Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:53 AM - Re: Yak52 600 hour maintenance schedule (Richard Goode)
2. 05:03 AM - '91 Yak 52 (A. Dennis Savarese)
3. 06:00 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues (Rico Jaeger)
4. 09:50 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues (John Nolan)
5. 10:35 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
6. 02:14 PM - Re:1988 CJ-6A for sale (Craig Payne)
7. 02:37 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues (Bill Geipel)
8. 06:43 PM - [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues (Looigi)
9. 07:45 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re:1988 CJ-6A for sale (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
10. 07:46 PM - [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues (Sam Sax)
11. 07:56 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
12. 08:02 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues (Bill Geipel)
13. 08:06 PM - Re: Auto wiring issues (Frank Stelwagon)
14. 08:28 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
15. 09:42 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
16. 10:24 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues (Bill Geipel)
17. 10:49 PM - Re: Re: Auto wiring issues (Jan Mevis)
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| Subject: | Yak52 600 hour maintenance schedule |
This is a somewhat complex issue, and to explain:
*In Russian DOSAAF use, the 52 was flown extremely hard; sat at one airfield
doing aerobatics all day. In consequence, and also because they were working
in a military-style environment, the 52 had a "life" of 600 hours flying. At
the end of this it would be returned to one of three major factories where
it would be completely disassembled and then built up as a new aircraft.
*In Europe we, sadly, do not have the freedoms that the "experimental"
category gives Americans to fly these sorts of aircraft. We had been using a
Russian registration of dubious legality, but some 12 years ago, the
European aviation authorities realise this and said that these registrations
were not legal and could not be used in Europe.
*In different countries the 52 is able to fly, but the simple fact is that
it is not a certificated aircraft, and therefore each country is able to
adopt its own rules and decisions as to whether they want the aircraft to
fly in their airspace. Indeed, the 52 cannot be registered in a number of
European countries.
*Fortunately, within the UK, where we had, and still have, quite a lot of
52, we have a curious part of aviation law, whereby our CAA must give
airworthiness documentation to any aircraft that is "ex-military", unless
they are particular safety reasons to refuse for example in the case of
supersonic jet aircraft.
*Initially UK CAA said that, under this legislation, that we could continue
to fly 52 in the UK, but that it would be subject to all the original
maintenance programs, including this "total overhaul" every 600 hours. We
protested saying that, even in Russia, this regulation was considered
unnecessary and far too tough, and, certainly not needed in typical Western
use.
*This led to meetings between ourselves; Yakovlev in Moscow and the
involvement of UK CAA in which our aim was to have a more lenient, but still
totally safe maintenance regime. We had endless discussions and drafts of
documentation, but it was finally agreed that the Russian "total overhauls"
were an over-kill in Western Europe, and in its place it was agreed that we
would have a very detailed inspection every 600 hours or 15 years of flying.
*This involves the removal of the wings; engine; tail et cetera, but only by
a few feet so that x-rays can be made of all critical points and mountings.
Then there is a detailed list of other specific checks. In round terms this
will cost about 5000 ($7500) on top of a normal annual, but of course not
that frequent. Importantly, we removed from Yakovlev the "responsibility"
for the continuing airworthiness of these aircraft, which meant that we had
to get onto our team a very well reputed structural aircraft designer,
should significant structural issues emerge in the future.
*Because we had invested a lot of money and time into this project, we
thought it reasonable that the lifetime extensions should only be performed
in certain approved facilities and that we should charge a royalty for each
aircraft whose lifetime had been extended. In the UK this is controlled
through Russian engineering at White Waltham airfield.
*I emphasise that this is a procedure only for UK registered Yak 52, and it
has no significance for aircraft not registered within the UK.
I hope that helps to understand the position, but if anyone wants further
information, please contact me off list.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fishface68
Sent: 27 April 2016 22:03
Subject: Yak-List: Yak52 600 hour maintenance schedule
--> <patrick.chriswick@gmail.com>
Hi all does anyone out there have a 600 hour maintenance schedule for the
yak 52? This is the schedule for the airframe re life at 600 hours, 3500
landings or 16 years whichever comes first.
Many thanks!
Regards Pat
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455564#455564
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If anyone is interested ina '91 Yak 52, airworthiness certificate in
'97, with only 406 hours total time, airframe, engine and prop, for a
"give-away" price, please contact me off-listfor further details.
Dennis
--
/-- //
/
//A. Dennis Savarese //
//334-546-8182 (mobile)//
//www.yak-52.com //
//Skype - Yakguy1//
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| Subject: | Re: Auto wiring issues |
I installed Dennis' ignition wire kit 4 years ago and have zero problems w/ radio
noise. In fact, one of the biggest compliments I get regarding my 52 is the
quality operation of the original radio and intercom. Not fun to dial up freq's
during busy moments in the cockpit - but rock solid dependability.
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
Hangar #35 / AUW
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
Hangar #21 / AUW
________________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
on behalf of Jan Mevis <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:33:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
Spot on, Mark!
About 10 years ago, I replaced the original Russian wiring harness with
the solution from Dennis.
I immediately had a much smoother running engine.
Two to three percent drops in stead of >5 what I always had, even with
brand-new very expensive Russian plugs.
But also more noise on my Russian radios.
So I changed the radio. I installed a Becker.
No noise problems at all.
Jan
On 27/04/16 21:36, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
<owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>First. I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13
>years on one set of spark plugs. Let me take that back. I did park a
>car once and it sat 10 years, and then I junked it. It never had a plug
>change in 10 years either. But plugs do wear out, like anything else.
>13 years is pretty much an amazing statement.
>
>My point is, that if you fly any Russian Radial what is considered a
>normal amount of hours each year, you are not going to get 13 years out
>of one set of plugs. Not on ANY spark plug on ANY engine! If the gent
>that said that wants to insist on it being accurate, so be it. But that
>would also imply that anyone who does NOT get 13 years out of their plugs
>must be doing something wrong. I change my NGK plugs EVERY YEAR! I do
>not wait for things to go bad in airplanes. I try to fix them before
>they get to the point where they are totally inoperative, or I am stuck
>somewhere with an engine that won't start, because that has happened to
>me, and I did not enjoy it.
>
>Which brings us to the statement: "If it ain't broke don't fix it".
>Well yes, to a certain degree, but ..... If my engine appears to be
>running good, should I not do a compression check during the Conditional?
