Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 09:30 AM - A List Contribution - It's Your Personal Squelch Button... (Matt Dralle)
1. 12:25 AM - G meter housing needed (picko)
2. 12:30 AM - Re: FOD Barrier (Hans Oortman)
3. 03:58 AM - Re: CJ-6 Questions (A. Dennis Savarese)
4. 04:00 AM - Re: FOD Barrier (A. Dennis Savarese)
5. 04:19 AM - Re: CJ-6 Questions (Stephen Jones)
6. 04:26 AM - Re: CJ-6 Questions (Hans Oortman)
7. 04:30 AM - Re: FOD Barrier (Hans Oortman)
8. 05:13 AM - Re: CJ-6 Questions (A. Dennis Savarese)
9. 05:52 AM - Re: CJ-6 Questions (migfighter42)
10. 06:58 AM - Re: CJ-6 Questions (Stephen Jones)
11. 07:18 AM - Re: CJ-6 Questions (A. Dennis Savarese)
12. 07:33 AM - Re: CJ-6 Questions (A. Dennis Savarese)
13. 09:51 AM - Re: CJ-6 Questions (Jeff Deuchar)
14. 10:09 AM - Re: CJ-6 Questions (A. Dennis Savarese)
15. 10:48 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: CJ-6 Questions (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
16. 11:16 AM - Re: CJ-6 Questions (jblake207@comcast.net)
17. 11:36 AM - Re: CJ-6 Questions (cjpilot710@aol.com)
18. 11:56 AM - Re: CJ-6 Questions (Dan Payne)
19. 12:40 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: CJ-6 Questions (Byron Fox)
20. 02:03 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: CJ-6 Questions (Stephen Jones)
21. 02:11 PM - Another CJ Question (Stephen Jones)
22. 02:22 PM - Re: Another CJ Question (Dan Payne)
23. 02:28 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: CJ-6 Questions (doug sapp)
24. 05:17 PM - Re: Another CJ Question (Stephen Jones)
Message 0
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| Subject: | A List Contribution - It's Your Personal Squelch Button... |
There is an automatic "squelch button" of sorts for the Fund Raiser messages.
Here's how it works... As soon as a List member makes a Contribution through
the Matronics Fund Raiser web site, their email address is automatically added
to this year's Contributor List and they instantly cease to receive further Fund
Raiser messages for the rest of the month! Its just that simple! :-)
I really do appreciate each and every one of your individual Contributions to support
the Lists. It is your support that enables me to upgrade the hardware
and software that are required to run a List Site such as this one. It also goes
to pay for the commercial-grade Internet connection and to pay the huge electric
bill to keep the computer gear running and the air conditioner powered
on. I run all of the Matronics Email List and Forums sites here locally which
allows me to control and monitor every aspect of the system for the utmost in
reliably and performance. Your personal Contribution matters because, when combined
with other Listers such as yourself, it pays the bills to keep this site
up and running. I accept exactly ZERO advertising dollars for the Matronics
Lists sites. I can't stand the pop-up ads and all other commercials that are
so prevalent on the Internet these days and I particularly don't want to have
it on my Email List sites.
If you appreciate the ad-free, grass-roots, down-home feel of the Matronics Email
Lists, please make a Contribution to keep it that way!!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or, you can send a personal check to the following address:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore, CA 94550
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[Note that there are certain circumstances where you might still see a Contribution
related message. For example, if someone replies to one of the messages,
when using the List Browse feature, or when accessing List message via the Forum.
The system keys on the given email address and since most of these are anonymous
public access methods, there is no simple way to filter them.]
Message 1
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| Subject: | G meter housing needed |
Hi all,
Am looking for the front cockpit housing piece for the g meter, system lights and
compass That sits on the instrument combing.
If ya got one and are happy to get it to Australia email me off list
Cheers
Alpick@live.com.au
Hooroo for now.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=449009#449009
Message 2
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Dennis Savarese, that's where I got it from!
Hans O.
PH-YAK
Op 09-11-15 02:19, HawkerPilot2015 <NiftyYak50@fuse.net> schreef:
>
> Who sells them?
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=449005#449005
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
Why are you putting the gear in neutral after you select UP?=C2- If it is
to "reduce the back pressure on the compressor", that simply is ludicrous.
=C2- The pneumatic system already has a device to "reduce the back pressu
re" and that is called the pop off valve or pressure relief valve.=C2- Wh
en you put the gear selector in NEUTRAL you completely depressurize the lan
ding gear actuators, thus requiring you to move the gear selector to the UP
position before you put the selector in the DOWN position.=C2- That in i
tself is a unnatural action.=C2- I don't think there is a single airplane
manufactured with retractable landing gear that requires two complete move
ments of the gear selector (first back to the UP position before going to t
he DOWN position).=C2- In the case of the CJ, if you do not put the gear
selector back in the UP position from NEUTRAL before you move it to the DOW
N position, the landing gear will slam down due to no back pressure on the
actuators.
If your airplane has uplocks, make sure they are properly functioning.=C2
-=C2- The uplocks are designed to lock the gear in the UP position unti
l the gear selector is moved to the DOWN position.=C2- The uplocks are un
locked by either placing the gear selector in the DOWN position or opening
the emergency air valve after you place the gear selector in NEUTRAL.
Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: Yak-list <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 6:47 PM
Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
Got our CJ flying after sitting a few years and have been flying the heck
out of it. A few issues have cropped up that maybe someone could shed some
light on.
First, I was flying this morning (kind of cool out, high 30's, low 40's) an
d when I selected gear up, got three red lights and selected neutral, the g
ear slowly fell back down. I tried up twice more and they came back down to
lock in neutral and I got them to stay up after selecting gear down then u
p. The gear operated normally through six or seven cycles the rest of the d
ay.A potential gear selector handle problem?
Secondly, after parking it, I put some catch pans beneath each exhaust and
behind the nose gear and=C2-open the intake manifold drain valve. I gener
ally don't get anything out of the manifold drain unless it's been sitting
a while. This time when I opened the drain, I got a splash of fuel leaking
out. It had been flying about 40 minutes with a normal lean run-up before s
hut-down.Is this normal?
Thanks in advance,Steve near Chicago
Message 4
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I haven't sold them for years and recommend to anyone wanting one to fabric
ate a Ceconite cover to fit the bulkhead and glue it to the bulkhead frame.
=C2- Works really well and very inexpensive.Dennis
From: Hans Oortman <pa3arw@ziggo.nl>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 3:27 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: FOD Barrier
Dennis Savarese, that's where I got it from!
Hans O.
PH-YAK
Op 09-11-15 02:19, HawkerPilot2015 <NiftyYak50@fuse.net> schreef:
>
> Who sells them?
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=449005#449005
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
S -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
The Yakkity-Yaks check-list that came with the airplane says to move the ge
ar handle to neutral after the gear is retracted and three red indicators a
re illuminated.The same=C2-as EVERY Boeing I've ever flown except for the
Stearman.
The airplane has uplocks. They worked as advertised until yesterday. It see
ms to me that if you're relying on air pressure to keep the gear up, (handl
e left in up), you wouldn't need uplocks.
Excuse my ignorance.
Steve near Chicago=C2-
On Monday, November 9, 2015 5:50 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812
@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Why are you putting the gear in neutral after you select UP?=C2- If it i
s to "reduce the back pressure on the compressor", that simply is ludicrous
.=C2- The pneumatic system already has a device to "reduce the back press
ure" and that is called the pop off valve or pressure relief valve.=C2- W
hen you put the gear selector in NEUTRAL you completely depressurize the la
nding gear actuators, thus requiring you to move the gear selector to the U
P position before you put the selector in the DOWN position.=C2- That in
itself is a unnatural action.=C2- I don't think there is a single airplan
e manufactured with retractable landing gear that requires two complete mov
ements of the gear selector (first back to the UP position before going to
the DOWN position).=C2- In the case of the CJ, if you do not put the gear
selector back in the UP position from NEUTRAL before you move it to the DO
WN position, the landing gear will slam down due to no back pressure on the
actuators.
If your airplane has uplocks, make sure they are properly functioning.=C2
-=C2- The uplocks are designed to lock the gear in the UP position unti
l the gear selector is moved to the DOWN position.=C2- The uplocks are un
locked by either placing the gear selector in the DOWN position or opening
the emergency air valve after you place the gear selector in NEUTRAL.
Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: Yak-list <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 6:47 PM
Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
Got our CJ flying after sitting a few years and have been flying the heck
out of it. A few issues have cropped up that maybe someone could shed some
light on.
First, I was flying this morning (kind of cool out, high 30's, low 40's) an
d when I selected gear up, got three red lights and selected neutral, the g
ear slowly fell back down. I tried up twice more and they came back down to
lock in neutral and I got them to stay up after selecting gear down then u
p. The gear operated normally through six or seven cycles the rest of the d
ay.A potential gear selector handle problem?
Secondly, after parking it, I put some catch pans beneath each exhaust and
behind the nose gear and=C2-open the intake manifold drain valve. I gener
ally don't get anything out of the manifold drain unless it's been sitting
a while. This time when I opened the drain, I got a splash of fuel leaking
out. It had been flying about 40 minutes with a normal lean run-up before s
hut-down.Is this normal?
Thanks in advance,Steve near Chicago
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
With all due respect Steve, you don=B9t know how the system works.....
Who told you to put the gear selector in neutral after the gear is up?
This doesn=B9t make sense at all. Leave it in up when flying and in down
position when landing/on the ground.
I=B9d suggest to read the manual again on this particular topic....
Again: with all respect.
Hans
Op 09-11-15 00:47, Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net> schreef:
> Got our CJ flying after sitting a few years and have been flying the he
ck
> out of it. A few issues have cropped up that maybe someone could shed som
e
> light on.
>
> First, I was flying this morning (kind of cool out, high 30's, low 40's)
and
> when I selected gear up, got three red lights and selected neutral, the g
ear
> slowly fell back down. I tried up twice more and they came back down to l
ock
> in neutral and I got them to stay up after selecting gear down then up. T
he
> gear operated normally through six or seven cycles the rest of the day.
> A potential gear selector handle problem?
