Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:36 AM - Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. (JL2A)
2. 06:01 AM - Re: CJ Main Landing Light (JL2A)
3. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. (Jan Mevis)
4. 09:23 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
5. 10:00 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. (Richard Goode)
6. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. (Jan Mevis)
7. 10:32 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
8. 10:49 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. (A. Dennis Savarese)
9. 11:10 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. (Jan Mevis)
10. 11:15 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. (Jan Mevis)
11. 04:39 PM - Re: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. (cjpilot710)
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. |
> If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these engines, the CHT will head to the
moon. So when you introduce a spark like an MSD produces... it is not just
a spark, it is an extremely long duration event, which turns more of that fuel
into energy, and the result is more power produced, but also less cooling, since
more of that excess fuel is now turned into power. If you tune for "perfect
combustion" on these engines, the CHT will head to the moon. So when you introduce
a spark like an MSD produces... it is not just a spark, it is an extremely
long duration event, which turns more of that fuel into energy, and the result
is more power produced, but also less cooling, since more of that excess
fuel is now turned into power.
Thanks Mark, very interesting. I had not considered a very rich mixture and the
effects spark on flame propagation. Your example of smooth cold idling is interesting
and am assuming it illustrates the benefits of spark on very rich mixtures.
In those comments I had assumed we were talking about 'normal' engine operation,
i.e., cruise or 50-70% power. I had no idea that the M14R 450 PS engine runs
extremely rich even at this setting.
> Fuel consumption is about twice the consumption of a standard engine.
Any idea why?
My non-expert knowledge can only guess that pulling 450PS out of this engine even
at cruise power the internal cylinder pressures are still so high (in relation
to the initial design of 360hp) that the only way to slow combustion down
enough (hence lower ICPs) is to run very rich mixture.
Which leads to another point - and if I'm wrong above then I'm justing getting
even more wrong but hey, I'm learning stuff here - why not run these engines very
lean of peak. A much more cost effective way of lowering ICP's and as practised
on very high specific output western radial engines like the R-3350 etc.
It sounds as though the MSD would be of great benefit to smooth and efficient
LOP operation!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444157#444157
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| Subject: | Re: CJ Main Landing Light |
Good idea! Straight forward enough swap?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444162#444162
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. |
The 450 PS engines run very rich by design. At full power, the CHT and oil
temp go to the red zone very fast.
I replaced the standard oil cooler by an oil cooler from an MI 8
helicopter (a lot bigger).
Now oil temp is ok, all the time.
But CHT can be problematic. When it's very hot outside, I simply don't fly.
Another peculiar thing about the 450 PS engine: CHT has to be kept above
170 degrees centigrades (when in the circuit).
At lower temperature the plugs foul up rapidly.
Fuel consumption of the M14R is about 130 liters/hour at 82/80 settings.
At fully fine, full throttle, it is 220 liters/hour.
The blower in the supercharger runs tremendously fast and has been
constructed by Lyulka (now Saturn) the company that makes the engines for
the Flanker etc.
Intake pressure goes to 1150 mmHg.
So, for a 25% increase in power, I have to feed the horses twice as much.
But the reward is absolutely amazing. You get an incredible torque.
Jan
On 29/06/15 14:32, "JL2A" <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf
of info@flyingwarbirds.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>> If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these engines, the CHT will
>>head to the moon. So when you introduce a spark like an MSD produces...
>>it is not just a spark, it is an extremely long duration event, which
>>turns more of that fuel into energy, and the result is more power
>>produced, but also less cooling, since more of that excess fuel is now
>>turned into power. If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these
>>engines, the CHT will head to the moon. So when you introduce a spark
>>like an MSD produces... it is not just a spark, it is an extremely long
>>duration event, which turns more of that fuel into energy, and the
>>result is more power produced, but also less cooling, since more of that
>>excess fuel is now turned into power.
>
>
>Thanks Mark, very interesting. I had not considered a very rich mixture
>and the effects spark on flame propagation. Your example of smooth cold
>idling is interesting and am assuming it illustrates the benefits of
>spark on very rich mixtures.
