---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/10/14: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:36 AM - A List Contribution - It's Your Personal Squelch Button... (Matt Dralle) 1. 05:48 AM - Removing Gills (ronpenrose) 2. 05:55 AM - Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it (ronpenrose) 3. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: loss of main air (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD) 4. 07:06 AM - Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it (yakxx21) 5. 07:22 AM - Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it (ronpenrose) 6. 07:37 AM - Re: Oil Tank Check Valve (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD) 7. 07:38 AM - Re: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it (A. Dennis Savarese) 8. 07:40 AM - Re: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it (A. Dennis Savarese) 9. 07:45 AM - Re: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD) 10. 07:52 AM - Re: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it (A. Dennis Savarese) 11. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD) 12. 09:08 AM - Re: Oil Tank Check Valve (Jan Mevis) 13. 09:49 AM - Re: Oil Tank Check Valve (Walter Lannon) 14. 09:59 AM - Re: Oil Tank Check Valve (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD) 15. 06:53 PM - Re: loss of main air (ronpenrose) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:36:32 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Yak-List: A List Contribution - It's Your Personal Squelch Button... There is an automatic "squelch button" of sorts for the Fund Raiser messages. Here's how it works... As soon as a List member makes a Contribution through the Matronics Fund Raiser web site, their email address is automatically added to this year's Contributor List and they instantly cease to receive further Fund Raiser messages for the rest of the month! Its just that simple! :-) I really do appreciate each and every one of your individual Contributions to support the Lists. It is your support that enables me to upgrade the hardware and software that are required to run a List Site such as this one. It also goes to pay for the commercial-grade Internet connection and to pay the huge electric bill to keep the computer gear running and the air conditioner powered on. I run all of the Matronics Email List and Forums sites here locally which allows me to control and monitor every aspect of the system for the utmost in reliably and performance. Your personal Contribution matters because, when combined with other Listers such as yourself, it pays the bills to keep this site up and running. I accept exactly ZERO advertising dollars for the Matronics Lists sites. I can't stand the pop-up ads and all other commercials that are so prevalent on the Internet these days and I particularly don't want to have it on my Email List sites. If you appreciate the ad-free, grass-roots, down-home feel of the Matronics Email Lists, please make a Contribution to keep it that way!! http://www.matronics.com/contribution or, you can send a personal check to the following address: Matronics / Matt Dralle 581 Jeannie Way Livermore, CA 94550 Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [Note that there are certain circumstances where you might still see a Contribution related message. For example, if someone replies to one of the messages, when using the List Browse feature, or when accessing List message via the Forum. The system keys on the given email address and since most of these are anonymous public access methods, there is no simple way to filter them.] ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:22 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Removing Gills From: "ronpenrose" Hi all. I am a relatively new Yak owner since July. I am in the process of dismantling a few things for painting and having a problem figuring out how to remove the gills framework. I have removed the prop and hub. I am thinking the snout and the cast piece in front of gills needs to come off but cannot figure out how to remove. I did remove the four bolts at the base of the snout but it will not budge and cautious of using too much persuasion. I have attached pic. Any hints to going the last mile on this greatly appreciated. -------- Ron Penrose YAK-52 N352BW Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433318#433318 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20141110_074357_282.jpg ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:01 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it From: "ronpenrose" I have same problem since temperature here has dropped below around nid 40's. -------- Ron Penrose YAK-52 N352BW Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433319#433319 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:32 AM PST US From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: loss of main air If you don't care to use the brakes there is another way, but using the brakes is a much better idea! Safer too! My Yak-50 does not have air brakes, they have been converted to hydraulic toe brakes, so I had to come up with a simple way to do what you are trying to do. If you look at the pressure relief/pop-off valve that Dennis has described, you will note that it is connected to an assembly of one way check valves with a filter in the middle. This assembly looks like the letter "H" with a check valve in each half leg of the letter "H". This is the central "meeting point" of all the air line in the YAK-50. One line comes in from the engine air compressor and goes through a check valve, another line comes in from the external fill port, and goes through a check valve. Then you have lines going OUT of the "H" each one ALSO through a check valve, and one of these goes to your main air bottle and one of these goes