Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:02 AM - Re: Re: Air Leak Advice (Jim)
2. 06:26 AM - Re: Propeller Overhaul in Canada (Jeff Deuchar)
3. 06:50 AM - Emergency Air Tank (Ernest Martinez)
4. 08:00 AM - Re: Re: Air Leak Advice (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
5. 08:30 AM - Re: Re: Air Leak Advice (Mark Davis)
6. 01:16 PM - Re: Re: Air Leak Advice (Michael Wikstrom)
7. 01:34 PM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__Re:_Air_Leak_Advice? ()
8. 02:02 PM - Re: Re: Air Leak Advice (A. Dennis Savarese)
9. 10:00 PM - Re: Re: Air Leak Advice (Jim)
10. 10:17 PM - Re: Re: Air Leak Advice (Dan Payne)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Air Leak Advice |
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Propeller Overhaul in Canada |
Thanks Walt,
I'm just a beginner at this and the CAR's always get me as they have so man
y sections.=C2- Took me forever just to find that section.=C2- Do you k
now the paragraph that states the Variable Pitch must be done by an approve
d overhaul organization?=C2- I can't find it anywhere.=C2- The fixed pi
tch was easy.
Jeff=C2-
On Monday, April 6, 2015 10:08 PM, Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca> wro
te:
Further to my last:-------=C2-Some may think the prop overhaul requireme
nts do not apply to =9CSpecial C of A=9D category aircraft and
they would be right BUT only for Amateur Built and Owner Maintenance.=C2-
Walt =C2-=C2-From: Walter Lannon Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 8:28 PMTo
: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: Propeller Overhaul in Canad
a=C2-Jeff;=C2-I think you have misunderstood the prop overhaul info.It
is Std. 625, App.C =93 Out of Phase Tasks.=C2-=C2- You have quote
d Para. 5 (Variable Pitch) correctly but assumed incorrectly that, since it
does not specifically state =9Cby an approved organization etc.
=9D it can be overhauled by an AME.=C2- That is not the case.=C2-Par
a. 6 =93 Fixed pitch propellors can be inspected for defects and retu
rned to service by an AME unless he determines that it requires repair of a
ny type.=C2- In which case it must be done by an overhaul facility. =C2
-WaltFrom: Jeff Deuchar Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 1:30 PMTo: yak-list@
matronics.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: Propeller Overhaul in Canada=C2-Hi E
lmar,
If you want to be sure and read the requirement, it is located as Standard
625 under the CARs.
It is interesting how many people don't actually follow this though.=C2-
It is clear in that Standard that we must overhaul at manufactures recommen
dations or 10 years which ever comes sooner, and many props the manufacture
r recommends 6 years, and everyone defaults to the 10 years.=C2- After al
l we never come close to the total hours.
What I'm currently scratching my head over is I can't find where it states
a variable pitched propeller must be done in an overhaul shop.=C2- The fi
xed pitch prop is clear; "the propeller shall be repaired by an organizatio
n approved for the overhaul of propellers.".
So if that is true (and it states elsewhere the overhaul must be done per t
he maintenance manual) we should be able to have our AME overhaul the prop
per the maintenance manual and we are good.=C2- You might want to challen
ge your AME with that and see what he/she says.
Jeff=C2-
On Monday, April 6, 2015 12:40 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
Elmar, Recently had the same question/problem come up with a customer from
Vancouver BC and we discovered that yes, the prop does have a 10 year life
in Canada, and no there does not seem to be any shops in Canada which are a
ble to overhaul the J9-G1 propeller.=C2- I also spoke to several shops he
re in the US and was told that they no longer do experimental propellers.
=C2- The reason seems to be that the price they need to charge to cover s
upplies, shop time, profit, and liability normally exceeds the cost of a ne
w propeller which is about $3750.00.=C2-=C2- =C2-Doug=C2-=C2-=C2
-On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Elmar & Manuela <samira.h@shaw.ca> wrot
e:
Hi all,
I need some reliable information
on CJ propellers in Canada.
Yesterday I have learned that allegedly
the 10 years rule applies to propellers
on Yaks and Cjs in Canada under
CAR Standard 507.03 (5)(b) - Ex-military Aircraft.
I also have been told that there is no overhaul
facility left in whole Canada and TC does not accept
have it overhauled and certified in the States.
Can anybody confirm that. Your advice would be
greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advance and Happy Easter.
cheers
Elmar
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Emergency Air Tank |
I have found a good emergency tank replacement.
I'm using an aluminum 5lb CO2 cylinder, the kind used in Kegerators. It has
a capacity of 202 cu/in as opposed to the stock 198 Cu/in, has a rated
working pressure of 1800 PSI, it's 14" long with a diameter of 5.25" and
weighs in at 6 lbs. You can buy them brand new for about $50.