>
>In those comments I had assumed we were talking about 'normal' engine
>operation, i.e., cruise or 50-70% power. I had no idea that the M14R 450
>PS engine runs extremely rich even at this setting.
>> Fuel consumption is about twice the consumption of a standard engine.
>
>
>Any idea why?
>
>My non-expert knowledge can only guess that pulling 450PS out of this
>engine even at cruise power the internal cylinder pressures are still so
>high (in relation to the initial design of 360hp) that the only way to
>slow combustion down enough (hence lower ICPs) is to run very rich
>mixture.
>
>Which leads to another point - and if I'm wrong above then I'm justing
>getting even more wrong but hey, I'm learning stuff here - why not run
>these engines very lean of peak. A much more cost effective way of
>lowering ICP's and as practised on very high specific output western
>radial engines like the R-3350 etc. It sounds as though the MSD would be
>of great benefit to smooth and efficient LOP operation!
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444157#444157
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. |
> Your example of smooth cold idling is interesting and am assuming it illustrates
the benefits of spark on very rich mixtures.
The MSD system actually stands for "Multiple Spark Discharge". At idle, there
are actually multiple "sparks" occurring at the plug that go a long way to initiate
a solid burn. The same premise could be shown on an old 327 Chevy engine
with a Rochester carb and a temperature controlled choke plate. In cold weather
on initial start-up, that engine had to be idled quite high and with a very
rich mixture. Look at what we have today with direct port fuel injection,
computer controlled ignition, etc. You turn the key, the engine starts and
runs like a watch. The only cold start mechanism we have on the M-14 is prime,
and the rest is left up to the operator. Get it started, and keep it running,
often with continued shots of prime. The MSD system was an amazing demonstration
of what good ignition can do. The video in question actually compared
running on one M9F mag, and then bringing in the MSD. It was not a small change,
it was like a "wow, listen to that" moment.
> In those comments I had assumed we were talking about 'normal' engine operation,
i.e., cruise or 50-70% power. I had no idea that the M14R 450 PS engine runs
extremely rich even at this setting.
Actually "normal" engine operation of the M-14 runs the gamut. You mention cruise
at 50-70% power. Some owners of these engines do run them like that, including
many on this list. However, many others on this list, including myself
by the way, do not. My engine RARELY spins below 80%, except when I taxi. :-)
There are reasons for this, but it is in the end an individual choice. An
example is many of the guys running these engines in competitive aerobatics.
They are either WFO, or at idle. Very little in-between, and this does not
seem to bother them at all. In fact, I believe the M-14 likes to be run hard
as long as CHT and oil temps are within range. Of course this is completely open
for debate as many feel otherwise. The only real key takeaway from this is
the fact that engine cooling on the M-14 is impacted tremendously by adding
extra fuel. The last thing to remember is that THERE IS NO MANUAL MIXTURE CONTROL.
Mixture is adjusted automatically by a barostat internal to the pressure
carb. This is not unique to the Russian engines alone. Lycoming did the exact
same thing with the GSO-480 series, running a PS-7BD pressure carb, and in
fact with those engines if you pulled back on manifold pressure while keeping
engine RPM up, the CHT and EGT's would climb to the moon once again because the
when you pulled back on the throttle, the auto-mixture control would make the
engine go lean and up go the temps. You actually have to keep manifold pressure
UP, to get the engine rich, to cool it. Same exact thing the Russians did.
>> Fuel consumption is about twice the consumption of a standard engine.
> Any idea why?
The more power generated, the more heat has to be dissipated.
> Which leads to another point - and if I'm wrong above then I'm justing getting
even more wrong but hey, I'm learning stuff here - why not run these engines
very lean of peak
Because there is no manual mixture control.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JL2A
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 8:33 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts.
