Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:54 AM - Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown (Didier Blouzard)
2. 07:11 AM - Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown (Jan Mevis)
3. 07:30 AM - Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
4. 07:43 AM - Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown (DaBear)
5. 08:23 AM - Reverse Rotation Denied! (Rico Jaeger)
6. 08:41 AM - Re: Reverse Rotation Denied! (Richard Hess)
7. 10:14 AM - Re: Reverse Rotation Denied! (DaBear)
8. 10:22 AM - Re: Reverse Rotation Denied! (Mark Davis)
9. 12:03 PM - Re: Reverse Rotation Denied! (Rico Jaeger)
10. 01:01 PM - Re: Reverse Rotation Denied!Now Landings. (cjpilot710@aol.com)
11. 07:59 PM - Re: Reverse Rotation Denied!Now Landings. (Dale)
12. 08:47 PM - Re: Reverse Rotation Denied! (Roger Kemp)
13. 10:04 PM - Yak 50 Cowl pins (Todd McCutchan)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
Regarding opening the throtle, I used to do the same until my russian
expert (Andrei Gluckhov) see me doing this and raised his eyes to the sky
telling me that it was dangerous to do so because the fuel would rinse the
oil from the cylinder and it could make more harm than good!!
So I did stop doing this!!!
Sorry
Didier
2014-09-11 18:37 GMT+02:00 Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>:
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> This might open an interesting discussion.
>
> The Russian instructions I have call for pulling the engine back to idle
> (same as you) and right after killing the mags, opening the throttle all
> the way until the engine stops rotating, and then return to idle.
>
> I have been doing that for years. Curious if others ever read it.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Jaeger
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:28 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
>
> Doug,
>
> Russian mags.
>
>
> I lock brakes, verify gills / oil cooler open, run up to 65% or so durin
g
> which time I shut off all nonessential electrical (master / ignition /
> generator and engine instruments still ON) and pull off my headset or
> helmet so I may hear anything unusual - this is usually about 20 seconds
> +/- 5 seconds, smoothly pull throttle back to idle for about 10 seconds,
> pull mags, kill master / ignition / generator. After that - unlock brakes
/
> shut off air / hop out and kill rear mags, open cylinder drain and push i
n.
> I think that covers it as I currently sit at my desk... :)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Rico Jaeger
> 915 S. 11th Ave.
> Wausau, WI. 54401
> 715.529.7426
> //
> 1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
> N8558G //
> //
> 1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
> N21YK //
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 09:03:21 -0700
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
> From: dougsappllc@gmail.com
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>
>
> What is your shut down procedure?
> What mags are you using? Russian or Chinese?
>
> Doug
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 6:54 AM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com> wrote:
>
>
> Rico,
> What CHT's are you shutting down at after scavaging you engine @
> 70% for 10 sec.? Should be shutting down at 160-170 C. Otherwise can get
> misfire and dieseling at higher temps.
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 11, 2014, at 8:13 AM, Rico Jaeger <rocknpilot@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Can anyone tell me why - occasionally when I shut down, m
y
> prop spins backwards a revolution or 2? Is this a form of dieseling? It
> doesn't happen consistently - maybe twice in the last 10 runs. I've heard
> that backwards rotation can also shear the compressor coupling...?
>
> Any wisdom shared would be much appreciated!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Rico Jaeger
> 915 S. 11th Ave.
> Wausau, WI. 54401
> 715.529.7426
>
> //
> 1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
> N8558G /
/
> //
> 1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
> N21YK //
>
>
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D
> ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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>
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>
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>
===========
===========
===========
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>
>
--
____________________________
Didier BLOUZARD
Directeur G=C3=A9n=C3=A9ral DATEXIS
Portable : +33 6 51 84 48 02
Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
Are you sure about that?
I switch off at 40 % and immediately full throttle so that there are still
some revolutions with cooler fuel/air mixture sucked in.
The prop and engine then have enough inertia left to turn a few revolutions
in the correct direction so it will actually diminish the risk of
"dieseling".
But I'm not a specialist at all. My method works fine for me, since years.
Jan
From: Didier BLOUZARD <didier.blouzard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
Regarding opening the throtle, I used to do the same until my russian exper
t
(Andrei Gluckhov) see me doing this and raised his eyes to the sky telling
me that it was dangerous to do so because the fuel would rinse the oil from
the cylinder and it could make more harm than good!!
So I did stop doing this!!!
Sorry
Didier
2014-09-11 18:37 GMT+02:00 Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>:
> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> This might open an interesting discussion.
>
> The Russian instructions I have call for pulling the engine back to idle
(same
> as you) and right after killing the mags, opening the throttle all the wa
y
> until the engine stops rotating, and then return to idle.
>
> I have been doing that for years. Curious if others ever read it.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Jaeger
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:28 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
>
> Doug,
>
> Russian mags.
>
>
> I lock brakes, verify gills / oil cooler open, run up to 65% or so durin
g
> which time I shut off all nonessential electrical (master / ignition /
> generator and engine instruments still ON) and pull off my headset or hel
met
> so I may hear anything unusual - this is usually about 20 seconds +/- 5
> seconds, smoothly pull throttle back to idle for about 10 seconds, pull m
ags,
> kill master / ignition / generator. After that - unlock brakes / shut off
air
> / hop out and kill rear mags, open cylinder drain and push in. I think th
at
> covers it as I currently sit at my desk... :)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Rico Jaeger
> 915 S. 11th Ave.
> Wausau, WI. 54401
> 715.529.7426
> //
> 1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
> N8558G //
> //
> 1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
> N21YK //
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 09:03:21 -0700
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
> From: dougsappllc@gmail.com
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>
>
> What is your shut down procedure?
> What mags are you using? Russian or Chinese?
>
> Doug
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 6:54 AM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com> wrote:
>
>
> Rico,
> What CHT's are you shutting down at after scavaging you engine @
70%
> for 10 sec.? Should be shutting down at 160-170 C. Otherwise can get misf
ire
> and dieseling at higher temps.
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 11, 2014, at 8:13 AM, Rico Jaeger <rocknpilot@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Can anyone tell me why - occasionally when I shut down, m
y
> prop spins backwards a revolution or 2? Is this a form of dieseling? It
> doesn't happen consistently - maybe twice in the last 10 runs. I've heard
that
> backwards rotation can also shear the compressor coupling...?
>
> Any wisdom shared would be much appreciated!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Rico Jaeger
> 915 S. 11th Ave.