The adapter you'll need is a Western CGA-320 Male RH x 1/4" NPT female
adapter. This screws into the bottle. Then you just use the same NPT to AN4
adapter I used on my main air solution.
I'll post pics as soon as I receive the parts.
Ernie
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Air Leak Advice |
Jim, concur on what you said, but there is somewhat more to consider, both pro
and con.
While air is being injected into one cylinder on the power stroke, another cylinder
with no air being injected at all, is on the intake, or compression cycle,
using nothing but "regular air". That fact supports your premise of why in
theory the engine should start perfectly with nitrogen in the starting bottle.
The bad part is that the air distributor is not as straight forward as you might
think. Logic says that it simply injects air into each cylinder on the power
stroke, in firing order (kinda like a cars distributor), but what most folks
do not know is that it ALSO injects air into the lower cylinders when the exhaust
valves are OPEN (bottom three). Due to camshaft overlap there will still
be some nitrogen in those cylinders when they go into their intake cycle. The
Russians designed the air distributor this way to help "blow out" any oil collected
in the lower three, which as everyone knows is a fact of life with radials.
Their engineers were pretty darn savvy (at least I think so).
The third variable is the actual timing adjustment of the air distributor. If
you talk to anyone that has messed with these jewels, they can be difficult to
get set "perfectly". It is not unusual for someone to get to the point where
they say: "Heck, that's good enough". Point being, it would not surprise me
if more than a few of our aircraft have this device slightly out of time. Put
all this together, and the end result is that the engine can be harder to start
when you have pure nitrogen in the starting bottle, but it always WILL start
if you "set it up" correctly with priming and pull through.
So my 2 cents is that EVERYONE is correct regarding this topic! :-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
Jan,
You are correct. They start fine on Nitrogen. Or any other type of inert gas
or straight air. I would use either Nitrogen or bottled "breathing air" as used
by fire fighter's breathing apparatus. Whichever is cheaper at your local
welding supply shop.
I run into many who argue Nitrogen doesn't work for starting as it is inert and
thereby non-combustible. That statement only exposes their lack of understanding
of the internal combustion engine piston cycle. Starting gas is injected
into each cylinder on it's power stroke when both valves are closed, not on
it's intake stroke, and then starter gas is expelled through the exhaust valve
on the exhaust stroke. So start air doesn't get involved in the combustion process.
The intake stroke still sucks in the normal fuel/air mixture from the
carburetor prior compression and ignition. If, on the other hand, the start
gas were injected on the intake stroke where would the fuel required for ignition
come from? Also with the intake valve open wouldn't the high pressure starting
gas be blown backwards down into the intake and carburetor? These are
the questions to ask the non-Nitrogen starting camp.
Jim
-------- Original message --------
From: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
I like this too.
Once a year I put the plane on jacks and check the emergency system too (not having
it slam the gear all the way).
At that occasion, both bottles are inspected and I refill completely with industrial-quality
dry air.
I thought about doing this annual check and refill with nitrogen, though.
She starts with nitrogen too (done it several times).
Jan
On 07/04/15 01:33, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>No question that filling the emergency bottle with something like dry
>water pumped nitrogen would be better than filling it from the engine
>compressor Jan.
>
>
>But consider this: On your 50, empty the emergency bottle. Easy to do,
>just loosen the fitting on the check valve on the firewall and let it
>bleed to zero.
>
>
>Now connect to the external fill connection, and using dry water pumped
>nitrogen, fill it back up to 50 Atmos. Unless your system leaks, that
>nitrogen will stay in there for a LONG time. If you want, empty it
>every year and fill it again to make sure. So you have now accomplished
>the same end that the 52 guys have right now, but more importantly.. if
>you ever have to blow the gear down with the emergency bottle AND IT
>DOES NOT WORK, you can fly around for awhile, let both bottle fill back
>up and try it again.
>
>
>Personally, I like that, a LOT. :-)
>
>
>Mark
>
>
>________________________________
>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>[owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] on behalf of Jan Mevis
>[jan.mevis@informavia.be]
>Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 12:26 PM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
>
>
>One of the reasons could be that the emergency bottle on the 52 gets
>filled with perfectly dry air, from an industrial bottle.
>So less probability of oxidation etc.
>The water separator on the 50 can't do better than that.
>I had to replace the water separator on my 50 almost immediately when I
>bought it 10 years ago.
>It was supposed to be overhauled in 2000 in Shakthy.
>But I'm sure that they kept the original water separator from the
>eighties.
>I still have it, I can simply blow through it without any effort.
