beyond the desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and
>> then empty a few scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear
>> and Flap handles.
>>
>> Thoughts???
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 3D============================================
>>
>> 3D============================================
>>
>> 3D============================================
>>
>> 3D============================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Air system Flush |
Thanks Doug, I agree whole-heartedly. That said, how to clean out the lines?
I don't think you can "flush the system" as one complete unit. You'd pretty
much have to blow the lines out individually, inspect and clean each part one
at a time, and basically rebuild the entire system.
I have zero experience with the CJ's gear and flap valves, but appreciate your
issue.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
Mark,
In theory you are correct but if the CJ has suffered from neglect all bets are
off. Once the system becomes saturated with water, springs start to rust, incorrect
desiccant is sometime used which when wet it can cause corrosion, miracle
lubricants are use which attack the rubber, any and all of these things when
mixed with high pressure air can create a pretty nasty concoction which can
easily line the air lines. Rather alcohol will remove it I do not know.
I have been toying with the idea of installing a second desiccant filter just before
the gear and flap valves. True won't solve the problem at hand but might
help to prevent the short life span of the gear and flap valves which we are
seeing currently.
Doug
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
wrote:
You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of internal corrosion
on the bottles themselves.
I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT approved".
Nothing in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this country, hence the Experimental
status of the aircraft, and the whole reason for "Conditional Inspections",
which basically say to the FAA that the aircraft is in a safe "condition"
to fly for another year.
It is true that various owners have replaced the original bottles with
other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM parts. Regarding getting the stock
bottles tested, my view boils down to the simple question of "should you get
them tested or not get them tested"? The answer (to me) is an obvious "yes",
in that the bottle is removed, the interior inspected for corrosion, and the
bottle is tested to verify that it can hold recommended pressures safely.
The goal is not to get a DOT certification of the bottle itself, but to simply
verify that it is safe using standard high pressure bottle procedures.
I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard aircraft certification
immediately and not Experimental. The actual issue might be that in
certain cases hydro testing stations will refuse to do the testing due to the
lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.
In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to make such
decisions working with the A&P mechanic in due course of his aircraft's maintenance.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 12:56 PM
To: yak-list
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with rust and gunk,
and the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and Gear valves and actuators,
then you assume that the air system was NOT maintained properly. So......I'm
pulling all the diverters since they act like little sediment traps, and
rebuilding them all, AND I'm going to assume that all this rust and gunk is
throughout the air system. Which also means pulling the air bottles cause who
knows what shape they're in and is probably the source of the rust. Log books
say they were Hydro tested last year, but I don't believe anything that was written
by a particular mechanic for a Well Known CJ importer/builder/seller, after
some of the things I've found.
Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an interesting point
yesterday. How in the world can we legally get these bottles Hydro Tested? They're
not DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm actually considering just
using Scuba bottles instead.
Ernie
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
wrote:
As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read the manual.
Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly "where" a
very small amount is to be put in.
As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban legend that
can usually be traced back to some previous owner saying "He did it all the
time", and if you go back still further, you can find it in the Yak List Archives
going back 12 years or so ago.
There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but if that
action was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best course of action
would be to isolate the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and then blowing
it out with an inert gas such as nitrogen. I'd be very curious as to how the
pneumatic air lines in these aircraft would ever get to the point of needing
"flushing", especially if filters are maintained.
That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid deterioration
of the seals used in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50. I know from very
close and up front personal experience in my aircraft after following that advice
from the YAK List recommendations, many many years ago which gave me my first
experience using Emergency Gear Blow Down.
But it is not really quite as simple as that. A lot of this issue
has to do with the age of the seals, and whether they have been replaced (actuators
rebuilt) recently, and what material might have been used with the new
seals. Over time the original seals tend to harden. If a seal such as this
is exposed to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften and then break apart.
This is why some folks who have put this "stuff" into their systems have seen
immediate failure and others have not.
In the end, I tend to stick with what the original manufacturer
of these aircraft recommended and let everyone else debate the wisdom of putting
a foreign substance into such a critical component as landing gear actuators.
A smart move might be to remove, rebuild, and then replace all actuators
on these aircraft on some type of scheduled basis, and not fly them until failure.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 8:32 AM
To: yak-list
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is accurate.
I'll just use castor oil to be safe.
Thanks
Ernie
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com>
wrote:
Ernie,
As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool
oil.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
wrote:
Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the
air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just beyond
the desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and then empty
a few scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear and Flap
handles.
Thoughts???
Thanks
Ernie
3D============================================
3D============================================
3D============================================
3D============================================
List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
==========
FORUMS -
_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
==========
List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
==========
FORUMS -
_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Re: Air system Flush |
Has been done. Check with Dee Conger (sp possibly).
Doc
Sent from my iPad
> On Aug 25, 2014, at 11:55 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with rust and gunk,
and the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and Gear valves and act
uators, then you assume that the air system was NOT maintained properly. So.
