Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:01 AM - Hobbs meter (Looigi)
2. 03:14 AM - Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. (JL2A)
3. 04:23 AM - Re: Hobbs meter (A. Dennis Savarese)
4. 04:24 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. (Jan Mevis)
5. 07:06 AM - Re: Hobbs meter (doug sapp)
6. 07:26 AM - Re: Hobbs meter (Jon Blake)
7. 09:44 AM - Re: Hobbs meter (Gary G Gabbard)
8. 09:53 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
9. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
Message 1
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Hello All,
Can anyone cast any light on fitting a Hobbs hour meter to a Yak 52?
Putting the indicator in is easy, but how is it turned on? I am looking for a
method that records flight hours rather than engine hours so a simple oil pressure
switch is probably not going to work.
Has anyone got any other suggestions please?
Many thanks
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442982#442982
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. |
> Since then, I measure substantially higher CHT on all cylinders so better combustion.
Careful! I would have thought having substantially higher CHTs after changing the
ignition system would indicate you've got the timing wrong. A normally set
up factory system is going to light most of the fuel/air, a stronger spark might
help light a little more especially if very lean of peak, but a spark is a
spark, and we've got two per jug in these.
High CHTs are NOT an indicator of 'better' combustion! Unless you mean before your
engine didn't run and now it does! :?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442983#442983
Message 3
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My GPS (Garmin Aera 510) records flight hours based on the ground speed of
the aircraft.=C2- I've forgotten what the ground speed "trigger" is, but
I think it is something like 25 knots or MPH.=C2- If you do use a GPS, ch
eck the manual because I am pretty sure it logs flight time once you start
down the runway and achieve a certain airspeed.=C2- It stops counting onc
e the speed drops below the "trigger" speed.
Dennis
From: Looigi <cdoburton@gmail.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2015 5:00 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Hobbs meter
Hello All,
Can anyone cast any light on fitting a Hobbs hour meter to a Yak 52?
Putting the indicator in is easy, but how is it turned on?=C2- I am looki
ng for a method that records flight hours rather than engine hours so a sim
ple oil pressure switch is probably not going to work.
Has anyone got any other suggestions please?
Many thanks
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442982#442982
S -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. |
The timing is carefully checked and synced between left and right.
But I have an M14R 450 PS engine. Fuel consumption is about twice the
consumption of a standard engine.
I measure the temperature of all the cylinders, and keep these data for
trend evolution.
Since employing the MSD, temperature is 10 to 15 degrees centigrades
higher per cylinder.
I can easily switch back to a coil system (one hour of work) and then the
temperature is "normal".
Jan
On 04/06/15 12:13, "JL2A" <info@flyingwarbirds.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>> Since then, I measure substantially higher CHT on all cylinders so
>>better combustion.
>
>
>Careful! I would have thought having substantially higher CHTs after
>changing the ignition system would indicate you've got the timing wrong.
>A normally set up factory system is going to light most of the fuel/air,
>a stronger spark might help light a little more especially if very lean
>of peak, but a spark is a spark, and we've got two per jug in these.
>
>High CHTs are NOT an indicator of 'better' combustion! Unless you mean
>before your engine didn't run and now it does! :?
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442983#442983
>
>
Message 5
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Why not pull power off the gear up light?
Doug
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 4:19 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> My GPS (Garmin Aera 510) records flight hours based on the ground speed of
> the aircraft. I've forgotten what the ground speed "trigger" is, but I
> think it is something like 25 knots or MPH. If you do use a GPS, check the
> manual because I am pretty sure it logs flight time once you start down the
> runway and achieve a certain airspeed. It stops counting once the speed
> drops below the "trigger" speed.
> Dennis
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Looigi <cdoburton@gmail.com>
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 4, 2015 5:00 AM
> *Subject:* Yak-List: Hobbs meter
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> Can anyone cast any light on fitting a Hobbs hour meter to a Yak 52?
>
> Putting the indicator in is easy, but how is it turned on? I am looking
> for a method that records flight hours rather than engine hours so a simple
> oil pressure switch is probably not going to work.
>
> Has anyone got any other suggestions please?
>
> Many thanks
> Chris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442982#442982
>
> http://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 6
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Message 7
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Flight time for your personal log log book is time out of the chocks, and ti
me back into the chocks. Aircraft time for the airplane maintenance time and
total Acft time is recorded from takeoff to landing.
Gary
CJ N22YK
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 4, 2015, at 07:25, Jon Blake <jblake207@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> If the purpose is recording flight, then shouldn't that time begin when yo
u pull out of the chalks and stop at engine shut down? BTW I use the GPS met
hod Dennis described. JB
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
>
>
> doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Why not pull power off the gear up light?
