Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:36 AM - A List Contribution - It's Your Personal Squelch Button... (Matt Dralle)
1. 05:48 AM - Removing Gills (ronpenrose)
2. 05:55 AM - Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it (ronpenrose)
3. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: loss of main air (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
4. 07:06 AM - Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it (yakxx21)
5. 07:22 AM - Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it (ronpenrose)
6. 07:37 AM - Re: Oil Tank Check Valve (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
7. 07:38 AM - Re: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it (A. Dennis Savarese)
8. 07:40 AM - Re: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it (A. Dennis Savarese)
9. 07:45 AM - Re: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
10. 07:52 AM - Re: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it (A. Dennis Savarese)
11. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
12. 09:08 AM - Re: Oil Tank Check Valve (Jan Mevis)
13. 09:49 AM - Re: Oil Tank Check Valve (Walter Lannon)
14. 09:59 AM - Re: Oil Tank Check Valve (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
15. 06:53 PM - Re: loss of main air (ronpenrose)
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| Subject: | A List Contribution - It's Your Personal Squelch Button... |
There is an automatic "squelch button" of sorts for the Fund Raiser messages.
Here's how it works... As soon as a List member makes a Contribution through
the Matronics Fund Raiser web site, their email address is automatically added
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Message 1
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Hi all. I am a relatively new Yak owner since July. I am in the process of dismantling
a few things for painting and having a problem figuring out how to remove
the gills framework. I have removed the prop and hub. I am thinking the snout
and the cast piece in front of gills needs to come off but cannot figure out
how to remove. I did remove the four bolts at the base of the snout but it
will not budge and cautious of using too much persuasion.
I have attached pic.
Any hints to going the last mile on this greatly appreciated.
--------
Ron Penrose
YAK-52 N352BW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433318#433318
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20141110_074357_282.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it |
I have same problem since temperature here has dropped below around nid 40's.
--------
Ron Penrose
YAK-52 N352BW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433319#433319
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| Subject: | Re: loss of main air |
If you don't care to use the brakes there is another way, but using the brakes
is a much better idea! Safer too!
My Yak-50 does not have air brakes, they have been converted to hydraulic toe brakes,
so I had to come up with a simple way to do what you are trying to do.
If you look at the pressure relief/pop-off valve that Dennis has described, you
will note that it is connected to an assembly of one way check valves with a
filter in the middle. This assembly looks like the letter "H" with a check valve
in each half leg of the letter "H". This is the central "meeting point"
of all the air line in the YAK-50. One line comes in from the engine air compressor
and goes through a check valve, another line comes in from the external
fill port, and goes through a check valve. Then you have lines going OUT of
the "H" each one ALSO through a check valve, and one of these goes to your
main air bottle and one of these goes to your emergency air bottle.
The two going OUT are most AWAY from the pressure relief/pop-off valve, I.E. they
are the two that are closest to the middle of the firewall and the two are
aligned vertically.
One line goes out going UP and the other line goes out coming DOWN. The question
is which goes to which, I ALWAYS forget.....so I have them MARKED in my airplane!
What you do is to carefully remove the safety wire to the lines that
screw onto the actual check valves. These are aluminum lines that you remove
with a wrench. You want to be very very careful here. If they are tight, do
not just put a wrench on these fittings and apply Gorilla force! You will end
up twisting the whole assembly, bending lines and fixtures in the process.
If you look closely you can see where you can put another wrench on the check
valve itself so that as you turn the one open end wrench, you can apply opposite
force on the other wrench to keep from bending the whole mess up!
Now realize that this whole thing is somewhat dangerous. You are messing with
lines that have OVER 800 PSI on them, if you have those bottles filled to "6"
on the gage, which represents 60 atmospheres. Wear goggles. Be careful. You
only want to crack open these lines just a tiny bit until you hear air hissing.
You can then slowly bleed down both the MAIN and the EMERGENCY bottles (one
fitting at a time) since if you have one filled to 60, you should have them
BOTH filled to 60, since the YAK-50 pressurizes both bottles from the engine compressor,
unlike the 52 which only fills the main bottle from the engine compressor.