.....I'm pulling all the diverters since they act like little sediment traps
, and rebuilding them all, AND I'm going to assume that all this rust and gu
nk is throughout the air system. Which also means pulling the air bottles ca
use who knows what shape they're in and is probably the source of the rust. L
og books say they were Hydro tested last year, but I don't believe anything t
hat was written by a particular mechanic for a Well Known CJ importer/builde
r/seller, after some of the things I've found.
>
> Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an interesting point yes
terday. How in the world can we legally get these bottles Hydro Tested? They
're not DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm actually considering j
ust using Scuba bottles instead.
>
> Ernie
>
>
>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark
.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read the manual. T
ask cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly "where" a very sma
ll amount is to be put in.
>>
>> As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban legend that can usua
lly be traced back to some previous owner saying "He did it all the time", a
nd if you go back still further, you can find it in the Yak List Archives go
ing back 12 years or so ago.
>>
>> There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but if that action w
as deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best course of action would be t
o isolate the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and then blowing it out
with an inert gas such as nitrogen. I'd be very curious as to how the pneu
matic air lines in these aircraft would ever get to the point of needing "fl
ushing", especially if filters are maintained.
>>
>> That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid deterioration of the sea
ls used in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50. I know from very close a
nd up front personal experience in my aircraft after following that advice f
rom the YAK List recommendations, many many years ago which gave me my first
experience using Emergency Gear Blow Down.
>>
>> But it is not really quite as simple as that. A lot of this issue has to
do with the age of the seals, and whether they have been replaced (actuator
s rebuilt) recently, and what material might have been used with the new sea
ls. Over time the original seals tend to harden. If a seal such as this i
s exposed to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften and then break apart.
This is why some folks who have put this "stuff" into their systems have s
een immediate failure and others have not.
>>
>> In the end, I tend to stick with what the original manufacturer of these a
ircraft recommended and let everyone else debate the wisdom of putting a for
eign substance into such a critical component as landing gear actuators. A
smart move might be to remove, rebuild, and then replace all actuators on t
hese aircraft on some type of scheduled basis, and not fly them until failur
e.
>>
>> Mark Bitterlich
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 8:32 AM
>> To: yak-list
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>>
>> I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is accurate. I'
ll just use castor oil to be safe.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Ernie,
>> As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool oil.
>> Doc
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the air lines
of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just beyond the
desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and then empty a f
ew scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear and Flap handl
es.
>>
>> Thoughts???
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D
>> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D
>> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D
>> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Re: Air system Flush |
Actually, provided that the flow restricters don't get plugged. If you
remove all the diverters and disconnect the brake connections at the
wheels, you blow the entire system using a continuous source of air at the
charging port and just exercise the flap and gear handles. This would flush
about 95% of the system. I would inject alcohol/castor oil upstream of the
desiccant filter though.
Ernie
On Monday, August 25, 2014, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <javascript:;>>
>
> Thanks Doug, I agree whole-heartedly. That said, how to clean out the
> lines? I don't think you can "flush the system" as one complete unit.
> You'd pretty much have to blow the lines out individually, inspect and
> clean each part one at a time, and basically rebuild the entire system.
>
> I have zero experience with the CJ's gear and flap valves, but appreciate
> your issue.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <javascript:;> [mailto:
> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <javascript:;>] On Behalf Of doug sapp
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 1:44 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com <javascript:;>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> Mark,
> In theory you are correct but if the CJ has suffered from neglect all bets
> are off. Once the system becomes saturated with water, springs start to
> rust, incorrect desiccant is sometime used which when wet it can cause
> corrosion, miracle lubricants are use which attack the rubber, any and all
> of these things when mixed with high pressure air can create a pretty nasty
> concoction which can easily line the air lines. Rather alcohol will remove
> it I do not know.
>
> I have been toying with the idea of installing a second desiccant filter
> just before the gear and flap valves. True won't solve the problem at hand
> but might help to prevent the short life span of the gear and flap valves
> which we are seeing currently.
>
> Doug
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <javascript:;>> wrote:
>
>
> WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <javascript:;>>
>
>
> You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of internal
> corrosion on the bottles themselves.
>
> I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT
> approved". Nothing in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this country,
> hence the Experimental status of the aircraft, and the whole reason for
> "Conditional Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the aircraft
> is in a safe "condition" to fly for another year.
>
> It is true that various owners have replaced the original bottles
> with other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM parts. Regarding getting
> the stock bottles tested, my view boils down to the simple question of
> "should you get them tested or not get them tested"? The answer (to me)
> is an obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior inspected
> for corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify that it can hold
> recommended pressures safely. The goal is not to get a DOT certification
> of the bottle itself, but to simply verify that it is safe using standard
> high pressure bottle procedures.
>
> I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard
> aircraft certification immediately and not Experimental. The actual issue
> might be that in certain cases hydro testing stations will refuse to do the
> testing due to the lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.