> If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these engines, the CHT will head to the
moon. So when you introduce a spark like an MSD produces... it is not just
a spark, it is an extremely long duration event, which turns more of that fuel
into energy, and the result is more power produced, but also less cooling, since
more of that excess fuel is now turned into power. If you tune for "perfect
combustion" on these engines, the CHT will head to the moon. So when you introduce
a spark like an MSD produces... it is not just a spark, it is an extremely
long duration event, which turns more of that fuel into energy, and the result
is more power produced, but also less cooling, since more of that excess
fuel is now turned into power.
Thanks Mark, very interesting. I had not considered a very rich mixture and the
effects spark on flame propagation. Your example of smooth cold idling is interesting
and am assuming it illustrates the benefits of spark on very rich mixtures.
In those comments I had assumed we were talking about 'normal' engine operation,
i.e., cruise or 50-70% power. I had no idea that the M14R 450 PS engine runs
extremely rich even at this setting.
> Fuel consumption is about twice the consumption of a standard engine.
Any idea why?
My non-expert knowledge can only guess that pulling 450PS out of this engine even
at cruise power the internal cylinder pressures are still so high (in relation
to the initial design of 360hp) that the only way to slow combustion down
enough (hence lower ICPs) is to run very rich mixture.
Which leads to another point - and if I'm wrong above then I'm justing getting
even more wrong but hey, I'm learning stuff here - why not run these engines very
lean of peak. A much more cost effective way of lowering ICP's and as practised
on very high specific output western radial engines like the R-3350 etc.
It sounds as though the MSD would be of great benefit to smooth and efficient
LOP operation!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444157#444157
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. |
We funded OKBM (Vedenyeev) for the development of the M 14 R. It genuinely
does give the power, but is rather too specialised an engine for general use
as Jan implies. As he correctly says, Lyulka were responsible for the
supercharger, which is where the extra power is developed.
If you look at the impeller and diffuser of a standard engine, you will see
that, in supercharger terms, they are very crude with the vanes only having
single-plane curvature and clearly much less efficient than they could be.
So Vedenyeev went to Lyulka, who make the exceedingly fine and powerful jet
engines for the Sukhoi 27 family of fighters, and they produced a new
impeller and diffuser with compound curvature.
Also the impeller is turned a little faster - unfortunately I can't find the
figure at the moment - than the M 14 PF, which again helps.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: 29 June 2015 17:10
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops.
starts.
The 450 PS engines run very rich by design. At full power, the CHT and oil
temp go to the red zone very fast.
I replaced the standard oil cooler by an oil cooler from an MI 8 helicopter
(a lot bigger).
Now oil temp is ok, all the time.
But CHT can be problematic. When it's very hot outside, I simply don't fly.
Another peculiar thing about the 450 PS engine: CHT has to be kept above
170 degrees centigrades (when in the circuit).
At lower temperature the plugs foul up rapidly.
Fuel consumption of the M14R is about 130 liters/hour at 82/80 settings.
At fully fine, full throttle, it is 220 liters/hour.
The blower in the supercharger runs tremendously fast and has been
constructed by Lyulka (now Saturn) the company that makes the engines for
the Flanker etc.
Intake pressure goes to 1150 mmHg.
So, for a 25% increase in power, I have to feed the horses twice as much.
But the reward is absolutely amazing. You get an incredible torque.
Jan
On 29/06/15 14:32, "JL2A" <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of
info@flyingwarbirds.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>> If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these engines, the CHT will
>>head to the moon. So when you introduce a spark like an MSD produces...
>>it is not just a spark, it is an extremely long duration event, which
>>turns more of that fuel into energy, and the result is more power
>>produced, but also less cooling, since more of that excess fuel is now
>>turned into power. If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these
>>engines, the CHT will head to the moon. So when you introduce a spark
>>like an MSD produces... it is not just a spark, it is an extremely
>>long duration event, which turns more of that fuel into energy, and
>>the result is more power produced, but also less cooling, since more
>>of that excess fuel is now turned into power.