> If my engine is running fine, should I never change the oil and run it
>for 13 years as well? No. And the writer was NOT implying that, but I
>had to mention it. But realize that if you run on the original wires
>and plugs a normal number of hours per year, they are going to fail, and
>hopefully when you are not far from home. Hopefully it will be a slight
>miss, and not a totally dead cylinder, or a dead TWO cylinders.
>
>I have a lot of experience with plug wires on M-14 engines. A LOT. I
>could go into the engineering design differences between solid wires with
>rubber insulation that have to be sealed in a metal tube to work (Faraday
>Shield) without tearing up electronics in every direction, compared to
>those used in every automobile engine made in modern times. Guess which
>ones work better? I put silicone racing wires in my M-14 as soon as they
>came out, right after I helped a friend do the same change on a Sukhoi
>SU-26 that belonged to a world renowned aerobatic pilot. I then observed
>better idling, easier starting, along with MASSIVELY CHEAPER spark plug
>changes. Anyone have the going price of a brand new Russian plug? How
>about 18 of them? Anyone ever read the articles on Chinese versus
>Russian plugs? (Which by the way are also unverified). Are people here
>aware of what can happen if you drop a Russian plug and then install it?
>
>
>Factually there is more RF noise escaping from modern plug wires than
>there is from ANY plug wire that is totally enclosed in a Faraday Shield,
>which is the original Russian design, because that is the technology that
>they had, and that is the technology that they used. But what also goes
>along with that fact is how susceptible the radio itself is to RF noise.
>In that regard, not all radios are created equal, just like not all spark
>plug wires are.
>
>Look at it this way. If you refuse to take immunizations, and you lead
>a healthy life for years and then catch some terrible disease, is it the
>fault of not eradicating the disease from the planet, or the fact that
>you refused to take the immunization? You could look at it either way.
>
>There are a TON of benefits to using racing automotive silicone spark
>plugs wires, and also automobile plugs. A HUGE downside is if you have
>an existing radio that worked fine right up until the increase in noise
>came along. So the person that has that happen personally, refuses to
>consider changing the radio, but instead sits there and blames the spark
>plug wires and plugs themselves, and then gets on this forum and says
>that the new wires and plugs offered no improvement in engine performance
>at all, and just increased noise. Folks, that is a poor soul guy
>venting his frustration and is NOT accurate information. I get it that
>someone went back to Russian wires and plugs. I get it that this made
>the radio noise go away. I get it that anyone would be frustrated with
>that whole experience! And if I was in that persons shoes and did the
>same thing, I might feel the same way.
>
>But FACTUALLY, automotive plugs are better than Russian M-14 engine
>plugs. They are cheaper (by a huge amount). You have a SELECTION of
>heat ranges that allow you to tune the plugs to the engine. They are
>cheap enough to be consumable, as it is easier/cheaper/ more practical
>to purchase new ones than it is to buy a spark plug cleaner, and then go
>through re-gapping, pressure testing, annealing the washers, etc. They
>are also easier to inspect and determine combustion temperature impacts,
>thus changing heat ranges.
>
>Wires: They are for the most part much more separated, thus reducing the
>chance of cross-firing. Changing one wire is a matter of minutes versus
>hours. The Russian wires have plug ends that need to be assembled. More
>spare parts required. Automotive wires are consumable. You don't fix
>them. You throw them away, and AGAIN save time and money. The new wires
>and new plugs fire more consistently and have a much more reliable spark.
> This is most noticed with improvements in idling RPM, thus also
>extending engine life, versus a mis-firing, rough running engine. The
>consistency also places less strain in the mag coil. With the plugs
>always being in a new condition, and changed every year, starting becomes
>easier and more reliable. Less chance of running out of air and being
>left in some hole with no high pressure air, and then propping an M-14
>for the first time in your life.
>
>But they do introduce some additional RF noise. If you have a radio that
>is highly susceptible to that (and I've seen a number of the Becker
>radios that are. Not *ALL* but some....) then you might not want to do
>this mod. If you are thinking about it, ask around to those that have
>your exact model of radio first and see how they are doing with it.
>
>The reason I am writing is to pass accurate information. This will
>bother some people. To those that it does, I hope you will get over it.
>
>
>Mark Bitterlich
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
>Savarese
>Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 7:41 AM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
>
>The problem was never the plugs. It was the wiring harness. The
>original rubber plug wire rubber deteriorates inside the braided shields.
> Once the deterioration starts the plug wire arcs to the braided shield
>(ground) and you know what that does. A misfire. If one wants to retain
>the original harness configuration, the only way to fix that problem is
>to pull a new wire through the wiring harness. If you've never done that
>before, I can tell you its not a fun job especially if the new wire
>separates from the old wire while pulling it through the harness. Been
>there, done that, got the T-shirt.
>
>
>I'll let the people who have the automotive conversion kit comment on
>what they found advantageous.
>
>
>Dennis
>
>
>________________________________
>
>From: Lancer <lrob4783@bigpond.net.au>
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 4:22 AM
>Subject: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
>
>
>
>I have been flying a Nanchang for 13 years and never had to change 1 plug
>in all that time so I can't see the advantage. Can anyone say what the
>motivation was to change theirs and what changes they noticed with the
>auto plugs and leads.
>
>Thanks
>
>--------
>You can run but you can't hide
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455526#455526
>
>
><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
>
>
><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Auto wiring issues |
I have the conversion from Dennis. The engine runs great and starts the
first try almost every time. No radio noise too. I agree with Mark on spark
plugs. For something so easily replaced at relatively low cost one would
ask why someone would increase that risk of failure when flying a single
engine aircraft. I guess we all have our preferences when it comes to spark
plug maintenance.
John
On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 6:59 AM, Rico Jaeger <rocknpilot@hotmail.com> wrote
:
>
> I installed Dennis' ignition wire kit 4 years ago and have zero problems
> w/ radio noise. In fact, one of the biggest compliments I get regarding m
y
> 52 is the quality operation of the original radio and intercom. Not fun t
o
> dial up freq's during busy moments in the cockpit - but rock solid
> dependability.
>
> Rico Jaeger
> 915 S. 11th Ave.