>
> In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to
> make such decisions working with the A&P mechanic in due course of his
> aircraft's maintenance.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <javascript:;> [mailto:
> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <javascript:;>] On Behalf Of Ernest
> Martinez
>
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 12:56 PM
> To: yak-list
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with rust
> and gunk, and the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and Gear
> valves and actuators, then you assume that the air system was NOT
> maintained properly. So......I'm pulling all the diverters since they act
> like little sediment traps, and rebuilding them all, AND I'm going to
> assume that all this rust and gunk is throughout the air system. Which also
> means pulling the air bottles cause who knows what shape they're in and is
> probably the source of the rust. Log books say they were Hydro tested last
> year, but I don't believe anything that was written by a particular
> mechanic for a Well Known CJ importer/builder/seller, after some of the
> things I've found.
>
> Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an interesting
> point yesterday. How in the world can we legally get these bottles Hydro
> Tested? They're not DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm actually
> considering just using Scuba bottles instead.
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR,
> WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <javascript:;>> wrote:
>
>
> NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <javascript:;>>
>
> As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read
> the manual. Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly
> "where" a very small amount is to be put in.
>
> As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban
> legend that can usually be traced back to some previous owner saying "He
> did it all the time", and if you go back still further, you can find it in
> the Yak List Archives going back 12 years or so ago.
>
> There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but
> if that action was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best course of
> action would be to isolate the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and
> then blowing it out with an inert gas such as nitrogen. I'd be very
> curious as to how the pneumatic air lines in these aircraft would ever get
> to the point of needing "flushing", especially if filters are maintained.
>
> That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid
> deterioration of the seals used in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50.
> I know from very close and up front personal experience in my aircraft
> after following that advice from the YAK List recommendations, many many
> years ago which gave me my first experience using Emergency Gear Blow Down.
>
> But it is not really quite as simple as that. A lot of
> this issue has to do with the age of the seals, and whether they have been
> replaced (actuators rebuilt) recently, and what material might have been
> used with the new seals. Over time the original seals tend to harden. If
> a seal such as this is exposed to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften
> and then break apart. This is why some folks who have put this "stuff"
> into their systems have seen immediate failure and others have not.
>
> In the end, I tend to stick with what the original
> manufacturer of these aircraft recommended and let everyone else debate the
> wisdom of putting a foreign substance into such a critical component as
> landing gear actuators. A smart move might be to remove, rebuild, and
> then replace all actuators on these aircraft on some type of scheduled
> basis, and not fly them until failure.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <javascript:;>
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <javascript:;>] On Behalf Of
> Ernest Martinez
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 8:32 AM
> To: yak-list
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what
> is accurate. I'll just use castor oil to be safe.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <
> f16viperdoc@me.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
>
>
> Ernie,
> As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like
> tool oil.
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <
> erniel29@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
>
>
> Anyone have any suggestions on flushing
> out the air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool
> oil just beyond the desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the
> actuators and then empty a few scuba bottles through the systems while
> actuating the Gear and Flap handles.
>
> Thoughts???
>
> Thanks
>
> Ernie
>
>
> 3D============================================
>
> 3D============================================
>
> 3D============================================
>
> 3D============================================
>
>
>
> List" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> ==========
> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Re: Air system Flush |
Mark,
After buying my CJ, I began the methodical process of going through the
pneumatic system. The actuators were not disassembled and have since
been replaced, thanks to your advice. I looked at the check valves,
emergency valves, gear valves and flap valves. What I found was amazing.
Attached is a representative picture of a firewall check valve. Some
springs were completely dissolved and the gear and flap valves looked
like they were coated in a combination of sand and chocolate pudding. As
you point out, all bets are off for a system that is not properly cared
for.
Even though corrosion within the pneumatic system may not always be
symptomatic, it can still be impressive and pervasive. If you see one
valve that looks bad, chances are good that others are similar.
Warren Hill
N464TW
Mesa, AZ
On Aug 25, 2014, at 11:27 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Thanks Doug, I agree whole-heartedly. That said, how to clean out the
lines? I don't think you can "flush the system" as one complete unit.
You'd pretty much have to blow the lines out individually, inspect and
clean each part one at a time, and basically rebuild the entire system.
>
> I have zero experience with the CJ's gear and flap valves, but
appreciate your issue.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 1:44 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> Mark,
> In theory you are correct but if the CJ has suffered from neglect all
bets are off. Once the system becomes saturated with water, springs
start to rust, incorrect desiccant is sometime used which when wet it
can cause corrosion, miracle lubricants are use which attack the rubber,
any and all of these things when mixed with high pressure air can create
a pretty nasty concoction which can easily line the air lines. Rather
alcohol will remove it I do not know.
>
> I have been toying with the idea of installing a second desiccant
filter just before the gear and flap valves. True won't solve the
problem at hand but might help to prevent the short life span of the
gear and flap valves which we are seeing currently.
>
> Doug
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>
WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of
internal corrosion on the bottles themselves.
>
> I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT
approved". Nothing in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this
country, hence the Experimental status of the aircraft, and the whole
reason for "Conditional Inspections", which basically say to the FAA
that the aircraft is in a safe "condition" to fly for another year.