>
>
>Thanks Mark, very interesting. I had not considered a very rich mixture
>and the effects spark on flame propagation. Your example of smooth cold
>idling is interesting and am assuming it illustrates the benefits of
>spark on very rich mixtures.
>
>In those comments I had assumed we were talking about 'normal' engine
>operation, i.e., cruise or 50-70% power. I had no idea that the M14R
>450 PS engine runs extremely rich even at this setting.
>> Fuel consumption is about twice the consumption of a standard engine.
>
>
>Any idea why?
>
>My non-expert knowledge can only guess that pulling 450PS out of this
>engine even at cruise power the internal cylinder pressures are still
>so high (in relation to the initial design of 360hp) that the only way
>to slow combustion down enough (hence lower ICPs) is to run very rich
>mixture.
>
>Which leads to another point - and if I'm wrong above then I'm justing
>getting even more wrong but hey, I'm learning stuff here - why not run
>these engines very lean of peak. A much more cost effective way of
>lowering ICP's and as practised on very high specific output western
>radial engines like the R-3350 etc. It sounds as though the MSD would
>be of great benefit to smooth and efficient LOP operation!
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444157#444157
>
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. |
Hi Richard,
Attached the picture that I got from you some time ago.
If I remember well, the impeller goes faster on the M14R.
Jan
On 29/06/15 18:57, "Richard Goode" <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on
behalf of richard.goode@russianaeros.com> wrote:
><richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
>
>We funded OKBM (Vedenyeev) for the development of the M 14 R. It genuinely
>does give the power, but is rather too specialised an engine for general
>use
>as Jan implies. As he correctly says, Lyulka were responsible for the
>supercharger, which is where the extra power is developed.
>
>If you look at the impeller and diffuser of a standard engine, you will
>see
>that, in supercharger terms, they are very crude with the vanes only
>having
>single-plane curvature and clearly much less efficient than they could be.
>So Vedenyeev went to Lyulka, who make the exceedingly fine and powerful
>jet
>engines for the Sukhoi 27 family of fighters, and they produced a new
>impeller and diffuser with compound curvature.
>
>Also the impeller is turned a little faster - unfortunately I can't find
>the
>figure at the moment - than the M 14 PF, which again helps.
>
>Richard Goode Aerobatics
>Rhodds Farm
>Lyonshall
>Hereford
>HR5 3LW
>
>Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
>Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
>www.russianaeros.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
>Sent: 29 June 2015 17:10
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops.
>starts.
>
>
>The 450 PS engines run very rich by design. At full power, the CHT and oil
>temp go to the red zone very fast.
>I replaced the standard oil cooler by an oil cooler from an MI 8
>helicopter
>(a lot bigger).
>Now oil temp is ok, all the time.
>But CHT can be problematic. When it's very hot outside, I simply don't
>fly.
>
>Another peculiar thing about the 450 PS engine: CHT has to be kept above
>170 degrees centigrades (when in the circuit).
>At lower temperature the plugs foul up rapidly.
>
>Fuel consumption of the M14R is about 130 liters/hour at 82/80 settings.
>At fully fine, full throttle, it is 220 liters/hour.
>
>The blower in the supercharger runs tremendously fast and has been
>constructed by Lyulka (now Saturn) the company that makes the engines for
>the Flanker etc.
>Intake pressure goes to 1150 mmHg.
>
>So, for a 25% increase in power, I have to feed the horses twice as much.
>But the reward is absolutely amazing. You get an incredible torque.
>
>
>Jan
>
>On 29/06/15 14:32, "JL2A" <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf
>of
>info@flyingwarbirds.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these engines, the CHT will
>>>head to the moon. So when you introduce a spark like an MSD produces...
>>>it is not just a spark, it is an extremely long duration event, which
>>>turns more of that fuel into energy, and the result is more power
>>>produced, but also less cooling, since more of that excess fuel is now
>>>turned into power. If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these
>>>engines, the CHT will head to the moon. So when you introduce a spark
>>>like an MSD produces... it is not just a spark, it is an extremely
>>>long duration event, which turns more of that fuel into energy, and
>>>the result is more power produced, but also less cooling, since more
>>>of that excess fuel is now turned into power.