> Wausau, WI. 54401
> 715.529.7426
> //
> 1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
> N8558G //
> Hangar #35 / AUW
> //
> 1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
> N21YK //
> Hangar #21 / AUW
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <
> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> on behalf of Jan Mevis <
> jan.mevis@informavia.be>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:33:24 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
>
>
> Spot on, Mark!
> About 10 years ago, I replaced the original Russian wiring harness with
> the solution from Dennis.
> I immediately had a much smoother running engine.
> Two to three percent drops in stead of >5 what I always had, even with
> brand-new very expensive Russian plugs.
>
> But also more noise on my Russian radio=C4=85s.
> So I changed the radio. I installed a Becker.
> No noise problems at all.
>
> Jan
>
> On 27/04/16 21:36, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
> <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
> ><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
> >
> >First. I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13
> >years on one set of spark plugs. Let me take that back. I did park a
> >car once and it sat 10 years, and then I junked it. It never had a plug
> >change in 10 years either. But plugs do wear out, like anything else.
> >13 years is pretty much an amazing statement.
> >
> >My point is, that if you fly any Russian Radial what is considered a
> >normal amount of hours each year, you are not going to get 13 years out
> >of one set of plugs. Not on ANY spark plug on ANY engine! If the gent
> >that said that wants to insist on it being accurate, so be it. But that
> >would also imply that anyone who does NOT get 13 years out of their plug
s
> >must be doing something wrong. I change my NGK plugs EVERY YEAR! I d
o
> >not wait for things to go bad in airplanes. I try to fix them before
> >they get to the point where they are totally inoperative, or I am stuck
> >somewhere with an engine that won't start, because that has happened to
> >me, and I did not enjoy it.
> >
> >Which brings us to the statement: "If it ain't broke don't fix it".
> >Well yes, to a certain degree, but ..... If my engine appears to be
> >running good, should I not do a compression check during the Conditional
?
> > If my engine is running fine, should I never change the oil and run it
> >for 13 years as well? No. And the writer was NOT implying that, but I
> >had to mention it. But realize that if you run on the original wires
> >and plugs a normal number of hours per year, they are going to fail, and
> >hopefully when you are not far from home. Hopefully it will be a slight
> >miss, and not a totally dead cylinder, or a dead TWO cylinders.
> >
> >I have a lot of experience with plug wires on M-14 engines. A LOT. I
> >could go into the engineering design differences between solid wires wit
h
> >rubber insulation that have to be sealed in a metal tube to work (Farada
y
> >Shield) without tearing up electronics in every direction, compared to
> >those used in every automobile engine made in modern times. Guess whic
h
> >ones work better? I put silicone racing wires in my M-14 as soon as the
y
> >came out, right after I helped a friend do the same change on a Sukhoi
> >SU-26 that belonged to a world renowned aerobatic pilot. I then observe
d
> >better idling, easier starting, along with MASSIVELY CHEAPER spark plug
> >changes. Anyone have the going price of a brand new Russian plug? How
> >about 18 of them? Anyone ever read the articles on Chinese versus
> >Russian plugs? (Which by the way are also unverified). Are people here
> >aware of what can happen if you drop a Russian plug and then install it?
> >
> >
> >Factually there is more RF noise escaping from modern plug wires than
> >there is from ANY plug wire that is totally enclosed in a Faraday Shield
,
> >which is the original Russian design, because that is the technology tha
t
> >they had, and that is the technology that they used. But what also goes
> >along with that fact is how susceptible the radio itself is to RF noise.
> >In that regard, not all radios are created equal, just like not all spar
k
> >plug wires are.
> >
> >Look at it this way. If you refuse to take immunizations, and you lead
> >a healthy life for years and then catch some terrible disease, is it the
> >fault of not eradicating the disease from the planet, or the fact that
> >you refused to take the immunization? You could look at it either way.
> >
> >There are a TON of benefits to using racing automotive silicone spark
> >plugs wires, and also automobile plugs. A HUGE downside is if you have
> >an existing radio that worked fine right up until the increase in noise
> >came along. So the person that has that happen personally, refuses to
> >consider changing the radio, but instead sits there and blames the spark
> >plug wires and plugs themselves, and then gets on this forum and says
> >that the new wires and plugs offered no improvement in engine performanc
e
> >at all, and just increased noise. Folks, that is a poor soul guy
> >venting his frustration and is NOT accurate information. I get it that
> >someone went back to Russian wires and plugs. I get it that this made
> >the radio noise go away. I get it that anyone would be frustrated with
> >that whole experience! And if I was in that persons shoes and did the
> >same thing, I might feel the same way.
> >
> >But FACTUALLY, automotive plugs are better than Russian M-14 engine
> >plugs. They are cheaper (by a huge amount). You have a SELECTION of
> >heat ranges that allow you to tune the plugs to the engine. They are
> >cheap enough to be consumable, as it is easier/cheaper/ more practical
> >to purchase new ones than it is to buy a spark plug cleaner, and then go
> >through re-gapping, pressure testing, annealing the washers, etc. They
> >are also easier to inspect and determine combustion temperature impacts,
> >thus changing heat ranges.
> >
> >Wires: They are for the most part much more separated, thus reducing th
e
> >chance of cross-firing. Changing one wire is a matter of minutes versus
> >hours. The Russian wires have plug ends that need to be assembled. More
> >spare parts required. Automotive wires are consumable. You don't fix
> >them. You throw them away, and AGAIN save time and money. The new wire
s
> >and new plugs fire more consistently and have a much more reliable spark
.
> > This is most noticed with improvements in idling RPM, thus also
> >extending engine life, versus a mis-firing, rough running engine. The
> >consistency also places less strain in the mag coil. With the plugs
> >always being in a new condition, and changed every year, starting become
s
> >easier and more reliable. Less chance of running out of air and being
> >left in some hole with no high pressure air, and then propping an M-14
> >for the first time in your life.
> >
> >But they do introduce some additional RF noise. If you have a radio tha
t
> >is highly susceptible to that (and I've seen a number of the Becker
> >radios that are. Not *ALL* but some....) then you might not want to do
> >this mod. If you are thinking about it, ask around to those that have
> >your exact model of radio first and see how they are doing with it.
> >
> >The reason I am writing is to pass accurate information. This will
> >bother some people. To those that it does, I hope you will get over it
.
> >
> >
> >Mark Bitterlich
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
> >Savarese
> >Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 7:41 AM
> >To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
> >
> >The problem was never the plugs. It was the wiring harness. The
> >original rubber plug wire rubber deteriorates inside the braided shields
.