>
> It is true that various owners have replaced the original
bottles with other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM parts.
Regarding getting the stock bottles tested, my view boils down to the
simple question of "should you get them tested or not get them tested"?
The answer (to me) is an obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed,
the interior inspected for corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify
that it can hold recommended pressures safely. The goal is not to get a
DOT certification of the bottle itself, but to simply verify that it is
safe using standard high pressure bottle procedures.
>
> I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard
aircraft certification immediately and not Experimental. The actual
issue might be that in certain cases hydro testing stations will refuse
to do the testing due to the lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.
>
> In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to
make such decisions working with the A&P mechanic in due course of his
aircraft's maintenance.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest
Martinez
>
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 12:56 PM
> To: yak-list
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with
rust and gunk, and the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and
Gear valves and actuators, then you assume that the air system was NOT
maintained properly. So......I'm pulling all the diverters since they
act like little sediment traps, and rebuilding them all, AND I'm going
to assume that all this rust and gunk is throughout the air system.
Which also means pulling the air bottles cause who knows what shape
they're in and is probably the source of the rust. Log books say they
were Hydro tested last year, but I don't believe anything that was
written by a particular mechanic for a Well Known CJ
importer/builder/seller, after some of the things I've found.
>
> Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an
interesting point yesterday. How in the world can we legally get these
bottles Hydro Tested? They're not DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing
something. I'm actually considering just using Scuba bottles instead.
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV
NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>
NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails
read the manual. Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and
exactly "where" a very small amount is to be put in.
>
> As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban
legend that can usually be traced back to some previous owner saying "He
did it all the time", and if you go back still further, you can find it
in the Yak List Archives going back 12 years or so ago.
>
> There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out",
but if that action was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best
course of action would be to isolate the line by disconnecting it at
both ends, and then blowing it out with an inert gas such as nitrogen.
I'd be very curious as to how the pneumatic air lines in these aircraft
would ever get to the point of needing "flushing", especially if filters
are maintained.
>
> That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid
deterioration of the seals used in the landing gear actuators of a
YAK-50. I know from very close and up front personal experience in my
aircraft after following that advice from the YAK List recommendations,
many many years ago which gave me my first experience using Emergency
Gear Blow Down.
>
> But it is not really quite as simple as that. A lot of
this issue has to do with the age of the seals, and whether they have
been replaced (actuators rebuilt) recently, and what material might have
been used with the new seals. Over time the original seals tend to
harden. If a seal such as this is exposed to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the
seals will soften and then break apart. This is why some folks who have
put this "stuff" into their systems have seen immediate failure and
others have not.
>
> In the end, I tend to stick with what the original
manufacturer of these aircraft recommended and let everyone else debate
the wisdom of putting a foreign substance into such a critical component
as landing gear actuators. A smart move might be to remove, rebuild,
and then replace all actuators on these aircraft on some type of
scheduled basis, and not fly them until failure.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest
Martinez
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 8:32 AM
> To: yak-list
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure
what is accurate. I'll just use castor oil to be safe.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp
<f16viperdoc@me.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ernie,
> As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not
like tool oil.
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez
<erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Anyone have any suggestions on flushing
out the air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little
tool oil just beyond the desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the
actuators and then empty a few scuba bottles through the systems while
actuating the Gear and Flap handles.
>
> Thoughts???
>
> Thanks
>
> Ernie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
> List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Warren E. Hill, MD, FACS
East Valley Ophthalmology
5620 East Broadway Road
Mesa, AZ 85206
hill@doctor-hill.com
www.doctor-hill.com
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Re: Air system Flush |
Whoa!!!! that looks like it fell in a landfill!
Ernie
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Warren Hill <k7wx@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Mark,
>
> After buying my CJ, I began the methodical process of going through the
> pneumatic system. The actuators were not disassembled and have since been
> replaced, thanks to your advice. I looked at the check valves, emergency
> valves, gear valves and flap valves. What I found was amazing. Attached is
> a representative picture of a firewall check valve. Some springs were
> completely dissolved and the gear and flap valves looked like they were
> coated in a combination of sand and chocolate pudding. As you point out,
> all bets are off for a system that is not properly cared for.
>
> Even though corrosion within the pneumatic system may not always be
> symptomatic, it can still be impressive and pervasive. If you see one valve
> that looks bad, chances are good that others are similar.
>
> Warren Hill
> N464TW
> Mesa, AZ
>
>
> On Aug 25, 2014, at 11:27 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Thanks Doug, I agree whole-heartedly. That said, how to clean out the
> lines? I don't think you can "flush the system" as one complete unit.
> You'd pretty much have to blow the lines out individually, inspect and
> clean each part one at a time, and basically rebuild the entire system.