>>
>>
>>Thanks Mark, very interesting. I had not considered a very rich mixture
>>and the effects spark on flame propagation. Your example of smooth cold
>>idling is interesting and am assuming it illustrates the benefits of
>>spark on very rich mixtures.
>>
>>In those comments I had assumed we were talking about 'normal' engine
>>operation, i.e., cruise or 50-70% power. I had no idea that the M14R
>>450 PS engine runs extremely rich even at this setting.
>>> Fuel consumption is about twice the consumption of a standard engine.
>>
>>
>>Any idea why?
>>
>>My non-expert knowledge can only guess that pulling 450PS out of this
>>engine even at cruise power the internal cylinder pressures are still
>>so high (in relation to the initial design of 360hp) that the only way
>>to slow combustion down enough (hence lower ICPs) is to run very rich
>>mixture.
>>
>>Which leads to another point - and if I'm wrong above then I'm justing
>>getting even more wrong but hey, I'm learning stuff here - why not run
>>these engines very lean of peak. A much more cost effective way of
>>lowering ICP's and as practised on very high specific output western
>>radial engines like the R-3350 etc. It sounds as though the MSD would
>>be of great benefit to smooth and efficient LOP operation!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444157#444157
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. |
Jan,
Thought you might find it interesting that the Lycoming GSO-480 runs 1219 mmHg
at take-off (48"). Continuing the conversation about fuel cooling the engine,
this opposed 6 cylinder engine is "only" developing 340 horsepower but at this
take-off power setting is burning 52 gallons per hour, versus your 58 GPH with
over 100 more horsepower, so in reality you are doing quite well!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts.
The 450 PS engines run very rich by design. At full power, the CHT and oil temp
go to the red zone very fast.
I replaced the standard oil cooler by an oil cooler from an MI 8 helicopter (a
lot bigger).
Now oil temp is ok, all the time.
But CHT can be problematic. When it's very hot outside, I simply don't fly.
Another peculiar thing about the 450 PS engine: CHT has to be kept above
170 degrees centigrades (when in the circuit).
At lower temperature the plugs foul up rapidly.
Fuel consumption of the M14R is about 130 liters/hour at 82/80 settings.
At fully fine, full throttle, it is 220 liters/hour.
The blower in the supercharger runs tremendously fast and has been constructed
by Lyulka (now Saturn) the company that makes the engines for the Flanker etc.
Intake pressure goes to 1150 mmHg.
So, for a 25% increase in power, I have to feed the horses twice as much.
But the reward is absolutely amazing. You get an incredible torque.
Jan
On 29/06/15 14:32, "JL2A" <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of info@flyingwarbirds.com.au>
wrote:
>
>
>> If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these engines, the CHT will
>>head to the moon. So when you introduce a spark like an MSD produces...
>>it is not just a spark, it is an extremely long duration event, which
>>turns more of that fuel into energy, and the result is more power
>>produced, but also less cooling, since more of that excess fuel is now
>>turned into power. If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these
>>engines, the CHT will head to the moon. So when you introduce a spark
>>like an MSD produces... it is not just a spark, it is an extremely
>>long duration event, which turns more of that fuel into energy, and
>>the result is more power produced, but also less cooling, since more
>>of that excess fuel is now turned into power.
>
>
>Thanks Mark, very interesting. I had not considered a very rich mixture
>and the effects spark on flame propagation. Your example of smooth cold
>idling is interesting and am assuming it illustrates the benefits of
>spark on very rich mixtures.
>
>In those comments I had assumed we were talking about 'normal' engine
>operation, i.e., cruise or 50-70% power. I had no idea that the M14R
>450 PS engine runs extremely rich even at this setting.
>> Fuel consumption is about twice the consumption of a standard engine.
>
>
>Any idea why?
