---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 04/10/16: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:12 AM - Re: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? (A. Dennis Savarese) 2. 10:58 AM - Re: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? (Walter Lannon) 3. 12:03 PM - Re: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? (Walter Lannon) 4. 01:44 PM - Re: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? (A. Dennis Savarese) 5. 01:51 PM - Re: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? (A. Dennis Savarese) 6. 02:04 PM - Re: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? (John Nolan) 7. 05:49 PM - Carry spare air CO2...ever leave your valve on? (Lee Haven) 8. 06:35 PM - Re: Carry spare air CO2...ever leave your valve on? (Ernest Martinez) 9. 07:41 PM - Re: Carry spare air CO2...ever leave your valve on? (Cory Robin) 10. 08:44 PM - Re: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? (Walter Lannon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:07 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? This one works well and I have used it for several years.=C2- You may fin d it at other retailers.=C2- 14mm thread. http://www.amazon.com/Innovative-Products-America-7880-Indicator/dp/B002XMO MA2 Dennis From: John B To: Yak-List Digest Server Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 1:37 AM Subject: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? The TDC tool is missing from my tool kit.=C2- Has anyone had any luck wit h an automotive type? =C2-John BPhoenix ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:58:10 AM PST US From: "Walter Lannon" Subject: Re: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? Hi Dennis; Out of curiosity I checked the website you provided. It sure enough is a TDC indicating tool but could not work on any aircraft engine. Check the user comments. Wrong website? Best; Walt From: A. Dennis Savarese Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 5:11 AM Subject: Re: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? This one works well and I have used it for several years. You may find it at other retailers. 14mm thread. http://www.amazon.com/Innovative-Products-America-7880-Indicator/dp/B002X MOMA2 Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From: John B Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 1:37 AM Subject: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? The TDC tool is missing from my tool kit. Has anyone had any luck with an automotive type? John B Phoenix ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:03:36 PM PST US From: "Walter Lannon" Subject: Re: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? There is no tool other than the original, or a similar design with the same features, that satisfies the TDC requirement for ignition timing of these engines. There actually is such a tool, still currently manufactured in the US, that could easily do this part of the timing process. That is the Time-Rite, been around forever and is complete with adaptors used to time virtually every Western manufactured aircraft engine. However it has never been adapted to the Ivchenko series engines. It could be readily adapted for the TDC finding task but still could not be used for timing of any Eastern magneto other than the M9F. Reason for which I could go into at another time. I believe it is available from ATS, probably around $1500.00 USD. The timing process for these engines requires a reasonably precise knowledge of when, in terms of crankshaft rotation, the piston is at TDC. The piston however, sits at the top of stroke for approx. 8 degrees of crankshaft rotation. We need to know the center of that =9Cdwell=9D accurately. The proper tool provides that. Suggest you contact Doug Sapp, I expect he has them in stock. Walt Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2016 10:37 PM Subject: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? The TDC tool is missing from my tool kit. Has anyone had any luck with an automotive type? John B Phoenix ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Yes that's true Walt. But I know it works on M14's and HS6's. I would imagine the manufacturer never intended it to be used on an aircraft radial engine. What I was looking for when I found this several years ago was a TDC tool for 14mm threads. Also o ne with a "ball" on the sliding component because of the plug thread angle t o the top of the piston. When I bought this one I knew it might not work. I figured I could always return if it didn't work. I've had it ever since. Best regards, Dennis Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 10, 2016, at 1:56 PM, Walter Lannon wrote: > > Hi Dennis; > > Out of curiosity I checked the website you provided. It sure enough is a TDC indicating tool but could not work on any aircraft engine. Check the u ser comments. > Wrong website? > > Best; > Walt > > From: A. Dennis Savarese > Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 5:11 AM > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? > > This one works well and I have used it for several years. You may find it at other retailers. 