to your emergency air bottle. The two going OUT are most AWAY from the pressure relief/pop-off valve, I.E. they are the two that are closest to the middle of the firewall and the two are aligned vertically. One line goes out going UP and the other line goes out coming DOWN. The question is which goes to which, I ALWAYS forget.....so I have them MARKED in my airplane! What you do is to carefully remove the safety wire to the lines that screw onto the actual check valves. These are aluminum lines that you remove with a wrench. You want to be very very careful here. If they are tight, do not just put a wrench on these fittings and apply Gorilla force! You will end up twisting the whole assembly, bending lines and fixtures in the process. If you look closely you can see where you can put another wrench on the check valve itself so that as you turn the one open end wrench, you can apply opposite force on the other wrench to keep from bending the whole mess up! Now realize that this whole thing is somewhat dangerous. You are messing with lines that have OVER 800 PSI on them, if you have those bottles filled to "6" on the gage, which represents 60 atmospheres. Wear goggles. Be careful. You only want to crack open these lines just a tiny bit until you hear air hissing. You can then slowly bleed down both the MAIN and the EMERGENCY bottles (one fitting at a time) since if you have one filled to 60, you should have them BOTH filled to 60, since the YAK-50 pressurizes both bottles from the engine compressor, unlike the 52 which only fills the main bottle from the engine compressor. Please exercise extreme caution when doing this... Or..... Better yet, let an A&P do it. Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2014 9:42 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: loss of main air Turn the main air valve on and move the flaps up and down a few times. A. Dennis Savarese 334-546-8182 (mobile) www.yak-52.com Skype - Yakguy1 On 11/9/2014 8:34 AM, yakxx21 wrote: Oh..that's straight forward..thanks.... Is there any way to let the air out without putting the brake on and a thousand times ?? Cheers Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433212#433212 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:45 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it From: "yakxx21" why would temperature effect it ?....looking at the diagram it seems it can only go back to the charging point (which its not) or leak around the tank itself (cant see any soapy leaks) or lose something through the check valve going to engine driven compressor and Im not sure how to check that also im not sure if the SNOT valve would affect it if left open----or if not sealing correctly.... finally I suppose I could change the pressure release rubber again.... frustrating Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433323#433323 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:01 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it From: "ronpenrose" Cold temperatures can cause a fitting to leak if conditions are right. Old rubber seal will get hard or a fitting may leak if it has loosened a bit. Even though the fittings are safetyed and should not loosen, I found some on my plan where the safety had not been done correctly and had some slack and loosened an eighth of a turn which was enough to cause leakage. I am going to check those fittings from the tank to the blowoff valve and Tee on firewall. I do not believe the snot valve and plumbing is a culprit since tank air pressure an plumbing is independent of that area (I think!). -------- Ron Penrose YAK-52 N352BW Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433325#433325 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:41 AM PST US From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve I agree with Walt on this one. The originally designed Russian check valve does not work very well, and especially after it gets some operating time on it. The P&W method seems much better to me. I did not comment on the Porsche 911 check valve simply because there is no data on its parameters. Maximum flow rates, etc. Without knowing the design parameters, it would be simply crazy to stick that device into the main oil supply line of a 9 cylinder radial aircraft engine. Dennis and Gill are of course both correct.... there is indeed a spring loaded ball check valve in the oil pump. I am curious how many readers of the YAK List have tried the method described. I.E. Have taken the oil pump off, have sent it to Jill & M-14P.com, had it refurbished and returned to service? Of those that have, how many have come on the Yak List and reported that it fixed the problem perfectly, that no more oil gets into the cylinders and hydraulic lock has now been eliminated as a problem? AND FOR HOW LONG? Possibly I missed the memo, but I have not seen any such reports, or feedback -- positive or negative -- from any folks at all. So if you're out there, please speak up. What I have seen is a ton of people (me included) that have taken alternative measures, some of which might be considered to be "masking the root of the problem" and some not. I mean, if you put something additional in place that stops oil flow through the pump from the oil tank, you are not masking the problem, you are stopping the problem. I believe in being careful before modifying "original designs", but they are not sacrosanct otherwise I would not be running those most excellent automobile plugs and wires Dennis came up with! I have seen Doc's idea used a lot... a hose attached to the sump drain fitting that is opened after flight, allowing the oil to drain right out and then be poured right back into the engine. Color me strange, but in my case, once oil comes out of the engine, I never pour it back in. Just some paranoia on my part, I am sure! :-) I