>
> I have zero experience with the CJ's gear and flap valves, but appreciate
> your issue.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [
> mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of doug sapp
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 1:44 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> Mark,
> In theory you are correct but if the CJ has suffered from neglect all bets
> are off. Once the system becomes saturated with water, springs start to
> rust, incorrect desiccant is sometime used which when wet it can cause
> corrosion, miracle lubricants are use which attack the rubber, any and all
> of these things when mixed with high pressure air can create a pretty nasty
> concoction which can easily line the air lines. Rather alcohol will remove
> it I do not know.
>
> I have been toying with the idea of installing a second desiccant filter
> just before the gear and flap valves. True won't solve the problem at hand
> but might help to prevent the short life span of the gear and flap valves
> which we are seeing currently.
>
> Doug
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>
> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of internal
> corrosion on the bottles themselves.
>
> I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT
> approved". Nothing in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this country,
> hence the Experimental status of the aircraft, and the whole reason for
> "Conditional Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the aircraft
> is in a safe "condition" to fly for another year.
>
> It is true that various owners have replaced the original bottles
> with other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM parts. Regarding getting
> the stock bottles tested, my view boils down to the simple question of
> "should you get them tested or not get them tested"? The answer (to me)
> is an obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior inspected
> for corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify that it can hold
> recommended pressures safely. The goal is not to get a DOT certification
> of the bottle itself, but to simply verify that it is safe using standard
> high pressure bottle procedures.
>
> I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard aircraft
> certification immediately and not Experimental. The actual issue might be
> that in certain cases hydro testing stations will refuse to do the testing
> due to the lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.
>
> In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to make
> such decisions working with the A&P mechanic in due course of his
> aircraft's maintenance.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [
> mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
>
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 12:56 PM
>
> To: yak-list
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with rust
> and gunk, and the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and Gear
> valves and actuators, then you assume that the air system was NOT
> maintained properly. So......I'm pulling all the diverters since they act
> like little sediment traps, and rebuilding them all, AND I'm going to
> assume that all this rust and gunk is throughout the air system. Which also
> means pulling the air bottles cause who knows what shape they're in and is
> probably the source of the rust. Log books say they were Hydro tested last
> year, but I don't believe anything that was written by a particular
> mechanic for a Well Known CJ importer/builder/seller, after some of the
> things I've found.
>
> Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an interesting
> point yesterday. How in the world can we legally get these bottles Hydro
> Tested? They're not DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm actually
> considering just using Scuba bottles instead.
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>
> NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read
> the manual. Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly
> "where" a very small amount is to be put in.
>
> As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban legend
> that can usually be traced back to some previous owner saying "He did it
> all the time", and if you go back still further, you can find it in the Yak
> List Archives going back 12 years or so ago.
>
> There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but
> if that action was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best course of
> action would be to isolate the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and
> then blowing it out with an inert gas such as nitrogen. I'd be very
> curious as to how the pneumatic air lines in these aircraft would ever get
> to the point of needing "flushing", especially if filters are maintained.
>
> That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid
> deterioration of the seals used in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50.
> I know from very close and up front personal experience in my aircraft
> after following that advice from the YAK List recommendations, many many
> years ago which gave me my first experience using Emergency Gear Blow Down.
>
> But it is not really quite as simple as that. A lot of
> this issue has to do with the age of the seals, and whether they have been
> replaced (actuators rebuilt) recently, and what material might have been
> used with the new seals. Over time the original seals tend to harden. If
> a seal such as this is exposed to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften
> and then break apart. This is why some folks who have put this "stuff"
> into their systems have seen immediate failure and others have not.
>
> In the end, I tend to stick with what the original
> manufacturer of these aircraft recommended and let everyone else debate the
> wisdom of putting a foreign substance into such a critical component as
> landing gear actuators. A smart move might be to remove, rebuild, and
> then replace all actuators on these aircraft on some type of scheduled
> basis, and not fly them until failure.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [
> mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 8:32 AM
> To: yak-list
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>
> I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what
> is accurate. I'll just use castor oil to be safe.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <
> f16viperdoc@me.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ernie,
> As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like
> tool oil.
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <
> erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out
> the air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil
> just beyond the desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators
> and then empty a few scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the
> Gear and Flap handles.
>
> Thoughts???
>
> Thanks
>
> Ernie
>
>
> 3D============================================
>
> 3D============================================
>
> 3D============================================
>
> 3D============================================
>
>
>
> List" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> ==========
>
> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> http://www.matronics.=======================
> http://www.matronics.com/co================
>
>
> Warren E. Hill, MD, FACS
> East Valley Ophthalmology
> 5620 East Broadway Road
> Mesa, AZ 85206
>
> hill@doctor-hill.com
> www.doctor-hill.com
>
>
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: Air system Flush |
I have had my air bottles hydro checked by Jill and Carl at M-14P. They hav
e a Way of doing it. Gary Gbbard. LAS. N22YK.