>
> Secondly, after parking it, I put some catch pans beneath each exhaust an
d
> behind the nose gear and open the intake manifold drain valve. I generall
y
> don't get anything out of the manifold drain unless it's been sitting a w
hile.
> This time when I opened the drain, I got a splash of fuel leaking out. It
had
> been flying about 40 minutes with a normal lean run-up before shut-down.
> Is this normal?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Steve near Chicago
>
Message 7
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Hope all is well with you!
Oh, I=B9m sorry Dennis. Did know you were not selling them any more.
Your suggestion should work fine and its cheap.
I=B9ll be living again in Florida after december 11th....so far so
good...really like the Daytona area...
Need to find a Yak pilot though to fly with in Daytona during my next stay
there....
Fly safe.
Hans O.
PH-YAK
,
Op 09-11-15 12:53, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> schreef
:
> I haven't sold them for years and recommend to anyone wanting one to fabr
icate
> a Ceconite cover to fit the bulkhead and glue it to the bulkhead frame.
Works
> really well and very inexpensive.
> Dennis
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Hans Oortman <pa3arw@ziggo.nl>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 3:27 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: FOD Barrier
>
>
>
>
> Dennis Savarese, that's where I got it from!
>
> Hans O.
> PH-YAK
>
>
> Op 09-11-15 02:19, HawkerPilot2015 <NiftyYak50@fuse.net> schreef:
>
>
>> >
>> > Who sells them?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Read this topic online here:
>> >
>> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=449005#449005
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
> ========================http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=449005#449005> http://wbsp;
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
Ahhh.=C2- Now I understand where the procedure came from.
Question for you Stephen.=C2- In the Boeings you have flown, after you re
tract the gear and the 3 red indicators are illuminated and you move the ge
ar selector to neutral, is the procedure in the Boeing to move the gear sel
ector to the UP position before you move the gear selector to the DOWN posi
tion to extend the gear?Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
The Yakkity-Yaks check-list that came with the airplane says to move the ge
ar handle to neutral after the gear is retracted and three red indicators a
re illuminated.The same=C2-as EVERY Boeing I've ever flown except for the
Stearman.
The airplane has uplocks. They worked as advertised until yesterday. It see
ms to me that if you're relying on air pressure to keep the gear up, (handl
e left in up), you wouldn't need uplocks.
Excuse my ignorance.
Steve near Chicago=C2-
On Monday, November 9, 2015 5:50 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812
@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Why are you putting the gear in neutral after you select UP?=C2- If it i
s to "reduce the back pressure on the compressor", that simply is ludicrous
.=C2- The pneumatic system already has a device to "reduce the back press
ure" and that is called the pop off valve or pressure relief valve.=C2- W
hen you put the gear selector in NEUTRAL you completely depressurize the la
nding gear actuators, thus requiring you to move the gear selector to the U
P position before you put the selector in the DOWN position.=C2- That in
itself is a unnatural action.=C2- I don't think there is a single airplan
e manufactured with retractable landing gear that requires two complete mov
ements of the gear selector (first back to the UP position before going to
the DOWN position).=C2- In the case of the CJ, if you do not put the gear
selector back in the UP position from NEUTRAL before you move it to the DO
WN position, the landing gear will slam down due to no back pressure on the
actuators.
If your airplane has uplocks, make sure they are properly functioning.=C2
-=C2- The uplocks are designed to lock the gear in the UP position unti
l the gear selector is moved to the DOWN position.=C2- The uplocks are un
locked by either placing the gear selector in the DOWN position or opening
the emergency air valve after you place the gear selector in NEUTRAL.
Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: Yak-list <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 6:47 PM
Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
Got our CJ flying after sitting a few years and have been flying the heck
out of it. A few issues have cropped up that maybe someone could shed some
light on.
First, I was flying this morning (kind of cool out, high 30's, low 40's) an
d when I selected gear up, got three red lights and selected neutral, the g
ear slowly fell back down. I tried up twice more and they came back down to
lock in neutral and I got them to stay up after selecting gear down then u
p. The gear operated normally through six or seven cycles the rest of the d
ay.A potential gear selector handle problem?
Secondly, after parking it, I put some catch pans beneath each exhaust and
behind the nose gear and=C2-open the intake manifold drain valve. I gener
ally don't get anything out of the manifold drain unless it's been sitting
a while. This time when I opened the drain, I got a splash of fuel leaking
out. It had been flying about 40 minutes with a normal lean run-up before s
hut-down.Is this normal?
Thanks in advance,Steve near Chicago
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
No, Dennis, it doesn't under normal procedures.
When we bought the airplane=C2-from Fred Ehlenburg at Yakkity-Yaks in 199
7, that was the procedure his check pilots taught and is=C2-the procedure
=C2-in the checklist they distributed with the airplane. I can't recall w
hy, my assumption was to relieve the pressure on the actuators and I had se
en this done on Boeings, MiGs and some British airplanes. It does note to r
aise the handle to the up position before lowering the gear, which I though
t was unusual but I didn't have any time in Chinese equipment.
Rest assured that I didn't invent a procedure because I had seen it in some
thing else I flew.
Steve
On Monday, November 9, 2015 7:07 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812
@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Ahhh.=C2- Now I understand where the procedure came from.
Question for you Stephen.=C2- In the Boeings you have flown, after you re
tract the gear and the 3 red indicators are illuminated and you move the ge
ar selector to neutral, is the procedure in the Boeing to move the gear sel
ector to the UP position before you move the gear selector to the DOWN posi
tion to extend the gear?Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
The Yakkity-Yaks check-list that came with the airplane says to move the ge
ar handle to neutral after the gear is retracted and three red indicators a
re illuminated.The same=C2-as EVERY Boeing I've ever flown except for the
Stearman.
The airplane has uplocks. They worked as advertised until yesterday. It see
ms to me that if you're relying on air pressure to keep the gear up, (handl
e left in up), you wouldn't need uplocks.
Excuse my ignorance.
Steve near Chicago=C2-
On Monday, November 9, 2015 5:50 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812
@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Why are you putting the gear in neutral after you select UP?=C2- If it i
s to "reduce the back pressure on the compressor", that simply is ludicrous
.=C2- The pneumatic system already has a device to "reduce the back press
ure" and that is called the pop off valve or pressure relief valve.=C2- W
hen you put the gear selector in NEUTRAL you completely depressurize the la
nding gear actuators, thus requiring you to move the gear selector to the U
P position before you put the selector in the DOWN position.=C2- That in
itself is a unnatural action.=C2- I don't think there is a single airplan
e manufactured with retractable landing gear that requires two complete mov
ements of the gear selector (first back to the UP position before going to
the DOWN position).=C2- In the case of the CJ, if you do not put the gear
selector back in the UP position from NEUTRAL before you move it to the DO
WN position, the landing gear will slam down due to no back pressure on the
actuators.
If your airplane has uplocks, make sure they are properly functioning.=C2
-=C2- The uplocks are designed to lock the gear in the UP position unti
l the gear selector is moved to the DOWN position.=C2- The uplocks are un
locked by either placing the gear selector in the DOWN position or opening
the emergency air valve after you place the gear selector in NEUTRAL.
Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: Yak-list <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 6:47 PM
Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
Got our CJ flying after sitting a few years and have been flying the heck
out of it. A few issues have cropped up that maybe someone could shed some
light on.
First, I was flying this morning (kind of cool out, high 30's, low 40's) an
d when I selected gear up, got three red lights and selected neutral, the g
ear slowly fell back down. I tried up twice more and they came back down to
lock in neutral and I got them to stay up after selecting gear down then u
p. The gear operated normally through six or seven cycles the rest of the d
ay.A potential gear selector handle problem?
Secondly, after parking it, I put some catch pans beneath each exhaust and
behind the nose gear and=C2-open the intake manifold drain valve. I gener
ally don't get anything out of the manifold drain unless it's been sitting
a while. This time when I opened the drain, I got a splash of fuel leaking
out. It had been flying about 40 minutes with a normal lean run-up before s
hut-down.Is this normal?
Thanks in advance,Steve near Chicago
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
And therein is the key difference.=C2- Hydraulic versus pneumatic.=C2-
The compressor continues to run regardless of whether the gear selector is
UP, DOWN or in Neutral.=C2- Once the pressure in the air tanks reaches th
e preset pressure set by the pressure relief valve (pop off valve), approxi
mately 50 atmospheres, the pressure relief valve opens and dumps the excess
air overboard or until the pressure relief valve closes and begins to repr
essurize the system back to the preset pressure.
I believe the person who wrote the procedure was applying a hydraulic syste
m operational procedure to the pneumatic system.
On the CJ or Yak 52, if the gear selector is placed in the neutral position
after retracting the gear, if the actuators are not repressurized before p
utting the gear down by moving the gear selector back to the UP position, t
he gear will slam down and it can eventually cause damage to the actuators
because the back pressure in the actuators acts as a "shock absorber" when
the gear selector is moved from the UP position to the DOWN position.=C2-
ie:=C2- the pressure on the UP side is being forced out of the gear hand
le (that is the woosh sound you hear in the cockpit) by the air pressure be
ing applied to the DOWN position.=C2- Works the opposite way when you mov
e from the DOWN position to the UP position.
Dennis
From: migfighter42 <migfighter42@gmail.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
=C2-FYI
MiG-15/-17 procedure us to move gear and flap handles back to neutral after
use for all operations except landing. Leaving them up or down holds press
ure on the hydraulic rams and will overheat the hydraulic pump causing pump
failure if left too long. I have often wondered if the yaks have this feat
ure as a training aids for the MiGs.
BillRed Star Aero Services
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
-------- Original message --------From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812
@bellsouth.net> Date: 11/9/2015 7:07 AM (GMT-06:00) To: yak-list@matronics.
com Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
Ahhh.=C2- Now I understand where the procedure came from.
Question for you Stephen.=C2- In the Boeings you have flown, after you re
tract the gear and the 3 red indicators are illuminated and you move the ge
ar selector to neutral, is the procedure in the Boeing to move the gear sel
ector to the UP position before you move the gear selector to the DOWN posi
tion to extend the gear?Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
The Yakkity-Yaks check-list that came with the airplane says to move the ge
ar handle to neutral after the gear is retracted and three red indicators a
re illuminated.The same=C2-as EVERY Boeing I've ever flown except for the
Stearman.