have also seen Oil Shutoff Valves used QUITE a bit, even with the inherent danger of what happens when you forget to turn them back on before starting. And that includes those that have micro-switch interlocks on the start switch/button. So, really when it comes right down to it, Robin Hou's thoughts are really not far off the mark! Maybe not a Porsche 911 part, but never-the-less a better designed part that does the same job as the one in the internal oil pump is SUPPOSED to do right now. If for nothing else, the original valve is in an inaccessible location, and taking oil pumps on and off on a regular basis is not high on my list of good things to do either. So ... bottom line..... what's wrong with the idea of adding an external valve, such as are used on P&W engines described by Walt? It dawns on me that it actually is a very good idea. Mark Bitterlich N50YK & N66PW -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2014 12:29 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve Well, I wonder about that. Having lived with P&W radials for about 50 years and comparing the incidence of hydraulic lock between P&W and the Ivchenko series engines I would guess the ratio is somewhere around 1/100. A major design difference lies in the location of the static oil flow check valve. In P&W engines this valve is NOT integral to the oil pump. It is a relatively large, lightly spring loaded, poppet style valve positioned immediately downstream of the oil pressure outlet. It is readily removable for inspection. With this installation it does not matter how the leakage oil gets through the static pump (and it does!) it is stopped at that point. Of course if that valve develops a leak hydraulic lock can be the result and it has happened but is a pretty rare occurrence. Not the case with the M14 etc. it is almost to be expected at some time in the life of the engine. For what its worth I would suggest that the valve in the Ivchenko series is incapable of preventing leakage flow through the pump in the static condition and I think history has proved me correct. Cheers; Walt From: A. Dennis Savarese Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 9:16 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve Gill is 100% correct. Any external shut off valve or additional check valve only masks the root of the problem, which as Jill has so clearly stated in the Red Star magazine, internally in the oil pump itself. Have Jill overhaul your oil pump and refurbish the internal shut off valve in the oil pump. Dennis ________________________________ From: Gill Gutierrez Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve Robin, There is already a spring check valve in the system. Gill From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Hou Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 3:48 PM Subject: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve http://www.rothsport.com/Products/Engine/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves.htm I am wondering if this check valve will work between our tank and engine to reduce the possibility of hydraulic lock? It is designed for Porsche air cool 911 engine which has a dry sump oil system. Here is a description of how this valve works from www.pelicanparts.com : "One of the common problems with classic 911s can be a plume of oil smoke from your exhaust on start up. This is especially true for cars that do not get driven regularly or have sat for a while. While this is not harmful to the engine if after starting you get the engine up to operating temperature it can be quite embarrassing. There is nothing worse than having all eyes on you as you step into your 911 only to have a gigantic smoke screen come from the exhaust on start up. The majority of this smoke on startup comes from oil from the oil tank migrating back into the motor. Rothsport has come up with an ingenuous solution to this problem by designing an oil inlet check valve that restricts the flow of oil back into the motor and opens instantly on start up. Installation is quick and easy and a perfect solution for cars that sit for long periods of time. Note; the valve is clearly marked with an engine side and a tank side. Failure to install the check valve in the right orientation will lead to oil starvation and catastrophic damage to your engine. Please make sure to read all the instructions and double check the orientation of the valve when installing." What do you think? www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com www.mypilotstore.com www.mrrace.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List http://forums.matronics.com www.aeroelectric.com rel=nofollow target=_blank HomebuiltHELP hr*>wofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">hw" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">h href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.mypilotstore.com">www.mypilotstore.com href="http://www.mrrace.com">www.mrrace.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:37 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it Try this: - Fill the main and emergency air tanks - Make sure the main air is off - Write down the pressure in both tanks - Squeeze the brakes until you can't hear any "swish" when you release the brakes. - Let the system sit overnight or at least 4 hours or so. - Come back to the next morning and compare the pressure in both tanks with what you wrote down yesterday. (Note: as the air in the tanks cool down, the pressure will drop slightly. So take that into account) - Now squeeze and release the brake handle again. If you hear any "swish" at all when you release the brake handle, one or possibly both of the air valves is leaking, even when shut off. Verify which take side (main or emergency) has dropped further than the other. That should be the air valve that is