Sent from my iPad
> On Aug 25, 2014, at 10:40, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Dennis,
>
> Currently looking for someone locally. Also perusing the archives for the s
ize of the bottle fitting, unless someone already knows that off hand :)
>
>
>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:32 PM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellso
uth.net> wrote:
>> Call Doug. He can give you the name of the company that cleans and tests
the bottles for the CJ. You can also call Jill at M14P and she can have th
e bottles tested. I'm certain neither requires DOT approval.
>> Dennis
>> A. Dennis Savarese
>> 334-285-6263
>> 334-546-8182 (mobile)
>> www.yak-52.com
>> Skype - Yakguy1
>>> On 8/25/2014 12:24 PM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
>>> I have been enlightened through back channels of DOT approved hydro test
ers on the bottles.
>>>
>>> Ernie
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mar
k.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
rk.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>>
>>>> You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of internal corr
osion on the bottles themselves.
>>>>
>>>> I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT approved
". Nothing in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this country, hence the
Experimental status of the aircraft, and the whole reason for "Conditional I
nspections", which basically say to the FAA that the aircraft is in a safe "
condition" to fly for another year.
>>>>
>>>> It is true that various owners have replaced the original bottles with o
ther designs, usually due to a lack of OEM parts. Regarding getting the st
ock bottles tested, my view boils down to the simple question of "should you
get them tested or not get them tested"? The answer (to me) is an obviou
s "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior inspected for corrosion
, and the bottle is tested to verify that it can hold recommended pressures s
afely. The goal is not to get a DOT certification of the bottle itself, but
to simply verify that it is safe using standard high pressure bottle proced
ures.
>>>>
>>>> I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard aircraft cer
tification immediately and not Experimental. The actual issue might be that
in certain cases hydro testing stations will refuse to do the testing due t
o the lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.
>>>>
>>>> In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to make suc
h decisions working with the A&P mechanic in due course of his aircraft's ma
intenance.
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server
@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 12:56 PM
>>>> To: yak-list
>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>>>>
>>>> When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with rust and gu
nk, and the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and Gear valves and a
ctuators, then you assume that the air system was NOT maintained properly. S
o......I'm pulling all the diverters since they act like little sediment tra
ps, and rebuilding them all, AND I'm going to assume that all this rust and g
unk is throughout the air system. Which also means pulling the air bottles c
ause who knows what shape they're in and is probably the source of the rust.
Log books say they were Hydro tested last year, but I don't believe anythin
g that was written by a particular mechanic for a Well Known CJ importer/bui
lder/seller, after some of the things I've found.
>>>>
>>>> Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an interesting point y
esterday. How in the world can we legally get these bottles Hydro Tested? Th
ey're not DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm actually considerin
g just using Scuba bottles instead.
>>>>
>>>> Ernie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <ma
rk.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>>
>>>> As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read the m
anual. Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly "where" a
very small amount is to be put in.
>>>>
>>>> As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban legend tha
t can usually be traced back to some previous owner saying "He did it all th
e time", and if you go back still further, you can find it in the Yak List A
rchives going back 12 years or so ago.
>>>>
>>>> There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but if th
at action was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best course of actio
n would be to isolate the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and then bl
owing it out with an inert gas such as nitrogen. I'd be very curious as to h
ow the pneumatic air lines in these aircraft would ever get to the point of n
eeding "flushing", especially if filters are maintained.
>>>>
>>>> That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid deterioration o
f the seals used in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50. I know from ver
y close and up front personal experience in my aircraft after following that
advice from the YAK List recommendations, many many years ago which gave me
my first experience using Emergency Gear Blow Down.
>>>>
>>>> But it is not really quite as simple as that. A lot of this is
sue has to do with the age of the seals, and whether they have been replaced
(actuators rebuilt) recently, and what material might have been used with t
he new seals. Over time the original seals tend to harden. If a seal such
as this is exposed to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften and then br
eak apart. This is why some folks who have put this "stuff" into their syst
ems have seen immediate failure and others have not.
>>>>
>>>> In the end, I tend to stick with what the original manufacturer
of these aircraft recommended and let everyone else debate the wisdom of pu
tting a foreign substance into such a critical component as landing gear act
uators. A smart move might be to remove, rebuild, and then replace all act
uators on these aircraft on some type of scheduled basis, and not fly them u
ntil failure.
>>>>
>>>> Mark Bitterlich
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 8:32 AM
>>>> To: yak-list
>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>>>>
>>>> I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is ac
curate. I'll just use castor oil to be safe.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Ernie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.co
m> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ernie,
>>>> As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool o
il.
>>>> Doc
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@
gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the
air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just b
eyond the desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and then
empty a few scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear and
Flap handles.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts???