The airplane has uplocks. They worked as advertised until yesterday. It see
ms to me that if you're relying on air pressure to keep the gear up, (handl
e left in up), you wouldn't need uplocks.
Excuse my ignorance.
Steve near Chicago=C2-
On Monday, November 9, 2015 5:50 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812
@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Why are you putting the gear in neutral after you select UP?=C2- If it i
s to "reduce the back pressure on the compressor", that simply is ludicrous
.=C2- The pneumatic system already has a device to "reduce the back press
ure" and that is called the pop off valve or pressure relief valve.=C2- W
hen you put the gear selector in NEUTRAL you completely depressurize the la
nding gear actuators, thus requiring you to move the gear selector to the U
P position before you put the selector in the DOWN position.=C2- That in
itself is a unnatural action.=C2- I don't think there is a single airplan
e manufactured with retractable landing gear that requires two complete mov
ements of the gear selector (first back to the UP position before going to
the DOWN position).=C2- In the case of the CJ, if you do not put the gear
selector back in the UP position from NEUTRAL before you move it to the DO
WN position, the landing gear will slam down due to no back pressure on the
actuators.
If your airplane has uplocks, make sure they are properly functioning.=C2
-=C2- The uplocks are designed to lock the gear in the UP position unti
l the gear selector is moved to the DOWN position.=C2- The uplocks are un
locked by either placing the gear selector in the DOWN position or opening
the emergency air valve after you place the gear selector in NEUTRAL.
Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: Yak-list <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 6:47 PM
Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
Got our CJ flying after sitting a few years and have been flying the heck
out of it. A few issues have cropped up that maybe someone could shed some
light on.
First, I was flying this morning (kind of cool out, high 30's, low 40's) an
d when I selected gear up, got three red lights and selected neutral, the g
ear slowly fell back down. I tried up twice more and they came back down to
lock in neutral and I got them to stay up after selecting gear down then u
p. The gear operated normally through six or seven cycles the rest of the d
ay.A potential gear selector handle problem?
Secondly, after parking it, I put some catch pans beneath each exhaust and
behind the nose gear and=C2-open the intake manifold drain valve. I gener
ally don't get anything out of the manifold drain unless it's been sitting
a while. This time when I opened the drain, I got a splash of fuel leaking
out. It had been flying about 40 minutes with a normal lean run-up before s
hut-down.Is this normal?
Thanks in advance,Steve near Chicago
Message 12
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| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
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|
| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
I know you didn't invent the procedure and you are correct, it is unusual t
o have to move the gear selector from the neutral to up position.
I tried to explain the pneumatic system=C2- a bit better in another post
a few minutes ago so as to help folks understand how that procedure was pos
sibly created and why it is flawed.=C2- Again as you or someone else said
, the reason for moving the gear selector to neutral on hydraulic system ai
rcraft is to shut the hydraulic pump down, which makes perfect sense.=C2-
But in the hydraulic system aircraft, one does not have to move the gear s
elector from neutral back to UP before moving the gear selector to the down
position because the actuators remain pressurized.=C2- On our pneumatic
system aircraft, once the gear selector is placed in neutral the actuators
are depressurized.=C2- The compressor, being physically attached to the e
ngine, always runs as long as the engine is running.
Hope this makes sense.Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
No, Dennis, it doesn't under normal procedures.
When we bought the airplane=C2-from Fred Ehlenburg at Yakkity-Yaks in 199
7, that was the procedure his check pilots taught and is=C2-the procedure
=C2-in the checklist they distributed with the airplane. I can't recall w
hy, my assumption was to relieve the pressure on the actuators and I had se
en this done on Boeings, MiGs and some British airplanes. It does note to r
aise the handle to the up position before lowering the gear, which I though
t was unusual but I didn't have any time in Chinese equipment.
Rest assured that I didn't invent a procedure because I had seen it in some
thing else I flew.
Steve
On Monday, November 9, 2015 7:07 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812
@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Ahhh.=C2- Now I understand where the procedure came from.
Question for you Stephen.=C2- In the Boeings you have flown, after you re
tract the gear and the 3 red indicators are illuminated and you move the ge
ar selector to neutral, is the procedure in the Boeing to move the gear sel
ector to the UP position before you move the gear selector to the DOWN posi
tion to extend the gear?Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
The Yakkity-Yaks check-list that came with the airplane says to move the ge
ar handle to neutral after the gear is retracted and three red indicators a
re illuminated.The same=C2-as EVERY Boeing I've ever flown except for the
Stearman.
The airplane has uplocks. They worked as advertised until yesterday. It see
ms to me that if you're relying on air pressure to keep the gear up, (handl
e left in up), you wouldn't need uplocks.
Excuse my ignorance.
Steve near Chicago=C2-
On Monday, November 9, 2015 5:50 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812
@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Why are you putting the gear in neutral after you select UP?=C2- If it i
s to "reduce the back pressure on the compressor", that simply is ludicrous
.=C2- The pneumatic system already has a device to "reduce the back press
ure" and that is called the pop off valve or pressure relief valve.=C2- W
hen you put the gear selector in NEUTRAL you completely depressurize the la
nding gear actuators, thus requiring you to move the gear selector to the U
P position before you put the selector in the DOWN position.=C2- That in
itself is a unnatural action.=C2- I don't think there is a single airplan
e manufactured with retractable landing gear that requires two complete mov
ements of the gear selector (first back to the UP position before going to
the DOWN position).=C2- In the case of the CJ, if you do not put the gear
selector back in the UP position from NEUTRAL before you move it to the DO
WN position, the landing gear will slam down due to no back pressure on the
actuators.
If your airplane has uplocks, make sure they are properly functioning.=C2
-=C2- The uplocks are designed to lock the gear in the UP position unti
l the gear selector is moved to the DOWN position.=C2- The uplocks are un
locked by either placing the gear selector in the DOWN position or opening
the emergency air valve after you place the gear selector in NEUTRAL.
Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: Yak-list <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 6:47 PM
Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
Got our CJ flying after sitting a few years and have been flying the heck
out of it. A few issues have cropped up that maybe someone could shed some
light on.
First, I was flying this morning (kind of cool out, high 30's, low 40's) an
d when I selected gear up, got three red lights and selected neutral, the g
ear slowly fell back down. I tried up twice more and they came back down to
lock in neutral and I got them to stay up after selecting gear down then u
p. The gear operated normally through six or seven cycles the rest of the d
ay.A potential gear selector handle problem?
Secondly, after parking it, I put some catch pans beneath each exhaust and
behind the nose gear and=C2-open the intake manifold drain valve. I gener
ally don't get anything out of the manifold drain unless it's been sitting
a while. This time when I opened the drain, I got a splash of fuel leaking
out. It had been flying about 40 minutes with a normal lean run-up before s
hut-down.Is this normal?
Thanks in advance,Steve near Chicago
Message 13
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| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
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|
| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
I find this a very interesting discussion.A friend of mine does this on his
CJ6 and was convincing me I should as well (place handle back to neutral a
fter gear up to ensure no pressure on the system).=C2- My placard on the
dash even reads "Gear down - Place handle up then down".=C2- This had me
convinced he was probably right.=C2- This after flying the CJ6 for 6 year
s where I just put the handle up when flying and down when landing.Personal
ly I think it is better that way as I do know of one CJ6 where the owner la
nded gear up and swears he put the handle down, but he never did, he just h
ad it in the neutral position.
So my question to the whole group is:=C2- Will it hurt the system at all
to have pressure on the UP side of the gear for a whole flight?=C2- If no
t I won't be doing it.
Jeff
On Monday, November 9, 2015 8:42 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812
@bellsouth.net> wrote:
I know you didn't invent the procedure and you are correct, it is unusual
to have to move the gear selector from the neutral to up position.
I tried to explain the pneumatic system=C2- a bit better in another post
a few minutes ago so as to help folks understand how that procedure was pos
sibly created and why it is flawed.=C2- Again as you or someone else said
, the reason for moving the gear selector to neutral on hydraulic system ai
rcraft is to shut the hydraulic pump down, which makes perfect sense.=C2-
But in the hydraulic system aircraft, one does not have to move the gear s
elector from neutral back to UP before moving the gear selector to the down
position because the actuators remain pressurized.=C2- On our pneumatic
system aircraft, once the gear selector is placed in neutral the actuators
are depressurized.=C2- The compressor, being physically attached to the e
ngine, always runs as long as the engine is running.
Hope this makes sense.Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
No, Dennis, it doesn't under normal procedures.
When we bought the airplane=C2-from Fred Ehlenburg at Yakkity-Yaks in 199
7, that was the procedure his check pilots taught and is=C2-the procedure
=C2-in the checklist they distributed with the airplane. I can't recall w
hy, my assumption was to relieve the pressure on the actuators and I had se
en this done on Boeings, MiGs and some British airplanes. It does note to r
aise the handle to the up position before lowering the gear, which I though
t was unusual but I didn't have any time in Chinese equipment.
Rest assured that I didn't invent a procedure because I had seen it in some
thing else I flew.
Steve
On Monday, November 9, 2015 7:07 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812
@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Ahhh.=C2- Now I understand where the procedure came from.
Question for you Stephen.=C2- In the Boeings you have flown, after you re
tract the gear and the 3 red indicators are illuminated and you move the ge
ar selector to neutral, is the procedure in the Boeing to move the gear sel
ector to the UP position before you move the gear selector to the DOWN posi
tion to extend the gear?Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
The Yakkity-Yaks check-list that came with the airplane says to move the ge
ar handle to neutral after the gear is retracted and three red indicators a
re illuminated.The same=C2-as EVERY Boeing I've ever flown except for the
Stearman.
The airplane has uplocks. They worked as advertised until yesterday. It see
ms to me that if you're relying on air pressure to keep the gear up, (handl
e left in up), you wouldn't need uplocks.
Excuse my ignorance.