> Wausau, WI. 54401
> 715.529.7426 <tel:715.529.7426>
>
> //
> 1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
> N8558G /
/
> //
> 1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
> N21YK //
>
>
>
>
>
>
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> //forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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>
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>
>
>
>
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>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
--
____________________________
Didier BLOUZARD
Directeur G=C3=A9n=C3=A9ral DATEXIS
Portable : +33 6 51 84 48 02
Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
=02=EF=BD=EF=BD
Message 3
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| Subject: | Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
Excuse me, but I totally disagree to the point of saying his comment was ridiculous
Didier.
1. There is normally no oil in the combustion chamber. Fuel is fed into the combustion
chamber ignited and burned at high temperature. When the engine is
shut down by ignition it will continue to suck in fuel whether the throttle is
open or closed. The tiny amount of fuel that is fed in as the engine rotates
to a stop after ignition is killed at approx. 20% is extremely small.
2. The whole idea of piston rings is to seal the combustion chamber. On the Russian
pistons, there is actually a 4th ring at the bottom referred to as an "oil
scraper ring". The purpose of that ring is to REMOVE any oil that might remain
on the cylinder wall as the piston moves up and down. Some of the remaining
rings are doing the same thing.
3. This kind of urban legend usually comes from some sort of "truth". In this
case, the "truth" or reality if you will... is when you run an engine with an
EXTREMELY rich mixture which results in large amounts of unburnt fuel remaining
in the cylinder after combustion. This fuel will tend to saturate the piston
rings and prevent proper contact which will then cause the rings to "lose their
seal". This is referred to as "Washing Out The Rings". Again, this only
happens when the engine is running with an extremely rich mixture and NOT when
it is shut down by removing ignition and coming to a stop from idle.
There is nothing magic about the M-14P. It uses the same physics to operate as
any other engine. Andrei is incorrect about this, and while I am sure he will
disagree, you might ask him for a reference. The actual Russian operating
procedures from the manufacturer call for this procedure, and while I agree that
NOT doing it is really not the end of the world.... doing it will NOT damage
the cylinders or rings.
Above and beyond the written procedures, 850 hours on my M-14P with original pistons
and rings and compression ratios all in the 70's kind of proves it.
Mark said that "rolling his eyes to the sky". Yes, I know that Russian facial
expression very well. :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Didier Blouzard
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
Regarding opening the throtle, I used to do the same until my russian expert (Andrei
Gluckhov) see me doing this and raised his eyes to the sky telling me that
it was dangerous to do so because the fuel would rinse the oil from the cylinder
and it could make more harm than good!!
So I did stop doing this!!!
Sorry
Didier
2014-09-11 18:37 GMT+02:00 Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>:
This might open an interesting discussion.
The Russian instructions I have call for pulling the engine back to idle (same
as you) and right after killing the mags, opening the throttle all the way until
the engine stops rotating, and then return to idle.
I have been doing that for years. Curious if others ever read it.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Jaeger
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:28 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
Doug,
Russian mags.
I lock brakes, verify gills / oil cooler open, run up to 65% or so during which
time I shut off all nonessential electrical (master / ignition / generator
and engine instruments still ON) and pull off my headset or helmet so I may hear
anything unusual - this is usually about 20 seconds +/- 5 seconds, smoothly
pull throttle back to idle for about 10 seconds, pull mags, kill master / ignition
/ generator. After that - unlock brakes / shut off air / hop out and kill
rear mags, open cylinder drain and push in. I think that covers it as I currently
sit at my desk... :)
Thanks!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
________________________________
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 09:03:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
From: dougsappllc@gmail.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
What is your shut down procedure?
What mags are you using? Russian or Chinese?
Doug
On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 6:54 AM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com> wrote:
Rico,
What CHT's are you shutting down at after scavaging you engine @ 70% for
10 sec.? Should be shutting down at 160-170 C. Otherwise can get misfire and
dieseling at higher temps.
Doc
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 11, 2014, at 8:13 AM, Rico Jaeger <rocknpilot@hotmail.com> wrote:
Can anyone tell me why - occasionally when I shut down, my prop
spins backwards a revolution or 2? Is this a form of dieseling? It doesn't happen
consistently - maybe twice in the last 10 runs. I've heard that backwards
rotation can also shear the compressor coupling...?
Any wisdom shared would be much appreciated!
Thanks!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
D============================================
ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
D============================================
//forums.matronics.com
D============================================
ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
D============================================
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--
____________________________
Didier BLOUZARD
Directeur Gnral DATEXIS
Portable : +33 6 51 84 48 02
Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
I=99ve been going to full throttle upon shutting off the mags for
16 years and 1600+ hours. Haven=99t had ANY issue with the wear
on the inside Cyl walls.
Bear
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
Are you sure about that?
I switch off at 40 % and immediately full throttle so that there are
still some revolutions with cooler fuel/air mixture sucked in.
The prop and engine then have enough inertia left to turn a few
revolutions in the correct direction so it will actually diminish the
risk of "dieseling".
But I'm not a specialist at all. My method works fine for me, since
years.
Jan
From: Didier BLOUZARD <didier.blouzard@gmail.com
<mailto:didier.blouzard@gmail.com> >
<yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com> >
<yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com> >
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
Regarding opening the throtle, I used to do the same until my russian
expert (Andrei Gluckhov) see me doing this and raised his eyes to the
sky telling me that it was dangerous to do so because the fuel would
rinse the oil from the cylinder and it could make more harm than good!!
So I did stop doing this!!!
Sorry
Didier
2014-09-11 18:37 GMT+02:00 Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> >:
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> >
This might open an interesting discussion.
The Russian instructions I have call for pulling the engine back to idle
(same as you) and right after killing the mags, opening the throttle all
the way until the engine stops rotating, and then return to idle.
I have been doing that for years. Curious if others ever read it.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> ] On Behalf Of Rico Jaeger
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
Doug,
Russian mags.
I lock brakes, verify gills / oil cooler open, run up to 65% or so
during which time I shut off all nonessential electrical (master /
ignition / generator and engine instruments still ON) and pull off my
headset or helmet so I may hear anything unusual - this is usually about
20 seconds +/- 5 seconds, smoothly pull throttle back to idle for about
10 seconds, pull mags, kill master / ignition / generator. After that -
unlock brakes / shut off air / hop out and kill rear mags, open cylinder
drain and push in. I think that covers it as I currently sit at my
desk... :)
Thanks!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
________________________________
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
From: dougsappllc@gmail.com <mailto:dougsappllc@gmail.com>
What is your shut down procedure?
