Yak-List Digest Archive

Wed 04/08/15


Total Messages Posted: 6



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:51 AM - M14P exhaust valves (George S. Coy)
     2. 04:53 AM - Re: Re: Air Leak Advice (cjpilot710@aol.com)
     3. 06:32 AM - Re: Air Leak Advice (Rob Rowe)
     4. 07:30 AM - Re: Re: Air Leak Advice (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
     5. 01:31 PM - Re: Re: Air Leak Advice (Roger Kemp)
     6. 09:22 PM - Re: Housai Compression (Walter Lannon)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 04:51:41 AM PST US
    From: "George S. Coy" <george.coy@gmail.com>
    Subject: M14P exhaust valves
    Yakkers, We recently acquired some New old stock exhaust valves. Contact off list if you need any. We also have in stock an electric start conversion kit. George Coy CAS Ltd. 629 Airport Rd. Swanton VT 05488 USA 802-868-5633 off 802-363-5782 cell 802-868-4465 Fax <mailto:george.coy@gmail.com> george.coy@gmail.com <http://coyacft.com/> http://coyacft.com/ SKYPE george.coy


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:53:01 AM PST US
    From: cjpilot710@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Air Leak Advice
    Did I read hear 'you owe us a beer' AND you'll be at SnF? BAM (by all means) I shall hunt you down! And for your generous FREE offer, I shall explain in gruesome detail, how to time a starter valve. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby PS I'll be there all week. ;-) In a message dated 4/8/2015 1:00:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jim@jimivey.com writes: Mark, et al... Thank you for your very insightful and borne by experience reply to my Nitrogen comments. Sincerely. Gosh. I learned much today. I guess I am one of the lucky ones who have not experienced trouble with Nitrogen star ts. But unlike yourself my experience is very limited. Herein lies the very nature of the value of the Yak list. Not just this topic but many others. If anybody hasn't said it recently, thanks to eve ry participant. New to the Yak/CJ game or seasoned veteran. Thank you. Golly. I think I will stick with breathing air for the refill boost bottle and Nitrogen for struts and tires. I owe all y'all a beer. Speak ing of which I will be at Sun N Fun 2015 for the 22nd through the 23rd (sans CJ-6) and the beer offer is good. Sapp? Pappy? Sax? Matt? Any other Yak list attendees, owners or not, at SNF. I am really grateful for everyon e here on the Matronics Yak List. You guys are the best. Beer is on me. Jim -------- Original message -------- From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> Jim, concur on what you said, but there is somewhat more to consider, bot h pro and con. While air is being injected into one cylinder on the power stroke, anothe r cylinder with no air being injected at all, is on the intake, or compression cycle, using nothing but "regular air". That fact supports your premise of why in theory the engine should start perfectly with nitrogen in the starting bottle. The bad part is that the air distributor is not as straight forward as yo u might think. Logic says that it simply injects air into each cylinder on the power stroke, in firing order (kinda like a cars distributor), but wh at most folks do not know is that it ALSO injects air into the lower cylinders when the exhaust valves are OPEN (bottom three). Due to camsha ft overlap there will still be some nitrogen in those cylinders when they go into their intake cycle. The Russians designed the air distributor this way to help "blow out" any oil collected in the lower three, which as everyone knows is a fact of life with radials. Their engineers were pretty darn savvy (at least I think so). The third variable is the actual timing adjustment of the air distributor . If you talk to anyone that has messed with these jewels, they can be difficult to get set "perfectly". It is not unusual for someone to get to the point where they say: "Heck, that's good enough". Point being, it would not surprise me if more than a few of our aircraft have this device sligh tly out of time. Put all this together, and the end result is that the engin e can be harder to start when you have pure nitrogen in the starting bottle , but it always WILL start if you "set it up" correctly with priming and pu ll through. So my 2 cents is that EVERYONE is correct regarding this topic! :-) Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice Jan, You are correct. They start fine on Nitrogen. Or any other type of iner t gas or straight air. I would use either Nitrogen or bottled "breathing air" as used by fire fighter's breathing apparatus. Whichever is cheape r at your local welding supply shop. I run into many who argue Nitrogen doesn't work for starting as it is inert and thereby non-combustible. That statement only exposes their la ck of understanding of the internal combustion engine piston cycle. Starting gas is injected into each cylinder on it's power stroke when both valves are closed, not on it's intake stroke, and then starter gas is expelled throu gh the exhaust valve on the exhaust stroke. So start air doesn't get involv ed in the combustion process. The intake stroke still sucks in the normal fuel/air mixture from the carburetor prior compression and ignition. If , on the other hand, the start gas were injected on the intake stroke where would the fuel required for ignition come from? Also with the intake val ve open wouldn't the high pressure starting gas be blown backwards