Steve near Chicago=C2-
On Monday, November 9, 2015 5:50 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812
@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Why are you putting the gear in neutral after you select UP?=C2- If it i
s to "reduce the back pressure on the compressor", that simply is ludicrous
.=C2- The pneumatic system already has a device to "reduce the back press
ure" and that is called the pop off valve or pressure relief valve.=C2- W
hen you put the gear selector in NEUTRAL you completely depressurize the la
nding gear actuators, thus requiring you to move the gear selector to the U
P position before you put the selector in the DOWN position.=C2- That in
itself is a unnatural action.=C2- I don't think there is a single airplan
e manufactured with retractable landing gear that requires two complete mov
ements of the gear selector (first back to the UP position before going to
the DOWN position).=C2- In the case of the CJ, if you do not put the gear
selector back in the UP position from NEUTRAL before you move it to the DO
WN position, the landing gear will slam down due to no back pressure on the
actuators.
If your airplane has uplocks, make sure they are properly functioning.=C2
-=C2- The uplocks are designed to lock the gear in the UP position unti
l the gear selector is moved to the DOWN position.=C2- The uplocks are un
locked by either placing the gear selector in the DOWN position or opening
the emergency air valve after you place the gear selector in NEUTRAL.
Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: Yak-list <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 6:47 PM
Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
Got our CJ flying after sitting a few years and have been flying the heck
out of it. A few issues have cropped up that maybe someone could shed some
light on.
First, I was flying this morning (kind of cool out, high 30's, low 40's) an
d when I selected gear up, got three red lights and selected neutral, the g
ear slowly fell back down. I tried up twice more and they came back down to
lock in neutral and I got them to stay up after selecting gear down then u
p. The gear operated normally through six or seven cycles the rest of the d
ay.A potential gear selector handle problem?
Secondly, after parking it, I put some catch pans beneath each exhaust and
behind the nose gear and=C2-open the intake manifold drain valve. I gener
ally don't get anything out of the manifold drain unless it's been sitting
a while. This time when I opened the drain, I got a splash of fuel leaking
out. It had been flying about 40 minutes with a normal lean run-up before s
hut-down.Is this normal?
Thanks in advance,Steve near Chicago
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
Won't hurt the system one bit.
Dennis
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 9, 2015, at 12:46 PM, Jeff Deuchar <rocketerf1@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> I find this a very interesting discussion.
> A friend of mine does this on his CJ6 and was convincing me I should as we
ll (place handle back to neutral after gear up to ensure no pressure on the s
ystem). My placard on the dash even reads "Gear down - Place handle up then
down". This had me convinced he was probably right. This after flying the
CJ6 for 6 years where I just put the handle up when flying and down when la
nding.
> Personally I think it is better that way as I do know of one CJ6 where the
owner landed gear up and swears he put the handle down, but he never did, h
e just had it in the neutral position.
>
> So my question to the whole group is: Will it hurt the system at all to h
ave pressure on the UP side of the gear for a whole flight? If not I won't b
e doing it.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> On Monday, November 9, 2015 8:42 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bel
lsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> I know you didn't invent the procedure and you are correct, it is unusual t
o have to move the gear selector from the neutral to up position.
>
> I tried to explain the pneumatic system a bit better in another post a fe
w minutes ago so as to help folks understand how that procedure was possibly
created and why it is flawed. Again as you or someone else said, the reaso
n for moving the gear selector to neutral on hydraulic system aircraft is to
shut the hydraulic pump down, which makes perfect sense. But in the hydrau
lic system aircraft, one does not have to move the gear selector from neutra
l back to UP before moving the gear selector to the down position because th
e actuators remain pressurized. On our pneumatic system aircraft, once the g
ear selector is placed in neutral the actuators are depressurized. The comp
ressor, being physically attached to the engine, always runs as long as the e
ngine is running.
>
> Hope this makes sense.
> Dennis
>
> From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
> To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 9:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
>
> No, Dennis, it doesn't under normal procedures.
>
> When we bought the airplane from Fred Ehlenburg at Yakkity-Yaks in 1997, t
hat was the procedure his check pilots taught and is the procedure in the ch
ecklist they distributed with the airplane. I can't recall why, my assumptio
n was to relieve the pressure on the actuators and I had seen this done on B
oeings, MiGs and some British airplanes. It does note to raise the handle to
the up position before lowering the gear, which I thought was unusual but I
didn't have any time in Chinese equipment.
>
> Rest assured that I didn't invent a procedure because I had seen it in som
ething else I flew.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> On Monday, November 9, 2015 7:07 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bel
lsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> Ahhh. Now I understand where the procedure came from.
>
> Question for you Stephen. In the Boeings you have flown, after you retrac
t the gear and the 3 red indicators are illuminated and you move the gear se
lector to neutral, is the procedure in the Boeing to move the gear selector t
o the UP position before you move the gear selector to the DOWN position to e
xtend the gear?
> Dennis
>
> From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
> To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 7:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
>
> The Yakkity-Yaks check-list that came with the airplane says to move the g
ear handle to neutral after the gear is retracted and three red indicators a
re illuminated.
> The same as EVERY Boeing I've ever flown except for the Stearman.
>
> The airplane has uplocks. They worked as advertised until yesterday. It se
ems to me that if you're relying on air pressure to keep the gear up, (handl
e left in up), you wouldn't need uplocks.
>
> Excuse my ignorance.
>
> Steve near Chicago
>
>
>
> On Monday, November 9, 2015 5:50 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bel
lsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> Why are you putting the gear in neutral after you select UP? If it is to "
reduce the back pressure on the compressor", that simply is ludicrous. The p
neumatic system already has a device to "reduce the back pressure" and that i
s called the pop off valve or pressure relief valve. When you put the gear s
elector in NEUTRAL you completely depressurize the landing gear actuators, t
hus requiring you to move the gear selector to the UP position before you pu
t the selector in the DOWN position. That in itself is a unnatural action.
I don't think there is a single airplane manufactured with retractable land
ing gear that requires two complete movements of the gear selector (first ba
ck to the UP position before going to the DOWN position). In the case of th
e CJ, if you do not put the gear selector back in the UP position from NEUTR
AL before you move it to the DOWN position, the landing gear will slam down d
ue to no back pressure on the actuators.
>
> If your airplane has uplocks, make sure they are properly functioning. T
he uplocks are designed to lock the gear in the UP position until the gear s
elector is moved to the DOWN position. The uplocks are unlocked by either p
lacing the gear selector in the DOWN position or opening the emergency air v
alve after you place the gear selector in NEUTRAL.
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
> To: Yak-list <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 6:47 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
>
> Got our CJ flying after sitting a few years and have been flying the heck o
ut of it. A few issues have cropped up that maybe someone could shed some li
ght on.
>
> First, I was flying this morning (kind of cool out, high 30's, low 40's) a
nd when I selected gear up, got three red lights and selected neutral, the g
ear slowly fell back down. I tried up twice more and they came back down to l
ock in neutral and I got them to stay up after selecting gear down then up. T
he gear operated normally through six or seven cycles the rest of the day.
> A potential gear selector handle problem?
>
> Secondly, after parking it, I put some catch pans beneath each exhaust and
behind the nose gear and open the intake manifold drain valve. I generally d
on't get anything out of the manifold drain unless it's been sitting a while
. This time when I opened the drain, I got a splash of fuel leaking out. It h
ad been flying about 40 minutes with a normal lean run-up before shut-down.
> Is this normal?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Steve near Chicago
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
I've been watching this conversation closely, wondering if anyone will mention
the "rest of the story".
FYI, I fly the YAK-50 which has different gear actuators, but the rest of the pneumatic
system is the same. The question was "will it hurt anything to leave
the gear handle up during flight?" And Dennis answered that it would not.
I agree... but will go one step further.
Leaving the gear handle UP offers you (the pilot) more information on the condition
of your actuators and your pneumatic system in general, than it would if
you returned the handle to NEUTRAL.
Why? I'll get to that in a second.
There is one very VALID REASON for putting the gear handle in the middle or NEUTRAL.
Because it isolates the landing gear system from the rest of the aircrafts
pneumatic system. This can be very useful to know. Let's say that you have
a bad air leak in your pneumatic system, gear up *OR* gear down. This could
mean that you might land with little to no air pressure for brakes once you
lower the gear. Or it could be a bad leak with the gear UP, and again you are
not able to have enough air pressure for brakes, or to lower the flaps.
By putting the gear handle in the MIDDLE, you isolate the landing gear from the
rest of the pneumatic system and thus the leak as well. This allows your engine
driven compressor to pump the bottle all the way back to full (50 Atmos, or
735 PSI) and now just before you land (in a CJ or 52) you can put the handle
back to the DOWN position and still have a good chance of having enough air for
brakes.
On the YAK-50 once the gear are down and locked, air has nothing more to do with
keeping it down and locked, so you can actually lower the landing gear, put
the handle back to NEUTRAL, allow the air to pump back up and LAND that way!
Not recommended for anything except an emergency. This is not theory, I had
to do it once on a ferry flight to California.
Leaving the gear handle UP on the CJ, 52 or 50, allows the pilot to see HOW LONG
it takes for the AIR BOTTLE to re-pressurize. Or notice the fact that it is
not re-pressurizing at ALL! This tells you right away that you have a bad leak
someplace that needs to be addressed post-haste. If you put the gear handle
in the middle right after raising the gear, you do not get to check that little
tidbit of knowledge, and could thus easily fail to see a bad leak on the
UP side of the gear system. Not to mention the hazard that Dennis pointed out
of going directly to DOWN after the gear handle has sat in the middle for a
little while.
Another thing that makes this fact worthy of knowing is what happens if your gear
fails to extend properly. Before you go opening the EMERGENCY AIR VALVE, you
can put the gear handle in the middle, allowing the air to pump back up and
then lower the gear handle again to give the system another chance to work before
you open the emergency air bottle. When you open the emergency air bottle,
that can sometimes be a one shot deal. It either works, or you could end
up landing on partially extended gear, etc.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 1:07 PM
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
Won't hurt the system one bit.
Dennis
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 9, 2015, at 12:46 PM, Jeff Deuchar <rocketerf1@yahoo.ca> wrote:
I find this a very interesting discussion.
A friend of mine does this on his CJ6 and was convincing me I should as
well (place handle back to neutral after gear up to ensure no pressure on the
system). My placard on the dash even reads "Gear down - Place handle up then
down". This had me convinced he was probably right. This after flying the CJ6
for 6 years where I just put the handle up when flying and down when landing.