>
>Only an educated guess,
>
>Jan
>
>On 06/04/15 17:09, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>>On the 50 it also is filled from the compressor.
>>
>>Wouldn't be too hard to change. I've always been curious why the
>>Russians decided to fill it (from the compressor) on the 50 and not on
>>the 52.
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flier
>>Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2015 9:00 AM
>>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
>>
>>
>>Thanks Dennis. All this time I thought the emergency was also being
>>replenished but I just looked at the schematic. I'll be darn.
>>Appreciate the reply.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440289#440289
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
ky " Z+ M4 G q ( w r I Qh ax r ^jz Z ( " X , Z
I J r *' ! y :0 Zw E , jwf f f i 0 f r ( Z ( jB
m
&j ',r 5 h .+- M $ NECI ' j[(j z y h j ~m f r ( m
f r ( B {k y jy2 *. z . 1 m
) i 0 f r ( ( n b xm
&j ',r r & *' ' k{ w/ i
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
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|
| Subject: | Re: Air Leak Advice |
The cylinders don't scavenge 100% on the exhaust stroke also contributes to a overly
sweet blend of nitrogen. I've had hard start issues with mine in the past
if I've charged a depleted system with 100% nitrogen. If it doesn't start
on the first attempt, pull it through to recharge the cylinders and intake with
pure air. I've also found that opening the throttle just a bit more than normal
also helps pull in more fresh air for starting.
Mark Davis
N44YK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 8:59 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
--> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Jim, concur on what you said, but there is somewhat more to consider, both pro
and con.
While air is being injected into one cylinder on the power stroke, another cylinder
with no air being injected at all, is on the intake, or compression cycle,
using nothing but "regular air". That fact supports your premise of why in
theory the engine should start perfectly with nitrogen in the starting bottle.
The bad part is that the air distributor is not as straight forward as you might
think. Logic says that it simply injects air into each cylinder on the power
stroke, in firing order (kinda like a cars distributor), but what most folks
do not know is that it ALSO injects air into the lower cylinders when the exhaust
valves are OPEN (bottom three). Due to camshaft overlap there will still
be some nitrogen in those cylinders when they go into their intake cycle. The
Russians designed the air distributor this way to help "blow out" any oil collected
in the lower three, which as everyone knows is a fact of life with radials.
Their engineers were pretty darn savvy (at least I think so).
The third variable is the actual timing adjustment of the air distributor. If
you talk to anyone that has messed with these jewels, they can be difficult to
get set "perfectly". It is not unusual for someone to get to the point where
they say: "Heck, that's good enough". Point being, it would not surprise me
if more than a few of our aircraft have this device slightly out of time. Put
all this together, and the end result is that the engine can be harder to start
when you have pure nitrogen in the starting bottle, but it always WILL start
if you "set it up" correctly with priming and pull through.
So my 2 cents is that EVERYONE is correct regarding this topic! :-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
Jan,
You are correct. They start fine on Nitrogen. Or any other type of inert gas
or straight air. I would use either Nitrogen or bottled "breathing air" as used
by fire fighter's breathing apparatus. Whichever is cheaper at your local
welding supply shop.
I run into many who argue Nitrogen doesn't work for starting as it is inert and
thereby non-combustible. That statement only exposes their lack of understanding
of the internal combustion engine piston cycle. Starting gas is injected
into each cylinder on it's power stroke when both valves are closed, not on
it's intake stroke, and then starter gas is expelled through the exhaust valve
on the exhaust stroke. So start air doesn't get involved in the combustion process.
The intake stroke still sucks in the normal fuel/air mixture from the
carburetor prior compression and ignition. If, on the other hand, the start
gas were injected on the intake stroke where would the fuel required for ignition
come from? Also with the intake valve open wouldn't the high pressure starting
gas be blown backwards down into the intake and carburetor? These are
the questions to ask the non-Nitrogen starting camp.
Jim
-------- Original message --------
From: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
I like this too.
Once a year I put the plane on jacks and check the emergency system too (not having
it slam the gear all the way).
At that occasion, both bottles are inspected and I refill completely with industrial-quality
dry air.
I thought about doing this annual check and refill with nitrogen, though.
She starts with nitrogen too (done it several times).
Jan
On 07/04/15 01:33, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>No question that filling the emergency bottle with something like dry
>water pumped nitrogen would be better than filling it from the engine
>compressor Jan.
>
>
>But consider this: On your 50, empty the emergency bottle. Easy to do,
>just loosen the fitting on the check valve on the firewall and let it
>bleed to zero.