down into the intake and carburetor? These are the questions to ask the non-Nitrog en starting camp. Jim -------- Original message -------- From: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice I like this too. Once a year I put the plane on jacks and check the emergency system too (not having it slam the gear all the way). At that occasion, both bottles are inspected and I refill completely with industrial-quality dry air. I thought about doing this annual check and refill with nitrogen, though. She starts with nitrogen too (done it several times). Jan On 07/04/15 01:33, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote: ><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> > >No question that filling the emergency bottle with something like dry >water pumped nitrogen would be better than filling it from the engine >compressor Jan. > > >But consider this: On your 50, empty the emergency bottle. Easy to do , >just loosen the fitting on the check valve on the firewall and let it >bleed to zero. > > >Now connect to the external fill connection, and using dry water pumped >nitrogen, fill it back up to 50 Atmos. Unless your system leaks, that >nitrogen will stay in there for a LONG time. If you want, empty it >every year and fill it again to make sure. So you have now accomplish ed >the same end that the 52 guys have right now, but more importantly.. if >you ever have to blow the gear down with the emergency bottle AND IT >DOES NOT WORK, you can fly around for awhile, let both bottle fill back >up and try it again. > > >Personally, I like that, a LOT. :-) > > >Mark > > >________________________________ >From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com >[owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] on behalf of Jan Mevis >[jan.mevis@informavia.be] >Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 12:26 PM >To: yak-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice > >--> Yak-List message posted by: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be> > >One of the reasons could be that the emergency bottle on the 52 gets >filled with perfectly dry air, from an industrial bottle. >So less probability of oxidation etc. >The water separator on the 50 can't do better than that. >I had to replace the water separator on my 50 almost immediately when I >bought it 10 years ago. >It was supposed to be overhauled in 2000 in Shakthy. >But I'm sure that they kept the original water separator from the >eighties. >I still have it, I can simply blow through it without any effort. > >Only an educated guess, > >Jan > >On 06/04/15 17:09, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" ><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote: > >><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> >> >>On the 50 it also is filled from the compressor. >> >>Wouldn't be too hard to change. I've always been curious why the >>Russians decided to fill it (from the compressor) on the 50 and not on >>the 52. >> >>Mark >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flier >>Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2015 9:00 AM >>To: yak-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice >> >> >>Thanks Dennis. All this time I thought the emergency was also being >>replenished but I just looked at the schematic. I'll be darn. >>Appreciate the reply. >> >> >> >> >>Read this topic online here: >> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440289#440289 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ky " =ED=9C=A2Z+ M4 G q ( w r =D3=85 =1A I Qh =E9=94=B1 ax =C6=AD r ^j=DB=ABz Z (=1A =C7=AD =E9=9A=9F" =DB=AD X , Z I J r *'=02 ! y =DC=84:0 Z=1Aw =1A =C7=82 E=01=03 , jwf f f i 0 f r ( Z (=1A jB m &j ',r 5 =81=ABh .+- M=13 $ =10=11NEC=12I ' j[(j z =17 y h j=1A ~=1Bm =DF=A2 f r ( =1Bm =DF=A2 f r ( B {k y jy2 *. z . =CB=A9 1 m =1D )=DA=86 i 0 f r ( ( n b xm &j ',r r & *' ' k{ w/ i ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ~44}=1Er{=07(8^a =16=1E=17j',.+-=15=E6=AD=BA5=81=ABh,z+-=D8=A5=D8=9E =CB=9C bp+r=18y' =E5=A1=A7{ ,x(ZP=10>=1A-kkj+yky&j',r5=81=AB h.+-(=1AB=04Ia=01=141$y\{^=D6=A5j)ZnWayg=16


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:32:41 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Air Leak Advice
    From: "Rob Rowe" <yak-list@robrowe.plus.com>
    mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m wrote: > ... but what most folks do not know is that it ALSO injects air into the lower cylinders when the exhaust valves are OPEN (bottom three). ... > -- Being a bit of a pedant I believe it's the lower 4 cylinders (4,5,6,7) that are scavenged on the exhaust stroke. I'll get my coat ... :-) Rob R. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440444#440444


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:30:39 AM PST US
    From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
    Subject: Re: Air Leak Advice
    You are correct. Old age creeping in. Thanks Rob. Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Rowe Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 9:32 AM Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m wrote: > ... but what most folks do not know is that it ALSO injects air into the lower cylinders when the exhaust valves are OPEN (bottom three). ... > -- Being a bit of a pedant I believe it's the lower 4 cylinders (4,5,6,7) that are scavenged on the exhaust stroke. I'll get my coat ... :-) Rob R. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440444#440444