What mags are you using? Russian or Chinese?
Doug
On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 6:54 AM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com
<mailto:f16viperdoc@me.com> > wrote:
Rico,
What CHT's are you shutting down at after scavaging you engine @
70% for 10 sec.? Should be shutting down at 160-170 C. Otherwise can get
misfire and dieseling at higher temps.
Doc
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 11, 2014, at 8:13 AM, Rico Jaeger <rocknpilot@hotmail.com
<mailto:rocknpilot@hotmail.com> > wrote:
Can anyone tell me why - occasionally when I shut down,
my prop spins backwards a revolution or 2? Is this a form of dieseling?
It doesn't happen consistently - maybe twice in the last 10 runs. I've
heard that backwards rotation can also shear the compressor coupling...?
Any wisdom shared would be much appreciated!
Thanks!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426 <tel:715.529.7426>
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G
//
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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Directeur G=C3=A9n=C3=A9ral DATEXIS
Portable : +33 6 51 84 48 02
Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
[1]=EF=BD=EF=BD
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| Subject: | Reverse Rotation Denied! |
Well guys...the throttle-up technique worked 2 for 2 last night. But I also
noticed that I was (probably) shutting down w/ my cylinder temp running a
little on the hot side. So...more Yak lessons added to an already thick cou
rse folder.
NEW TOPIC: May I take a poll regarding approaches? I believe the 52 is a po
och to fly. But my landings are truly erratic. I know most pilots would n
ever admit these quirks (Above ALL else - LOOK SMOOTH) but I range from gre
asing it in=2C to 2.5G drops pretty routinely. 'Went up Tuesday and walked
away going "Wow. I think I've got this." 'Went up last night and went "Wow.
No I don't." In my limited experience=2C the Yak has spanked me hard enoug
h to humble me completely on numerous occasions. Now=2C I realize landings
are a very personal aspect of flying. Some go full-stall while others maint
ain a little power and fly down to the runway. Then it seems - no matter wh
at your technique or experience - there are just "those" days. Watching Air
Venture arrivals leaps to mind. I'm sure some very capable pilots leave mor
e rubber on 27 than they would've ever predicted. But I cannot and WILL not
chime in w/ the runway-side "quarterbacks" critiquing all=2C while their b
acon is planted squarely in a lawn chair. It's not my style to pump up my e
go by delighting in the deflation of others'. That said...I want to learn.
And since I believe in wisdom and safety over pride - I ask. :)
I've been tutored by some of the best=2C but their methods were often confl
icting. The following is an "average" account of what I do for an approach
- albeit based on limited experience and still a fairly steep learning curv
e:
I fly a typical retractable pattern. On downwind I have been going to 80% p
ower=2C prop fine=2C carb heat on at the top of downwind=2C gear down abeam
. By the time I'm ready to turn base I'm at about 85 knots. On base I have
been bringing power back to 70% and maintaining 80 - 85 knots w/ my descent
. As soon as I roll wings level on final - probably 1/4 mile from the numbe
rs=2C I dump flaps. As I push the nose down this has me at about 75 - 80 k
nots=2C reduce power to 60% and as I flair airspeed drops to about 70 and b
leeds off. Anything slower - to me - feels very mushy.
Now...if I have "ballast" in back=2C I've found that I can plant it at just
about any airspeed. But if I'm solo=2C it needs to be as slow and gentle a
s possible or I have bounced back up - and more than once - gotten into som
e majorly-ugly oscillations that left me in a go-around situation w/ my vit
als uncomfortably elevated.
Please talk to me. Guide me=2C experienced Yakkers...and as always - THANK
YOU!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau=2C WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Reverse Rotation Denied! |
Rico,
I've always used 90 KIAS on base and not less than 80 KIAS over the threshol
d. See if the few extra knots gives a more consistent flare and touchdown.
Richard Hess
President
International Jets, Inc.
Gadsden, AL
O 256-442-8099
C 404-964-4885
www.InternationalJets.com
> On Sep 12, 2014, at 12:21 PM, Rico Jaeger <rocknpilot@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well guys...the throttle-up technique worked 2 for 2 last night. But I als
o noticed that I was (probably) shutting down w/ my cylinder temp running a l
ittle on the hot side. So...more Yak lessons added to an already thick cours
e folder.
>
> NEW TOPIC: May I take a poll regarding approaches? I believe the 52 is a p
ooch to fly. But my landings are truly erratic. I know most pilots would n
ever admit these quirks (Above ALL else - LOOK SMOOTH) but I range from grea
sing it in, to 2.5G drops pretty routinely. 'Went up Tuesday and walked away
going "Wow. I think I've got this." 'Went up last night and went "Wow. No I
don't." In my limited experience, the Yak has spanked me hard enough to hum
ble me completely on numerous occasions. Now, I realize landings are a very p
ersonal aspect of flying. Some go full-stall while others maintain a little p
ower and fly down to the runway. Then it seems - no matter what your techniq
ue or experience - there are just "those" days. Watching AirVenture arrivals
leaps to mind. I'm sure some very capable pilots leave more rubber on 27 th
an they would've ever predicted. But I cannot and WILL not chime in w/ the r
unway-side "quarterbacks" critiquing all, while their bacon is planted squar
ely in a lawn chair. It's not my style to pump up my ego by delighting in th
e deflation of others'. That said...I want to learn. And since I believe in w
isdom and safety over pride - I ask. :)
>
> I've been tutored by some of the best, but their methods were often confli
cting. The following is an "average" account of what I do for an approach - a
lbeit based on limited experience and still a fairly steep learning curve:
>
> I fly a typical retractable pattern. On downwind I have been going to 80% p
ower, prop fine, carb heat on at the top of downwind, gear down abeam. By th
e time I'm ready to turn base I'm at about 85 knots. On base I have been bri
nging power back to 70% and maintaining 80 - 85 knots w/ my descent. As soon
as I roll wings level on final - probably 1/4 mile from the numbers, I dump
flaps. As I push the nose down this has me at about 75 - 80 knots, reduce p
ower to 60% and as I flair airspeed drops to about 70 and bleeds off. Anythi
ng slower - to me - feels very mushy.