leaking. The snot bottle is isolated from the main air tank by the check valve. If the check valves are good, no air can come back to the check valve from the main air bottle. If you leave the snot bottle open and the check valve is leaking, there will be air coming out of the snot bottle relief end. Wet your finger and open the snot bottle or put the tube on the snot bottle in a container with water and watch for bubbles. If you can feel the leak or see bubbles, the check valve is leaking. A. Dennis Savarese 334-546-8182 (mobile) www.yak-52.com Skype - Yakguy1 On 11/10/2014 9:06 AM, yakxx21 wrote: > > why would temperature effect it ?....looking at the diagram it seems it can only go back to the charging point (which its not) or leak around the tank itself (cant see any soapy leaks) or lose something through the check valve going to engine driven compressor and Im not sure how to check that > > also im not sure if the SNOT valve would affect it if left open----or if not sealing correctly.... > > finally I suppose I could change the pressure release rubber again.... > > frustrating > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433323#433323 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:35 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it Over tightening the B-nuts also may cause the flare on the end of the tubing to crack/split. Finding these are a real pain. The tubing in the Yak's are very brittle. So if you remove a B-nut for any reason, don't over tighten it when reinstalling. Dennis A. Dennis Savarese 334-546-8182 (mobile) www.yak-52.com Skype - Yakguy1 On 11/10/2014 9:21 AM, ronpenrose wrote: > > Cold temperatures can cause a fitting to leak if conditions are right. Old rubber seal will get hard or a fitting may leak if it has loosened a bit. Even though the fittings are safetyed and should not loosen, I found some on my plan where the safety had not been done correctly and had some slack and loosened an eighth of a turn which was enough to cause leakage. I am going to check those fittings from the tank to the blowoff valve and Tee on firewall. I do not believe the snot valve and plumbing is a culprit since tank air pressure an plumbing is independent of that area (I think!). > > -------- > Ron Penrose > YAK-52 N352BW > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433325#433325 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:30 AM PST US From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it After a day or two of not flying... open the snot valve. If you hear a loud hiss of air, you more than likely have air leaking through the check valves and back into the compressor line. Next, use external air to fill both tanks. Then (one at a time) remove the lines coming into the check valve assembly (described in a previous email) that are coming from the engine compressor to the check valve assembly. If you want, you can take a balloon and put it over the fitting of the check valve you just removed the line from coming from the engine, to snot valve, to check valve assembly. Tie it on there tight and leave it for a few hours and see if it blows up. If nothing happens, you can go back to the external fill port and put soapy water there... look for air coming out the external fill port. This checks THAT check valve. You could also take off the fitting going to the external fill port at the check valve assembly and use the balloon trick again. Realize if you have air coming out of EITHER of these, you also will a check valve bad going to one of the two AIR tanks. If you decide you have a check valve leaking, send all four to George Coy and his son, and they will rebuild them for you. That's a little bit of a start to get you going anyway. Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yakxx21 Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 10:06 AM Subject: Yak-List: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it why would temperature effect it ?....looking at the diagram it seems it can only go back to the charging point (which its not) or leak around the tank itself (cant see any soapy leaks) or lose something through the check valve going to engine driven compressor and Im not sure how to check that also im not sure if the SNOT valve would affect it if left open----or if not sealing correctly.... finally I suppose I could change the pressure release rubber again.... frustrating Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433323#433323 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:36 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it FWIW, the CJ6 check valves available from Doug Sapp are pretty much identical to the check valves on the 50. A. Dennis Savarese 334-546-8182 (mobile) www.yak-52.com Skype - Yakguy1 On 11/10/2014 9:45 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD wrote: > > After a day or two of not flying... open the snot valve. If you hear a loud hiss of air, you more than likely have air leaking through the check valves and back into the compressor line. > > Next, use external air to fill both tanks. Then (one at a time) remove the lines coming into the check valve assembly (described in a previous email) that are coming from the engine compressor to the check valve assembly. If you want, you can take a balloon and put it over the fitting of the check valve you just removed the line from coming from the engine, to snot valve, to check valve assembly. Tie it on there tight and leave it for a few hours and see if it blows up. > > If nothing happens, you can go back to the external fill port and put soapy water there... look for air coming out the external fill port. This checks THAT check valve. You could also take off the fitting going to the external fill port at the check valve assembly and use the balloon trick again. > > Realize if you have air coming out of