> > Once the deterioration starts the plug wire arcs to the braided shield
> >(ground) and you know what that does. A misfire. If one wants to retain
> >the original harness configuration, the only way to fix that problem is
> >to pull a new wire through the wiring harness. If you've never done tha
t
> >before, I can tell you its not a fun job especially if the new wire
> >separates from the old wire while pulling it through the harness. Been
> >there, done that, got the T-shirt.
> >
> >
> >I'll let the people who have the automotive conversion kit comment on
> >what they found advantageous.
> >
> >
> >Dennis
> >
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> >
> >From: Lancer <lrob4783@bigpond.net.au>
> >To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 4:22 AM
> >Subject: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
> >
> >
> >
> >I have been flying a Nanchang for 13 years and never had to change 1 plu
g
> >in all that time so I can't see the advantage. Can anyone say what the
> >motivation was to change theirs and what changes they noticed with the
> >auto plugs and leads.
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >--------
> >You can run but you can't hide
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Read this topic online here:
> >
> >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455526#455526
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Auto wiring issues |
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| Subject: | Re:1988 CJ-6A for sale |
Everyone seems to be selling at the same time! Me too. After 21 years of
being the 1st civilian owner of my 1965 CJ-6A, I have it listed on
Barnstormers.
Lots of subtle mods, well cared for but nothing fancy. Rather than $2000 in
chrome engine dress kit, glass cockpit and leather interior, etc. My money
went into basic air frame and the 175 (Russian ) hour SMOH M-14P.
Cost mucho to duplicate in today's dollars., just like other airplanes up
for sale, the full cost of what went into it is discounted, mucho.
Last month I was wrapping up the annual with the plane on the jacks and I
climbed up the wing walk one last time...."POP", I heard it and felt at the
same time my left knee go. Yes, Father Time has spoken to me and I have
headed the call.
Hope to fly it to OSH, see me there.
Craig Payne
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Auto wiring issues |
take it off line.
On Apr 28, 2016, at 11:34, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> Jon, I think it is clear I never called anyone a liar. I did say: =93I
have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on one
set of spark plugs.=94 Now I have. One with a radial, and the other
with an opposed engine. Great! Glad to hear that you have had that
experience.
>
> Dropping spark plugs, I do not disagree with anything you said, but =85
=93For the record=94 =85 there have been instances of the center of the
Russian plugs blowing out with high compression gases being ejected
through the hole into the engine compartment. If that gaseous stream
ignites, you could lose the aircraft. This cannot be adequately tested
under pressure in a spark plug cleaner/tester and this exact hazard has
yet to be reported with automotive plugs.
>
> You said: =93Many are correct when they say it's easier to simply
replace the plugs each year at the annual, but that is also an expensive
option...easy, but more expensive.=94 I=92m sorry, but I do not think
that is an accurate statement when dealing with the M-14 engine. A set
of new Russian spark plugs (if you can find new ones), can go anywhere
from $400 to $600. New NGK=92s, 18 of them, are less than $70. A
cheap A&P runs about $35/hour, correct? He spends 2 hours cleaning,
pressure testing, gapping and then annealing the copper washers, POOF,
his bill is equal to a new set of plugs. Do it yourself? A good
pressure testing spark plug cleaning machine is over $400. And again,
you saved a lot of time and ended up with brand new plugs.
>
> Can you clean mass electrode or NGK plugs and make them last an
extremely long time? Apparently so. I choose not to.
>
> But the real conversation was about the automotive wires. The spark
plugs are really just a bonus to the whole deal for the reasons I said,
and still believe to be accurate. Anyone who has changed plug wires in
the original setup knows all about that part of the deal, but Jon=85 if
you think that is the best way to go=85 good for you. You=92re not
dumb, you are not a liar, you are an aircraft owner and it is your
decision, which everyone here already knows anyway.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Blake
> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:53 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
>
> Well, for the record... And without calling others a liar, I have over
900 hours on my current stock plugs in my stock 285HP CJ and they don't
look like footballs yet. Installed them in 2005, rotate and clean at
every annual. So I completely believe the man when he says he has 13
years on his plugs... In fact, I have no reason NOT to believe him.
>
> The airplane I owned before the CJ was a Mooney 201 with almost 1000
hours on one set of plugs and about 8 years. Additionally, I helped
maintain that airplane after I sold it for an additional 2 years without
installing new plugs. So plugs will last a long time if properly
maintained, cleaned, gapped, rotated each year or 100 hours like on the
Mooney.
>
> So now you've heard of two people going 13 and 11 years on a set of
stock plugs...in radial engines. In a regularly flying airplane (CJ) and
not a car sitting for 10 years. And before you make some statement about
how I too must be telling an untruth, come on over and I'll show you the
plugs, engine and maintenance records. I bought a set of new plugs from
Jim Selby Sr. In 2006 and they still sit in the locker unused.
>
> The gentleman didn't imply that others should get 13 years out of
their plugs... He simply stated that he's gotten 13 years and asked a
question about the advantage of the auto plug conversion. He simply
asked the WHY... So without belittling anyone, the real answer on a
forum intended to inform and educate should have been... Well, in short,
the answer Dennis provided.
>
> So Lancer, the answer to your question is this... Well, at least for
me... I've been running my stock Chinese spark plugs for 11 years (~900
hours) with no issues...and plan to continue until they become
unserviceable. Keep 'em clean and rotated. When you start having issues
look at the wires first as Dennis suggests. I helped a friend change one
p lead on his stock CJ engine and that solved his problem.
>
> Also for the record, if you drop ANY spark plug... Russian, Chinese or
American (REM 38/40) toss it in the trash... For that matter...even if
you drop a NGK plug on concrete toss it in the trash before you install
in your airplane, motorcycle or even lawn mower. The ceramic coating
around the electrode breaks and energy is lost once dropped and damaged.
The only way to tell for certain is pressure testing if you have access
to the equipment. When your plugs start looking like a football, or
wont pass the pressure test or mag drop is too great...ask an A&P and
follow his advice...or change them out... One way You can tell if the
plugs/wires are not firing correctly is CHT or external temperature
tester/probe.
>
> I'm not an aero or mechanical engineer, but I am an A&P... Many are
correct when they say it's easier to simply replace the plugs each year
at the annual, but that is also an expensive option...easy, but more
expensive. In fact, I did just that when doing the annual condition
inspection on a friend's CJ last fall.