>
>My non-expert knowledge can only guess that pulling 450PS out of this
>engine even at cruise power the internal cylinder pressures are still
>so high (in relation to the initial design of 360hp) that the only way
>to slow combustion down enough (hence lower ICPs) is to run very rich
>mixture.
>
>Which leads to another point - and if I'm wrong above then I'm justing
>getting even more wrong but hey, I'm learning stuff here - why not run
>these engines very lean of peak. A much more cost effective way of
>lowering ICP's and as practised on very high specific output western
>radial engines like the R-3350 etc. It sounds as though the MSD would
>be of great benefit to smooth and efficient LOP operation!
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444157#444157
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. |
That should remind us all that airplaneengines do not run on fuel. They
run on money! :-)
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 6/29/2015 12:29 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD wrote:
> Jan,
>
> Thought you might find it interesting that the Lycoming GSO-480 runs 1219 mmHg
at take-off (48"). Continuing the conversation about fuel cooling the engine,
this opposed 6 cylinder engine is "only" developing 340 horsepower but at
this take-off power setting is burning 52 gallons per hour, versus your 58 GPH
with over 100 more horsepower, so in reality you are doing quite well!
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 12:10 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts.
>
>
> The 450 PS engines run very rich by design. At full power, the CHT and oil temp
go to the red zone very fast.
> I replaced the standard oil cooler by an oil cooler from an MI 8 helicopter (a
lot bigger).
> Now oil temp is ok, all the time.
> But CHT can be problematic. When it's very hot outside, I simply don't fly.
>
> Another peculiar thing about the 450 PS engine: CHT has to be kept above
> 170 degrees centigrades (when in the circuit).
> At lower temperature the plugs foul up rapidly.
>
> Fuel consumption of the M14R is about 130 liters/hour at 82/80 settings.
> At fully fine, full throttle, it is 220 liters/hour.
>
> The blower in the supercharger runs tremendously fast and has been constructed
by Lyulka (now Saturn) the company that makes the engines for the Flanker etc.
> Intake pressure goes to 1150 mmHg.
>
> So, for a 25% increase in power, I have to feed the horses twice as much.
> But the reward is absolutely amazing. You get an incredible torque.
>
>
> Jan
>
> On 29/06/15 14:32, "JL2A" <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of info@flyingwarbirds.com.au>
wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these engines, the CHT will
>>> head to the moon. So when you introduce a spark like an MSD produces...
>>> it is not just a spark, it is an extremely long duration event, which
>>> turns more of that fuel into energy, and the result is more power
>>> produced, but also less cooling, since more of that excess fuel is now
>>> turned into power. If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these
>>> engines, the CHT will head to the moon. So when you introduce a spark
>>> like an MSD produces... it is not just a spark, it is an extremely
>>> long duration event, which turns more of that fuel into energy, and
>>> the result is more power produced, but also less cooling, since more
>>> of that excess fuel is now turned into power.
>>
>> Thanks Mark, very interesting. I had not considered a very rich mixture
>> and the effects spark on flame propagation. Your example of smooth cold
>> idling is interesting and am assuming it illustrates the benefits of
>> spark on very rich mixtures.
>>
>> In those comments I had assumed we were talking about 'normal' engine
>> operation, i.e., cruise or 50-70% power. I had no idea that the M14R
>> 450 PS engine runs extremely rich even at this setting.
>>> Fuel consumption is about twice the consumption of a standard engine.
>>
>> Any idea why?
>>
>> My non-expert knowledge can only guess that pulling 450PS out of this
>> engine even at cruise power the internal cylinder pressures are still
>> so high (in relation to the initial design of 360hp) that the only way
>> to slow combustion down enough (hence lower ICPs) is to run very rich
>> mixture.
>>
>> Which leads to another point - and if I'm wrong above then I'm justing
>> getting even more wrong but hey, I'm learning stuff here - why not run
>> these engines very lean of peak. A much more cost effective way of
>> lowering ICP's and as practised on very high specific output western
>> radial engines like the R-3350 etc. It sounds as though the MSD would
>> be of great benefit to smooth and efficient LOP operation!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444157#444157
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 9
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|
| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. |
Thanks Mark! It confirms my guestimate that the Russians do make good
engines!