EITHER of these, you also will a check valve bad going to one of the two AIR tanks. > > If you decide you have a check valve leaking, send all four to George Coy and his son, and they will rebuild them for you. > > > That's a little bit of a start to get you going anyway. > > Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yakxx21 > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 10:06 AM > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: Yak-List: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it > > > why would temperature effect it ?....looking at the diagram it seems it can only go back to the charging point (which its not) or leak around the tank itself (cant see any soapy leaks) or lose something through the check valve going to engine driven compressor and Im not sure how to check that > > also im not sure if the SNOT valve would affect it if left open----or if not sealing correctly.... > > finally I suppose I could change the pressure release rubber again.... > > frustrating > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433323#433323 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:58 AM PST US From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it This is news to me. I'd love to see pictures of one! Realize that the 50 used two types of check valves during their construction periods. Neither match those used on a 52. That makes no sense to me, but it is what I have seen on four of them now. Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 10:52 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it FWIW, the CJ6 check valves available from Doug Sapp are pretty much identical to the check valves on the 50. A. Dennis Savarese 334-546-8182 (mobile) www.yak-52.com Skype - Yakguy1 On 11/10/2014 9:45 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD wrote: After a day or two of not flying... open the snot valve. If you hear a loud hiss of air, you more than likely have air leaking through the check valves and back into the compressor line. Next, use external air to fill both tanks. Then (one at a time) remove the lines coming into the check valve assembly (described in a previous email) that are coming from the engine compressor to the check valve assembly. If you want, you can take a balloon and put it over the fitting of the check valve you just removed the line from coming from the engine, to snot valve, to check valve assembly. Tie it on there tight and leave it for a few hours and see if it blows up. If nothing happens, you can go back to the external fill port and put soapy water there... look for air coming out the external fill port. This checks THAT check valve. You could also take off the fitting going to the external fill port at the check valve assembly and use the balloon trick again. Realize if you have air coming out of EITHER of these, you also will a check valve bad going to one of the two AIR tanks. If you decide you have a check valve leaking, send all four to George Coy and his son, and they will rebuild them for you. That's a little bit of a start to get you going anyway. Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yakxx21 Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 10:06 AM To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Yak-List: Re: Very slow air leak...how to find it why would temperature effect it ?....looking at the diagram it seems it can only go back to the charging point (which its not) or leak around the tank itself (cant see any soapy leaks) or lose something through the check valve going to engine driven compressor and Im not sure how to check that also im not sure if the SNOT valve would affect it if left open----or if not sealing correctly.... finally I suppose I could change the pressure release rubber again.... frustrating Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433323#433323 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:34 AM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve From: Jan Mevis I've connected permanently a hose to the reservoir, with a fast coupling connection at the lower end. It is reachable at the left side and I just connect (fast coupling from high pressure hydraulics, aviation quality) another hose to a cannister. So at the end of each flight, I immediately drain the oil from the main reservoir. Not difficult, it takes a few seconds to plug in the second hose and to open the tap (even without lifting the engine cowling). Easy system, not expensive, no modification to the original. Jan Yak 50 F-AZUK On 10/11/14 16:37, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" wrote: > > >I agree with Walt on this one. > >The originally designed Russian check valve does not work very well, and >especially after it gets some operating time on it. The P&W method seems >much better to me. I did not comment on the Porsche 911 check valve >simply because there is no data on its parameters. Maximum flow rates, >etc. Without knowing the design parameters, it would be simply crazy to >stick that device into the main oil supply line of a 9 cylinder radial >aircraft engine. > >Dennis and Gill are of course both correct.... there is indeed a spring >loaded ball check valve in the oil pump. I am curious how many readers >of the YAK List have tried the method described. I.E. Have taken the >oil pump off, have sent it to Jill & M-14P.com, had it refurbished and >returned to service? Of those that have, how many have come on the Yak >List and reported that it fixed the problem perfectly, that no more oil >gets into the cylinders and hydraulic lock has now been eliminated as a >problem? AND FOR HOW LONG? > >Possibly I missed the memo, but I have not seen any such reports, or >feedback -- positive or negative -- from any folks at all. So if you're >out there, please speak up. > >What I have seen is a ton of people (me included) that