>
>
>Now connect to the external fill connection, and using dry water pumped
>nitrogen, fill it back up to 50 Atmos. Unless your system leaks, that
>nitrogen will stay in there for a LONG time. If you want, empty it
>every year and fill it again to make sure. So you have now accomplished
>the same end that the 52 guys have right now, but more importantly.. if
>you ever have to blow the gear down with the emergency bottle AND IT
>DOES NOT WORK, you can fly around for awhile, let both bottle fill back
>up and try it again.
>
>
>Personally, I like that, a LOT. :-)
>
>
>Mark
>
>
>________________________________
>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>[owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] on behalf of Jan Mevis
>[jan.mevis@informavia.be]
>Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 12:26 PM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
>
>
>One of the reasons could be that the emergency bottle on the 52 gets
>filled with perfectly dry air, from an industrial bottle.
>So less probability of oxidation etc.
>The water separator on the 50 can't do better than that.
>I had to replace the water separator on my 50 almost immediately when I
>bought it 10 years ago.
>It was supposed to be overhauled in 2000 in Shakthy.
>But I'm sure that they kept the original water separator from the
>eighties.
>I still have it, I can simply blow through it without any effort.
>
>Only an educated guess,
>
>Jan
>
>On 06/04/15 17:09, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>>On the 50 it also is filled from the compressor.
>>
>>Wouldn't be too hard to change. I've always been curious why the
>>Russians decided to fill it (from the compressor) on the 50 and not on
>>the 52.
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flier
>>Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2015 9:00 AM
>>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
>>
>>
>>Thanks Dennis. All this time I thought the emergency was also being
>>replenished but I just looked at the schematic. I'll be darn.
>>Appreciate the reply.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440289#440289
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
ky " Z+ M4 G q ( w r I Qh ax r ^jz Z ( " X , Z
I J r *' ! y :0 Zw E , jwf f f i 0 f r ( Z ( jB
m
&j ',r 5 h .+- M $ NECI ' j[(j z y h j ~m f r ( m
f r ( B {k y jy2 *. z . 1 m
) i 0 f r ( ( n b xm
&j ',r r & *' ' k{ w/ i
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
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| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
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|
| Subject: | Re: Air Leak Advice |
Hi
I can confirm that the M14P starts perfectly well on pure nitrogen. On a few occasions
I've emptied my normal bottles and
the only thing they had at the airport where I was (Trieste in Italy) was nitrogen.
My standard bottle was completely empty and we filled to 50 bar with nitrogen
and it started immediately.
Michael Wikstrom
Yak18T
France
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
Sent: mardi 7 avril 2015 16:59
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
--> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Jim, concur on what you said, but there is somewhat more to consider, both pro
and con.
While air is being injected into one cylinder on the power stroke, another cylinder
with no air being injected at all, is on the intake, or compression cycle,
using nothing but "regular air". That fact supports your premise of why in
theory the engine should start perfectly with nitrogen in the starting bottle.
The bad part is that the air distributor is not as straight forward as you might
think. Logic says that it simply injects air into each cylinder on the power
stroke, in firing order (kinda like a cars distributor), but what most folks
do not know is that it ALSO injects air into the lower cylinders when the exhaust
valves are OPEN (bottom three). Due to camshaft overlap there will still
be some nitrogen in those cylinders when they go into their intake cycle. The
Russians designed the air distributor this way to help "blow out" any oil collected
in the lower three, which as everyone knows is a fact of life with radials.
Their engineers were pretty darn savvy (at least I think so).
The third variable is the actual timing adjustment of the air distributor. If
you talk to anyone that has messed with these jewels, they can be difficult to
get set "perfectly". It is not unusual for someone to get to the point where
they say: "Heck, that's good enough". Point being, it would not surprise me
if more than a few of our aircraft have this device slightly out of time. Put
all this together, and the end result is that the engine can be harder to start
when you have pure nitrogen in the starting bottle, but it always WILL start
if you "set it up" correctly with priming and pull through.
So my 2 cents is that EVERYONE is correct regarding this topic! :-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
Jan,
You are correct. They start fine on Nitrogen. Or any other type of inert gas
or straight air. I would use either Nitrogen or bottled "breathing air" as used
by fire fighter's breathing apparatus. Whichever is cheaper at your local
welding supply shop.
I run into many who argue Nitrogen doesn't work for starting as it is inert and
thereby non-combustible. That statement only exposes their lack of understanding
of the internal combustion engine piston cycle. Starting gas is injected
into each cylinder on it's power stroke when both valves are closed, not on
it's intake stroke, and then starter gas is expelled through the exhaust valve
on the exhaust stroke. So start air doesn't get involved in the combustion process.
The intake stroke still sucks in the normal fuel/air mixture from the
carburetor prior compression and ignition. If, on the other hand, the start
gas were injected on the intake stroke where would the fuel required for ignition
come from? Also with the intake valve open wouldn't the high pressure starting
gas be blown backwards down into the intake and carburetor? These are
the questions to ask the non-Nitrogen starting camp.