Personally I think it is better that way as I do know of one CJ6 where
the owner landed gear up and swears he put the handle down, but he never did,
he just had it in the neutral position.
So my question to the whole group is: Will it hurt the system at all to
have pressure on the UP side of the gear for a whole flight? If not I won't
be doing it.
Jeff
On Monday, November 9, 2015 8:42 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
I know you didn't invent the procedure and you are correct, it is unusual
to have to move the gear selector from the neutral to up position.
I tried to explain the pneumatic system a bit better in another post a
few minutes ago so as to help folks understand how that procedure was possibly
created and why it is flawed. Again as you or someone else said, the reason
for moving the gear selector to neutral on hydraulic system aircraft is to shut
the hydraulic pump down, which makes perfect sense. But in the hydraulic system
aircraft, one does not have to move the gear selector from neutral back
to UP before moving the gear selector to the down position because the actuators
remain pressurized. On our pneumatic system aircraft, once the gear selector
is placed in neutral the actuators are depressurized. The compressor, being
physically attached to the engine, always runs as long as the engine is running.
Hope this makes sense.
Dennis
________________________________
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
No, Dennis, it doesn't under normal procedures.
When we bought the airplane from Fred Ehlenburg at Yakkity-Yaks in 1997,
that was the procedure his check pilots taught and is the procedure in the checklist
they distributed with the airplane. I can't recall why, my assumption
was to relieve the pressure on the actuators and I had seen this done on Boeings,
MiGs and some British airplanes. It does note to raise the handle to the
up position before lowering the gear, which I thought was unusual but I didn't
have any time in Chinese equipment.
Rest assured that I didn't invent a procedure because I had seen it in
something else I flew.
Steve
On Monday, November 9, 2015 7:07 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Ahhh. Now I understand where the procedure came from.
Question for you Stephen. In the Boeings you have flown, after you retract
the gear and the 3 red indicators are illuminated and you move the gear selector
to neutral, is the procedure in the Boeing to move the gear selector to
the UP position before you move the gear selector to the DOWN position to extend
the gear?
Dennis
________________________________
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
The Yakkity-Yaks check-list that came with the airplane says to move the
gear handle to neutral after the gear is retracted and three red indicators
are illuminated.
The same as EVERY Boeing I've ever flown except for the Stearman.
The airplane has uplocks. They worked as advertised until yesterday. It
seems to me that if you're relying on air pressure to keep the gear up, (handle
left in up), you wouldn't need uplocks.
Excuse my ignorance.
Steve near Chicago
On Monday, November 9, 2015 5:50 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Why are you putting the gear in neutral after you select UP? If it is
to "reduce the back pressure on the compressor", that simply is ludicrous. The
pneumatic system already has a device to "reduce the back pressure" and that
is called the pop off valve or pressure relief valve. When you put the gear
selector in NEUTRAL you completely depressurize the landing gear actuators, thus
requiring you to move the gear selector to the UP position before you put the
selector in the DOWN position. That in itself is a unnatural action. I don't
think there is a single airplane manufactured with retractable landing gear
that requires two complete movements of the gear selector (first back to the
UP position before going to the DOWN position). In the case of the CJ, if you
do not put the gear selector back in the UP position from NEUTRAL before you
move it to the DOWN position, the landing gear will slam down due to no back
pressure on the actuators.
If your airplane has uplocks, make sure they are properly functioning.
The uplocks are designed to lock the gear in the UP position until the gear
selector is moved to the DOWN position. The uplocks are unlocked by either placing
the gear selector in the DOWN position or opening the emergency air valve
after you place the gear selector in NEUTRAL.
Dennis
________________________________
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
To: Yak-list <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 6:47 PM
Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
Got our CJ flying after sitting a few years and have been flying the heck
out of it. A few issues have cropped up that maybe someone could shed some
light on.
First, I was flying this morning (kind of cool out, high 30's, low 40's)
and when I selected gear up, got three red lights and selected neutral, the
gear slowly fell back down. I tried up twice more and they came back down to lock
in neutral and I got them to stay up after selecting gear down then up. The
gear operated normally through six or seven cycles the rest of the day.
A potential gear selector handle problem?
Secondly, after parking it, I put some catch pans beneath each exhaust
and behind the nose gear and open the intake manifold drain valve. I generally
don't get anything out of the manifold drain unless it's been sitting a while.
This time when I opened the drain, I got a splash of fuel leaking out. It had
been flying about 40 minutes with a normal lean run-up before shut-down.
Is this normal?
Thanks in advance,
Steve near Chicago
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
Jeff,
=C2-
When I first got my CJ, I was told to move the gear handle to the neutral p
osition to relieve backpressure.=C2- I thought about it a little and sinc
e the system already incorporates a relief valve I decided to NOT move it t
o the neutral position... Have been doing that for over 10 years now with Z
ERO issues.=C2- As Dennis alluded to in his message, the movement back to
the UP position is un-natural and is introducing a negative=C2-(or in my
opinion a WRONG)=C2-habit and will damage gear components if repeated ov
er time.=C2- My advice is to think of the gear handle with only 2 positio
ns...=C2-
=C2-
I'd be very interested and surprised to hear of anyone having issues due to
only using two positions.
=C2-
JB
=C2-
=C2-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Deuchar" <rocketerf1@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 11:46:04 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
I find this a very interesting discussion.
A friend of mine does this on his CJ6 and was convincing me I should as wel
l (place handle back to neutral after gear up to ensure no pressure on the
system).=C2- My placard on the dash even reads "Gear down - Place handle
up then down".=C2- This had me convinced he was probably right.=C2- Thi
s after flying the CJ6 for 6 years where I just put the handle up when flyi
ng and down when landing.
Personally I think it is better that way as I do know of one CJ6 where the
owner landed gear up and swears he put the handle down, but he never did, h
e just had it in the neutral position.
So my question to the whole group is:=C2- Will it hurt the system at all
to have pressure on the UP side of the gear for a whole flight?=C2- If no
t I won't be doing it.
Jeff
On Monday, November 9, 2015 8:42 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bell
south.net> wrote:
I know you didn't invent the procedure and you are correct, it is unusual t
o have to move the gear selector from the neutral to up position.
I tried to explain the pneumatic system=C2- a bit better in another post
a few minutes ago so as to help folks understand how that procedure was pos
sibly created and why it is flawed.=C2- Again as you or someone else said
, the reason for moving the gear selector to neutral on hydraulic system ai
rcraft is to shut the hydraulic pump down, which makes perfect sense.=C2-
But in the hydraulic system aircraft, one does not have to move the gear s
elector from neutral back to UP before moving the gear selector to the down
position because the actuators remain pressurized.=C2- On our pneumatic
system aircraft, once the gear selector is placed in neutral the actuators
are depressurized.=C2- The compressor, being physically attached to the e
ngine, always runs as long as the engine is running.
Hope this makes sense.
Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
No, Dennis, it doesn't under normal procedures.
When we bought the airplane=C2-from Fred Ehlenburg at Yakkity-Yaks in 199
7, that was the procedure his check pilots taught and is=C2-the procedure
=C2-in the checklist they distributed with the airplane. I can't recall w
hy, my assumption was to relieve the pressure on the actuators and I had se
en this done on Boeings, MiGs and some British airplanes. It does note to r
aise the handle to the up position before lowering the gear, which I though
t was unusual but I didn't have any time in Chinese equipment.
Rest assured that I didn't invent a procedure because I had seen it in some
thing else I flew.
Steve
On Monday, November 9, 2015 7:07 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bell
south.net> wrote:
Ahhh.=C2- Now I understand where the procedure came from.
Question for you Stephen.=C2- In the Boeings you have flown, after you re
tract the gear and the 3 red indicators are illuminated and you move the ge
ar selector to neutral, is the procedure in the Boeing to move the gear sel
ector to the UP position before you move the gear selector to the DOWN posi
tion to extend the gear?
Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
The Yakkity-Yaks check-list that came with the airplane says to move the ge
ar handle to neutral after the gear is retracted and three red indicators a
re illuminated.
The same=C2-as EVERY Boeing I've ever flown except for the Stearman.
The airplane has uplocks. They worked as advertised until yesterday. It see
ms to me that if you're relying on air pressure to keep the gear up, (handl
e left in up), you wouldn't need uplocks.
Excuse my ignorance.
Steve near Chicago=C2-
On Monday, November 9, 2015 5:50 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bell
south.net> wrote:
Why are you putting the gear in neutral after you select UP?=C2- If it is
to "reduce the back pressure on the compressor", that simply is ludicrous.
=C2- The pneumatic system already has a device to "reduce the back pressu
re" and that is called the pop off valve or pressure relief valve.=C2- Wh
en you put the gear selector in NEUTRAL you completely depressurize the lan
ding gear actuators, thus requiring you to move the gear selector to the UP
position before you put the selector in the DOWN position.=C2- That in i
tself is a unnatural action.=C2- I don't think there is a single airplane
manufactured with retractable landing gear that requires two complete move
ments of the gear selector (first back to the UP position before going to t
he DOWN position).=C2- In the case of the CJ, if you do not put the gear
selector back in the UP position from NEUTRAL before you move it to the DOW
N position, the landing gear will slam down due to no back pressure on the
actuators.
If your airplane has uplocks, make sure they are properly functioning.=C2
-=C2- The uplocks are designed to lock the gear in the UP position unti
l the gear selector is moved to the DOWN position.=C2- The uplocks are un
locked by either placing the gear selector in the DOWN position or opening
the emergency air valve after you place the gear selector in NEUTRAL.
Dennis
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 6:47 PM
Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
Got our CJ flying after sitting a few years and have been flying the heck o
ut of it. A few issues have cropped up that maybe someone could shed some l
ight on.
First, I was flying this morning (kind of cool out, high 30's, low 40's) an
d when I selected gear up, got three red lights and selected neutral, the g
ear slowly fell back down. I tried up twice more and they came back down to
lock in neutral and I got them to stay up after selecting gear down then u
p. The gear operated normally through six or seven cycles the rest of the d
ay.
A potential gear selector handle problem?