Please exercise extreme caution when doing this... Or..... Better yet, let
an A&P do it.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2014 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: loss of main air
Turn the main air valve on and move the flaps up and down a few times.
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 11/9/2014 8:34 AM, yakxx21 wrote:
Oh..that's straight forward..thanks....
Is there any way to let the air out without putting the brake on and a
thousand times ??
Cheers
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433212#433212
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| Subject: | Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it |
why would temperature effect it ?....looking at the diagram it seems it can only
go back to the charging point (which its not) or leak around the tank itself
(cant see any soapy leaks) or lose something through the check valve going to
engine driven compressor and Im not sure how to check that
also im not sure if the SNOT valve would affect it if left open----or if not sealing
correctly....
finally I suppose I could change the pressure release rubber again....
frustrating
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433323#433323
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| Subject: | Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it |
Cold temperatures can cause a fitting to leak if conditions are right. Old rubber
seal will get hard or a fitting may leak if it has loosened a bit. Even though
the fittings are safetyed and should not loosen, I found some on my plan
where the safety had not been done correctly and had some slack and loosened
an eighth of a turn which was enough to cause leakage. I am going to check those
fittings from the tank to the blowoff valve and Tee on firewall. I do not
believe the snot valve and plumbing is a culprit since tank air pressure an plumbing
is independent of that area (I think!).
--------
Ron Penrose
YAK-52 N352BW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433325#433325
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| Subject: | Oil Tank Check Valve |
I agree with Walt on this one.
The originally designed Russian check valve does not work very well, and especially
after it gets some operating time on it. The P&W method seems much better
to me. I did not comment on the Porsche 911 check valve simply because there
is no data on its parameters. Maximum flow rates, etc. Without knowing the
design parameters, it would be simply crazy to stick that device into the main
oil supply line of a 9 cylinder radial aircraft engine.
Dennis and Gill are of course both correct.... there is indeed a spring loaded
ball check valve in the oil pump. I am curious how many readers of the YAK List
have tried the method described. I.E. Have taken the oil pump off, have sent
it to Jill & M-14P.com, had it refurbished and returned to service? Of those
that have, how many have come on the Yak List and reported that it fixed
the problem perfectly, that no more oil gets into the cylinders and hydraulic
lock has now been eliminated as a problem? AND FOR HOW LONG?
Possibly I missed the memo, but I have not seen any such reports, or feedback --
positive or negative -- from any folks at all. So if you're out there, please
speak up.
What I have seen is a ton of people (me included) that have taken alternative measures,
some of which might be considered to be "masking the root of the problem"
and some not. I mean, if you put something additional in place that stops
oil flow through the pump from the oil tank, you are not masking the problem,
you are stopping the problem. I believe in being careful before modifying
"original designs", but they are not sacrosanct otherwise I would not be running
those most excellent automobile plugs and wires Dennis came up with!
I have seen Doc's idea used a lot... a hose attached to the sump drain fitting
that is opened after flight, allowing the oil to drain right out and then be poured
right back into the engine. Color me strange, but in my case, once oil
comes out of the engine, I never pour it back in. Just some paranoia on my part,
I am sure! :-)
I have also seen Oil Shutoff Valves used QUITE a bit, even with the inherent danger
of what happens when you forget to turn them back on before starting. And
that includes those that have micro-switch interlocks on the start switch/button.
So, really when it comes right down to it, Robin Hou's thoughts are really not
far off the mark! Maybe not a Porsche 911 part, but never-the-less a better
designed part that does the same job as the one in the internal oil pump is SUPPOSED
to do right now. If for nothing else, the original valve is in an inaccessible
location, and taking oil pumps on and off on a regular basis is not
high on my list of good things to do either.
So ... bottom line..... what's wrong with the idea of adding an external valve,
such as are used on P&W engines described by Walt?
It dawns on me that it actually is a very good idea.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK & N66PW
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2014 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve
Well, I wonder about that.
Having lived with P&W radials for about 50 years and comparing the incidence of
hydraulic lock between P&W and the Ivchenko series engines I would guess the
ratio is somewhere around 1/100.