:-)
On 29/06/15 19:29, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
<owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>Jan,
>
>Thought you might find it interesting that the Lycoming GSO-480 runs 1219
>mmHg at take-off (48"). Continuing the conversation about fuel cooling
>the engine, this opposed 6 cylinder engine is "only" developing 340
>horsepower but at this take-off power setting is burning 52 gallons per
>hour, versus your 58 GPH with over 100 more horsepower, so in reality you
>are doing quite well!
>
>Mark
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
>Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 12:10 PM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops.
>starts.
>
>
>The 450 PS engines run very rich by design. At full power, the CHT and
>oil temp go to the red zone very fast.
>I replaced the standard oil cooler by an oil cooler from an MI 8
>helicopter (a lot bigger).
>Now oil temp is ok, all the time.
>But CHT can be problematic. When it's very hot outside, I simply don't
>fly.
>
>Another peculiar thing about the 450 PS engine: CHT has to be kept above
>170 degrees centigrades (when in the circuit).
>At lower temperature the plugs foul up rapidly.
>
>Fuel consumption of the M14R is about 130 liters/hour at 82/80 settings.
>At fully fine, full throttle, it is 220 liters/hour.
>
>The blower in the supercharger runs tremendously fast and has been
>constructed by Lyulka (now Saturn) the company that makes the engines for
>the Flanker etc.
>Intake pressure goes to 1150 mmHg.
>
>So, for a 25% increase in power, I have to feed the horses twice as much.
>But the reward is absolutely amazing. You get an incredible torque.
>
>
>Jan
>
>On 29/06/15 14:32, "JL2A" <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf
>of info@flyingwarbirds.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these engines, the CHT will
>>>head to the moon. So when you introduce a spark like an MSD produces...
>>>it is not just a spark, it is an extremely long duration event, which
>>>turns more of that fuel into energy, and the result is more power
>>>produced, but also less cooling, since more of that excess fuel is now
>>>turned into power. If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these
>>>engines, the CHT will head to the moon. So when you introduce a spark
>>>like an MSD produces... it is not just a spark, it is an extremely
>>>long duration event, which turns more of that fuel into energy, and
>>>the result is more power produced, but also less cooling, since more
>>>of that excess fuel is now turned into power.
>>
>>
>>Thanks Mark, very interesting. I had not considered a very rich mixture
>>and the effects spark on flame propagation. Your example of smooth cold
>>idling is interesting and am assuming it illustrates the benefits of
>>spark on very rich mixtures.
>>
>>In those comments I had assumed we were talking about 'normal' engine
>>operation, i.e., cruise or 50-70% power. I had no idea that the M14R
>>450 PS engine runs extremely rich even at this setting.
>>> Fuel consumption is about twice the consumption of a standard engine.
>>
>>
>>Any idea why?
>>
>>My non-expert knowledge can only guess that pulling 450PS out of this
>>engine even at cruise power the internal cylinder pressures are still
>>so high (in relation to the initial design of 360hp) that the only way
>>to slow combustion down enough (hence lower ICPs) is to run very rich
>>mixture.
>>
>>Which leads to another point - and if I'm wrong above then I'm justing
>>getting even more wrong but hey, I'm learning stuff here - why not run
>>these engines very lean of peak. A much more cost effective way of
>>lowering ICP's and as practised on very high specific output western
>>radial engines like the R-3350 etc. It sounds as though the MSD would
>>be of great benefit to smooth and efficient LOP operation!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444157#444157
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 10
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|
| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. |
Absolutely true, Dennis.
And there's still no alternative, although some try to make people believe
that they'll soon travel on solar energy, for free.
With the sun only delivering 1300 watts per square meter, I'm curious how
they'll ever get a 60 ton airliner in the air with free, solar energy.