>
> Now...if I have "ballast" in back, I've found that I can plant it at just a
bout any airspeed. But if I'm solo, it needs to be as slow and gentle as pos
sible or I have bounced back up - and more than once - gotten into some majo
rly-ugly oscillations that left me in a go-around situation w/ my vitals unc
omfortably elevated.
>
>
> Please talk to me. Guide me, experienced Yakkers...and as always - THANK Y
OU!
>
> Rico Jaeger
> 915 S. 11th Ave.
> Wausau, WI. 54401
> 715.529.7426
> //
> 1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
> N8558G //
> //
> 1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
> N21YK //
>
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Reverse Rotation Denied! |
I would leave the prop at 2400/82% and not go full forward on the prop to
land.
Bear
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Jaeger
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 11:22 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation Denied!
Well guys...the throttle-up technique worked 2 for 2 last night. But I also
noticed that I was (probably) shutting down w/ my cylinder temp running a
little on the hot side. So...more Yak lessons added to an already thick
course folder.
NEW TOPIC: May I take a poll regarding approaches? I believe the 52 is a
pooch to fly. But my landings are truly erratic. I know most pilots would
never admit these quirks (Above ALL else - LOOK SMOOTH) but I range from
greasing it in, to 2.5G drops pretty routinely. 'Went up Tuesday and walked
away going "Wow. I think I've got this." 'Went up last night and went "Wow.
No I don't." In my limited experience, the Yak has spanked me hard enough to
humble me completely on numerous occasions. Now, I realize landings are a
very personal aspect of flying. Some go full-stall while others maintain a
little power and fly down to the runway. Then it seems - no matter what your
technique or experience - there are just "those" days. Watching AirVenture
arrivals leaps to mind. I'm sure some very capable pilots leave more rubber
on 27 than they would've ever predicted. But I cannot and WILL not chime in
w/ the runway-side "quarterbacks" critiquing all, while their bacon is
planted squarely in a lawn chair. It's not my style to pump up my ego by
delighting in the deflation of others'. That said...I want to learn. And
since I believe in wisdom and safety over pride - I ask. :)
I've been tutored by some of the best, but their methods were often
conflicting. The following is an "average" account of what I do for an
approach - albeit based on limited experience and still a fairly steep
learning curve:
I fly a typical retractable pattern. On downwind I have been going to 80%
power, prop fine, carb heat on at the top of downwind, gear down abeam. By
the time I'm ready to turn base I'm at about 85 knots. On base I have been
bringing power back to 70% and maintaining 80 - 85 knots w/ my descent. As
soon as I roll wings level on final - probably 1/4 mile from the numbers, I
dump flaps. As I push the nose down this has me at about 75 - 80 knots,
reduce power to 60% and as I flair airspeed drops to about 70 and bleeds
off. Anything slower - to me - feels very mushy.
Now...if I have "ballast" in back, I've found that I can plant it at just
about any airspeed. But if I'm solo, it needs to be as slow and gentle as
possible or I have bounced back up - and more than once - gotten into some
majorly-ugly oscillations that left me in a go-around situation w/ my vitals
uncomfortably elevated.
Please talk to me. Guide me, experienced Yakkers...and as always - THANK
YOU!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
Message 8
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| Subject: | Reverse Rotation Denied! |
I'll be the first to bite at this apple. As an old LSO, the key to
consistent landings is a stabilized, trimmed up approach. I would suggest
lowering your flaps and trimming the aircraft for your approach speed before
you begin your turn off the perch. It may require a LITTLE tighter pattern
or a LITTLE shorter final because of the additional drag of the flaps. But
I strongly recommend a pattern that doesn't exceed 25-27 degrees angle of
bank and a wings level final not less than eight to ten seconds. The turn
of less than 30 AOB allows for a little margin for overshooting crosswinds
without wrapping it up too tight and the 8-10 second wings level final gives
you a little cushion to handle an overshoot and still safely work back to
centerline and be stabilized before you begin your flare. Turns off the
perch requiring up to 45 degrees AOB require excess airspeed to handle the
slight load factor and you end up having to fix a higher than desired
airspeed on final. Again not stabilized and may result in issues eating up
you interval in a formation recovery or the urge to get it on the deck
sooner than desired. I know there are those out there that want to be very
tight in the pattern due to the POSSIBLITY of an engine failure. At my home
field at 3,320' with a 3,000' runway that I normally land on, unless the
engine quits abeam the intended point of landing I'm not going to be in a
position to land on the remaining runway. It's a different story for those
of you with much longer runways. I'm not advocating a pattern that would
look comfortable to a 747 captain. But, I know of two RPA aircraft that
have gone down in the pattern due to wrapped up turns to final, but am not
aware of any who have perished from losing an engine in the pattern, so I'm
a strong advocate of a NOTSO tight pattern particularly in multi ship
formations with overshooting crosswinds where everyone rolls out downwind
with their interval on their nose and by the time Dash 4 is at the perch,
he's not abeam the intended point of landing, he's NEARLY OVER the intended
point landing. We have vastly differing levels of experience in our RPA
community and the desire to hack it by some FNG's has likely made for some
exciting landings and probably a few lost comrades. Every time I go the
southern route to our cabin in Colorado I pass the airport at Walsenburg, CO
and am saddened by the memory of the father and son that perished there
several years ago in their new Nanchang on the way to OSH flying what was,
for the density altitude and/or winds that day, too tight of a pattern. So,
maybe when we start losing more aircraft in the pattern from engine
failures than from wrapped up approach turn stalls I'll be more inclined to
advocate the very tight pattern, until then I'll stand by a 25-27 degree
AOB, trimmed up, stabilized turn that yields consistent and safe results.
Sorry to diverge beyond landings themselves, but the pattern is where it all
begins.
As not just an old LSO, but also a Naval Aviator, I can take it just as well
as I can dish it out. Hit me with your best shot!
Mark Davis
N44YK
Former Garuda and Guntrain Paddles
P.S. Before I completed this I saw Richard Hess's comments on airspeeds.
They're the same I use. Bleeding off excess airspeed on short final is easy
with the paddle blade prop.
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Jaeger
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 9:22 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation Denied!
Well guys...the throttle-up technique worked 2 for 2 last night. But I also
noticed that I was (probably) shutting down w/ my cylinder temp running a
little on the hot side. So...more Yak lessons added to an already thick
course folder.