14mm thread. > > http://www.amazon.com/Innovative-Products-America-7880-Indicator/dp/B002XM OMA2 > > Dennis > > > From: John B > To: Yak-List Digest Server > Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 1:37 AM > Subject: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? > > The TDC tool is missing from my tool kit. Has anyone had any luck with an automotive type? > John B > Phoenix > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:51:48 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? From: "A. Dennis Savarese" I have also used a digital timing indicator placed on the prop dome or spinn er and threaded stop plug. http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?PRODUCT_ID=RSK-DX Also purchased the 14mm and 18mm stop plug at the bottom of the page. Dennis Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 10, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Walter Lannon wrote: > > There is no tool other than the original, or a similar design with the sam e features, that satisfies the TDC requirement for ignition timing of these e ngines. > > There actually is such a tool, still currently manufactured in the US, tha t could easily do this part of the timing process. That is the Time-Rite, b een around forever and is complete with adaptors used to time virtually ever y Western manufactured aircraft engine. > However it has never been adapted to the Ivchenko series engines. It cou ld be readily adapted for the TDC finding task but still could not be used f or timing of any Eastern magneto other than the M9F. Reason for which I cou ld go into at another time. I believe it is available from ATS, probably a round $1500.00 USD. > > The timing process for these engines requires a reasonably precise knowled ge of when, in terms of crankshaft rotation, the piston is at TDC. The pis ton however, sits at the top of stroke for approx. 8 degrees of crankshaft r otation. We need to know the center of that =9Cdwell=9D accura tely. The proper tool provides that. > > Suggest you contact Doug Sapp, I expect he has them in stock. > > Walt > > > Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2016 10:37 PM > To: Yak-List Digest Server > Subject: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? > > The TDC tool is missing from my tool kit. Has anyone had any luck with an automotive type? > John B > Phoenix ========================== ========================== ========================== ========================== ========================== ========================== ==================== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:04:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? From: John Nolan Dennis and I used this TDC tool to time my engine. It works well. Regards, John Nolan On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 2:51 PM, A. Dennis Savarese < dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote: > I have also used a digital timing indicator placed on the prop dome or > spinner and threaded stop plug. > http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?PRODUCT_ID=RSK-DX > > Also purchased the 14mm and 18mm stop plug at the bottom of the page. > Dennis > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 10, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Walter Lannon wrote: > > There is no tool other than the original, or a similar design with the > same features, that satisfies the TDC requirement for ignition timing of > these engines. > > There actually is such a tool, still currently manufactured in the US, > that could easily do this part of the timing process. That is the > Time-Rite, been around forever and is complete with adaptors used to time > virtually every Western manufactured aircraft engine. > However it has never been adapted to the Ivchenko series engines. It > could be readily adapted for the TDC finding task but still could not be > used for timing of any Eastern magneto other than the M9F. Reason for > which I could go into at another time. I believe it is available from > ATS, probably around $1500.00 USD. > > The timing process for these engines requires a reasonably precise > knowledge of when, in terms of crankshaft rotation, the piston is at TDC. > The piston however, sits at the top of stroke for approx. 