    Message 5


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    Time: 01:31:56 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Air Leak Advice
    From: Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com>
    Yes in painful detail. Well described in the CJ maintenance manual. Much bet ter that Uncle Yakolev's A free beer and suck, bang, blow... That'll make for an interesting time, Pa ppy! =F0=9F=98=9C Doc Sent from my iPad > On Apr 8, 2015, at 6:52 AM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote: > > Did I read hear 'you owe us a beer' AND you'll be at SnF? BAM (by all mea ns) I shall hunt you down! > And for your generous FREE offer, I shall explain in gruesome detail, how to time a starter valve. > > Jim "Pappy" Goolsby > PS I'll be there all week. ;-) > > In a message dated 4/8/2015 1:00:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jim@jimive y.com writes: > Mark, et al... > > > Thank you for your very insightful and borne by experience reply to my Nit rogen comments. Sincerely. Gosh. I learned much today. I guess I am o ne of the lucky ones who have not experienced trouble with Nitrogen starts. But unlike yourself my experience is very limited. > > Herein lies the very nature of the value of the Yak list. Not just this t opic but many others. If anybody hasn't said it recently, thanks to every p articipant. New to the Yak/CJ game or seasoned veteran. Thank you. > > Golly. I think I will stick with breathing air for the refill boost bott le and Nitrogen for struts and tires. I owe all y'all a beer. Speaking of which I will be at Sun N Fun 2015 for the 22nd through the 23rd (sans CJ-6) and the beer offer is good. Sapp? Pappy? Sax? Matt? Any other Yak list attendees, owners or not, at SNF. I am really grateful for everyone here on the Matronics Yak List. You guys are the best. Beer is on me. > > Jim > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> > Date: 04/07/2015 8:58 AM (GMT-07:00) > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice > bitterlich@navy.mil> > > Jim, concur on what you said, but there is somewhat more to consider, both pro and con. > > While air is being injected into one cylinder on the power stroke, another cylinder with no air being injected at all, is on the intake, or compressio n cycle, using nothing but "regular air". That fact supports your premise o f why in theory the engine should start perfectly with nitrogen in the start ing bottle. > > The bad part is that the air distributor is not as straight forward as you might think. Logic says that it simply injects air into each cylinder on t he power stroke, in firing order (kinda like a cars distributor), but what m ost folks do not know is that it ALSO injects air into the lower cylinders w hen the exhaust valves are OPEN (bottom three). Due to camshaft overlap the re will still be some nitrogen in those cylinders when they go into their in take cycle. The Russians designed the air distributor this way to help "blo w out" any oil collected in the lower three, which as everyone knows is a fa ct of life with radials. Their engineers were pretty darn savvy (at least I think so). > > The third variable is the actual timing adjustment of the air distributor. If you talk to anyone that has messed with these jewels, they can be diffi cult to get set "perfectly". It is not unusual for someone to get to the po int where they say: "Heck, that's good enough". Point being, it would not s urprise me if more than a few of our aircraft have this device slightly out o f time. Put all this together, and the end result is that the engine can be harder to start when you have pure nitrogen in the starting bottle, but it a lways WILL start if you "set it up" correctly with priming and pull through. > > So my 2 cents is that EVERYONE is correct regarding this topic! :-) > > Mark > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@ma tronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 9:02 AM > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice > > Jan, > > You are correct. They start fine on Nitrogen. Or any other type of inert gas or straight air. I would use either Nitrogen or bottled "breathing air" as used by fire fighter's breathing apparatus. Whichever is cheaper at yo ur local welding supply shop. > > I run into many who argue Nitrogen doesn't work for starting as it is iner t and thereby non-combustible. That statement only exposes their lack of u nderstanding of the internal combustion engine piston cycle. Starting gas i s injected into each cylinder on it's power stroke when both valves are clos ed, not on it's intake stroke, and then starter gas is expelled through the e xhaust valve on the exhaust stroke. So start air doesn't get involved in th e combustion process. The intake stroke still sucks in the normal fuel/air mixture from the carburetor prior compression and ignition. If, on the ot her hand, the start gas were injected on the intake stroke where would the f uel required for ignition come from? Also with the intake valve open wouldn 't the high pressure starting gas be blown backwards down into the intake an d carburetor? These are the questions to ask the non-Nitrogen starting camp . > > Jim > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be> > Date: 04/07/2015 12:22 AM (GMT-07:00) > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice > > > I like this too. > Once a year I put the plane on jacks and check the emergency system too (n ot having it slam the gear all the way). > At that occasion, both bottles are inspected and I refill completely with i ndustrial-quality dry air. > I thought about doing this annual check and refill with nitrogen, though. > She starts with nitrogen too (done it several times). > > Jan > > > > On 07/04/15 01:33, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" > <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote: > > ><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> > > > >No question that filling the emergency bottle with something like dry > >water pumped nitrogen would be better than filling it from the engine > >compressor Jan. > > > > > > > >But consider this: On your 50, empty the emergency bottle. Easy to do, > >just loosen the fitting on the check valve on the firewall and let it > >bleed to zero. > > > > > > > >Now connect to the external fill connection, and using dry water pumped > >nitrogen, fill it back up to 50 Atmos. Unless your system leaks, that > >nitrogen will stay in there for a LONG time. If you want, empty it > >every year and fill it again to make sure. So you have now accomplished > >the same end that the 52 guys have right now, but more importantly.. if > >you ever have to blow the gear down with the emergency bottle AND IT > >DOES NOT WORK, you can fly around for awhile, let both bottle fill back > >up and try it again. > > > > > > > >Personally, I like that, a LOT. :-) > > > > > > > >Mark > > > > > > > >________________________________ > >From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com > >[owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] on behalf of Jan Mevis > >[jan.mevis@informavia.be] > >Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 12:26 PM > >To: yak-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice > > > > > >One of the reasons could be that the emergency bottle on the 52 gets > >filled with perfectly dry air, from an industrial bottle. > >So less probability of oxidation etc. > >The water separator on the 50 can't do better than that. > >I had to replace the water separator on my 50 almost immediately when I > >bought it 10 years ago. > >It was supposed to be overhauled in 2000 in Shakthy. > >But I'm sure that they kept the original water separator from the > >eighties. > >I still have it, I can simply blow through it without any effort. > > > >Only an educated guess, > > > >Jan > > > >On 06/04/15 17:09, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" > ><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote: > > > >><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> > >> > >>On the 50 it also is filled from the compressor. > >> > >>Wouldn't be too hard to change. I've always been curious why the > >>Russians decided to fill it (from the compressor) on the 50 and not on > >>the 52. > >> > >>Mark > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com > >>[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flier > >>Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2015 9:00 AM > >>To: yak-list@matronics.com > >>Subject: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice > >> > >> > >>Thanks Dennis. All this time I thought the emergency was also being > >>replenished but I just looked at the schematic. I'll be darn. > >>Appreciate the reply. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>Read this topic online here: > >> > >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440289#440289 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ky " =ED=9C=A2Z+ M4 G q ( w r =D3=85 =1A I Qh =E9=94=B1 ax=C6=AD r ^j=DB=ABz Z (=1A =C7=AD =E9=9A=9F" =DB=AD X , Z I J r * '=02 ! y =DC=84:0 Z=1Aw =1A =C7=82 E=01=03 , jwf f f i 0 f r ( Z (=1A jB m > &j ',r 5 =81=ABh .+- M=13 $ =10=11NEC=12I ' j[(j z =17 y h j=1A ~=1Bm =DF=A2 f r ( =1Bm =DF=A2 f r ( B {k y jy2 *. z . =CB=A9 1 m > =1D )=DA=86 i 0 f r ( ( n b xm > &j ',r r & *' ' k{ w/ =============== =========bsp; vigator are, and ======= ========================== ===============; the Web ===== ========================== =================; s nbsp; ======================== ========================== > > > > ~44}=1Er{=07(8^a =16=1E=17j',.+-=15=E6=AD=BA5=81=ABh,z+-=D8=A5=D8=9E=CB =9C bp+r=18y' =E5=A1=A7{ ,x(ZP=10>=1A-kkj+yky&j',r5=81=ABh.+-(=1AB=04Ia=01 =141$y\{^=D6=A5j)ZnWayg=16 > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >


    Message 6


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    Time: 09:22:09 PM PST US
    From: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: Housai Compression
    Paul; The generally accepted minimum is 65/80 (80%). You should do the test as hot as possible and determine where the leakage is coming from. Relatively easy for rings and exhaust valve not so easy for intake valves. The minimum should really only apply to ring leakage. Valve leakage, usually exhaust, needs to be dealt with. I have found with these engines a routine valve adjustment is necessary as the exhaust valve loses clearance and leads to leakage and valve erosion. Walt -- ---Original Message----- From: Okanogan Lew Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 9:07 PM Subject: Yak-List: Housai Compression Guys & Jill, we did the annual compression test today on my CJ6 engine & it ranged from 59-70 psi COLD. What is the minimum acceptable low? Thanks in advance. Paul Lewis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440356#440356




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