have taken >alternative measures, some of which might be considered to be "masking >the root of the problem" and some not. I mean, if you put something >additional in place that stops oil flow through the pump from the oil >tank, you are not masking the problem, you are stopping the problem. I >believe in being careful before modifying "original designs", but they >are not sacrosanct otherwise I would not be running those most excellent >automobile plugs and wires Dennis came up with! > >I have seen Doc's idea used a lot... a hose attached to the sump drain >fitting that is opened after flight, allowing the oil to drain right out >and then be poured right back into the engine. Color me strange, but in >my case, once oil comes out of the engine, I never pour it back in. Just >some paranoia on my part, I am sure! :-) > >I have also seen Oil Shutoff Valves used QUITE a bit, even with the >inherent danger of what happens when you forget to turn them back on >before starting. And that includes those that have micro-switch >interlocks on the start switch/button. > >So, really when it comes right down to it, Robin Hou's thoughts are >really not far off the mark! Maybe not a Porsche 911 part, but >never-the-less a better designed part that does the same job as the one >in the internal oil pump is SUPPOSED to do right now. If for nothing >else, the original valve is in an inaccessible location, and taking oil >pumps on and off on a regular basis is not high on my list of good things >to do either. > >So ... bottom line..... what's wrong with the idea of adding an external >valve, such as are used on P&W engines described by Walt? > >It dawns on me that it actually is a very good idea. > >Mark Bitterlich >N50YK & N66PW > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:15 AM PST US From: "Walter Lannon" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve Mark; Sounds like I may have screwed up my description of the P&W valve. The valve is external to the oil pump (unlike the Russian design) but is not external to the engine! It is actually located in the pressure screen housing and may be removed for inspection whenever the screen is removed. Walt -----Original Message----- From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 7:37 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve I agree with Walt on this one. The originally designed Russian check valve does not work very well, and especially after it gets some operating time on it. The P&W method seems much better to me. I did not comment on the Porsche 911 check valve simply because there is no data on its parameters. Maximum flow rates, etc. Without knowing the design parameters, it would be simply crazy to stick that device into the main oil supply line of a 9 cylinder radial aircraft engine. Dennis and Gill are of course both correct.... there is indeed a spring loaded ball check valve in the oil pump. I am curious how many readers of the YAK List have tried the method described. I.E. Have taken the oil pump off, have sent it to Jill & M-14P.com, had it refurbished and returned to service? Of those that have, how many have come on the Yak List and reported that it fixed the problem perfectly, that no more oil gets into the cylinders and hydraulic lock has now been eliminated as a problem? AND FOR HOW LONG? Possibly I missed the memo, but I have not seen any such reports, or feedback -- positive or negative -- from any folks at all. So if you're out there, please speak up. What I have seen is a ton of people (me included) that have taken alternative measures, some of which might be considered to be "masking the root of the problem" and some not. I mean, if you put something additional in place that stops oil flow through the pump from the oil tank, you are not masking the problem, you are stopping the problem. I believe in being careful before modifying "original designs", but they are not sacrosanct otherwise I would not be running those most excellent automobile plugs and wires Dennis came up with! I have seen Doc's idea used a lot... a hose attached to the sump drain fitting that is opened after flight, allowing the oil to drain right out and then be poured right back into the engine. Color me strange, but in my case, once oil comes out of the engine, I never pour it back in. Just some paranoia on my part, I am sure! :-) I have also seen Oil Shutoff Valves used QUITE a bit, even with the inherent danger of what happens when you forget to turn them back on before starting. And that includes those that have micro-switch interlocks on the start switch/button. So, really when it comes right down to it, Robin Hou's thoughts are really not far off the mark! Maybe not a Porsche 911 part, but never-the-less a better designed part that does the same job as the one in the internal oil pump is SUPPOSED to do right now. If for nothing else, the original valve is in an inaccessible location, and taking oil pumps on and off on a regular basis is not high on my list of good things to do either. So ... bottom line..... what's wrong with the idea of adding an external valve, such as are used on P&W engines described by Walt? It dawns on me that it actually is a very good idea. Mark Bitterlich N50YK & N66PW -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2014 12:29 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve Well, I wonder about that. Having lived with P&W radials for about 50 years and comparing the incidence of hydraulic lock between P&W and the Ivchenko series engines I would guess the ratio is somewhere around 1/100. A major design difference lies in the location of the static oil flow check valve. In P&W engines this valve is NOT integral to the oil pump. It is a relatively large, lightly spring loaded, poppet style valve positioned immediately downstream of the oil pressure outlet. It