A major design difference lies in the location of the static oil flow check valve.
In P&W engines this valve is NOT integral to the oil pump. It is a relatively
large, lightly spring loaded, poppet style valve positioned immediately
downstream of the oil pressure outlet. It is readily removable for inspection.
With this installation it does not matter how the leakage oil gets through the
static pump (and it does!) it is stopped at that point. Of course if that valve
develops a leak hydraulic lock can be the result and it has happened but is
a pretty rare occurrence. Not the case with the M14 etc. it is almost to
be expected at some time in the life of the engine.
For what its worth I would suggest that the valve in the Ivchenko series is incapable
of preventing leakage flow through the pump in the static condition and
I think history has proved me correct.
Cheers;
Walt
From: A. Dennis Savarese <mailto:dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve
Gill is 100% correct. Any external shut off valve or additional check valve only
masks the root of the problem, which as Jill has so clearly stated in the Red
Star magazine, internally in the oil pump itself. Have Jill overhaul your
oil pump and refurbish the internal shut off valve in the oil pump.
Dennis
________________________________
From: Gill Gutierrez <gill.g@gpimail.com>
Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 11:09 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve
Robin,
There is already a spring check valve in the system.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Hou
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 3:48 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve
http://www.rothsport.com/Products/Engine/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves.htm
I am wondering if this check valve will work between our tank and engine to reduce the possibility of hydraulic lock? It is designed for Porsche air cool 911 engine which has a dry sump oil system. Here is a description of how this valve works from www.pelicanparts.com <http://www.pelicanparts.com/> :
"One of the common problems with classic 911s can be a plume of oil smoke from
your exhaust on start up. This is especially true for cars that do not get driven
regularly or have sat for a while. While this is not harmful to the engine
if after starting you get the engine up to operating temperature it can be quite
embarrassing. There is nothing worse than having all eyes on you as you step
into your 911 only to have a gigantic smoke screen come from the exhaust on
start up.
The majority of this smoke on startup comes from oil from the oil tank migrating
back into the motor. Rothsport has come up with an ingenuous solution to this
problem by designing an oil inlet check valve that restricts the flow of oil
back into the motor and opens instantly on start up. Installation is quick and
easy and a perfect solution for cars that sit for long periods of time. Note;
the valve is clearly marked with an engine side and a tank side. Failure to
install the check valve in the right orientation will lead to oil starvation and
catastrophic damage to your engine. Please make sure to read all the instructions
and double check the orientation of the valve when installing."
What do you think?
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it |
Try this:
- Fill the main and emergency air tanks
- Make sure the main air is off
- Write down the pressure in both tanks
- Squeeze the brakes until you can't hear any "swish" when you release
the brakes.
- Let the system sit overnight or at least 4 hours or so.
- Come back to the next morning and compare the pressure in both tanks
with what you wrote down yesterday. (Note: as the air in the tanks cool
down, the pressure will drop slightly. So take that into account)
- Now squeeze and release the brake handle again. If you hear any
"swish" at all when you release the brake handle, one or possibly both
of the air valves is leaking, even when shut off. Verify which take
side (main or emergency) has dropped further than the other. That
should be the air valve that is leaking.
The snot bottle is isolated from the main air tank by the check valve.
If the check valves are good, no air can come back to the check valve
from the main air bottle. If you leave the snot bottle open and the
check valve is leaking, there will be air coming out of the snot bottle
relief end. Wet your finger and open the snot bottle or put the tube on
the snot bottle in a container with water and watch for bubbles. If you
can feel the leak or see bubbles, the check valve is leaking.
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 11/10/2014 9:06 AM, yakxx21 wrote:
>
> why would temperature effect it ?....looking at the diagram it seems it can only
go back to the charging point (which its not) or leak around the tank itself
(cant see any soapy leaks) or lose something through the check valve going
to engine driven compressor and Im not sure how to check that
>
> also im not sure if the SNOT valve would affect it if left open----or if not
sealing correctly....
>
> finally I suppose I could change the pressure release rubber again....