>
> Hope this helps and encourages you.
>
> JB
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
>
>
> "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> First. I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13
years on one set of spark plugs. Let me take that back. I did park a
car once and it sat 10 years, and then I junked it. It never had a plug
change in 10 years either. But plugs do wear out, like anything else.
13 years is pretty much an amazing statement.
>
> My point is, that if you fly any Russian Radial what is considered a
normal amount of hours each year, you are not going to get 13 years out
of one set of plugs. Not on ANY spark plug on ANY engine! If the gent
that said that wants to insist on it being accurate, so be it. But that
would also imply that anyone who does NOT get 13 years out of their
plugs must be doing something wrong. I change my NGK plugs EVERY YEAR!
I do not wait for things to go bad in airplanes. I try to fix them
before they get to the point where they are totally inoperative, or I am
stuck somewhere with an engine that won't start, because that has
happened to me, and I did not enjoy it.
>
> Which brings us to the statement: "If it ain't broke don't fix it".
Well yes, to a certain degree, but ..... If my engine appears to be
running good, should I not do a compression check during the
Conditional? If my engine is running fine, should I never change the
oil and run it for 13 years as well? No. And the writer was NOT
implying that, but I had to mention it. But realize that if you run on
the original wires and plugs a normal number of hours per year, they are
going to fail, and hopefully when you are not far from home. Hopefully
it will be a slight miss, and not a totally dead cylinder, or a dead TWO
cylinders.
>
> I have a lot of experience with plug wires on M-14 engines. A LOT. I
could go into the engineering design differences between solid wires
with rubber insulation that have to be sealed in a metal tube to work
(Faraday Shield) without tearing up electronics in every direction,
compared to those used in every automobile engine made in modern times.
Guess which ones work better? I put silicone racing wires in my M-14
as soon as they came out, right after I helped a friend do the same
change on a Sukhoi SU-26 that belonged to a world renowned aerobatic
pilot. I then observed better idling, easier starting, along with
MASSIVELY CHEAPER spark plug changes. Anyone have the going price of a
brand new Russian plug? How about 18 of them? Anyone ever read the
articles on Chinese versus Russian plugs? (Which by the way are also
unverified). Are people here aware of what can happen if you drop a
Russian plug and then install it?
>
> Factually there is more RF noise escaping from modern plug wires than
there is from ANY plug wire that is totally enclosed in a Faraday
Shield, which is the original Russian design, because that is the
technology that they had, and that is the technology that they used.
But what also goes along with that fact is how susceptible the radio
itself is to RF noise. In that regard, not all radios are created
equal, just like not all spark plug wires are.
>
> Look at it this way. If you refuse to take immunizations, and you
lead a healthy life for years and then catch some terrible disease, is
it the fault of not eradicating the disease from the planet, or the fact
that you refused to take the immunization? You could look at it either
way.
>
> There are a TON of benefits to using racing automotive silicone spark
plugs wires, and also automobile plugs. A HUGE downside is if you have
an existing radio that worked fine right up until the increase in noise
came along. So the person that has that happen personally, refuses to
consider changing the radio, but instead sits there and blames the spark
plug wires and plugs themselves, and then gets on this forum and says
that the new wires and plugs offered no improvement in engine
performance at all, and just increased noise. Folks, that is a poor
soul guy venting his frustration and is NOT accurate information. I
get it that someone went back to Russian wires and plugs. I get it
that this made the radio noise go away. I get it that anyone would be
frustrated with that whole experience! And if I was in that persons
shoes and did the same thing, I might feel the same way.
>
> But FACTUALLY, automotive plugs are better than Russian M-14 engine
plugs. They are cheaper (by a huge amount). You have a SELECTION of
heat ranges that allow you to tune the plugs to the engine. They are
cheap enough to be consumable, as it is easier/cheaper/ more practical
to purchase new ones than it is to buy a spark plug cleaner, and then go
through re-gapping, pressure testing, annealing the washers, etc. They
are also easier to inspect and determine combustion temperature impacts,
thus changing heat ranges.
>
> Wires: They are for the most part much more separated, thus reducing
the chance of cross-firing. Changing one wire is a matter of minutes
versus hours. The Russian wires have plug ends that need to be
assembled. More spare parts required. Automotive wires are consumable.
You don't fix them. You throw them away, and AGAIN save time and
money. The new wires and new plugs fire more consistently and have a
much more reliable spark. This is most noticed with improvements in
idling RPM, thus also extending engine life, versus a mis-firing, rough
running engine. The consistency also places less strain in the mag
coil. With the plugs always being in a new condition, and changed every
year, starting becomes easier and more reliable. Less chance of running
out of air and being left in some hole with no high pressure air, and
then propping an M-14 for the first time in your life.
>
> But they do introduce some additional RF noise. If you have a radio
that is highly susceptible to that (and I've seen a number of the Becker
radios that are. Not *ALL* but some....) then you might not want to do
this mod. If you are thinking about it, ask around to those that have
your exact model of radio first and see how they are doing with it.
>
> The reason I am writing is to pass accurate information. This will
bother some people. To those that it does, I hope you will get over
it.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 7:41 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
>
> The problem was never the plugs. It was the wiring harness. The
original rubber plug wire rubber deteriorates inside the braided
shields. Once the deterioration starts the plug wire arcs to the
braided shield (ground) and you know what that does. A misfire. If one
wants to retain the original harness configuration, the only way to fix
that problem is to pull a new wire through the wiring harness. If
you've never done that before, I can tell you its not a fun job
especially if the new wire separates from the old wire while pulling it
through the harness. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
>
>
> I'll let the people who have the automotive conversion kit comment on
what they found advantageous.
>
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Lancer <lrob4783@bigpond.net.au>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 4:22 AM
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
>
>
>
> I have been flying a Nanchang for 13 years and never had to change 1
plug in all that time so I can't see the advantage. Can anyone say what
the motivation was to change theirs and what changes they noticed with
the auto plugs and leads.
>
> Thanks
>
> --------
> You can run but you can't hide
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455526#455526
>
>
>
>
> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
>
>
>
>
> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues |
I have been reading this topic with much interest as this is a kit I want to install
on my Yak 52 in the future.