Secondly, after parking it, I put some catch pans beneath each exhaust and
behind the nose gear and=C2-open the intake manifold drain valve. I gener
ally don't get anything out of the manifold drain unless it's been sitting
a while. This time when I opened the drain, I got a splash of fuel leaking
out. It had been flying about 40 minutes with a normal lean run-up before s
hut-down.
Is this normal?
Thanks in advance,
Steve near Chicago
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
My airplane came from China without up locks. For 21 years now I've flown
without them. I look at it this way - 3 less failure points. The only
time the gear will fall without the up locks, 1. You have massive air leak in
the main system. and 2. The engine air compressor fails.
Yes all Boeing's had the gear handle moved to the neutral position AFTER
SELECTING UP, WITH GEAR UP AND LOCKED, but none required that it be moved to
the "up" position before going to the "down" position. This was done
because at point in abnormal gear situations, the gear handle was required to
be
moved to the neutral position and there was stop point in the handle
travel. If one left the gear handle "up" in a normal situation nothing is going
to happen to the system (same in the CJ with or without up locks). However
there is a real chance in a Boeing of pilot in a "normal" situation going
from the "up" position to "neutral" position, thinking he had moved to the
"down" position. I saw it happen a number of times in the early days at
PAA.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 11/9/2015 7:20:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
727gs@att.net writes:
The Yakkity-Yaks check-list that came with the airplane says to move the
gear handle to neutral after the gear is retracted and three red indicators
are illuminated.
The same as EVERY Boeing I've ever flown except for the Stearman.
The airplane has uplocks. They worked as advertised until yesterday. It
seems to me that if you're relying on air pressure to keep the gear up,
(handle left in up), you wouldn't need uplocks.
Excuse my ignorance.
Steve near Chicago
On Monday, November 9, 2015 5:50 AM, A. Dennis Savarese
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Why are you putting the gear in neutral after you select UP? If it is to
"reduce the back pressure on the compressor", that simply is ludicrous.
The pneumatic system already has a device to "reduce the back pressure" and
that is called the pop off valve or pressure relief valve. When you put the
gear selector in NEUTRAL you completely depressurize the landing gear
actuators, thus requiring you to move the gear selector to the UP position
before you put the selector in the DOWN position. That in itself is a
unnatural action. I don't think there is a single airplane manufactured with
retractable landing gear that requires two complete movements of the gear
selector (first back to the UP position before going to the DOWN position). In
the case of the CJ, if you do not put the gear selector back in the UP
position from NEUTRAL before you move it to the DOWN position, the landing gear
will slam down due to no back pressure on the actuators.
If your airplane has uplocks, make sure they are properly functioning.
The uplocks are designed to lock the gear in the UP position until the gear
selector is moved to the DOWN position. The uplocks are unlocked by either
placing the gear selector in the DOWN position or opening the emergency
air valve after you place the gear selector in NEUTRAL.
Dennis
____________________________________
From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 6:47 PM
Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
Got our CJ flying after sitting a few years and have been flying the heck
out of it. A few issues have cropped up that maybe someone could shed some
light on.
First, I was flying this morning (kind of cool out, high 30's, low 40's)
and when I selected gear up, got three red lights and selected neutral, the
gear slowly fell back down. I tried up twice more and they came back down to
lock in neutral and I got them to stay up after selecting gear down then
up. The gear operated normally through six or seven cycles the rest of the
day.
A potential gear selector handle problem?
Secondly, after parking it, I put some catch pans beneath each exhaust and
behind the nose gear and open the intake manifold drain valve. I generally
don't get anything out of the manifold drain unless it's been sitting a
while. This time when I opened the drain, I got a splash of fuel leaking out.
It had been flying about 40 minutes with a normal lean run-up before
shut-down.
Is this normal?
Thanks in advance,
Steve near Chicago
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
As per Dennis's prior post:
I picked up a Yak (52) out of KEVB.
The aircraft had been sitting for approx 8 months before I took off on the f
erry flight to Valdosta.
Made two touch and goes, on the last "gear up...no runway remaining" I retur
ned the gear handle to neutral. Flew 175nm and then put the gear selector to
down. Gear slammed down. Forward gear handle immediately starting hissing a
ir out. Never stopped till I returned it neutral on base...
The gear slamming down shook the airplane as well as blowing one of the nose
gear seals in the actuator.
The air bypassing through the gear handle (as well as the air guage indicati
ng a leak as it continually dwindled down) made me think it was a handle pro
blem...
I returned the handle to neutral, and the air gauge stopped falling.
Landed. Called Dennis. He told me an actuator seal was likely.
He was right.
The only time you should return it to neutral is when you have selected eith
er UP or DOWN and notice the air gauge continues to fall...otherwise expect a
BLOW down that will hurt the aircraft.
Again, listen to Dennis. He knows his shit.
Keep 'em Flyin!
> On Nov 9, 2015, at 2:13 PM, jblake207@comcast.net wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> When I first got my CJ, I was told to move the gear handle to the neutral p
osition to relieve backpressure. I thought about it a little and since the s
ystem already incorporates a relief valve I decided to NOT move it to the ne
utral position... Have been doing that for over 10 years now with ZERO issue
s. As Dennis alluded to in his message, the movement back to the UP positio
n is un-natural and is introducing a negative (or in my opinion a WRONG) hab
it and will damage gear components if repeated over time. My advice is to t
hink of the gear handle with only 2 positions...
>
> I'd be very interested and surprised to hear of anyone having issues due t
o only using two positions.
>
> JB
>
>
>
> From: "Jeff Deuchar" <rocketerf1@yahoo.ca>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 11:46:04 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
>
> I find this a very interesting discussion.
> A friend of mine does this on his CJ6 and was convincing me I should as we
ll (place handle back to neutral after gear up to ensure no pressure on the s
ystem). My placard on the dash even reads "Gear down - Place handle up then
down". This had me convinced he was probably right. This after flying the
CJ6 for 6 years where I just put the handle up when flying and down when la
nding.
> Personally I think it is better that way as I do know of one CJ6 where the
owner landed gear up and swears he put the handle down, but he never did, h
e just had it in the neutral position.
>
> So my question to the whole group is: Will it hurt the system at all to h
ave pressure on the UP side of the gear for a whole flight? If not I won't b
e doing it.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> On Monday, November 9, 2015 8:42 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bel
lsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> I know you didn't invent the procedure and you are correct, it is unusual t
o have to move the gear selector from the neutral to up position.
>
> I tried to explain the pneumatic system a bit better in another post a fe
w minutes ago so as to help folks understand how that procedure was possibly
created and why it is flawed. Again as you or someone else said, the reaso
n for moving the gear selector to neutral on hydraulic system aircraft is to
shut the hydraulic pump down, which makes perfect sense. But in the hydrau
lic system aircraft, one does not have to move the gear selector from neutra
l back to UP before moving the gear selector to the down position because th
e actuators remain pressurized. On our pneumatic system aircraft, once the g
ear selector is placed in neutral the actuators are depressurized. The comp
ressor, being physically attached to the engine, always runs as long as the e
ngine is running.
>
> Hope this makes sense.
> Dennis
>
> From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
> To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 9:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
>
> No, Dennis, it doesn't under normal procedures.
>
> When we bought the airplane from Fred Ehlenburg at Yakkity-Yaks in 1997, t
hat was the procedure his check pilots taught and is the procedure in the ch
ecklist they distributed with the airplane. I can't recall why, my assumptio
n was to relieve the pressure on the actuators and I had seen this done on B
oeings, MiGs and some British airplanes. It does note to raise the handle to
the up position before lowering the gear, which I thought was unusual but I
didn't have any time in Chinese equipment.
>
> Rest assured that I didn't invent a procedure because I had seen it in som
ething else I flew.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> On Monday, November 9, 2015 7:07 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bel
lsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> Ahhh. Now I understand where the procedure came from.
>
> Question for you Stephen. In the Boeings you have flown, after you retrac
t the gear and the 3 red indicators are illuminated and you move the gear se
lector to neutral, is the procedure in the Boeing to move the gear selector t
o the UP position before you move the gear selector to the DOWN position to e
xtend the gear?
> Dennis
>
> From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
> To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 7:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
>
> The Yakkity-Yaks check-list that came with the airplane says to move the g
ear handle to neutral after the gear is retracted and three red indicators a
re illuminated.
> The same as EVERY Boeing I've ever flown except for the Stearman.
>
> The airplane has uplocks. They worked as advertised until yesterday. It se
ems to me that if you're relying on air pressure to keep the gear up, (handl
e left in up), you wouldn't need uplocks.
>
> Excuse my ignorance.
>
> Steve near Chicago
>
>
>
> On Monday, November 9, 2015 5:50 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bel
lsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> Why are you putting the gear in neutral after you select UP? If it is to "
reduce the back pressure on the compressor", that simply is ludicrous. The p
neumatic system already has a device to "reduce the back pressure" and that i
s called the pop off valve or pressure relief valve. When you put the gear s
elector in NEUTRAL you completely depressurize the landing gear actuators, t
hus requiring you to move the gear selector to the UP position before you pu
t the selector in the DOWN position. That in itself is a unnatural action.
I don't think there is a single airplane manufactured with retractable land
ing gear that requires two complete movements of the gear selector (first ba
ck to the UP position before going to the DOWN position). In the case of th
e CJ, if you do not put the gear selector back in the UP position from NEUTR
AL before you move it to the DOWN position, the landing gear will slam down d
ue to no back pressure on the actuators.
>
> If your airplane has uplocks, make sure they are properly functioning. T
he uplocks are designed to lock the gear in the UP position until the gear s
elector is moved to the DOWN position. The uplocks are unlocked by either p
lacing the gear selector in the DOWN position or opening the emergency air v
alve after you place the gear selector in NEUTRAL.
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
> To: Yak-list <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 6:47 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
>
> Got our CJ flying after sitting a few years and have been flying the heck o
ut of it. A few issues have cropped up that maybe someone could shed some li
ght on.
>
> First, I was flying this morning (kind of cool out, high 30's, low 40's) a
nd when I selected gear up, got three red lights and selected neutral, the g
ear slowly fell back down. I tried up twice more and they came back down to l
ock in neutral and I got them to stay up after selecting gear down then up. T
he gear operated normally through six or seven cycles the rest of the day.