is readily removable for inspection. With this installation it does not matter how the leakage oil gets through the static pump (and it does!) it is stopped at that point. Of course if that valve develops a leak hydraulic lock can be the result and it has happened but is a pretty rare occurrence. Not the case with the M14 etc. it is almost to be expected at some time in the life of the engine. For what its worth I would suggest that the valve in the Ivchenko series is incapable of preventing leakage flow through the pump in the static condition and I think history has proved me correct. Cheers; Walt From: A. Dennis Savarese Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 9:16 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve Gill is 100% correct. Any external shut off valve or additional check valve only masks the root of the problem, which as Jill has so clearly stated in the Red Star magazine, internally in the oil pump itself. Have Jill overhaul your oil pump and refurbish the internal shut off valve in the oil pump. Dennis ________________________________ From: Gill Gutierrez Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve Robin, There is already a spring check valve in the system. Gill From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Hou Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 3:48 PM Subject: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve http://www.rothsport.com/Products/Engine/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves.htm I am wondering if this check valve will work between our tank and engine to reduce the possibility of hydraulic lock? It is designed for Porsche air cool 911 engine which has a dry sump oil system. Here is a description of how this valve works from www.pelicanparts.com : "One of the common problems with classic 911s can be a plume of oil smoke from your exhaust on start up. This is especially true for cars that do not get driven regularly or have sat for a while. While this is not harmful to the engine if after starting you get the engine up to operating temperature it can be quite embarrassing. There is nothing worse than having all eyes on you as you step into your 911 only to have a gigantic smoke screen come from the exhaust on start up. The majority of this smoke on startup comes from oil from the oil tank migrating back into the motor. Rothsport has come up with an ingenuous solution to this problem by designing an oil inlet check valve that restricts the flow of oil back into the motor and opens instantly on start up. Installation is quick and easy and a perfect solution for cars that sit for long periods of time. Note; the valve is clearly marked with an engine side and a tank side. Failure to install the check valve in the right orientation will lead to oil starvation and catastrophic damage to your engine. Please make sure to read all the instructions and double check the orientation of the valve when installing." What do you think? www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com www.mypilotstore.com www.mrrace.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List http://forums.matronics.com www.aeroelectric.com rel=nofollow target=_blank HomebuiltHELP hr*>wofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">hw" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">h href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.mypilotstore.com">www.mypilotstore.com href="http://www.mrrace.com">www.mrrace.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:10 AM PST US From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve OH! -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 12:46 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve Mark; Sounds like I may have screwed up my description of the P&W valve. The valve is external to the oil pump (unlike the Russian design) but is not external to the engine! It is actually located in the pressure screen housing and may be removed for inspection whenever the screen is removed. Walt -----Original Message----- From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 7:37 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve I agree with Walt on this one. The originally designed Russian check valve does not work very well, and especially after it gets some operating time on it. The P&W method seems much better to me. I did not comment on the Porsche 911 check valve simply because there is no data on its parameters. Maximum flow rates, etc. Without knowing the design parameters, it would be simply crazy to stick that device into the main oil supply line of a 9 cylinder radial aircraft engine. Dennis and Gill are of course both correct.... there is indeed a spring loaded ball check valve in the oil pump. I am curious how many readers of the YAK List have tried the method described. I.E. Have taken the oil pump off, have sent it to Jill & M-14P.com, had it refurbished and returned to service? Of those that have, how many have come on the Yak List and reported that it fixed the problem perfectly, that no more oil gets into the cylinders and hydraulic lock has now been eliminated as a problem? AND FOR HOW LONG? Possibly I missed the memo, but I have not seen any such reports, or feedback -- positive or negative -- from any folks at all. So if you're out there, please speak up. What I have seen is a ton of people (me included) that have taken alternative measures, some of which might be considered to be "masking the root of the problem" and some not. I mean, if you put something additional in place that stops oil flow through the pump from the oil tank, you are not masking the problem, you are stopping the problem. I believe in being careful before modifying "original designs", but they are not sacrosanct otherwise I would not be running those most excellent automobile plugs and wires Dennis