Jim
-------- Original message --------
From: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
I like this too.
Once a year I put the plane on jacks and check the emergency system too (not having
it slam the gear all the way).
At that occasion, both bottles are inspected and I refill completely with industrial-quality
dry air.
I thought about doing this annual check and refill with nitrogen, though.
She starts with nitrogen too (done it several times).
Jan
On 07/04/15 01:33, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>No question that filling the emergency bottle with something like dry
>water pumped nitrogen would be better than filling it from the engine
>compressor Jan.
>
>
>But consider this: On your 50, empty the emergency bottle. Easy to do,
>just loosen the fitting on the check valve on the firewall and let it
>bleed to zero.
>
>
>Now connect to the external fill connection, and using dry water pumped
>nitrogen, fill it back up to 50 Atmos. Unless your system leaks, that
>nitrogen will stay in there for a LONG time. If you want, empty it
>every year and fill it again to make sure. So you have now accomplished
>the same end that the 52 guys have right now, but more importantly.. if
>you ever have to blow the gear down with the emergency bottle AND IT
>DOES NOT WORK, you can fly around for awhile, let both bottle fill back
>up and try it again.
>
>
>Personally, I like that, a LOT. :-)
>
>
>Mark
>
>
>________________________________
>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>[owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] on behalf of Jan Mevis
>[jan.mevis@informavia.be]
>Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 12:26 PM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
>
>
>One of the reasons could be that the emergency bottle on the 52 gets
>filled with perfectly dry air, from an industrial bottle.
>So less probability of oxidation etc.
>The water separator on the 50 can't do better than that.
>I had to replace the water separator on my 50 almost immediately when I
>bought it 10 years ago.
>It was supposed to be overhauled in 2000 in Shakthy.
>But I'm sure that they kept the original water separator from the
>eighties.
>I still have it, I can simply blow through it without any effort.
>
>Only an educated guess,
>
>Jan
>
>On 06/04/15 17:09, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>>On the 50 it also is filled from the compressor.
>>
>>Wouldn't be too hard to change. I've always been curious why the
>>Russians decided to fill it (from the compressor) on the 50 and not on
>>the 52.
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flier
>>Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2015 9:00 AM
>>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
>>
>>
>>Thanks Dennis. All this time I thought the emergency was also being
>>replenished but I just looked at the schematic. I'll be darn.
>>Appreciate the reply.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440289#440289
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
ky " Z+ M4 G q ( w r I Qh ax r ^jz Z ( " X , Z
I J r *' ! y :0 Zw E , jwf f f i 0 f r ( Z ( jB
m
&j ',r 5 h .+- M $ NECI ' j[(j z y h j ~m f r ( m
f r ( B {k y jy2 *. z . 1 m
) i 0 f r ( ( n b xm
&j ',r r & *' ' k{ w/ i
Message 7
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|
| Subject: | Re: ?utf-8?Q?Re:_Yak-List:_Re:_Air_Leak_Advice? |
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Air Leak Advice |
The only thing I will say is my own Yak 52 would absolutely NOT start on N2
.=C2-=C2- I agree with everything Mark Bitterlich posted on the subject
.=C2- Particularly the accuracy of the air start valve timing.
Dennis
From: "migfighter42@gmail.com" <migfighter42@gmail.com>
To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
<!--#yiv0970482200 p.yiv0970482200MsoListParagraph, #yiv0970482200 li.yiv09
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bottom:.0001pt;}#yiv0970482200 p.yiv0970482200MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst, #y
iv0970482200 li.yiv0970482200MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst, #yiv0970482200 div.
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stParagraphCxSpMiddle, #yiv0970482200 li.yiv0970482200MsoListParagraphCxSpM
iddle, #yiv0970482200 div.yiv0970482200MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle, #yiv0970
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aphCxSpLast {margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:115%;}-->My 1992 Yak-52 will not sta
rt on Nitrogen, period. The 1985 of which I own a part (not sure why) will
start on N2. I learned this the hard way one weekend when we ran out of scu
ba air and used N2 that we normally use in the MiG/L-29. Nothing, nada, kap
ut! At first we thought it was a ignition issue, but it came on too suddenl
y. We swapped the N2 for breathing air in the hanger and all the aircraft p
lay nicely now.=C2-To the comment of the valves being closed, most high p
erformance engines have both valves open during part of the normal compress
ion operation (overlap) because the velocity of the incoming gas and the ou
tgoing gas separates the pre and post burn volumes of air.=C2- When start
ing at a low RPM, it is possible to get enough N2 into the cylinder to caus
e=C2-a no-start. =C2-=C2-As explained by Dennis, some M14=99s i
nject N2 into the cylinder that the=C2-=9Cshower of sparks=9D
is used. Some do not. I suspect that Dennis will chime in at some point on
the issue.=C2-Bill=C2-=C2-Sent from Windows Mail=C2-From:=C2-Mic
hael Wikstrom
Sent:=C2-=8ETuesday=8E, =8EApril=8E =8E7
=8E, =8E2015 =8E3=8E:=8E15=8E =8EPM
el Wikstrom" <michael@wikstrom.cc>
Hi
I can confirm that the M14P starts perfectly well on pure nitrogen.=C2- O
n a few occasions I've emptied my normal bottles and
the only thing they had at the airport where I was (Trieste in Italy) was n
itrogen.=C2- My standard bottle was completely empty and we filled to 50
bar with nitrogen
and it started immediately.