> Doug
>
>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 4:19 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsou
th.net> wrote:
>> My GPS (Garmin Aera 510) records flight hours based on the ground speed o
f the aircraft.=C3=82 I've forgotten what the ground speed "trigger" is, bu
t I think it is something like 25 knots or MPH.=C3=82 If you do use a GPS, c
heck the manual because I am pretty sure it logs flight time once you start d
own the runway and achieve a certain airspeed.=C3=82 It stops counting once
the speed drops below the "trigger" speed.
>> Dennis
>>
>> From: Looigi <cdoburton@gmail.com>
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2015 5:00 AM
>> Subject: Yak-List: Hobbs meter
>>
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> Can anyone cast any light on fitting a Hobbs hour meter to a Yak 52?
>>
>> Putting the indicator in is easy, but how is it turned on?=C3=82 I am lo
oking for a method that records flight hours rather than engine hours so a s
imple oil pressure switch is probably not going to work.
>>
>> Has anyone got any other suggestions please?
>>
>> Many thanks
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442982#442982
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. |
starts.
It's nice to hear about someone else with Vertex mag experience! I
never ran the MSD mags.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frank
Stelwagon
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops.
starts.
--> <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
As an aside, in racing for years the magneto of choice was the Vertex
which had the coil internal. When Mallory came out with their magnetos
they used an external coil. Eventually Vertex went to the external
coil. The MSD magnetos used in top fuel racing use external coils and
they are extremely high output. Just for what it is worth.
Frank
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops.
starts.
>
> Doc,
>
>
> I thought that this list was aimed at discussing Yak / Nanchang /
engine
> matters, and this thread is about one of the misteries of these
aircraft.
>
> This coil behaviour is particular and has to be a consequence of the
way
> it is designed. Nobody really knows what happens.
>
> So we all have to try and dig up as much information as we can and
> fortunately there are some very knowledgeable people on this list who
want
> to share what they know.
>
> And I am certainly not one of those very knowledgeable people.
>
> It is near to impossible to get detailed descriptions from the
> manufacturers.
>
> Because it didn't work like that back in the USSR. Technical
documentation
> was State Secret, almost always.
>
> Planes were delivered via DOSAAF to flying clubs without any real
manuals.
> Mechanics learned the trade from other mechanics.
>
> If a local mechanic needed some specific information from the
> manufacturer, the only way was to do a request via DOSAAF.
>
> Last time when I was in Russia, I asked about some tech doc, and the
> answer was astonishing: you have to ask DOSAAF!
>
> Apparently that organisation still exists: a few old guys and girls in
a
> dusty office waiting for their pension.
>
> Anyway, simply replacing parts without exactly knowing what's wrong,
makes
> me feel uneasy.
>
>
> BR,
>
> Jan
>
> On 04/06/15 02:35, "Roger Kemp" <f16viperdoc@me.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Okay, can the spear be removed now? In layman's terms the aged coil
broke
>>down under chronic heat load from who knows why and puked a high
voltage
>>discharge that resulted in a misfire somewhere in the bowels of the
>>engine that consumed enough fuel charge to make the engine stop for a
>>heartbeat puking black smoke out of somewhere under the chin of the
>>engine cowl resulting in sucking of the seat pack up mine and
Mongooses
>>collective asses before the prop resumed making thrusties and we
aborted
>>the flight landing at the nearest paved Terra firma! For those that
have
>>never had the experience...it is fucking impressive! Not quit as
>>impressive as a main bearing failure in a GE 100 though. Luckily that
>>came on engine start. Shut that puppy down and we handed the keys back
to
>>chief and stepped to the spare.
>>Anyway as I said in my one liner early in this diatribe of a
>>thread...change the fucking coil or both coils...it will fix the
problem
>>and you will sleep better knowing your little magnetos are again
making
>>voltage for your spark plugs in the normal firing order so you can
break
>>the bonds of Terra firma and look down on all the poor schmucks stuck
on
>>the interstates trudging along never knowing the pleasures of dancing
>>with the wind and cloud chasing !
>>Nuf said.
>>Doc
>>
>>Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Jun 3, 2015, at 10:16 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
>>><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>>>
>>><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>
>>> Jan,
>>>
>>> I never considered a corona in action. Just for the sake of
>>>discussion, I'll mention that I measured the heat rise in a MSD
Blaster
>>>II coil using an infra-red gun and it is significant (and it is also
oil
>>>filled), which is kind of why I started wondering if it really is
just
>>>engine heat that is involved. No doubt heat is contributory, but
while
>>>it might be an insignificant point, I question whether it is all
engine
>>>heat and not just self-induced, or maybe a combination of both.