>
> frustrating
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433323#433323
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it |
Over tightening the B-nuts also may cause the flare on the end of the
tubing to crack/split. Finding these are a real pain. The tubing in the
Yak's are very brittle. So if you remove a B-nut for any reason, don't
over tighten it when reinstalling.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 11/10/2014 9:21 AM, ronpenrose wrote:
>
> Cold temperatures can cause a fitting to leak if conditions are right. Old rubber
seal will get hard or a fitting may leak if it has loosened a bit. Even
though the fittings are safetyed and should not loosen, I found some on my plan
where the safety had not been done correctly and had some slack and loosened
an eighth of a turn which was enough to cause leakage. I am going to check
those fittings from the tank to the blowoff valve and Tee on firewall. I do not
believe the snot valve and plumbing is a culprit since tank air pressure an
plumbing is independent of that area (I think!).
>
> --------
> Ron Penrose
> YAK-52 N352BW
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433325#433325
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it |
After a day or two of not flying... open the snot valve. If you hear a loud hiss
of air, you more than likely have air leaking through the check valves and
back into the compressor line.
Next, use external air to fill both tanks. Then (one at a time) remove the lines
coming into the check valve assembly (described in a previous email) that
are coming from the engine compressor to the check valve assembly. If you want,
you can take a balloon and put it over the fitting of the check valve you
just removed the line from coming from the engine, to snot valve, to check valve
assembly. Tie it on there tight and leave it for a few hours and see if it
blows up.
If nothing happens, you can go back to the external fill port and put soapy water
there... look for air coming out the external fill port. This checks THAT
check valve. You could also take off the fitting going to the external fill
port at the check valve assembly and use the balloon trick again.
Realize if you have air coming out of EITHER of these, you also will a check valve
bad going to one of the two AIR tanks.
If you decide you have a check valve leaking, send all four to George Coy and his
son, and they will rebuild them for you.
That's a little bit of a start to get you going anyway.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yakxx21
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 10:06 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it
why would temperature effect it ?....looking at the diagram it seems it can only
go back to the charging point (which its not) or leak around the tank itself
(cant see any soapy leaks) or lose something through the check valve going to
engine driven compressor and Im not sure how to check that
also im not sure if the SNOT valve would affect it if left open----or if not sealing
correctly....
finally I suppose I could change the pressure release rubber again....
frustrating
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433323#433323
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it |
FWIW, the CJ6 check valves available from Doug Sapp are pretty much
identical to the check valves on the 50.
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 11/10/2014 9:45 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD wrote:
>
> After a day or two of not flying... open the snot valve. If you hear a loud
hiss of air, you more than likely have air leaking through the check valves and
back into the compressor line.
>
> Next, use external air to fill both tanks. Then (one at a time) remove the
lines coming into the check valve assembly (described in a previous email) that
are coming from the engine compressor to the check valve assembly. If you
want, you can take a balloon and put it over the fitting of the check valve you
just removed the line from coming from the engine, to snot valve, to check valve
assembly. Tie it on there tight and leave it for a few hours and see if
it blows up.
>
> If nothing happens, you can go back to the external fill port and put soapy water
there... look for air coming out the external fill port. This checks THAT
check valve. You could also take off the fitting going to the external fill
port at the check valve assembly and use the balloon trick again.
>
> Realize if you have air coming out of EITHER of these, you also will a check
valve bad going to one of the two AIR tanks.
>
> If you decide you have a check valve leaking, send all four to George Coy and
his son, and they will rebuild them for you.
>
>
> That's a little bit of a start to get you going anyway.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yakxx21
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 10:06 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it
>
>
> why would temperature effect it ?....looking at the diagram it seems it can only
go back to the charging point (which its not) or leak around the tank itself
(cant see any soapy leaks) or lose something through the check valve going
to engine driven compressor and Im not sure how to check that
>
> also im not sure if the SNOT valve would affect it if left open----or if not
sealing correctly....
>
> finally I suppose I could change the pressure release rubber again....
>
> frustrating
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433323#433323
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it |
This is news to me. I'd love to see pictures of one!
Realize that the 50 used two types of check valves during their construction periods.