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Ernie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-
List
>>>> ==========
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> b Site -
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>>> ==========
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> b Site -
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
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| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
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|
| Subject: | Re: Air system Flush |
By a place in LA. Have to dig back through my notes. I have the contact info
in some of my junk. Working on a place in Ga. That will do it also since th
ey do not have to carry a DZoZt cert.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
> On Aug 25, 2014, at 4:10 PM, Gary Gabbard <ggg6@att.net> wrote:
>
> I have had my air bottles hydro checked by Jill and Carl at M-14P. They h
ave a Way of doing it. Gary Gbbard. LAS. N22YK.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Aug 25, 2014, at 10:40, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Dennis,
>>
>> Currently looking for someone locally. Also perusing the archives for the
size of the bottle fitting, unless someone already knows that off hand :)
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:32 PM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bells
outh.net> wrote:
>>> Call Doug. He can give you the name of the company that cleans and test
s the bottles for the CJ. You can also call Jill at M14P and she can have t
he bottles tested. I'm certain neither requires DOT approval.
>>> Dennis
>>> A. Dennis Savarese
>>> 334-285-6263
>>> 334-546-8182 (mobile)
>>> www.yak-52.com
>>> Skype - Yakguy1
>>>> On 8/25/2014 12:24 PM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
>>>> I have been enlightened through back channels of DOT approved hydro tes
ters on the bottles.
>>>>
>>>> Ernie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <ma
rk.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
ark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>>>
>>>>> You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of internal cor
rosion on the bottles themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT approve
d". Nothing in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this country, hence th
e Experimental status of the aircraft, and the whole reason for "Conditional
Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the aircraft is in a safe
"condition" to fly for another year.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is true that various owners have replaced the original bottles with
other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM parts. Regarding getting the s
tock bottles tested, my view boils down to the simple question o
f "should you get them tested or not get them tested"? The answer (to me)
is an obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior inspected f
or corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify that it can hold recommende
d pressures safely. The goal is not to get a DOT certification of the bottl
e itself, but to simply verify that it is safe using standard high pressure b
ottle procedures.
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard aircraft ce
rtification immediately and not Experimental. The actual issue might be tha
t in certain cases hydro testing stations will refuse to do the t
esting due to the lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to make su
ch decisions working with the A&P mechanic in due course of his aircraft's m
aintenance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-serve
r@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 12:56 PM
>>>>> To: yak-list
>>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>>>>>
>>>>> When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with rust and g
unk, and the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and Gear valves and
actuators, then you assume that the air system was NOT maintained properly.
So......I'm pulling all the diverters since they act like little sediment t
raps, and rebuilding them all, AND I'm going to assume that all this rust an
d gunk is throughout the air system. Which also means pulling the air bottle
s cause who knows what shape they're in and is probably the source of the ru
st. Log books say they were Hydro tested last year, but I don't believe anyt
hing that was written by a particular mechanic for a Well Known CJ importer/
builder/seller, after some of the things I've found.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an interesting point
yesterday. How in the world can we legally get these bottles Hydro Tested? T
hey're not DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm actually consideri
ng just using Scuba bottles instead.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ernie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <m
ark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>>>
>>>>> As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read the m
anual. Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly "where" a
very small amount is to be put in.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban legend th
at can usually be traced back to some previous owner saying "He did it all t
he time", and if you go back still further, you can find it in the Yak List A
rchives going back 12 years or so ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but if t
hat action was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best course of acti
on would be to isolate the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and then b
lowing it out with an inert gas such as nitrogen. I'd be ve
ry curious as to how the pneumatic air lines in these aircraft would ever ge
t to the point of needing "flushing", especially if filters are maintained.
>>>>>
>>>>> That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid deterioration
of the seals used in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50. I know from v
ery close and up front personal experience in my aircraft after following th
at advice from the YAK List recommendations, many many years ago which gave m
e my first experience using Emergency Gear Blow Down.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it is not really quite as simple as that. A lot of this i
ssue has to do with the age of the seals, and whether they have been replace
d (actuators rebuilt) recently, and what material might have been used with t
he new seals. Over time the original seals tend to harden. If a seal such
as this is exposed to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften and then br
eak apart. This is why some folks who have put this "stuff" into their syst
ems have seen immediate failure and others have not.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the end, I tend to stick with what the original manufacture
r of these aircraft recommended and let everyone else debate the wisdom of p
utting a foreign substance into such a critical component as landing gear ac
tuators. A smart move might be to remove, rebuild, and then replace all ac
tuators on these aircraft on some type of scheduled basis, and not fly them u
ntil failure.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark Bitterlich
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-li
st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 8:32 AM
>>>>> To: yak-list
>>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is a
ccurate. I'll just use castor oil to be safe.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Ernie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.c
om> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ernie,
>>>>> As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool
oil.
>>>>> Doc
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29
@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out th
e air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just
beyond the desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and th
en empty a few scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear an
d Flap handles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts???
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Ernie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>>> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>>> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>>> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak
-List
>>>>> ==========
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>>>>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
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>>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>> ==========
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ==========
>>>>> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>>>> ==========
>>>>> FORUMS -
>>>>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>> ==========
>>>>> b Site -
>>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>
>
>
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Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Air system Flush |
Apple what a trip! DOT.
DOC
Sent from my iPad
> On Aug 25, 2014, at 9:59 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com> wrote:
>
> By a place in LA. Have to dig back through my notes. I have the contact in
fo in some of my junk. Working on a place in Ga. That will do it also since t
hey do not have to carry a DZoZt cert.