May I make the polite suggestion that rather trying to see whose spark plug is
the longest we use this forum as an opportunity to try and figure out why some
people are having issues while others are not.
For example, one of the guys at a local field is having radio interference problems
on one mag after installing one a wiring harness kit while Rico is not.
They are both running the original radios, and seemingly the same setup and yet
the results are different.
Also added to the mix that, in the case of my friends plane, the problem is on
one mag only. He has changed the mag for a known good one, no change.
Come on guys, let's move out of the playground into the classroom!
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455599#455599
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re:1988 CJ-6A for sale |
Best of luck, and I hope your health (and knee) come back in good shape soon Craig.
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
on behalf of Craig Payne [yakman285@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 5:11 PM
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Re:1988 CJ-6A for sale
Everyone seems to be selling at the same time! Me too. After 21 years of being
the 1st civilian owner of my 1965 CJ-6A, I have it listed on Barnstormers.
Lots of subtle mods, well cared for but nothing fancy. Rather than $2000 in chrome
engine dress kit, glass cockpit and leather interior, etc. My money went into
basic air frame and the 175 (Russian ) hour SMOH M-14P.
Cost mucho to duplicate in today's dollars., just like other airplanes up for sale,
the full cost of what went into it is discounted, mucho.
Last month I was wrapping up the annual with the plane on the jacks and I climbed
up the wing walk one last time...."POP", I heard it and felt at the same time
my left knee go. Yes, Father Time has spoken to me and I have headed the call.
Hope to fly it to OSH, see me there.
Craig Payne
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues |
Chris,
In my opinion, your post is spot on all the way up to the last very
un-necessary condescending line.
I'm not sure how long you've been on this List but if you have been for any
length of time, you would know that Mark (Bitterlich) is another old (as in
Long) timer on this List with pretty much great experience and knowledge of
our aircraft and related systems. He is not the only one, there are others
on this list with great knowledge and experience as well. From what I can
surmise, Mark's life experience as an Engineer tends to "make" him very
scientific and factual in his posts. I can assure you that very rarely he
expresses an unfounded opinion/fact. He doesn't know "everything" as in
this case of a 13 years old spark plug, but I'd listen and learn from his
experience - after nearly 20 years, I still do...
JB is no amateur either and also with a lot of experience - that is why I
value the exchange between them - and feel that it definitely belongs on
this List
It's also clear to me that both have been trying hard not to slip off and go
personal in their posts and I think this is important.
I own and fly an M-14 powered CJ-6 since 1997 and the exchange between mark
and JB is very interesting to me. I recently did the Auto Conversion and
am too very happy with it. I decided to do it after 3 of my Russian
ignition wires have started to cross-arc inside the shield-tube. Shortly
after the conversion I did have an issue with a Magneto coil failure and I
realized that this problem was caused due to my own failure to check and
adjust the spark plug gaps before installing them (were almost 3 times the
gap recommended).
FWIW,
Sam Sax
Miami, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Looigi
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 9:43 PM
Subject: Yak-List: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues
I have been reading this topic with much interest as this is a kit I want to
install on my Yak 52 in the future.
May I make the polite suggestion that rather trying to see whose spark plug
is the longest we use this forum as an opportunity to try and figure out why
some people are having issues while others are not.
For example, one of the guys at a local field is having radio interference
problems on one mag after installing one a wiring harness kit while Rico is
not. They are both running the original radios, and seemingly the same
setup and yet the results are different.
Also added to the mix that, in the case of my friends plane, the problem is
on one mag only. He has changed the mag for a known good one, no change.
Come on guys, let's move out of the playground into the classroom!
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455599#455599
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues |
No problem. Bill Geipel why don't you take care of this. Please, go right ahead.
Copy and paste.
________________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
on behalf of Looigi [cdoburton@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 9:42 PM
Subject: Yak-List: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues
I have been reading this topic with much interest as this is a kit I want to install
on my Yak 52 in the future.
May I make the polite suggestion that rather trying to see whose spark plug is
the longest we use this forum as an opportunity to try and figure out why some
people are having issues while others are not.
For example, one of the guys at a local field is having radio interference problems
on one mag after installing one a wiring harness kit while Rico is not.
They are both running the original radios, and seemingly the same setup and yet
the results are different.
Also added to the mix that, in the case of my friends plane, the problem is on
one mag only. He has changed the mag for a known good one, no change.
Come on guys, let's move out of the playground into the classroom!
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455599#455599
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues |
okay you win the argument. And now what?
On Apr 28, 2016, at 20:34, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
wrote:
>
> No problem. Bill Geipel why don't you take care of this. Please, go right ahead.
Copy and paste.
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
on behalf of Looigi [cdoburton@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 9:42 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues
>
>
> I have been reading this topic with much interest as this is a kit I want to
install on my Yak 52 in the future.
>
> May I make the polite suggestion that rather trying to see whose spark plug is
the longest we use this forum as an opportunity to try and figure out why some
people are having issues while others are not.
>
> For example, one of the guys at a local field is having radio interference problems
on one mag after installing one a wiring harness kit while Rico is not.
They are both running the original radios, and seemingly the same setup and
yet the results are different.
>
> Also added to the mix that, in the case of my friends plane, the problem is on
one mag only. He has changed the mag for a known good one, no change.
>
> Come on guys, let's move out of the playground into the classroom!
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455599#455599
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Auto wiring issues |
Carefully check the P lead from the noisy mag all the way to the mag
switch. Make sure the shield is complete all the way and grounded at
both ends. The most likely place for trouble is at the mag since the P
lead has been removed at least once.
Frank
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues |
Actually, I was wrong to say a single word. I apologize. I am having some personal
issues right now and am sorry to have caused any kind of issue(s).
Best Regards and carry on,
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
on behalf of Bill Geipel [l129bs@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues
okay you win the argument. And now what?
On Apr 28, 2016, at 20:34, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
wrote:
>
> No problem. Bill Geipel why don't you take care of this. Please, go right ahead.
Copy and paste.
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
on behalf of Looigi [cdoburton@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 9:42 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues
>
>
> I have been reading this topic with much interest as this is a kit I want to
install on my Yak 52 in the future.
>
> May I make the polite suggestion that rather trying to see whose spark plug is
the longest we use this forum as an opportunity to try and figure out why some
people are having issues while others are not.