> A potential gear selector handle problem?
>
> Secondly, after parking it, I put some catch pans beneath each exhaust and
behind the nose gear and open the intake manifold drain valve. I generally d
on't get anything out of the manifold drain unless it's been sitting a while
. This time when I opened the drain, I got a splash of fuel leaking out. It h
ad been flying about 40 minutes with a normal lean run-up before shut-down.
> Is this normal?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Steve near Chicago
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
Further to Mark's comments. It would appear, therefore, that by noting the
time it takes the compressor to recharge the storage tank with the gear
left in the up position *versus* the time it takes to recharge with the
gear hand in the neutral would be useful in determining the likelihood of a
leak in the gear-up air lines. All this assumes the CJ in question has
up-locks installed. Do I misunderstand? Thanks.
On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 10:45 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> I've been watching this conversation closely, wondering if anyone will
> mention the "rest of the story".
>
> FYI, I fly the YAK-50 which has different gear actuators, but the rest of
> the pneumatic system is the same. The question was "will it hurt anything
> to leave the gear handle up during flight?" And Dennis answered that it
> would not. I agree... but will go one step further.
>
> Leaving the gear handle UP offers you (the pilot) more information on the
> condition of your actuators and your pneumatic system in general, than it
> would if you returned the handle to NEUTRAL.
>
> Why? I'll get to that in a second.
>
> There is one very VALID REASON for putting the gear handle in the middle
> or NEUTRAL. Because it isolates the landing gear system from the rest of
> the aircrafts pneumatic system. This can be very useful to know. Let's
> say that you have a bad air leak in your pneumatic system, gear up *OR*
> gear down. This could mean that you might land with little to no air
> pressure for brakes once you lower the gear. Or it could be a bad leak
> with the gear UP, and again you are not able to have enough air pressure
> for brakes, or to lower the flaps.
>
> By putting the gear handle in the MIDDLE, you isolate the landing gear
> from the rest of the pneumatic system and thus the leak as well. This
> allows your engine driven compressor to pump the bottle all the way back to
> full (50 Atmos, or 735 PSI) and now just before you land (in a CJ or 52)
> you can put the handle back to the DOWN position and still have a good
> chance of having enough air for brakes.
>
> On the YAK-50 once the gear are down and locked, air has nothing more to
> do with keeping it down and locked, so you can actually lower the landing
> gear, put the handle back to NEUTRAL, allow the air to pump back up and
> LAND that way! Not recommended for anything except an emergency. This
> is not theory, I had to do it once on a ferry flight to California.
>
> Leaving the gear handle UP on the CJ, 52 or 50, allows the pilot to see
> HOW LONG it takes for the AIR BOTTLE to re-pressurize. Or notice the fact
> that it is not re-pressurizing at ALL! This tells you right away that you
> have a bad leak someplace that needs to be addressed post-haste. If you
> put the gear handle in the middle right after raising the gear, you do not
> get to check that little tidbit of knowledge, and could thus easily fail to
> see a bad leak on the UP side of the gear system. Not to mention the
> hazard that Dennis pointed out of going directly to DOWN after the gear
> handle has sat in the middle for a little while.
>
> Another thing that makes this fact worthy of knowing is what happens if
> your gear fails to extend properly. Before you go opening the EMERGENCY
> AIR VALVE, you can put the gear handle in the middle, allowing the air to
> pump back up and then lower the gear handle again to give the system
> another chance to work before you open the emergency air bottle. When you
> open the emergency air bottle, that can sometimes be a one shot deal. It
> either works, or you could end up landing on partially extended gear, etc.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 1:07 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
>
> Won't hurt the system one bit.
> Dennis
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Nov 9, 2015, at 12:46 PM, Jeff Deuchar <rocketerf1@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
> I find this a very interesting discussion.
> A friend of mine does this on his CJ6 and was convincing me I
> should as well (place handle back to neutral after gear up to ensure no
> pressure on the system). My placard on the dash even reads "Gear down -
> Place handle up then down". This had me convinced he was probably right.
> This after flying the CJ6 for 6 years where I just put the handle up when
> flying and down when landing.
> Personally I think it is better that way as I do know of one CJ6
> where the owner landed gear up and swears he put the handle down, but he
> never did, he just had it in the neutral position.
>
>
> So my question to the whole group is: Will it hurt the system at
> all to have pressure on the UP side of the gear for a whole flight? If not
> I won't be doing it.
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
> On Monday, November 9, 2015 8:42 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> I know you didn't invent the procedure and you are correct, it is
> unusual to have to move the gear selector from the neutral to up position.
>
> I tried to explain the pneumatic system a bit better in another
> post a few minutes ago so as to help folks understand how that procedure
> was possibly created and why it is flawed. Again as you or someone else
> said, the reason for moving the gear selector to neutral on hydraulic
> system aircraft is to shut the hydraulic pump down, which makes perfect
> sense. But in the hydraulic system aircraft, one does not have to move the
> gear selector from neutral back to UP before moving the gear selector to
> the down position because the actuators remain pressurized. On our
> pneumatic system aircraft, once the gear selector is placed in neutral the
> actuators are depressurized. The compressor, being physically attached to
> the engine, always runs as long as the engine is running.
>
> Hope this makes sense.
> Dennis
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
> To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 9:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
>
>
> No, Dennis, it doesn't under normal procedures.
>
>
> When we bought the airplane from Fred Ehlenburg at Yakkity-Yaks in
> 1997, that was the procedure his check pilots taught and is the procedure
> in the checklist they distributed with the airplane. I can't recall why, my
> assumption was to relieve the pressure on the actuators and I had seen this
> done on Boeings, MiGs and some British airplanes. It does note to raise the
> handle to the up position before lowering the gear, which I thought was
> unusual but I didn't have any time in Chinese equipment.
>
>
> Rest assured that I didn't invent a procedure because I had seen
> it in something else I flew.
>
>
> Steve
>
>
> On Monday, November 9, 2015 7:07 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> Ahhh. Now I understand where the procedure came from.
>
> Question for you Stephen. In the Boeings you have flown, after
> you retract the gear and the 3 red indicators are illuminated and you move
> the gear selector to neutral, is the procedure in the Boeing to move the
> gear selector to the UP position before you move the gear selector to the
> DOWN position to extend the gear?
> Dennis
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
> To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 7:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
>
>
> The Yakkity-Yaks check-list that came with the airplane says to
> move the gear handle to neutral after the gear is retracted and three red
> indicators are illuminated.
> The same as EVERY Boeing I've ever flown except for the Stearman.
>
>
> The airplane has uplocks. They worked as advertised until
> yesterday. It seems to me that if you're relying on air pressure to keep
> the gear up, (handle left in up), you wouldn't need uplocks.
>
>
> Excuse my ignorance.
>
>
> Steve near Chicago
>
>
> On Monday, November 9, 2015 5:50 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> Why are you putting the gear in neutral after you select UP? If
> it is to "reduce the back pressure on the compressor", that simply is
> ludicrous. The pneumatic system already has a device to "reduce the back
> pressure" and that is called the pop off valve or pressure relief valve.
> When you put the gear selector in NEUTRAL you completely depressurize the
> landing gear actuators, thus requiring you to move the gear selector to the
> UP position before you put the selector in the DOWN position. That in
> itself is a unnatural action. I don't think there is a single airplane
> manufactured with retractable landing gear that requires two complete
> movements of the gear selector (first back to the UP position before going
> to the DOWN position). In the case of the CJ, if you do not put the gear
> selector back in the UP position from NEUTRAL before you move it to the
> DOWN position, the landing gear will slam down due to no back pressure on
> the actuators.
>
> If your airplane has uplocks, make sure they are properly
> functioning. The uplocks are designed to lock the gear in the UP position
> until the gear selector is moved to the DOWN position. The uplocks are
> unlocked by either placing the gear selector in the DOWN position or
> opening the emergency air valve after you place the gear selector in
> NEUTRAL.
>
> Dennis
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
> To: Yak-list <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 6:47 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
>
>
> Got our CJ flying after sitting a few years and have been flying
> the heck out of it. A few issues have cropped up that maybe someone could
> shed some light on.
>
> First, I was flying this morning (kind of cool out, high 30's, low
> 40's) and when I selected gear up, got three red lights and selected
> neutral, the gear slowly fell back down. I tried up twice more and they
> came back down to lock in neutral and I got them to stay up after selecting
> gear down then up. The gear operated normally through six or seven cycles
> the rest of the day.
> A potential gear selector handle problem?
>
> Secondly, after parking it, I put some catch pans beneath each
> exhaust and behind the nose gear and open the intake manifold drain valve.
> I generally don't get anything out of the manifold drain unless it's been
> sitting a while. This time when I opened the drain, I got a splash of fuel
> leaking out. It had been flying about 40 minutes with a normal lean run-up
> before shut-down.
> Is this normal?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Steve near Chicago
>
>
--
... Blitz
Byron M. Fox
80 Milland Drive
Mill Valley, CA 94941
415-307-2405
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
I will take this under advisement and appreciate the input. =0A=0ANow back
to the original question. Do I have an issue with the unlocks? They held th
e gear up before.=0A=0AAny input on the fuel draining from the intake manif
old drain?=0A=0ASteve near Chicago
Message 21
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| Subject: | Another CJ Question |
The last couple of times I started it, the prop would occasionally kick backwards
during the start. Today I noticed a rough idle after start the went away above
about 1500 rpm which I attributed to a fouled plug. After the next start it
idled smoothly but after the last, it idled roughly again, despite leaning on
the ground.
Magnetos?
Thanks in advance,
Steve near Chicago
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Another CJ Question |
How bout the primer being left to the full left (manual fuel pump selection)
Or perhaps an internal (primer / wobble pump) leak? Would explain the fuel l
eaking out of the manifold drain upon shutdown and your excessive rich condi
tion fouling the plug...
PS - if you fouled a plug, that would not make the engine run faster.