NEW TOPIC: May I take a poll regarding approaches? I believe the 52 is a
pooch to fly. But my landings are truly erratic. I know most pilots would
never admit these quirks (Above ALL else - LOOK SMOOTH) but I range from
greasing it in, to 2.5G drops pretty routinely. 'Went up Tuesday and walked
away going "Wow. I think I've got this." 'Went up last night and went "Wow.
No I don't." In my limited experience, the Yak has spanked me hard enough to
humble me completely on numerous occasions. Now, I realize landings are a
very personal aspect of flying. Some go full-stall while others maintain a
little power and fly down to the runway. Then it seems - no matter what your
technique or experience - there are just "those" days. Watching AirVenture
arrivals leaps to mind. I'm sure some very capable pilots leave more rubber
on 27 than they would've ever predicted. But I cannot and WILL not chime in
w/ the runway-side "quarterbacks" critiquing all, while their bacon is
planted squarely in a lawn chair. It's not my style to pump up my ego by
delighting in the deflation of others'. That said...I want to learn. And
since I believe in wisdom and safety over pride - I ask. :)
I've been tutored by some of the best, but their methods were often
conflicting. The following is an "average" account of what I do for an
approach - albeit based on limited experience and still a fairly steep
learning curve:
I fly a typical retractable pattern. On downwind I have been going to 80%
power, prop fine, carb heat on at the top of downwind, gear down abeam. By
the time I'm ready to turn base I'm at about 85 knots. On base I have been
bringing power back to 70% and maintaining 80 - 85 knots w/ my descent. As
soon as I roll wings level on final - probably 1/4 mile from the numbers, I
dump flaps. As I push the nose down this has me at about 75 - 80 knots,
reduce power to 60% and as I flair airspeed drops to about 70 and bleeds
off. Anything slower - to me - feels very mushy.
Now...if I have "ballast" in back, I've found that I can plant it at just
about any airspeed. But if I'm solo, it needs to be as slow and gentle as
possible or I have bounced back up - and more than once - gotten into some
majorly-ugly oscillations that left me in a go-around situation w/ my vitals
uncomfortably elevated.
Please talk to me. Guide me, experienced Yakkers...and as always - THANK
YOU!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
Message 9
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| Subject: | Reverse Rotation Denied! |
Mark=2C
Hit you w/ my best shot? On the contrary: I'd salute you if my civilian sal
ute carried any weight.
1st of all - and most importantly - THANK YOU for your service to your coun
try. What I wouldn't give to hear some of the amazing stories you could eas
ily spill for hours. Also=2C it's very humbling to me as I try to find my w
ay amongst those whom have such a rich aviation background. You guys are th
e reason I READ much more than I could ever contribute - and why I LEARN mu
ch more than I may ever be able to teach.
2nd - THANK YOU for this wealth of info. I need to read this a dozen more t
imes to truly digest it=2C but suffice to say - when I was still just a "lu
rker" in search of a Yak=2C I had the perils of "coffin corner" burnt into
my brain. I do not lie when I say it resonates within me every time I turn
base-to-final now. Love the idea of a "stabilized=2C trimmed approach." Mak
es much sense that if you want a good landing=2C that process should not be
complicated by wrestling w/ the airplane to achieve runway center=2C longi
tudinal correction=2C etc. I think that point hit home the most - as I know
I am guilty of complacency - often trying to find "the pocket" during flai
r rather than approach.
To me=2C THIS is both the beauty and purpose of "The List." I can't speak f
or everyone=2C but these convo's really are valuable to me. Not only do the
y provide great discussion based around a common passion and "a-HA" moments
=2C they also may confirm GOOD practices=2C as well as inspire ME to 1) fly
=2C and 2) fly BETTER. Sadly=2C there are times these pages turn into a (po
litically correct) "Urinating Contest." There are valuable lessons to be le
arned here - ones that may be missed if one is too intimidated to ask. So f
rom the official "weak link" in your midst=2C I thank you guys for your pat
ience and wisdom. I have no business being in the Yak business. Therefore y
ou can bet I'm going to go for broke as I attempt to earn my keep.
Now I can't wait to fly...but the 400' ceiling is laughing at me...
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau=2C WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
From: markdavis@wbsnet.org
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation Denied!
I=92ll be the first to bite at this apple. As an old LSO=2C the key to con
sistent landings is a stabilized=2C trimmed up approach. I would suggest l
owering your flaps and trimming the aircraft for your approach speed before
you begin your turn off the perch. It may require a LITTLE tighter patter
n or a LITTLE shorter final because of the additional drag of the flaps. B
ut I strongly recommend a pattern that doesn=92t exceed 25-27 degrees angle
of bank and a wings level final not less than eight to ten seconds. The
turn of less than 30 AOB allows for a little margin for overshooting crossw
inds without wrapping it up too tight and the 8-10 second wings level final
gives you a little cushion to handle an overshoot and still safely work ba
ck to centerline and be stabilized before you begin your flare. Turns off
the perch requiring up to 45 degrees AOB require excess airspeed to handle
the slight load factor and you end up having to fix a higher than desired a
irspeed on final. Again not stabilized and may result in issues eating up
you interval in a formation recovery or the urge to get it on the deck soon
er than desired. I know there are those out there that want to be very tig
ht in the pattern due to the POSSIBLITY of an engine failure. At my home f
ield at 3=2C320=92 with a 3=2C000=92 runway that I normally land on=2C unle
ss the engine quits abeam the intended point of landing I=92m not going to
be in a position to land on the remaining runway. It=92s a different story
for those of you with much longer runways. I=92m not advocating a pattern
that would look comfortable to a 747 captain. But=2C I know of two RPA a
ircraft that have gone down in the pattern due to wrapped up turns to final
=2C but am not aware of any who have perished from losing an engine in the
pattern=2C so I=92m a strong advocate of a NOTSO tight pattern particularly
in multi ship formations with overshooting crosswinds where everyone rolls
out downwind with their interval on their nose and by the time Dash 4 is a
t the perch=2C he=92s not abeam the intended point of landing=2C he=92s NEA
RLY OVER the intended point landing. We have vastly differing levels of ex
perience in our RPA community and the desire to hack it by some FNG=92s has
likely made for some exciting landings and probably a few lost comrades.