came up with! I have seen Doc's idea used a lot... a hose attached to the sump drain fitting that is opened after flight, allowing the oil to drain right out and then be poured right back into the engine. Color me strange, but in my case, once oil comes out of the engine, I never pour it back in. Just some paranoia on my part, I am sure! :-) I have also seen Oil Shutoff Valves used QUITE a bit, even with the inherent danger of what happens when you forget to turn them back on before starting. And that includes those that have micro-switch interlocks on the start switch/button. So, really when it comes right down to it, Robin Hou's thoughts are really not far off the mark! Maybe not a Porsche 911 part, but never-the-less a better designed part that does the same job as the one in the internal oil pump is SUPPOSED to do right now. If for nothing else, the original valve is in an inaccessible location, and taking oil pumps on and off on a regular basis is not high on my list of good things to do either. So ... bottom line..... what's wrong with the idea of adding an external valve, such as are used on P&W engines described by Walt? It dawns on me that it actually is a very good idea. Mark Bitterlich N50YK & N66PW -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2014 12:29 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve Well, I wonder about that. Having lived with P&W radials for about 50 years and comparing the incidence of hydraulic lock between P&W and the Ivchenko series engines I would guess the ratio is somewhere around 1/100. A major design difference lies in the location of the static oil flow check valve. In P&W engines this valve is NOT integral to the oil pump. It is a relatively large, lightly spring loaded, poppet style valve positioned immediately downstream of the oil pressure outlet. It is readily removable for inspection. With this installation it does not matter how the leakage oil gets through the static pump (and it does!) it is stopped at that point. Of course if that valve develops a leak hydraulic lock can be the result and it has happened but is a pretty rare occurrence. Not the case with the M14 etc. it is almost to be expected at some time in the life of the engine. For what its worth I would suggest that the valve in the Ivchenko series is incapable of preventing leakage flow through the pump in the static condition and I think history has proved me correct. Cheers; Walt From: A. Dennis Savarese Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 9:16 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve Gill is 100% correct. Any external shut off valve or additional check valve only masks the root of the problem, which as Jill has so clearly stated in the Red Star magazine, internally in the oil pump itself. Have Jill overhaul your oil pump and refurbish the internal shut off valve in the oil pump. Dennis ________________________________ From: Gill Gutierrez Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve Robin, There is already a spring check valve in the system. Gill From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Hou Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 3:48 PM Subject: Yak-List: Oil Tank Check Valve http://www.rothsport.com/Products/Engine/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves.htm I am wondering if this check valve will work between our tank and engine to reduce the possibility of hydraulic lock? It is designed for Porsche air cool 911 engine which has a dry sump oil system. Here is a description of how this valve works from www.pelicanparts.com : "One of the common problems with classic 911s can be a plume of oil smoke from your exhaust on start up. This is especially true for cars that do not get driven regularly or have sat for a while. While this is not harmful to the engine if after starting you get the engine up to operating temperature it can be quite embarrassing. There is nothing worse than having all eyes on you as you step into your 911 only to have a gigantic smoke screen come from the exhaust on start up. The majority of this smoke on startup comes from oil from the oil tank migrating back into the motor. Rothsport has come up with an ingenuous solution to this problem by designing an oil inlet check valve that restricts the flow of oil back into the motor and opens instantly on start up. Installation is quick and easy and a perfect solution for cars that sit for long periods of time. Note; the valve is clearly marked with an engine side and a tank side. Failure to install the check valve in the right orientation will lead to oil starvation and catastrophic damage to your engine. Please make sure to read all the instructions and double check the orientation of the valve when installing." What do you think? www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com www.mypilotstore.com www.mrrace.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List http://forums.matronics.com www.aeroelectric.com rel=nofollow target=_blank HomebuiltHELP hr*>wofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">hw" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">h href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.mypilotstore.com">www.mypilotstore.com href="http://www.mrrace.com">www.mrrace.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:35 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: loss of main air From: "ronpenrose" Phil, I had nearly identical situation recently. After contacting Dennis he suggested I first look from compressor to snot. In short the problem was leeking banjo fitting and b nut at other end attaching to snot valve. Tightened both and I am now getting 50 bars. -------- Ron Penrose YAK-52 N352BW Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433369#433369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.