>
> For example, one of the guys at a local field is having radio interference problems
on one mag after installing one a wiring harness kit while Rico is not.
They are both running the original radios, and seemingly the same setup and
yet the results are different.
>
> Also added to the mix that, in the case of my friends plane, the problem is on
one mag only. He has changed the mag for a known good one, no change.
>
> Come on guys, let's move out of the playground into the classroom!
>
> Chris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455599#455599
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Auto wiring issues |
Your opinion is noted.
And ignored.
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
on behalf of Bill Geipel [l129bs@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
take it off line.
On Apr 28, 2016, at 11:34, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>> wrote:
Jon, I think it is clear I never called anyone a liar. I did say: I have never
in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on one set of spark plugs.
Now I have. One with a radial, and the other with an opposed engine. Great!
Glad to hear that you have had that experience.
Dropping spark plugs, I do not disagree with anything you said, but For the record
there have been instances of the center of the Russian plugs blowing out
with high compression gases being ejected through the hole into the engine compartment.
If that gaseous stream ignites, you could lose the aircraft. This
cannot be adequately tested under pressure in a spark plug cleaner/tester and
this exact hazard has yet to be reported with automotive plugs.
You said: Many are correct when they say it's easier to simply replace the plugs
each year at the annual, but that is also an expensive option...easy, but more
expensive. Im sorry, but I do not think that is an accurate statement when
dealing with the M-14 engine. A set of new Russian spark plugs (if you can find
new ones), can go anywhere from $400 to $600. New NGKs, 18 of them, are
less than $70. A cheap A&P runs about $35/hour, correct? He spends 2 hours
cleaning, pressure testing, gapping and then annealing the copper washers, POOF,
his bill is equal to a new set of plugs. Do it yourself? A good pressure
testing spark plug cleaning machine is over $400. And again, you saved a lot
of time and ended up with brand new plugs.
Can you clean mass electrode or NGK plugs and make them last an extremely long
time? Apparently so. I choose not to.
But the real conversation was about the automotive wires. The spark plugs are
really just a bonus to the whole deal for the reasons I said, and still believe
to be accurate. Anyone who has changed plug wires in the original setup knows
all about that part of the deal, but Jon if you think that is the best way
to go good for you. Youre not dumb, you are not a liar, you are an aircraft owner
and it is your decision, which everyone here already knows anyway.
Mark
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Blake
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
Well, for the record... And without calling others a liar, I have over 900 hours
on my current stock plugs in my stock 285HP CJ and they don't look like footballs
yet. Installed them in 2005, rotate and clean at every annual. So I completely
believe the man when he says he has 13 years on his plugs... In fact, I
have no reason NOT to believe him.
The airplane I owned before the CJ was a Mooney 201 with almost 1000 hours on one
set of plugs and about 8 years. Additionally, I helped maintain that airplane
after I sold it for an additional 2 years without installing new plugs. So
plugs will last a long time if properly maintained, cleaned, gapped, rotated each
year or 100 hours like on the Mooney.
So now you've heard of two people going 13 and 11 years on a set of stock plugs...in
radial engines. In a regularly flying airplane (CJ) and not a car sitting
for 10 years. And before you make some statement about how I too must be telling
an untruth, come on over and I'll show you the plugs, engine and maintenance
records. I bought a set of new plugs from Jim Selby Sr. In 2006 and they
still sit in the locker unused.
The gentleman didn't imply that others should get 13 years out of their plugs...
He simply stated that he's gotten 13 years and asked a question about the advantage
of the auto plug conversion. He simply asked the WHY... So without belittling
anyone, the real answer on a forum intended to inform and educate should
have been... Well, in short, the answer Dennis provided.
So Lancer, the answer to your question is this... Well, at least for me... I've
been running my stock Chinese spark plugs for 11 years (~900 hours) with no issues...and
plan to continue until they become unserviceable. Keep 'em clean
and rotated. When you start having issues look at the wires first as Dennis suggests.
I helped a friend change one p lead on his stock CJ engine and that solved
his problem.
Also for the record, if you drop ANY spark plug... Russian, Chinese or American
(REM 38/40) toss it in the trash... For that matter...even if you drop a NGK
plug on concrete toss it in the trash before you install in your airplane, motorcycle
or even lawn mower. The ceramic coating around the electrode breaks and
energy is lost once dropped and damaged. The only way to tell for certain is
pressure testing if you have access to the equipment. When your plugs start
looking like a football, or wont pass the pressure test or mag drop is too great...ask
an A&P and follow his advice...or change them out... One way You can
tell if the plugs/wires are not firing correctly is CHT or external temperature
tester/probe.
I'm not an aero or mechanical engineer, but I am an A&P... Many are correct when
they say it's easier to simply replace the plugs each year at the annual, but
that is also an expensive option...easy, but more expensive. In fact, I did
just that when doing the annual condition inspection on a friend's CJ last fall.
Hope this helps and encourages you.
JB
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
"Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>> wrote:
First. I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on
one set of spark plugs. Let me take that back. I did park a car once and it
sat 10 years, and then I junked it. It never had a plug change in 10 years either.
But plugs do wear out, like anything else. 13 years is pretty much an
amazing statement.
My point is, that if you fly any Russian Radial what is considered a normal amount
of hours each year, you are not going to get 13 years out of one set of plugs.
Not on ANY spark plug on ANY engine! If the gent that said that wants
to insist on it being accurate, so be it. But that would also imply that anyone
who does NOT get 13 years out of their plugs must be doing something wrong.
I change my NGK plugs EVERY YEAR! I do not wait for things to go bad in airplanes.
I try to fix them before they get to the point where they are totally
inoperative, or I am stuck somewhere with an engine that won't start, because
that has happened to me, and I did not enjoy it.
Which brings us to the statement: "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Well yes,
to a certain degree, but ..... If my engine appears to be running good, should
I not do a compression check during the Conditional? If my engine is running
fine, should I never change the oil and run it for 13 years as well?
No. And the writer was NOT implying that, but I had to mention it. But realize
that if you run on the original wires and plugs a normal number of hours per
year, they are going to fail, and hopefully when you are not far from home.
Hopefully it will be a slight miss, and not a totally dead cylinder, or a dead
TWO cylinders.