Every time I go the southern route to our cabin in Colorado I pass the airp
ort at Walsenburg=2C CO and am saddened by the memory of the father and son
that perished there several years ago in their new Nanchang on the way to
OSH flying what was=2C for the density altitude and/or winds that day=2C to
o tight of a pattern. So=2C maybe when we start losing more aircraft in t
he pattern from engine failures than from wrapped up approach turn stalls I
=92ll be more inclined to advocate the very tight pattern=2C until then I
=92ll stand by a 25-27 degree AOB=2C trimmed up=2C stabilized turn that yie
lds consistent and safe results. Sorry to diverge beyond landings themselv
es=2C but the pattern is where it all begins. As not just an old LSO=2C but
also a Naval Aviator=2C I can take it just as well as I can dish it out.
Hit me with your best shot! Mark DavisN44YKFormer Garuda and Guntrain Paddl
es P.S. Before I completed this I saw Richard Hess=92s comments on airspee
ds. They=92re the same I use. Bleeding off excess airspeed on short final
is easy with the paddle blade prop. From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics
.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Jaeger
Sent: Friday=2C September 12=2C 2014 9:22 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation Denied! Well guys...the throttle-up tec
hnique worked 2 for 2 last night. But I also noticed that I was (probably)
shutting down w/ my cylinder temp running a little on the hot side. So...mo
re Yak lessons added to an already thick course folder. NEW TOPIC: May I ta
ke a poll regarding approaches? I believe the 52 is a pooch to fly. But my
landings are truly erratic. I know most pilots would never admit these qu
irks (Above ALL else - LOOK SMOOTH) but I range from greasing it in=2C to 2
.5G drops pretty routinely. 'Went up Tuesday and walked away going "Wow. I
think I've got this." 'Went up last night and went "Wow. No I don't." In my
limited experience=2C the Yak has spanked me hard enough to humble me comp
letely on numerous occasions. Now=2C I realize landings are a very personal
aspect of flying. Some go full-stall while others maintain a little power
and fly down to the runway. Then it seems - no matter what your technique o
r experience - there are just "those" days. Watching AirVenture arrivals le
aps to mind. I'm sure some very capable pilots leave more rubber on 27 than
they would've ever predicted. But I cannot and WILL not chime in w/ the ru
nway-side "quarterbacks" critiquing all=2C while their bacon is planted squ
arely in a lawn chair. It's not my style to pump up my ego by delighting in
the deflation of others'. That said...I want to learn. And since I believe
in wisdom and safety over pride - I ask. :) I've been tutored by some of t
he best=2C but their methods were often conflicting. The following is an "a
verage" account of what I do for an approach - albeit based on limited expe
rience and still a fairly steep learning curve: I fly a typical retractable
pattern. On downwind I have been going to 80% power=2C prop fine=2C carb h
eat on at the top of downwind=2C gear down abeam. By the time I'm ready to
turn base I'm at about 85 knots. On base I have been bringing power back to
70% and maintaining 80 - 85 knots w/ my descent. As soon as I roll wings l
evel on final - probably 1/4 mile from the numbers=2C I dump flaps. As I p
ush the nose down this has me at about 75 - 80 knots=2C reduce power to 60%
and as I flair airspeed drops to about 70 and bleeds off. Anything slower
- to me - feels very mushy. Now...if I have "ballast" in back=2C I've found
that I can plant it at just about any airspeed. But if I'm solo=2C it need
s to be as slow and gentle as possible or I have bounced back up - and more
than once - gotten into some majorly-ugly oscillations that left me in a g
o-around situation w/ my vitals uncomfortably elevated. Please talk to me.
Guide me=2C experienced Yakkers...and as always - THANK YOU!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau=2C WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
http://www.matronics.com/Naviga
tor?Yak-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contributio
n =0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
============0A
============0A
============0A
============0A
=0A
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Reverse Rotation Denied!Now Landings. |
Rico,
I can ditto much of what Mark points out and only add that where you are
looking during the landing can have BIG effects on when you flare the
airplane. Looking to far down the runway or to close to the airplane will
not
give you the best depth perception for height. You should move you visio
n in
too and away from the airplane constantly. Looking further down the
runway will give you pitch, roll, and yaw cues but height judgement suffe
rs.
Looking to close to the airplane, you may get height awareness better but
the
other parameter lose perception. Keep your vision moving.
Like Mark I have my airplane configured (gear & flaps down) at the perch.
My power is about 12-1500 rpm IAS about 85kts. Bank angle is hardly ever
over 30 degrees. Trimmed.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 9/12/2014 3:03:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
rocknpilot@hotmail.com writes:
Mark,
Hit you w/ my best shot? On the contrary: I'd salute you if my civilian
salute carried any weight.
1st of all - and most importantly - THANK YOU for your service to your
country. What I wouldn't give to hear some of the amazing stories you coul
d
easily spill for hours. Also, it's very humbling to me as I try to find my
way
amongst those whom have such a rich aviation background. You guys are the
reason I READ much more than I could ever contribute - and why I LEARN muc
h
more than I may ever be able to teach.
2nd - THANK YOU for this wealth of info. I need to read this a dozen more
times to truly digest it, but suffice to say - when I was still just a
"lurker" in search of a Yak, I had the perils of "coffin corner" burnt int
o my
brain. I do not lie when I say it resonates within me every time I turn
base-to-final now. Love the idea of a "stabilized, trimmed approach." Make
s
much sense that if you want a good landing, that process should not be
complicated by wrestling w/ the airplane to achieve runway center, longit
udinal
correction, etc. I think that point hit home the most - as I know I am
guilty of complacency - often trying to find "the pocket" during flair ra
ther
than approach.
To me, THIS is both the beauty and purpose of "The List." I can't speak
for everyone, but these convo's really are valuable to me. Not only do the
y
provide great discussion based around a common passion and "a-HA" moments,
they also may confirm GOOD practices, as well as inspire ME to 1) fly, and
2)
fly BETTER. Sadly, there are times these pages turn into a (politically
correct) "Urinating Contest." There are valuable lessons to be learned her
e -
ones that may be missed if one is too intimidated to ask. So from the
official "weak link" in your midst, I thank you guys for your patience an
d
wisdom. I have no business being in the Yak business. Therefore you can
bet I'm
going to go for broke as I attempt to earn my keep.
Now I can't wait to fly...but the 400' ceiling is laughing at me...
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
____________________________________
From: markdavis@wbsnet.org
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation Denied!