Neither match those used on a 52. That makes no sense to me, but it is
what I have seen on four of them now.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it
FWIW, the CJ6 check valves available from Doug Sapp are pretty much identical to
the check valves on the 50.
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 11/10/2014 9:45 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD wrote:
After a day or two of not flying... open the snot valve. If you hear a loud
hiss of air, you more than likely have air leaking through the check valves and
back into the compressor line.
Next, use external air to fill both tanks. Then (one at a time) remove the lines
coming into the check valve assembly (described in a previous email) that
are coming from the engine compressor to the check valve assembly. If you want,
you can take a balloon and put it over the fitting of the check valve you
just removed the line from coming from the engine, to snot valve, to check valve
assembly. Tie it on there tight and leave it for a few hours and see if
it blows up.
If nothing happens, you can go back to the external fill port and put soapy water
there... look for air coming out the external fill port. This checks THAT
check valve. You could also take off the fitting going to the external fill
port at the check valve assembly and use the balloon trick again.
Realize if you have air coming out of EITHER of these, you also will a check valve
bad going to one of the two AIR tanks.
If you decide you have a check valve leaking, send all four to George Coy and
his son, and they will rebuild them for you.
That's a little bit of a start to get you going anyway.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yakxx21
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 10:06 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it
why would temperature effect it ?....looking at the diagram it seems it can only
go back to the charging point (which its not) or leak around the tank itself
(cant see any soapy leaks) or lose something through the check valve going
to engine driven compressor and Im not sure how to check that
also im not sure if the SNOT valve would affect it if left open----or if not sealing
correctly....
finally I suppose I could change the pressure release rubber again....
frustrating
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433323#433323
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Tank Check Valve |
I've connected permanently a hose to the reservoir, with a fast coupling
connection at the lower end.
It is reachable at the left side and I just connect (fast coupling from
high pressure hydraulics, aviation quality) another hose to a cannister.
So at the end of each flight, I immediately drain the oil from the main
reservoir.
Not difficult, it takes a few seconds to plug in the second hose and to
open the tap (even without lifting the engine cowling).
Easy system, not expensive, no modification to the original.
Jan
Yak 50 F-AZUK
On 10/11/14 16:37, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>I agree with Walt on this one.
>
>The originally designed Russian check valve does not work very well, and
>especially after it gets some operating time on it. The P&W method seems
>much better to me. I did not comment on the Porsche 911 check valve
>simply because there is no data on its parameters. Maximum flow rates,
>etc. Without knowing the design parameters, it would be simply crazy to
>stick that device into the main oil supply line of a 9 cylinder radial
>aircraft engine.
>
>Dennis and Gill are of course both correct.... there is indeed a spring
>loaded ball check valve in the oil pump. I am curious how many readers
>of the YAK List have tried the method described. I.E. Have taken the
>oil pump off, have sent it to Jill & M-14P.com, had it refurbished and
>returned to service? Of those that have, how many have come on the Yak
>List and reported that it fixed the problem perfectly, that no more oil
>gets into the cylinders and hydraulic lock has now been eliminated as a
>problem? AND FOR HOW LONG?
>
>Possibly I missed the memo, but I have not seen any such reports, or
>feedback -- positive or negative -- from any folks at all. So if you're
>out there, please speak up.
>
>What I have seen is a ton of people (me included) that have taken
>alternative measures, some of which might be considered to be "masking
>the root of the problem" and some not. I mean, if you put something
>additional in place that stops oil flow through the pump from the oil
>tank, you are not masking the problem, you are stopping the problem. I
>believe in being careful before modifying "original designs", but they
>are not sacrosanct otherwise I would not be running those most excellent
>automobile plugs and wires Dennis came up with!
>
>I have seen Doc's idea used a lot... a hose attached to the sump drain
>fitting that is opened after flight, allowing the oil to drain right out
>and then be poured right back into the engine. Color me strange, but in
>my case, once oil comes out of the engine, I never pour it back in. Just
>some paranoia on my part, I am sure! :-)
>
>I have also seen Oil Shutoff Valves used QUITE a bit, even with the
>inherent danger of what happens when you forget to turn them back on
>before starting. And that includes those that have micro-switch
>interlocks on the start switch/button.