8 degrees of > crankshaft rotation. We need to know the center of that =9Cdwell =9D > accurately. The proper tool provides that. > > Suggest you contact Doug Sapp, I expect he has them in stock. > > Walt > > > *Sent:* Saturday, April 09, 2016 10:37 PM > *To:* Yak-List Digest Server > *Subject:* Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? > > The TDC tool is missing from my tool kit. Has anyone had any luck with a n > automotive type? > John B > Phoenix > ======================== =========== >www.buildersbooks.com > matronics.com/contribution =============== ==================== // > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List ============ ====================== > cs.com ====================== ============= matronics.com/contribution > ======================== > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:20 PM PST US From: Lee Haven Subject: Yak-List: Carry spare air CO2...ever leave your valve on? DQoNCkhhcyBhbnlvbmUgZXZlciB1c2VkIGEgTElRVUlEIENPMiB0YW5rIGFzIGEgc3BhcmUgYWly IHNvdXJjZT8gIFRoZXkgYXJlIGNvbW1vbiBmb3IgcGFpbnRiYWxsIG9yIGJlZXIga2VncywgbGln aHR3ZWlnaHQgY2FyYm9uIGZpYmVyLCBjYXJyeSBhIERPVCByYXRpbmcsIGFuZCBXQVkgbW9yZSBk ZW5zZSB0aGFuIGNhcnJ5aW5nIGNvbXByZXNzZWQgZ2FzIGluIGEgcG9ueSBib3R0bGUuICBUaGlz IG1lYW5zIHlvdSBjYW4gY2FycnkgYSB0aW55IHRoZXJtb3MgYm90dGxlIHNpemUgdGFuayBhbmQg Z2V0IGEgRlVMTCByZWNoYXJnZSBvbiB5b3VyIG1haW4uDQoNCkNPMiB0cmFuc2l0aW9ucyBsaXF1 aWQgdG8gdmFwb3IgcGhhc2UgYXQgNzUwIHBzaSAoNTAgYmFyLCBwZXJmZWN0KS4NCjEgcG91bmQg b2YgQ08yIGlzIDguNSBjdWJpYyBmZWV0IG9mIGdhcyBhdCBTVFAuDQpUaGUgbWFpbiB0YW5rIGlz IGFib3V0IDEgY3ViaWMgZm9vdCAoY2hhcmdlIHRvIDc1MCBwc2ksIDUwIGJhci9jdWJpYyBmZWV0 IGFyZSBuZWVkZWQgaWYgZGVhZCBmbGF0KS4NCkZvciByZWZlcmVuY2UsIGEgU0NVQkEgdGFuayBp cyA4MCBjdWJpYyBmZWV0IGNvbXByZXNzZWQgKDMwMDAgcHNpKS4NCg0KVGhlcmVmb3JlLCBhIHRp bnkgdGhlcm1vcyBzaXplZCB0YW5rIGF0IDIwIG91bmNlcyB3b3VsZCBjaGFyZ2UgdGhlIG1haW4g dG8gNzUgcGVyY2VudCBmcm9tIGhhbGYgZGVhZC4NCg0KQ2FycnlpbmcgYSAyLjUgcG91bmQgdGFu ayAoYWJvdXQgc2FtZSBhcyBhIE1JTkkgcG9ueSBib3R0bGUpIHdvdWxkIGJlIGEgZnVsbCBtYWlu IGFpciByZWNoYXJnZSAoYW5kIHVuZGVyIDUgcG91bmRzIGFuZCA0IlgxNSIuLi50aW55KQ0KDQpJ IGhhdmUgZG9uZSBtYW55IDEwMCBwZXJjZW50IG5pdHJvZ2VuIHJlZmlsbCBzdGFydHMgc28gSSBr bm93IGluZXJ0IGdhcyBzdGFydHMgKHN1Y2ggYXMgQ08yKSB3b3JrLg0KDQpRdWVzdGlvbiBpcy4u LmkgYW0gY3VyaW91cyB0byBrbm93IGlmIGFueW9uZSBlbHNlIGhhcyB0cmllZD8gIEkgd291bGQg bG92ZSB0byBjYXJyeSBhIHNtYWxsLCBsdW5jaGJveCBzaXplIHRhbmsgdG8gZ2V0IGEgc2Vjb25k IGNoYW5jZSBhdCBzdGFydHVwLi4ubm9ib2R5IGV2ZXIgbGVhdmVzIHRoZWlyIHZhbHZlIG9wZW4g cmlnaHQ/DQoNCkxlZSBIYXZlbg0KR3JlZW4gYmF5IGZvcm1hdGlvbiBGSUdIVCBjbHViDQo ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: Carry spare air CO2...ever leave your valve on? From: Ernest Martinez Firstly I'm not sure what you mean by "CO2 transitions to vapor at 750 PSI". Solid CO2 will sublimate directly to gas at room temp. Compressing gaseous CO2 will cause it to transition to a liquid. It will transition immediately to a gas once the pressure drops. I'm not quite sure that releasing liquid CO2 from a tank into the air lines would make it turn into a gas unless there was some space at the top of the bottle and it was standing upright. So you would be dumping liquid CO2 into the cylinder where it would violently expand. Even if it did arrive at the cylinder as an expanding gas, it would be at several hundred degrees below zero and I'm not sure what effect that would have on the piston, rings, and the cylinder itself. I would think that the rapid cooling would cause the cylinder to contract and seize the piston in place. Then theres all the water that would immediately condense in the cylinder. Lastly, only SOME planes are able to start on nitrogen, SOME can't, probably has to do with air distributor timing. I don't think a frozen, water laden cylinder would fare very well. Ernie On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 8:48 PM, Lee Haven wrote: > > > Has anyone ever used a LIQUID CO2 tank as a spare air source? They are > common for paintball or beer kegs, lightweight carbon fiber, carry a DOT > rating, and WAY more dense than carrying compressed gas in a pony bottle. > This means you can carry a tiny thermos bottle size tank and get a FULL > recharge on your main. > > CO2 transitions liquid to vapor phase at 750 psi (50 bar, perfect). > 1 pound of CO2 is 8.5 cubic feet of gas at STP. > The main tank is about 1 cubic foot (charge to 750 psi, 50 bar/cubic feet > are needed if dead flat). > For reference, a SCUBA tank is 80 cubic feet compressed (3000 psi). > > Therefore, a tiny thermos sized tank at 20 ounces would charge the main to > 75 percent from half dead. > > Carrying a 2.5 pound tank (about same as a MINI pony bottle) would be a > full main air recharge (and under 5 pounds and 4"X15"...tiny) > > I have done many 100 percent nitrogen refill starts so I know inert gas > starts (such as CO2) work. > > Question is...i am curious to know if anyone else has tried? I would love > to carry a small, lunchbox size tank to get a second chance at > startup...nobody ever leaves their valve open right? > > Lee Haven > Green bay formation FIGHT club > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:44 PM PST US From: Cory Robin Subject: Re: Yak-List: Carry spare air CO2...ever leave your valve on? I love my little compressor... http://shoeboxcompressor.com/ We don't need the higher compressions, but this thing will fill your tank in a couple minutes. (or a spare scuba tank without having to pay for refills) Cory. On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Ernest Martinez wrote: > Firstly I'm not sure what you mean by "CO2 transitions to vapor at 750 > PSI". Solid CO2 will sublimate directly to gas at room temp. Compressing > gaseous CO2 will cause it to transition to a liquid. It will transition > immediately to a gas once the pressure drops. > > I'm not quite sure that releasing liquid CO2 from a tank into the air > lines would make it turn into a gas unless there was some space at the top > of the bottle and it was standing upright. So you would be dumping liquid > CO2 into the cylinder where it would violently expand. Even if it did > arrive at the cylinder as an expanding gas, it would be at several hundred > degrees below zero and I'm not sure what effect that would have on the > piston, rings, and the cylinder itself. I would think that the rapid > cooling would cause the cylinder to contract and seize the piston in place. > Then theres all the water that would immediately condense in the cylinder. > > Lastly, only SOME planes are able to start on nitrogen, SOME can't, > probably has to do with air distributor timing. I don't think a frozen, > water laden cylinder would fare very well. > > Ernie > > > On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 8:48 PM, Lee Haven > wrote: > >> >> >> Has anyone ever used a LIQUID CO2 tank as a spare air source? They are >> common for paintball or beer kegs, lightweight carbon fiber, carry a DOT >> rating, and WAY more dense than carrying compressed gas in a pony bottle. >> This means you can carry a tiny thermos bottle size tank and get a FULL >> recharge on your main. >> >> CO2 transitions liquid to vapor phase at 750 psi (50 bar, perfect). >> 1 pound of CO2 is 8.5 cubic feet of gas at STP. >> The main tank is about 1 cubic foot (charge to 750 psi, 50 bar/cubic feet >> are needed if dead flat). >> For reference, a SCUBA tank is 80 cubic feet compressed (3000 psi). >> >> Therefore, a tiny thermos sized tank at 20 ounces would charge the main >> to 75 percent from half dead. >> >> Carrying a 2.5 pound tank (about same as a MINI pony bottle) would be a >> full main air recharge (and under 5 pounds and 4"X15"...tiny) >> >> I have done many 100 percent nitrogen refill starts so I know inert gas >> starts (such as CO2) work. >> >> Question is...i am curious to know if anyone else has tried? I would >> love to carry a small, lunchbox size tank to get a second chance at >> startup...nobody ever leaves their valve open right? >> >> Lee Haven >> Green bay formation FIGHT club >> > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:14 PM PST US From: "Walter Lannon" Subject: Re: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? Hi Dennis; I guess the angle then is not acute enough to cause bending. But it is designed for a centrally located spark plug hole at 90 deg. from the piston surface. Cheers Walt From: A. Dennis Savarese Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 1:44 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? Yes that's true Walt. But I know it works on M14's and HS6's. I would imagine the manufacturer never intended it to be used on an aircraft radial engine. What I was looking for when I found this several years ago was a TDC tool for 14mm threads. Also one with a "ball" on the sliding component because of the plug thread angle to the top of the piston. When I bought this one I knew it might not work. I figured I could always return if it didn't work. I've had it ever since. Best regards, Dennis Sent from my iPhone On Apr 10, 2016, at 1:56 PM, Walter Lannon wrote: Hi Dennis; Out of curiosity I checked the website you provided. It sure enough is a TDC indicating tool but could not work on any aircraft engine. Check the user comments. Wrong website? Best; Walt From: A. Dennis Savarese Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 5:11 AM To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? This one works well and I have used it for several years. You may find it at other retailers. 14mm thread. http://www.amazon.com/Innovative-Products-America-7880-Indicator/dp/B002X MOMA2 Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: John B To: Yak-List Digest Server Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 1:37 AM Subject: Yak-List: What are folks using for a Top-Dead-Center finder? The TDC tool is missing from my tool kit. Has anyone had any luck with an automotive type? John B Phoenix ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.