I=99ll be the first to bite at this apple. As an old LSO, the key
to
consistent landings is a stabilized, trimmed up approach. I would sugges
t
lowering your flaps and trimming the aircraft for your approach speed bef
ore you
begin your turn off the perch. It may require a LITTLE tighter pattern
or
a LITTLE shorter final because of the additional drag of the flaps. But
I
strongly recommend a pattern that doesn=99t exceed 25-27 degrees ang
le of
bank and a wings level final not less than eight to ten seconds. The
turn
of less than 30 AOB allows for a little margin for overshooting crosswind
s
without wrapping it up too tight and the 8-10 second wings level final gi
ves
you a little cushion to handle an overshoot and still safely work back to
centerline and be stabilized before you begin your flare. Turns off the
perch requiring up to 45 degrees AOB require excess airspeed to handle th
e
slight load factor and you end up having to fix a higher than desired
airspeed on final. Again not stabilized and may result in issues eating
up you
interval in a formation recovery or the urge to get it on the deck sooner
than desired. I know there are those out there that want to be very tigh
t in
the pattern due to the POSSIBLITY of an engine failure. At my home field
at 3,320=99 with a 3,000=99 runway that I normally land on, un
less the engine
quits abeam the intended point of landing I=99m not going to be in
a position
to land on the remaining runway. It=99s a different story for thos
e of you
with much longer runways. I=99m not advocating a pattern that woul
d look
comfortable to a 747 captain. But, I know of two RPA aircraft that have
gone
down in the pattern due to wrapped up turns to final, but am not aware of
any who have perished from losing an engine in the pattern, so I=99
m a strong
advocate of a NOTSO tight pattern particularly in multi ship formations
with overshooting crosswinds where everyone rolls out downwind with their
interval on their nose and by the time Dash 4 is at the perch, he
=99s not abeam
the intended point of landing, he=99s NEARLY OVER the intended poin
t landing.
We have vastly differing levels of experience in our RPA community and th
e
desire to hack it by some FNG=99s has likely made for some exciting
landings
and probably a few lost comrades. Every time I go the southern route to
our cabin in Colorado I pass the airport at Walsenburg, CO and am saddene
d
by the memory of the father and son that perished there several years ago
in
their new Nanchang on the way to OSH flying what was, for the density
altitude and/or winds that day, too tight of a pattern. So, maybe when
we
start losing more aircraft in the pattern from engine failures than from
wrapped up approach turn stalls I=99ll be more inclined to advocate
the very tight
pattern, until then I=99ll stand by a 25-27 degree AOB, trimmed up,
stabilized turn that yields consistent and safe results.
Sorry to diverge beyond landings themselves, but the pattern is where it
all begins.
As not just an old LSO, but also a Naval Aviator, I can take it just as
well as I can dish it out. Hit me with your best shot!
Mark Davis
N44YK
Former Garuda and Guntrain Paddles
P.S. Before I completed this I saw Richard Hess=99s comments on ai
rspeeds.
They=99re the same I use. Bleeding off excess airspeed on short fi
nal is
easy with the paddle blade prop.
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Jaeger
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 9:22 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation Denied!
Well guys...the throttle-up technique worked 2 for 2 last night. But I
also noticed that I was (probably) shutting down w/ my cylinder temp runn
ing a
little on the hot side. So...more Yak lessons added to an already thick
course folder.
NEW TOPIC: May I take a poll regarding approaches? I believe the 52 is a
pooch to fly. But my landings are truly erratic. I know most pilots wou
ld
never admit these quirks (Above ALL else - LOOK SMOOTH) but I range from
greasing it in, to 2.5G drops pretty routinely. 'Went up Tuesday and walke
d
away going "Wow. I think I've got this." 'Went up last night and went "Wow
.
No I don't." In my limited experience, the Yak has spanked me hard enough
to humble me completely on numerous occasions. Now, I realize landings ar
e a
very personal aspect of flying. Some go full-stall while others maintain
a
little power and fly down to the runway. Then it seems - no matter what
your technique or experience - there are just "those" days. Watching
AirVenture arrivals leaps to mind. I'm sure some very capable pilots leav
e more
rubber on 27 than they would've ever predicted. But I cannot and WILL not
chime in w/ the runway-side "quarterbacks" critiquing all, while their ba
con is
planted squarely in a lawn chair. It's not my style to pump up my ego by
delighting in the deflation of others'. That said...I want to learn. And
since I believe in wisdom and safety over pride - I ask. :)
I've been tutored by some of the best, but their methods were often
conflicting. The following is an "average" account of what I do for an ap
proach -
albeit based on limited experience and still a fairly steep learning
curve:
I fly a typical retractable pattern. On downwind I have been going to 80%
power, prop fine, carb heat on at the top of downwind, gear down abeam.
By
the time I'm ready to turn base I'm at about 85 knots. On base I have bee
n
bringing power back to 70% and maintaining 80 - 85 knots w/ my descent.
As
soon as I roll wings level on final - probably 1/4 mile from the numbers,
I
dump flaps. As I push the nose down this has me at about 75 - 80 knots,
reduce power to 60% and as I flair airspeed drops to about 70 and bleeds
off.
Anything slower - to me - feels very mushy.
Now...if I have "ballast" in back, I've found that I can plant it at just
about any airspeed. But if I'm solo, it needs to be as slow and gentle as
possible or I have bounced back up - and more than once - gotten into som
e
majorly-ugly oscillations that left me in a go-around situation w/ my vit
als
uncomfortably elevated.
Please talk to me. Guide me, experienced Yakkers...and as always - THANK
YOU!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
=========== http://forums.matronics.com ====
=======
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========
===
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Reverse Rotation Denied!Now Landings. |
200 k downwind 70 to 75% leave prop alone rest of landing.
170 k base flaps down trim for hands off
150 k final trim again hands off flight
Hold 150 k use power to hold touchdown point in windshield all
Start flair by rounding out and slowly reduce power
Perfect smooth greaser landing every time.