>
>So, really when it comes right down to it, Robin Hou's thoughts are
>really not far off the mark! Maybe not a Porsche 911 part, but
>never-the-less a better designed part that does the same job as the one
>in the internal oil pump is SUPPOSED to do right now. If for nothing
>else, the original valve is in an inaccessible location, and taking oil
>pumps on and off on a regular basis is not high on my list of good things
>to do either.
>
>So ... bottom line..... what's wrong with the idea of adding an external
>valve, such as are used on P&W engines described by Walt?
>
>It dawns on me that it actually is a very good idea.
>
>Mark Bitterlich
>N50YK & N66PW
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Tank Check Valve |
Mark;
Sounds like I may have screwed up my description of the P&W valve. The
valve is external to the oil pump (unlike the Russian design) but is not
external to the engine! It is actually located in the pressure screen
housing and may be removed for inspection whenever the screen is removed.
Walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 7:37 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I agree with Walt on this one.
The originally designed Russian check valve does not work very well, and
especially after it gets some operating time on it. The P&W method seems
much better to me. I did not comment on the Porsche 911 check valve simply
because there is no data on its parameters. Maximum flow rates, etc.
Without knowing the design parameters, it would be simply crazy to stick
that device into the main oil supply line of a 9 cylinder radial aircraft
engine.
Dennis and Gill are of course both correct.... there is indeed a spring
loaded ball check valve in the oil pump. I am curious how many readers of
the YAK List have tried the method described. I.E. Have taken the oil pump
off, have sent it to Jill & M-14P.com, had it refurbished and returned to
service? Of those that have, how many have come on the Yak List and
reported that it fixed the problem perfectly, that no more oil gets into the
cylinders and hydraulic lock has now been eliminated as a problem? AND FOR
HOW LONG?
Possibly I missed the memo, but I have not seen any such reports, or
feedback -- positive or negative -- from any folks at all. So if you're out
there, please speak up.
What I have seen is a ton of people (me included) that have taken
alternative measures, some of which might be considered to be "masking the
root of the problem" and some not. I mean, if you put something additional
in place that stops oil flow through the pump from the oil tank, you are not
masking the problem, you are stopping the problem. I believe in being
careful before modifying "original designs", but they are not sacrosanct
otherwise I would not be running those most excellent automobile plugs and
wires Dennis came up with!
I have seen Doc's idea used a lot... a hose attached to the sump drain
fitting that is opened after flight, allowing the oil to drain right out and
then be poured right back into the engine. Color me strange, but in my
case, once oil comes out of the engine, I never pour it back in. Just some
paranoia on my part, I am sure! :-)
I have also seen Oil Shutoff Valves used QUITE a bit, even with the inherent
danger of what happens when you forget to turn them back on before starting.
And that includes those that have micro-switch interlocks on the start
switch/button.
So, really when it comes right down to it, Robin Hou's thoughts are really
not far off the mark! Maybe not a Porsche 911 part, but never-the-less a
better designed part that does the same job as the one in the internal oil
pump is SUPPOSED to do right now. If for nothing else, the original valve
is in an inaccessible location, and taking oil pumps on and off on a regular
basis is not high on my list of good things to do either.
So ... bottom line..... what's wrong with the idea of adding an external
valve, such as are used on P&W engines described by Walt?
It dawns on me that it actually is a very good idea.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK & N66PW
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2014 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve
Well, I wonder about that.
Having lived with P&W radials for about 50 years and comparing the incidence
of hydraulic lock between P&W and the Ivchenko series engines I would guess
the ratio is somewhere around 1/100.
A major design difference lies in the location of the static oil flow check
valve. In P&W engines this valve is NOT integral to the oil pump. It is a
relatively large, lightly spring loaded, poppet style valve positioned
immediately downstream of the oil pressure outlet. It is readily removable
for inspection.