Michael Wikstrom
Yak18T
France
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@mat
ronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
Sent: mardi 7 avril 2015 16:59
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
--> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Jim, concur on what you said, but there is somewhat more to consider, both
pro and con.=C2-=C2-
=C2-While air is being injected into one cylinder on the power stroke, an
other cylinder with no air being injected at all, is on the intake, or comp
ression cycle, using nothing but "regular air".=C2- That fact supports yo
ur premise of why in theory the engine should start perfectly with nitrogen
in the starting bottle.=C2-=C2-
=C2-The bad part is that the air distributor is not as straight forward a
s you might think.=C2- Logic says that it simply injects air into each cy
linder on the power stroke, in firing order (kinda like a cars distributor)
, but what most folks do not know is that it ALSO injects air into the lowe
r cylinders when the exhaust valves are OPEN (bottom three).=C2- Due to c
amshaft overlap there will still be some nitrogen in those cylinders when t
hey go into their intake cycle.=C2- The Russians designed the air distrib
utor this way to help "blow out" any oil collected in the lower three, whic
h as everyone knows is a fact of life with radials.=C2-=C2- Their engin
eers were pretty darn savvy (at least I think so).=C2-=C2-=C2-
The third variable is the actual timing adjustment of the air distributor.
=C2- If you talk to anyone that has messed with these jewels, they can be
difficult to get set "perfectly".=C2- It is not unusual for someone to g
et to the point where they say: "Heck, that's good enough".=C2- Point bei
ng, it would not surprise me if more than a few of our aircraft have this d
evice slightly out of time.=C2- Put all this together, and the end result
is that the engine can be harder to start when you have pure nitrogen in t
he starting bottle, but it always WILL start if you "set it up" correctly w
ith priming and pull through.=C2-=C2-
So my 2 cents is that EVERYONE is correct regarding this topic!=C2- :-)
Mark
=C2-
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@mat
ronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
Jan,
You are correct. They start fine on Nitrogen.=C2-=C2- Or any other type
of inert gas or straight air. I would use either Nitrogen or bottled "brea
thing air" as used by fire fighter's breathing apparatus.=C2-=C2- Which
ever is cheaper at your local welding supply shop.
I run into many who argue Nitrogen doesn't work for starting as it is inert
and thereby non-combustible.=C2-=C2- That statement only exposes their
lack of understanding of the internal combustion engine piston cycle.=C2
- Starting gas is injected into each cylinder on it's power stroke when b
oth valves are closed, not on it's intake stroke, and then starter gas is e
xpelled through the exhaust valve on the exhaust stroke.=C2- So start air
doesn't get involved in the combustion process.=C2-=C2- The intake str
oke still sucks in the normal fuel/air mixture from the carburetor prior co
mpression and ignition.=C2-=C2- If, on the other hand, the start gas we
re injected on the intake stroke where would the fuel required for ignition
come from?=C2- Also with the intake valve open wouldn't the high pressur
e starting gas be blown backwards down into the intake and carburetor?=C2
- These are the questions to ask the non-Nitrogen starting camp.
Jim
-------- Original message --------
From: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
I like this too.
Once a year I put the plane on jacks and check the emergency system too (no
t having it slam the gear all the way).
At that occasion, both bottles are inspected and I refill completely with i
ndustrial-quality dry air.
I thought about doing this annual check and refill with nitrogen, though.
She starts with nitrogen too (done it several times).
Jan
On 07/04/15 01:33, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>No question that filling the emergency bottle with something like dry
>water pumped nitrogen would be better than filling it from the engine
>compressor Jan.
>
>
>But consider this:=C2-=C2- On your 50, empty the emergency bottle.=C2
- Easy to do,
>just loosen the fitting on the check valve on the firewall and let it
>bleed to zero.