Need a go round grab a handful of handles and push them forward
Yak has the power and will go. Not like a Stock Cj
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430467#430467
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Reverse Rotation Denied! |
Paddles dead nuts on.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
> On Sep 12, 2014, at 12:21 PM, Mark Davis <markdavis@wbsnet.org> wrote:
>
> I=99ll be the first to bite at this apple. As an old LSO, the key t
o consistent landings is a stabilized, trimmed up approach. I would suggest
lowering your flaps and trimming the aircraft for your approach speed befor
e you begin your turn off the perch. It may require a LITTLE tighter patter
n or a LITTLE shorter final because of the additional drag of the flaps. Bu
t I strongly recommend a pattern that doesn=99t exceed 25-27 degrees a
ngle of bank and a wings level final not less than eight to ten seconds. T
he turn of less than 30 AOB allows for a little margin for overshooting cros
swinds without wrapping it up too tight and the 8-10 second wings level fina
l gives you a little cushion to handle an overshoot and still safely work ba
ck to centerline and be stabilized before you begin your flare. Turns off t
he perch requiring up to 45 degrees AOB require excess airspeed to handle th
e slight load factor and you end up having to fix a higher than desired airs
peed on final. Again not stabilized and may result in issues eating up you i
nterval in a formation recovery or the urge to get it on the deck sooner tha
n desired. I know there are those out there that want to be very tight in t
he pattern due to the POSSIBLITY of an engine failure. At my home field at 3
,320=99 with a 3,000=99 runway that I normally land on, unless t
he engine quits abeam the intended point of landing I=99m not going to
be in a position to land on the remaining runway. It=99s a different
story for those of you with much longer runways. I=99m not advocatin
g a pattern that would look comfortable to a 747 captain. But, I know of t
wo RPA aircraft that have gone down in the pattern due to wrapped up turns t
o final, but am not aware of any who have perished from losing an engine in t
he pattern, so I=99m a strong advocate of a NOTSO tight pattern partic
ularly in multi ship formations with overshooting crosswinds where everyone r
olls out downwind with their interval on their nose and by the time Dash 4 i
s at the perch, he=99s not abeam the intended point of landing, he
=99s NEARLY OVER the intended point landing. We have vastly differing level
s of experience in our RPA community and the desire to hack it by some FNG
=99s has likely made for some exciting landings and probably a few lost c
omrades. Every time I go the southern route to our cabin in Colorado I pass
the airport at Walsenburg, CO and am saddened by the memory of the father a
nd son that perished there several years ago in their new Nanchang on the wa
y to OSH flying what was, for the density altitude and/or winds that day, to
o tight of a pattern. So, maybe when we start losing more aircraft in the p
attern from engine failures than from wrapped up approach turn stalls I
=99ll be more inclined to advocate the very tight pattern, until then I
=99ll stand by a 25-27 degree AOB, trimmed up, stabilized turn that yields c
onsistent and safe results.
>
> Sorry to diverge beyond landings themselves, but the pattern is where it a
ll begins.
>
> As not just an old LSO, but also a Naval Aviator, I can take it just as we
ll as I can dish it out. Hit me with your best shot!
>
> Mark Davis
> N44YK
> Former Garuda and Guntrain Paddles
>
> P.S. Before I completed this I saw Richard Hess=99s comments on air
speeds. They=99re the same I use. Bleeding off excess airspeed on sh
ort final is easy with the paddle blade prop.
>
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@ma
tronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Jaeger
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 9:22 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Reverse Rotation Denied!
>
> Well guys...the throttle-up technique worked 2 for 2 last night. But I als
o noticed that I was (probably) shutting down w/ my cylinder temp running a l
ittle on the hot side. So...more Yak lessons added to an already thick cours
e folder.
>
> NEW TOPIC: May I take a poll regarding approaches? I believe the 52 is a p
ooch to fly. But my landings are truly erratic. I know most pilots would n
ever admit these quirks (Above ALL else - LOOK SMOOTH) but I range from grea
sing it in, to 2.5G drops pretty routinely. 'Went up Tuesday and walked away
going "Wow. I think I've got this." 'Went up last night and went "Wow. No I
don't." In my limited experience, the Yak has spanked me hard enough to hum
ble me completely on numerous occasions. Now, I realize landings are a very p
ersonal aspect of flying. Some go full-stall while others maintain a little p
ower and fly down to the runway. Then it seems - no matter what your techniq
ue or experience - there are just "those" days. Watching AirVenture arrivals
leaps to mind. I'm sure some very capable pilots leave more rubber on 27 th
an they would've ever predicted. But I cannot and WILL not chime in w/ the r
unway-side "quarterbacks" critiquing all, while their bacon is planted squar
ely in a lawn chair. It's not my style to pump up my ego by delighting in th
e deflation of others'. That said...I want to learn. And since I believe in w
isdom and safety over pride - I ask. :)
>
> I've been tutored by some of the best, but their methods were often confli
cting. The following is an "average" account of what I do for an approach - a
lbeit based on limited experience and still a fairly steep learning curve:
>
> I fly a typical retractable pattern. On downwind I have been going to 80% p
ower, prop fine, carb heat on at the top of downwind, gear down abeam. By th
e time I'm ready to turn base I'm at about 85 knots. On base I have been bri
nging power back to 70% and maintaining 80 - 85 knots w/ my descent. As soon
as I roll wings level on final - probably 1/4 mile from the numbers, I dump
flaps. As I push the nose down this has me at about 75 - 80 knots, reduce p
ower to 60% and as I flair airspeed drops to about 70 and bleeds off. Anythi
ng slower - to me - feels very mushy.
>
> Now...if I have "ballast" in back, I've found that I can plant it at just a
bout any airspeed. But if I'm solo, it needs to be as slow and gentle as pos
sible or I have bounced back up - and more than once - gotten into some majo
rly-ugly oscillations that left me in a go-around situation w/ my vitals unc
omfortably elevated.
>
>
> Please talk to me. Guide me, experienced Yakkers...and as always - THANK Y
OU!
>
> Rico Jaeger
> 915 S. 11th Ave.
> Wausau, WI. 54401
> 715.529.7426
> //
> 1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
> N8558G //
> //
> 1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
> N21YK //
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
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| Subject: | Yak 50 Cowl pins |
I am looking for the rear cowl pins for a Yak 50. Will buy 2 sets if
they are available. They are pins that insert at the back of the cowl to
secure it; guessing for tail slides, etc. They set I have seen seem to
be a simple pin with an over-center lock.
Also looking for the following:
- Rear FOD barrier Yak 50
- Top Cowl =9Cresting pins=9D. They are pins that
stick up that you can rest the front cowl on when open.
I may also interested in additional Yak 50 parts available. Feel free to
send on whatever you may have.
Thanks!
Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell - 260.402.1740
Email: <mailto:todd@fastaircraft.com> todd@fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
Web: <http://www.fastaircraft.com/> www.fastaircraft.com &
<http://www.toddmccutchanairshows.com/> www.toddmccutchanairshows.com
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