>>>
>>> So I am trying to get my mind around this. Without creating an
actual
>>>arc, the corona should rob energy from the coil correct? Not to
>>>mention if there is moist air...... there should be the formation of
>>>nitric acid, although since the premise is that there is such a small
>>>amount of air and water available, that might not be much ... but
>>>never-the-less there should be a chemical reaction that also would be
>>>contributory to insulation loss.
>>>
>>> Another thought is that the high voltage potential necessary for a
>>>corona to form would not be present throughout the whole coil but
>>>instead only near a certain percentage near the end where the voltage
>>>becomes "high enough" voltage to create corona loss.
>>>
>>> The problem I have with this explanation is understanding why it
would
>>>make the engine run rough, cough, lug, etc., with the opposite mag
>>>operating properly? I can see where it could cause the engine to
run
>>>rough or misfire on that one mag, but how would it do it with both
>>>operating?
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 1:06 AM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts.
>>>stops. starts.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Mark, Walt,
>>>
>>> What I think that happens, is corona discharge in the coil.
>>> Typically these coils start malfunctioning after 20, 30 minutes,
when
>>>the heat of the engine is well diffused into the coil.
>>> Corona discharge is caused by imperfections in the insulation of the
>>>coil.
>>>
>>> The original Russian (and I suppose the same for the Chinese) coils
>>>were made manually (in labour camps !) and layer after layer of
winding,
>>>insulation resins are applied.
>>> These resins are diluted with solvents for better applicance. And
>>>that's where it goes wrong after some years.
>>>
>>> The solvents evaporate and create tiny tunnels in the coil where
moist
>>>air can get trapped.
>>> Then at higher temperature, you get discharging but not a real
>>>electrical breakdown.
>>>
>>> So once the coil cools down again, everything is normal again and
>>>subsequent testing on the ground reveals no problem anymore.
>>>
>>> The difficult issue in this theory is that we don't have an exact
>>>picture of how it exactly happens.
>>> I'd like to SEE it happen, but I don't have the money to investigate
>>>that.
>>>
>>> Of course you can get other problems such as a failing capacitor.
>>> This capacitor is only two tiny sheets of metal wrapped around with
the
>>>same insulation material applied in between.
>>> The capacitance is rather low and if you measure it between
different
>>>coils, it varies substantially.
>>>
>>> Modern ways of making coils first use high vacuum procedures to
>>>evacuate all the air.
>>>
>>> Then high-quality insulation products are applied under high
pressure.
>>>
>>> Since the wire of the secondary is so thin, it's an art to warrant
the
>>>insulation product being well applied everywhere. That's why making a
>>>new coil is expensive.
>>>
>>> In order to achieve a perfect insulation, you don't re-use the
bakelite
>>>flanges, but modern transformer cardboard that gets well penetrated
with
>>>insulation product.
>>>
>>>
>>> Only my 2 cents,
>>>
>>> Jan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 02/06/15 22:16, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
>>> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>>>
>>>> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>>
>>>> Walt > I have been trying to get my head around this theory of a
>>>> "massive discharge" etc. but have been too busy of late to sit down
>>>>and think it
>>>> through. So far it just doesn't compute.
>>>>
>>>> I concur. There is no failure mode that can occur that would
increase
>>>> the intensity of the firing pulse above what it was designed to
>>>>provide.
>>>>
>>>> Walt > I have had only one coil failure in forty years of playing
with
>>>> radial engines. That was in a Harvard with Bosch mags. That mag
>>>>simply
>>>> quit
>>>> working, not intermittent, no bangs or whatever just simply and
>>>> permanently dead.
>>>>
>>>> The interesting thing about the original Russian coil designs is
that
>>>> the condenser is actually integral and internal to the coil itself.
>>>> Rather unusual. Since coils get hot, this also means the trapped
heat
>>>> is applied to the condenser as well. The common discussion theme
>>>> regarding the topic under discussion (which is: Engine roughness,
as
>>>>in stops.
>>>> starts. stops. starts.) is that it is related to "engine heat".
>>>> Actually, I believe that is not quite accurate. I personally
believe
>>>> the problem is related to HEAT IN THE COIL, which is not
necessarily
>>>> synonymous with engine heat. In addition, since the coil assembly
is
>>>> internal to the mag, there is no easy way to get rid of that heat
and
>>>> it becomes cumulative.
>>>>
>>>> If that premise is accurate, then emphasis might be placed on what
>>>> external factors increase heat in the coil since regardless of
whether
>>>> we are talking coil windings, or condenser malfunction, heat is the
>>>>enemy.