Jan
On 29/06/15 19:46, "A. Dennis Savarese"
<owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of
dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
><dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
>
>That should remind us all that airplaneengines do not run on fuel. They
>run on money! :-)
>
>A. Dennis Savarese
>334-546-8182 (mobile)
>www.yak-52.com
>Skype - Yakguy1
>
>On 6/29/2015 12:29 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD wrote:
>> Jan,
>>
>> Thought you might find it interesting that the Lycoming GSO-480 runs
>>1219 mmHg at take-off (48"). Continuing the conversation about fuel
>>cooling the engine, this opposed 6 cylinder engine is "only" developing
>>340 horsepower but at this take-off power setting is burning 52 gallons
>>per hour, versus your 58 GPH with over 100 more horsepower, so in
>>reality you are doing quite well!
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
>> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 12:10 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts.
>>stops. starts.
>>
>>
>> The 450 PS engines run very rich by design. At full power, the CHT and
>>oil temp go to the red zone very fast.
>> I replaced the standard oil cooler by an oil cooler from an MI 8
>>helicopter (a lot bigger).
>> Now oil temp is ok, all the time.
>> But CHT can be problematic. When it's very hot outside, I simply don't
>>fly.
>>
>> Another peculiar thing about the 450 PS engine: CHT has to be kept above
>> 170 degrees centigrades (when in the circuit).
>> At lower temperature the plugs foul up rapidly.
>>
>> Fuel consumption of the M14R is about 130 liters/hour at 82/80 settings.
>> At fully fine, full throttle, it is 220 liters/hour.
>>
>> The blower in the supercharger runs tremendously fast and has been
>>constructed by Lyulka (now Saturn) the company that makes the engines
>>for the Flanker etc.
>> Intake pressure goes to 1150 mmHg.
>>
>> So, for a 25% increase in power, I have to feed the horses twice as
>>much.
>> But the reward is absolutely amazing. You get an incredible torque.
>>
>>
>> Jan
>>
>> On 29/06/15 14:32, "JL2A" <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on
>>behalf of info@flyingwarbirds.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these engines, the CHT will
>>>> head to the moon. So when you introduce a spark like an MSD
>>>>produces...
>>>> it is not just a spark, it is an extremely long duration event, which
>>>> turns more of that fuel into energy, and the result is more power
>>>> produced, but also less cooling, since more of that excess fuel is now
>>>> turned into power. If you tune for "perfect combustion" on these
>>>> engines, the CHT will head to the moon. So when you introduce a spark
>>>> like an MSD produces... it is not just a spark, it is an extremely
>>>> long duration event, which turns more of that fuel into energy, and
>>>> the result is more power produced, but also less cooling, since more
>>>> of that excess fuel is now turned into power.
>>>
>>> Thanks Mark, very interesting. I had not considered a very rich mixture
>>> and the effects spark on flame propagation. Your example of smooth cold
>>> idling is interesting and am assuming it illustrates the benefits of
>>> spark on very rich mixtures.
>>>
>>> In those comments I had assumed we were talking about 'normal' engine
>>> operation, i.e., cruise or 50-70% power. I had no idea that the M14R
>>> 450 PS engine runs extremely rich even at this setting.
>>>> Fuel consumption is about twice the consumption of a standard engine.
>>>
>>> Any idea why?
>>>
>>> My non-expert knowledge can only guess that pulling 450PS out of this
>>> engine even at cruise power the internal cylinder pressures are still
>>> so high (in relation to the initial design of 360hp) that the only way
>>> to slow combustion down enough (hence lower ICPs) is to run very rich
>>> mixture.
>>>
>>> Which leads to another point - and if I'm wrong above then I'm justing
>>> getting even more wrong but hey, I'm learning stuff here - why not run
>>> these engines very lean of peak. A much more cost effective way of
>>> lowering ICP's and as practised on very high specific output western
>>> radial engines like the R-3350 etc. It sounds as though the MSD would
>>> be of great benefit to smooth and efficient LOP operation!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444157#444157
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness, as in stops. starts. stops. starts. |
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