> On Nov 9, 2015, at 5:08 PM, Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net> wrote:
>
>
> The last couple of times I started it, the prop would occasionally kick ba
ckwards during the start. Today I noticed a rough idle after start the went a
way above about 1500 rpm which I attributed to a fouled plug. After the next
start it idled smoothly but after the last, it idled roughly again, despite
leaning on the ground.
>
> Magnetos?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Steve near Chicago
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: CJ-6 Questions |
Stephen,
What is your procedure for shut down?
Doug
On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net> wrote:
> I will take this under advisement and appreciate the input.
>
> Now back to the original question. Do I have an issue with the unlocks?
> They held the gear up before.
>
> Any input on the fuel draining from the intake manifold drain?
>
> Steve near Chicago
>
> ------------------------------
> * From: * Byron Fox <byronmfox@gmail.com>;
> * To: * Yak LIst <yak-list@matronics.com>;
> * Subject: * Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
> * Sent: * Mon, Nov 9, 2015 8:37:22 PM
>
> Further to Mark's comments. It would appear, therefore, that by noting the
> time it takes the compressor to recharge the storage tank with the gear
> left in the up position *versus* the time it takes to recharge with the
> gear hand in the neutral would be useful in determining the likelihood of a
> leak in the gear-up air lines. All this assumes the CJ in question has
> up-locks installed. Do I misunderstand? Thanks.
>
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 10:45 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> I've been watching this conversation closely, wondering if anyone will
>> mention the "rest of the story".
>>
>> FYI, I fly the YAK-50 which has different gear actuators, but the rest of
>> the pneumatic system is the same. The question was "will it hurt anything
>> to leave the gear handle up during flight?" And Dennis answered that it
>> would not. I agree... but will go one step further.
>>
>> Leaving the gear handle UP offers you (the pilot) more information on
>> the condition of your actuators and your pneumatic system in general, than
>> it would if you returned the handle to NEUTRAL.
>>
>> Why? I'll get to that in a second.
>>
>> There is one very VALID REASON for putting the gear handle in the middle
>> or NEUTRAL. Because it isolates the landing gear system from the rest of
>> the aircrafts pneumatic system. This can be very useful to know. Let's
>> say that you have a bad air leak in your pneumatic system, gear up *OR*
>> gear down. This could mean that you might land with little to no air
>> pressure for brakes once you lower the gear. Or it could be a bad leak
>> with the gear UP, and again you are not able to have enough air pressure
>> for brakes, or to lower the flaps.
>>
>> By putting the gear handle in the MIDDLE, you isolate the landing gear
>> from the rest of the pneumatic system and thus the leak as well. This
>> allows your engine driven compressor to pump the bottle all the way back to
>> full (50 Atmos, or 735 PSI) and now just before you land (in a CJ or 52)
>> you can put the handle back to the DOWN position and still have a good
>> chance of having enough air for brakes.
>>
>> On the YAK-50 once the gear are down and locked, air has nothing more to
>> do with keeping it down and locked, so you can actually lower the landing
>> gear, put the handle back to NEUTRAL, allow the air to pump back up and
>> LAND that way! Not recommended for anything except an emergency. This
>> is not theory, I had to do it once on a ferry flight to California.
>>
>> Leaving the gear handle UP on the CJ, 52 or 50, allows the pilot to see
>> HOW LONG it takes for the AIR BOTTLE to re-pressurize. Or notice the fact
>> that it is not re-pressurizing at ALL! This tells you right away that you
>> have a bad leak someplace that needs to be addressed post-haste. If you
>> put the gear handle in the middle right after raising the gear, you do not
>> get to check that little tidbit of knowledge, and could thus easily fail to
>> see a bad leak on the UP side of the gear system. Not to mention the
>> hazard that Dennis pointed out of going directly to DOWN after the gear
>> handle has sat in the middle for a little while.
>>
>> Another thing that makes this fact worthy of knowing is what happens if
>> your gear fails to extend properly. Before you go opening the EMERGENCY
>> AIR VALVE, you can put the gear handle in the middle, allowing the air to
>> pump back up and then lower the gear handle again to give the system
>> another chance to work before you open the emergency air bottle. When you
>> open the emergency air bottle, that can sometimes be a one shot deal. It
>> either works, or you could end up landing on partially extended gear, etc.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
>> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 1:07 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
>>
>> Won't hurt the system one bit.
>> Dennis
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Nov 9, 2015, at 12:46 PM, Jeff Deuchar <rocketerf1@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I find this a very interesting discussion.
>> A friend of mine does this on his CJ6 and was convincing me I
>> should as well (place handle back to neutral after gear up to ensure no
>> pressure on the system). My placard on the dash even reads "Gear down -
>> Place handle up then down". This had me convinced he was probably right.
>> This after flying the CJ6 for 6 years where I just put the handle up when
>> flying and down when landing.
>> Personally I think it is better that way as I do know of one CJ6
>> where the owner landed gear up and swears he put the handle down, but he
>> never did, he just had it in the neutral position.
>>
>>
>> So my question to the whole group is: Will it hurt the system at
>> all to have pressure on the UP side of the gear for a whole flight? If not
>> I won't be doing it.
>>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, November 9, 2015 8:42 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
>> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I know you didn't invent the procedure and you are correct, it is
>> unusual to have to move the gear selector from the neutral to up position.
>>
>> I tried to explain the pneumatic system a bit better in another
>> post a few minutes ago so as to help folks understand how that procedure
>> was possibly created and why it is flawed. Again as you or someone else
>> said, the reason for moving the gear selector to neutral on hydraulic
>> system aircraft is to shut the hydraulic pump down, which makes perfect
>> sense. But in the hydraulic system aircraft, one does not have to move the
>> gear selector from neutral back to UP before moving the gear selector to
>> the down position because the actuators remain pressurized. On our
>> pneumatic system aircraft, once the gear selector is placed in neutral the
>> actuators are depressurized. The compressor, being physically attached to
>> the engine, always runs as long as the engine is running.
>>
>> Hope this makes sense.
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
>> To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 9:54 AM
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
>>
>>
>> No, Dennis, it doesn't under normal procedures.
>>
>>
>> When we bought the airplane from Fred Ehlenburg at Yakkity-Yaks
>> in 1997, that was the procedure his check pilots taught and is the
>> procedure in the checklist they distributed with the airplane. I can't
>> recall why, my assumption was to relieve the pressure on the actuators and
>> I had seen this done on Boeings, MiGs and some British airplanes. It does
>> note to raise the handle to the up position before lowering the gear, which
>> I thought was unusual but I didn't have any time in Chinese equipment.
>>
>>
>> Rest assured that I didn't invent a procedure because I had seen
>> it in something else I flew.
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, November 9, 2015 7:07 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
>> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Ahhh. Now I understand where the procedure came from.
>>
>> Question for you Stephen. In the Boeings you have flown, after
>> you retract the gear and the 3 red indicators are illuminated and you move
>> the gear selector to neutral, is the procedure in the Boeing to move the
>> gear selector to the UP position before you move the gear selector to the
>> DOWN position to extend the gear?
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
>> To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 7:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
>>
>>
>> The Yakkity-Yaks check-list that came with the airplane says to
>> move the gear handle to neutral after the gear is retracted and three red
>> indicators are illuminated.
>> The same as EVERY Boeing I've ever flown except for the Stearman.
>>
>>
>> The airplane has uplocks. They worked as advertised until
>> yesterday. It seems to me that if you're relying on air pressure to keep
>> the gear up, (handle left in up), you wouldn't need uplocks.
>>
>>
>> Excuse my ignorance.
>>
>>
>> Steve near Chicago
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, November 9, 2015 5:50 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
>> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Why are you putting the gear in neutral after you select UP? If
>> it is to "reduce the back pressure on the compressor", that simply is
>> ludicrous. The pneumatic system already has a device to "reduce the back
>> pressure" and that is called the pop off valve or pressure relief valve.
>> When you put the gear selector in NEUTRAL you completely depressurize the
>> landing gear actuators, thus requiring you to move the gear selector to the
>> UP position before you put the selector in the DOWN position. That in
>> itself is a unnatural action. I don't think there is a single airplane
>> manufactured with retractable landing gear that requires two complete
>> movements of the gear selector (first back to the UP position before going
>> to the DOWN position). In the case of the CJ, if you do not put the gear
>> selector back in the UP position from NEUTRAL before you move it to the
>> DOWN position, the landing gear will slam down due to no back pressure on
>> the actuators.
>>
>> If your airplane has uplocks, make sure they are properly
>> functioning. The uplocks are designed to lock the gear in the UP position
>> until the gear selector is moved to the DOWN position. The uplocks are
>> unlocked by either placing the gear selector in the DOWN position or
>> opening the emergency air valve after you place the gear selector in
>> NEUTRAL.
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Stephen Jones <727gs@att.net>
>> To: Yak-list <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2015 6:47 PM
>> Subject: Yak-List: CJ-6 Questions
>>
>>
>> Got our CJ flying after sitting a few years and have been flying
>> the heck out of it. A few issues have cropped up that maybe someone could
>> shed some light on.
>>
>> First, I was flying this morning (kind of cool out, high 30's,
>> low 40's) and when I selected gear up, got three red lights and selected
>> neutral, the gear slowly fell back down. I tried up twice more and they
>> came back down to lock in neutral and I got them to stay up after selecting
>> gear down then up. The gear operated normally through six or seven cycles
>> the rest of the day.
>> A potential gear selector handle problem?
>>
>> Secondly, after parking it, I put some catch pans beneath each
>> exhaust and behind the nose gear and open the intake manifold drain valve.
>> I generally don't get anything out of the manifold drain unless it's been
>> sitting a while. This time when I opened the drain, I got a splash of fuel
>> leaking out. It had been flying about 40 minutes with a normal lean run-up
>> before shut-down.
>> Is this normal?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Steve near Chicago
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==============
>> br> fts!)
>> r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> www.buildersbooks.com
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ==========
>> List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ... Blitz
>
> Byron M. Fox
> 80 Milland Drive
> Mill Valley, CA 94941
> 415-307-2405
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Another CJ Question |
The checklist I use has me run the engine to 1900 RPM for 10-15 seconds as
lean as it will run, pull back the throttle and mixture to low idle and shu
t down the mags. =0A=0ASteve near Chicago
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