With this installation it does not matter how the leakage oil gets through
the static pump (and it does!) it is stopped at that point. Of course if
that valve develops a leak hydraulic lock can be the result and it has
happened but is a pretty rare occurrence. Not the case with the M14 etc.
it is almost to be expected at some time in the life of the engine.
For what its worth I would suggest that the valve in the Ivchenko series is
incapable of preventing leakage flow through the pump in the static
condition and I think history has proved me correct.
Cheers;
Walt
From: A. Dennis Savarese <mailto:dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve
Gill is 100% correct. Any external shut off valve or additional check valve
only masks the root of the problem, which as Jill has so clearly stated in
the Red Star magazine, internally in the oil pump itself. Have Jill
overhaul your oil pump and refurbish the internal shut off valve in the oil
pump.
Dennis
________________________________
From: Gill Gutierrez <gill.g@gpimail.com>
Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 11:09 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve
Robin,
There is already a spring check valve in the system.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Hou
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 3:48 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve
http://www.rothsport.com/Products/Engine/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves.htm
I am wondering if this check valve will work between our tank and engine to
reduce the possibility of hydraulic lock? It is designed for Porsche air
cool 911 engine which has a dry sump oil system. Here is a description of
how this valve works from www.pelicanparts.com
<http://www.pelicanparts.com/> :
"One of the common problems with classic 911s can be a plume of oil smoke
from your exhaust on start up. This is especially true for cars that do not
get driven regularly or have sat for a while. While this is not harmful to
the engine if after starting you get the engine up to operating temperature
it can be quite embarrassing. There is nothing worse than having all eyes on
you as you step into your 911 only to have a gigantic smoke screen come from
the exhaust on start up.
The majority of this smoke on startup comes from oil from the oil tank
migrating back into the motor. Rothsport has come up with an ingenuous
solution to this problem by designing an oil inlet check valve that
restricts the flow of oil back into the motor and opens instantly on start
up. Installation is quick and easy and a perfect solution for cars that sit
for long periods of time. Note; the valve is clearly marked with an engine
side and a tank side. Failure to install the check valve in the right
orientation will lead to oil starvation and catastrophic damage to your
engine. Please make sure to read all the instructions and double check the
orientation of the valve when installing."
What do you think?
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| Subject: | Oil Tank Check Valve |
OH!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve
Mark;
Sounds like I may have screwed up my description of the P&W valve. The
valve is external to the oil pump (unlike the Russian design) but is not external
to the engine! It is actually located in the pressure screen housing and may
be removed for inspection whenever the screen is removed.
Walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 7:37 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I agree with Walt on this one.
The originally designed Russian check valve does not work very well, and especially
after it gets some operating time on it. The P&W method seems much better
to me. I did not comment on the Porsche 911 check valve simply because there
is no data on its parameters. Maximum flow rates, etc.
Without knowing the design parameters, it would be simply crazy to stick that device
into the main oil supply line of a 9 cylinder radial aircraft engine.
Dennis and Gill are of course both correct.... there is indeed a spring loaded
ball check valve in the oil pump. I am curious how many readers of the YAK List
have tried the method described. I.E. Have taken the oil pump off, have sent
it to Jill & M-14P.com, had it refurbished and returned to
service? Of those that have, how many have come on the Yak List and
reported that it fixed the problem perfectly, that no more oil gets into the cylinders
and hydraulic lock has now been eliminated as a problem? AND FOR HOW
LONG?
Possibly I missed the memo, but I have not seen any such reports, or feedback --
positive or negative -- from any folks at all. So if you're out there, please
speak up.
What I have seen is a ton of people (me included) that have taken alternative measures,
some of which might be considered to be "masking the
root of the problem" and some not. I mean, if you put something additional
in place that stops oil flow through the pump from the oil tank, you are not masking
the problem, you are stopping the problem. I believe in being careful before
modifying "original designs", but they are not sacrosanct otherwise I would
not be running those most excellent automobile plugs and wires Dennis came
up with!