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Aug 25, 2014, at 4:10 PM, Gary Gabbard <ggg6@att.net> wrote:
>>
>> I have had my air bottles hydro checked by Jill and Carl at M-14P. They h
ave a Way of doing it. Gary Gbbard. LAS. N22YK.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Aug 25, 2014, at 10:40, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Dennis,
>>>
>>> Currently looking for someone locally. Also perusing the archives for th
e size of the bottle fitting, unless someone already knows that off hand :)
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:32 PM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bell
south.net> wrote:
>>>> Call Doug. He can give you the name of the company that cleans and tes
ts the bottles for the CJ. You can also call Jill at M14P and she can have t
he bottles tested. I'm certain neither requires DOT approval.
>>>> Dennis
>>>> A. Dennis Savarese
>>>> 334-285-6263
>>>> 334-546-8182 (mobile)
>>>> www.yak-52.com
>>>> Skype - Yakguy1
>>>>> On 8/25/2014 12:24 PM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
>>>>> I have been enlightened through back channels of DOT approved hydro te
sters on the bottles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ernie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <m
ark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of internal co
rrosion on the bottles themselves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT approv
ed". Nothing in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this country, hence t
he Experimental status of the aircraft, and the whole reason for "Conditiona
l Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the aircraft is in a saf
e "condition" to fly for another year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is true that various owners have replaced the original bottles wit
h other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM parts. Regarding getting the
stock bottles tested, my view boils down to the simple question of "should y
ou get them tested or not get them tested"? The answer (to me) is an obvi
ous "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior inspected for corrosi
on, and the bottle is tested to verify that it can hold recommended pressure
s safely. The goal is not to get a DOT certification of the bottle itself, b
ut to simply verify that it is safe using standard high pressure bottle proc
edures.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard aircraft c
ertification immediately and not Experimental. The actual issue might be th
at in certain cases hydro testing stations will refuse to do the testing due
to the lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to make s
uch decisions working with the A&P mechanic in due course of his aircraft's m
aintenance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 12:56 PM
>>>>>> To: yak-list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with rust and g
unk, and the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and Gear valves and
actuators, then you assume that the air system was NOT maintained properly.
So......I'm pulling all the diverters since they act like little sediment t
raps, and rebuilding them all, AND I'm going to assume that all this rust an
d gunk is throughout the air system. Which also means pulling the air bottle
s cause who knows what shape they're in and is probably the source of the ru
st. Log books say they were Hydro tested last year, but I don't believe anyt
hing that was written by a particular mechanic for a Well Known CJ importer/
builder/seller, after some of the things I've found.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an interesting poin
t yesterday. How in the world can we legally get these bottles Hydro Tested?
They're not DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm actually conside
ring just using Scuba bottles instead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ernie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
R, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read the
manual. Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly "where
" a very small amount is to be put in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban legend t
hat can usually be traced back to some previous owner saying "He did it all t
he time", and if you go back still further, you can find it in the Yak List A
rchives going back 12 years or so ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but if t
hat action was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best course of acti
on would be to isolate the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and then b
lowing it out with an inert gas such as nitrogen. I'd be very curious as to
how the pneumatic air lines in these aircraft would ever get to the point o
f needing "flushing", especially if filters are maintained.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid deterioratio
n of the seals used in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50. I know from v
ery close and up front personal experience in my aircraft after following th
at advice from the YAK List recommendations, many many years ago which gave m
e my first experience using Emergency Gear Blow Down.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it is not really quite as simple as that. A lot of this i
ssue has to do with the age of the seals, and whether they have been replace
d (actuators rebuilt) recently, and what material might have been used with t
he new seals. Over time the original seals tend to harden. If a seal such
as this is exposed to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften and then br
eak apart. This is why some folks who have put this "stuff" into their syst
ems have seen immediate failure and others have not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the end, I tend to stick with what the original manufactur
er of these aircraft recommended and let everyone else debate the wisdom of p
utting a foreign substance into such a critical component as landing gear ac
tuators. A smart move might be to remove, rebuild, and then replace all ac
tuators on these aircraft on some type of scheduled basis, and not fly them u
ntil failure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark Bitterlich
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-l
ist-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 8:32 AM
>>>>>> To: yak-list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air system Flush
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is a
ccurate. I'll just use castor oil to be safe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ernie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.
com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ernie,
>>>>>> As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like too
l oil.
>>>>>> Doc
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel2
9@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out t
he air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil jus
t beyond the desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and t
hen empty a few scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear a
nd Flap handles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thoughts???
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ernie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Ya
k-List
>>>>>> ==========
>>>>>> FORUMS -
>>>>>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>> ==========
>>>>>> b Site -
>>>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>> ==========
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ==========
>>>>>> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>>>>> ==========
>>>>>> FORUMS -
>>>>>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>> ==========
>>>>>> b Site -
>>>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>
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