>
>
>Now connect to the external fill connection, and using dry water pumped
>nitrogen, fill it back up to 50 Atmos.=C2- Unless your system leaks, tha
t
>nitrogen will stay in there for a LONG time.=C2-=C2-=C2- If you want
, empty it
>every year and fill it again to make sure.=C2-=C2- So you have now acc
omplished
>the same end that the 52 guys have right now, but more importantly.. if
>you ever have to blow the gear down with the emergency bottle AND IT
>DOES NOT WORK, you can fly around for awhile, let both bottle fill back
>up and try it again.
>
>
>Personally, I like that, a LOT. :-)
>
>
>Mark
>
>
>________________________________
>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>[owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] on behalf of Jan Mevis
>[jan.mevis@informavia.be]
>Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 12:26 PM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
>
>
>One of the reasons could be that the emergency bottle on the 52 gets
>filled with perfectly dry air, from an industrial bottle.
>So less probability of oxidation etc.
>The water separator on the 50 can't do better than that.
>I had to replace the water separator on my 50 almost immediately when I
>bought it 10 years ago.
>It was supposed to be overhauled in 2000 in Shakthy.
>But I'm sure that they kept the original water separator from the
>eighties.
>I still have it, I can simply blow through it without any effort.
>
>Only an educated guess,
>
>Jan
>
>On 06/04/15 17:09, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>>On the 50 it also is filled from the compressor.
>>
>>Wouldn't be too hard to change.=C2-=C2- I've always been curious why
the
>>Russians decided to fill it (from the compressor) on the 50 and not on
>>the 52.
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flier
>>Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2015 9:00 AM
>>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
>>
>>
>>Thanks Dennis.=C2- All this time I thought the emergency was also being
>>replenished but I just looked at the schematic.=C2- I'll be darn.
>>Appreciate the reply.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440289#440289
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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- B {k=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- y=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- jy2=C2-
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&j=C2- ',r=C2- r=C2- & *'=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- '=C2- k{=C2- w/
i
Email Forum -
-=C2-=C2- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
- - List Contribution Web Site -
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Air Leak Advice |
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| Subject: | Re: Air Leak Advice |
The 52 will start on a full nitrogen charge. Think about it...
Dennis Savarese is correct. Listen to him.
If the air start sequence is in time...you are blowing the pistons down, not sucking
in N2. The other cylinders should suck, bang, and blow...
Mine will start off a full nitrogen charge, but only because I adjust my valves
every 25-30hrs.
By the way, after a divorce, a chapter 7, and her keeping my money ...I'm back
in action, and I owe Kelley Monroe $100.
My 52 will be for sale at Sun N Fun as well...I need money for the 50 project I
bought from Dave Hilker with Dennis's assistance...
Keep 'em Flyin',
Dan Payne
Owner, Pilot, A&P-IA
(423)-544-8946
Volunteer Aero Services
Dallas Bay Skypark
1824 E Crabtree Road
Hixson, TN 37343
"Where Airworthiness Means Business!"
> On Apr 8, 2015, at 12:57 AM, Jim <jim@jimivey.com> wrote:
>
> Mark, et al...
>
>
> Thank you for your very insightful and borne by experience reply to my Nitrogen
comments. Sincerely. Gosh. I learned much today. I guess I am one of
the lucky ones who have not experienced trouble with Nitrogen starts. But
unlike yourself my experience is very limited.
>
> Herein lies the very nature of the value of the Yak list. Not just this topic
but many others. If anybody hasn't said it recently, thanks to every participant.
New to the Yak/CJ game or seasoned veteran. Thank you.
>
> Golly. I think I will stick with breathing air for the refill boost bottle
and Nitrogen for struts and tires. I owe all y'all a beer. Speaking of which
I will be at Sun N Fun 2015 for the 22nd through the 23rd (sans CJ-6) and the
beer offer is good. Sapp? Pappy? Sax? Matt? Any other Yak list attendees,
owners or not, at SNF. I am really grateful for everyone here on the Matronics
Yak List. You guys are the best. Beer is on me.
>
> Jim
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
> Date: 04/07/2015 8:58 AM (GMT-07:00)
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
>
>
> Jim, concur on what you said, but there is somewhat more to consider, both pro
and con.
>
> While air is being injected into one cylinder on the power stroke, another cylinder
with no air being injected at all, is on the intake, or compression cycle,
using nothing but "regular air". That fact supports your premise of why in
theory the engine should start perfectly with nitrogen in the starting bottle.
>
> The bad part is that the air distributor is not as straight forward as you might
think. Logic says that it simply injects air into each cylinder on the power
stroke, in firing order (kinda like a cars distributor), but what most folks
do not know is that it ALSO injects air into the lower cylinders when the exhaust
valves are OPEN (bottom three). Due to camshaft overlap there will still
be some nitrogen in those cylinders when they go into their intake cycle.