I have seen Doc's idea used a lot... a hose attached to the sump drain fitting
that is opened after flight, allowing the oil to drain right out and
then be poured right back into the engine. Color me strange, but in my
case, once oil comes out of the engine, I never pour it back in. Just some paranoia
on my part, I am sure! :-)
I have also seen Oil Shutoff Valves used QUITE a bit, even with the inherent danger
of what happens when you forget to turn them back on before starting.
And that includes those that have micro-switch interlocks on the start switch/button.
So, really when it comes right down to it, Robin Hou's thoughts are really
not far off the mark! Maybe not a Porsche 911 part, but never-the-less a
better designed part that does the same job as the one in the internal oil
pump is SUPPOSED to do right now. If for nothing else, the original valve
is in an inaccessible location, and taking oil pumps on and off on a regular basis
is not high on my list of good things to do either.
So ... bottom line..... what's wrong with the idea of adding an external valve,
such as are used on P&W engines described by Walt?
It dawns on me that it actually is a very good idea.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK & N66PW
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2014 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve
Well, I wonder about that.
Having lived with P&W radials for about 50 years and comparing the incidence of
hydraulic lock between P&W and the Ivchenko series engines I would guess the
ratio is somewhere around 1/100.
A major design difference lies in the location of the static oil flow check
valve. In P&W engines this valve is NOT integral to the oil pump. It is a
relatively large, lightly spring loaded, poppet style valve positioned immediately
downstream of the oil pressure outlet. It is readily removable for inspection.
With this installation it does not matter how the leakage oil gets through
the static pump (and it does!) it is stopped at that point. Of course if
that valve develops a leak hydraulic lock can be the result and it has
happened but is a pretty rare occurrence. Not the case with the M14 etc.
it is almost to be expected at some time in the life of the engine.
For what its worth I would suggest that the valve in the Ivchenko series is incapable
of preventing leakage flow through the pump in the static condition and
I think history has proved me correct.
Cheers;
Walt
From: A. Dennis Savarese <mailto:dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve
Gill is 100% correct. Any external shut off valve or additional check valve only
masks the root of the problem, which as Jill has so clearly stated in the Red
Star magazine, internally in the oil pump itself. Have Jill overhaul your
oil pump and refurbish the internal shut off valve in the oil pump.
Dennis
________________________________
From: Gill Gutierrez <gill.g@gpimail.com>
Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 11:09 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve
Robin,
There is already a spring check valve in the system.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Hou
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 3:48 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve
http://www.rothsport.com/Products/Engine/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves.htm
I am wondering if this check valve will work between our tank and engine to reduce the possibility of hydraulic lock? It is designed for Porsche air cool 911 engine which has a dry sump oil system. Here is a description of how this valve works from www.pelicanparts.com <http://www.pelicanparts.com/> :
"One of the common problems with classic 911s can be a plume of oil smoke from
your exhaust on start up. This is especially true for cars that do not get driven
regularly or have sat for a while. While this is not harmful to the engine
if after starting you get the engine up to operating temperature it can be quite
embarrassing. There is nothing worse than having all eyes on you as you step
into your 911 only to have a gigantic smoke screen come from the exhaust on
start up.
The majority of this smoke on startup comes from oil from the oil tank migrating
back into the motor. Rothsport has come up with an ingenuous solution to this
problem by designing an oil inlet check valve that restricts the flow of oil
back into the motor and opens instantly on start up. Installation is quick and
easy and a perfect solution for cars that sit for long periods of time. Note;
the valve is clearly marked with an engine side and a tank side. Failure to
install the check valve in the right orientation will lead to oil starvation and
catastrophic damage to your engine. Please make sure to read all the instructions
and double check the orientation of the valve when installing."
What do you think?
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
www.mypilotstore.com
www.mrrace.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
www.aeroelectric.com
rel=nofollow target=_blank HomebuiltHELP hr*>wofollow" target="_blank"
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">hw" target="_blank"
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: loss of main air |
Phil, I had nearly identical situation recently. After contacting Dennis he suggested
I first look from compressor to snot. In short the problem was leeking
banjo fitting and b nut at other end attaching to snot valve. Tightened both and
I am now getting 50 bars.
--------
Ron Penrose
YAK-52 N352BW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433369#433369
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