>>>> Kind of an "AHA" moment. Things such as spark plug gap, what spark
>>>> plug wires are used, point dwell (!!), etc., all would impact coil
>>>>heat.
>>>>
>>>> Best to you Walt,
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter
Lannon
>>>> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 10:31 PM
>>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts.
>>>>stops.
>>>> starts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mark;
>>>>
>>>> I have been trying to get my head around this theory of a "massive
>>>> discharge" etc. but have been too busy of late to sit down and
think it
>>>> through. So far it just doesn't compute.
>>>> I have had only one coil failure in forty years of playing with
radial
>>>> engines. That was in a Harvard with Bosch mags. That mag simply
quit
>>>> working, not intermittent, no bangs or whatever just simply and
>>>> permanently dead.
>>>> Right now dead tired and another full day tomorrow.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers;
>>>> Walt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
>>>> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 8:00 AM
>>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts.
>>>>stops.
>>>> starts.
>>>>
>>>> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well.. Doc, I think there might have been a misunderstanding
somewhere
>>>> along the line. This is not a reasonable explanation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger
Kemp
>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 12:48 PM
>>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts.
>>>>stops.
>>>> starts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As explained by the Lithuanian engineers the massive discharge with
>>>>the
>>>> heat induced break down of the capacitor in the coil results in
arcing
>>>> in the distributor cap so that discharge flows / jumps to the next
>>>> cylinder in line on the intake stroke. With the intake valve open
when
>>>> that aberrant discharge arrives the spark will consume the
>>>>supercharger
>>>> contents. The backfire is most likely through the carb when the
charge
>>>> is consumed.
>>>> The pilots of the aircraft in formation with me said they saw a
>>>>sudden
>>>> belch of black smoke from under the chin of my bird. I felt the
>>>> hesitation as well as saw the momentary hesitation of the prop
slowing.
>>>> Then the engine picked back up like nothing occurred. Have had that
>>>> happen twice since owning my 52. Did an airborne mag check the
second
>>>> time with the engine quitting on selection of the #1 mag. In both
>>>>cases
>>>> changing the mag coils resolved the problem.
>>>> Litaurus and Termikus are the bearers of that tidbit of info. Made
>>>> sense to me then and now.
>>>> Doc
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>>> On May 31, 2015, at 3:38 AM, JL2A <info@flyingwarbirds.com.au>
wrote:
>>>>>
<info@flyingwarbirds.com.au>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm with Egon, getting an engine anywhere near 200=B0C on the
ground is
>>>>>
>>>>> very hard on them, let alone 250=B0C. Without the proper cooling
>>>>>airflow
>>>>> wrapping around the cylinders they are getting unevenly hot, with
>>>>> hotspots that may exceed the temperature of where the thermocouple
is
>>>>> placed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've got to ask - what are we talking about lighting the whole
>>>>> supercharger 'charge' on fire?
>>>>>
>>>>> Do they mean the spark is so advanced it lights off way early and
the
>>>>> flame front travels backwards through the induction system? Is
this
>>>>> even physically at anything above starting RPM?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442829#442829
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. |
All things being equal I would agree. However all things are not.... not really.
A gross change in flame propagation will indeed change CHT. Typical M-14's and
especially the M-9R ... are always run extremely rich. In fact the fuel is
actually used for cooling and keeps the CHT in range. So you're dumping a lot
of unburnt fuel out the exhaust on a regular basis, and this is necessary condition.
If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these engines, the CHT will
head to the moon. So when you introduce a spark like an MSD produces... it is
not just a spark, it is an extremely long duration event, which turns more of
that fuel into energy, and the result is more power produced, but also less
cooling, since more of that excess fuel is now turned into power.
Concur that timing changes also impact CHT of course.. no disagreement.
Jan is running an M-9R (are you familiar with that particular engine? I ask because
very few people even know they exist. Jan had at one time a movie of an
engine start. Starting and running on the stock mag it was spitting and barking
as it warmed up. He then switched the MSD system in and the engine idled
perfectly ... clock like in fact.... when dead cold.
Jan's mech is also EXTREMELY proficient with these engines, and the timing is dead
on.
So actually Jan knows exactly where-of he speaks.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JL2A
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 6:14 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts.
> Since then, I measure substantially higher CHT on all cylinders so better combustion.
Careful! I would have thought having substantially higher CHTs after changing the
ignition system would indicate you've got the timing wrong. A normally set
up factory system is going to light most of the fuel/air, a stronger spark might
help light a little more especially if very lean of peak, but a spark is a
spark, and we've got two per jug in these.
High CHTs are NOT an indicator of 'better' combustion! Unless you mean before your
engine didn't run and now it does! :?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442983#442983
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