The Russians designed the air distributor this way to help "blow out" any oil
collected in the lower three, which as everyone knows is a fact of life with radials.
Their engineers were pretty darn savvy (at least I think so).
>
> The third variable is the actual timing adjustment of the air distributor. If
you talk to anyone that has messed with these jewels, they can be difficult
to get set "perfectly". It is not unusual for someone to get to the point where
they say: "Heck, that's good enough". Point being, it would not surprise me
if more than a few of our aircraft have this device slightly out of time. Put
all this together, and the end result is that the engine can be harder to start
when you have pure nitrogen in the starting bottle, but it always WILL start
if you "set it up" correctly with priming and pull through.
>
> So my 2 cents is that EVERYONE is correct regarding this topic! :-)
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 9:02 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
>
> Jan,
>
> You are correct. They start fine on Nitrogen. Or any other type of inert gas
or straight air. I would use either Nitrogen or bottled "breathing air" as used
by fire fighter's breathing apparatus. Whichever is cheaper at your local
welding supply shop.
>
> I run into many who argue Nitrogen doesn't work for starting as it is inert and
thereby non-combustible. That statement only exposes their lack of understanding
of the internal combustion engine piston cycle. Starting gas is injected
into each cylinder on it's power stroke when both valves are closed, not on
it's intake stroke, and then starter gas is expelled through the exhaust valve
on the exhaust stroke. So start air doesn't get involved in the combustion
process. The intake stroke still sucks in the normal fuel/air mixture from
the carburetor prior compression and ignition. If, on the other hand, the start
gas were injected on the intake stroke where would the fuel required for ignition
come from? Also with the intake valve open wouldn't the high pressure
starting gas be blown backwards down into the intake and carburetor? These are
the questions to ask the non-Nitrogen starting camp.
>
> Jim
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
> Date: 04/07/2015 12:22 AM (GMT-07:00)
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
>
>
> I like this too.
> Once a year I put the plane on jacks and check the emergency system too (not
having it slam the gear all the way).
> At that occasion, both bottles are inspected and I refill completely with industrial-quality
dry air.
> I thought about doing this annual check and refill with nitrogen, though.
> She starts with nitrogen too (done it several times).
>
> Jan
>
>
>
> On 07/04/15 01:33, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
> ><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
> >
> >No question that filling the emergency bottle with something like dry
> >water pumped nitrogen would be better than filling it from the engine
> >compressor Jan.
> >
> >
> >
> >But consider this: On your 50, empty the emergency bottle. Easy to do,
> >just loosen the fitting on the check valve on the firewall and let it
> >bleed to zero.
> >
> >
> >
> >Now connect to the external fill connection, and using dry water pumped
> >nitrogen, fill it back up to 50 Atmos. Unless your system leaks, that
> >nitrogen will stay in there for a LONG time. If you want, empty it
> >every year and fill it again to make sure. So you have now accomplished
> >the same end that the 52 guys have right now, but more importantly.. if
> >you ever have to blow the gear down with the emergency bottle AND IT
> >DOES NOT WORK, you can fly around for awhile, let both bottle fill back
> >up and try it again.
> >
> >
> >
> >Personally, I like that, a LOT. :-)
> >
> >
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> >From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> >[owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] on behalf of Jan Mevis
> >[jan.mevis@informavia.be]
> >Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 12:26 PM
> >To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
> >
> >
> >One of the reasons could be that the emergency bottle on the 52 gets
> >filled with perfectly dry air, from an industrial bottle.
> >So less probability of oxidation etc.
> >The water separator on the 50 can't do better than that.
> >I had to replace the water separator on my 50 almost immediately when I
> >bought it 10 years ago.
> >It was supposed to be overhauled in 2000 in Shakthy.
> >But I'm sure that they kept the original water separator from the
> >eighties.
> >I still have it, I can simply blow through it without any effort.
> >
> >Only an educated guess,
> >
> >Jan
> >
> >On 06/04/15 17:09, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
> ><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> >
> >><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
> >>
> >>On the 50 it also is filled from the compressor.
> >>
> >>Wouldn't be too hard to change. I've always been curious why the
> >>Russians decided to fill it (from the compressor) on the 50 and not on
> >>the 52.
> >>
> >>Mark
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> >>[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flier
> >>Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2015 9:00 AM
> >>To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >>Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
> >>
> >>
> >>Thanks Dennis. All this time I thought the emergency was also being
> >>replenished but I just looked at the schematic. I'll be darn.
> >>Appreciate the reply.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Read this topic online here:
> >>
> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440289#440289
> >>
> >>
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