I have a lot of experience with plug wires on M-14 engines. A LOT. I could go
into the engineering design differences between solid wires with rubber insulation
that have to be sealed in a metal tube to work (Faraday Shield) without
tearing up electronics in every direction, compared to those used in every automobile
engine made in modern times. Guess which ones work better? I put silicone
racing wires in my M-14 as soon as they came out, right after I helped
a friend do the same change on a Sukhoi SU-26 that belonged to a world renowned
aerobatic pilot. I then observed better idling, easier starting, along with
MASSIVELY CHEAPER spark plug changes. Anyone have the going price of a brand
new Russian plug? How about 18 of them? Anyone ever read the articles on
Chinese versus Russian plugs? (Which by the way are also unverified). Are people
here aware of what can happen if you drop a Russian plug and then install
it?
Factually there is more RF noise escaping from modern plug wires than there is
from ANY plug wire that is totally enclosed in a Faraday Shield, which is the
original Russian design, because that is the technology that they had, and that
is the technology that they used. But what also goes along with that fact
is how susceptible the radio itself is to RF noise. In that regard, not all radios
are created equal, just like not all spark plug wires are.
Look at it this way. If you refuse to take immunizations, and you lead a healthy
life for years and then catch some terrible disease, is it the fault of not
eradicating the disease from the planet, or the fact that you refused to take
the immunization? You could look at it either way.
There are a TON of benefits to using racing automotive silicone spark plugs wires,
and also automobile plugs. A HUGE downside is if you have an existing radio
that worked fine right up until the increase in noise came along. So the person
that has that happen personally, refuses to consider changing the radio,
but instead sits there and blames the spark plug wires and plugs themselves,
and then gets on this forum and says that the new wires and plugs offered no improvement
in engine performance at all, and just increased noise. Folks, that
is a poor soul guy venting his frustration and is NOT accurate information.
I get it that someone went back to Russian wires and plugs. I get it that
this made the radio noise go away. I get it that anyone would be frustrated
with that whole experience! And if I was in that persons shoes and did the same
thing, I might feel the same way.
But FACTUALLY, automotive plugs are better than Russian M-14 engine plugs. They
are cheaper (by a huge amount). You have a SELECTION of heat ranges that
allow you to tune the plugs to the engine. They are cheap enough to be consumable,
as it is easier/cheaper/ more practical to purchase new ones than it is
to buy a spark plug cleaner, and then go through re-gapping, pressure testing,
annealing the washers, etc. They are also easier to inspect and determine combustion
temperature impacts, thus changing heat ranges.
Wires: They are for the most part much more separated, thus reducing the chance
of cross-firing. Changing one wire is a matter of minutes versus hours. The
Russian wires have plug ends that need to be assembled. More spare parts required.
Automotive wires are consumable. You don't fix them. You throw them
away, and AGAIN save time and money. The new wires and new plugs fire more consistently
and have a much more reliable spark. This is most noticed with improvements
in idling RPM, thus also extending engine life, versus a mis-firing,
rough running engine. The consistency also places less strain in the mag coil.
With the plugs always being in a new condition, and changed every year, starting
becomes easier and more reliable. Less chance of running out of air and
being left in some hole with no high pressure air, and then propping an M-14
for the first time in your life.
But they do introduce some additional RF noise. If you have a radio that is highly
susceptible to that (and I've seen a number of the Becker radios that are.
Not *ALL* but some....) then you might not want to do this mod. If you are
thinking about it, ask around to those that have your exact model of radio first
and see how they are doing with it.
The reason I am writing is to pass accurate information. This will bother some
people. To those that it does, I hope you will get over it.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 7:41 AM
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
The problem was never the plugs. It was the wiring harness. The original rubber
plug wire rubber deteriorates inside the braided shields. Once the deterioration
starts the plug wire arcs to the braided shield (ground) and you know what
that does. A misfire. If one wants to retain the original harness configuration,
the only way to fix that problem is to pull a new wire through the wiring
harness. If you've never done that before, I can tell you its not a fun job
especially if the new wire separates from the old wire while pulling it through
the harness. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
I'll let the people who have the automotive conversion kit comment on what they
found advantageous.
Dennis
________________________________
From: Lancer <lrob4783@bigpond.net.au<mailto:lrob4783@bigpond.net.au>>
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 4:22 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
I have been flying a Nanchang for 13 years and never had to change 1 plug in all
that time so I can't see the advantage. Can anyone say what the motivation was
to change theirs and what changes they noticed with the auto plugs and leads.
Thanks
--------
You can run but you can't hide
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455526#455526
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues |
Accepted.
On Apr 28, 2016, at 21:10, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
wrote:
>
>
>
> Actually, I was wrong to say a single word. I apologize. I am having some personal
issues right now and am sorry to have caused any kind of issue(s).
>
> Best Regards and carry on,
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
on behalf of Bill Geipel [l129bs@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 11:02 PM
> To: Yaklist
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues
>
>
> okay you win the argument. And now what?
>
>
> On Apr 28, 2016, at 20:34, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
wrote:
>
>>
>> No problem. Bill Geipel why don't you take care of this. Please, go right
ahead. Copy and paste.
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
on behalf of Looigi [cdoburton@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 9:42 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Yak-List: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues
>>
>>
>> I have been reading this topic with much interest as this is a kit I want to
install on my Yak 52 in the future.
>>
>> May I make the polite suggestion that rather trying to see whose spark plug
is the longest we use this forum as an opportunity to try and figure out why some
people are having issues while others are not.
>>
>> For example, one of the guys at a local field is having radio interference problems
on one mag after installing one a wiring harness kit while Rico is not.
They are both running the original radios, and seemingly the same setup and
yet the results are different.
>>
>> Also added to the mix that, in the case of my friends plane, the problem is
on one mag only. He has changed the mag for a known good one, no change.
>>
>> Come on guys, let's move out of the playground into the classroom!
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455599#455599
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Auto wiring issues |
The noise issue on these planes is a very difficult one.
We recently replaced a Becker 4201 on a Yak 52 with a brandnew Trig.
The Becker worked well enough, but it=B9s only 25 kHz separated, so we decide
d
to go for a new 8.33 kHz model (legislation in Europe will impose this).
Since then, there=B9s intermittent noise.
I am pretty certain that it does not come via the power supply (tested with
different kinds of filters, and ultimately with a separate battery).
So maybe from the P-leads, the tach-generator, bad contacts, =8A.
Nothing to do with the wiring harness though, which was replaced years ago.
Jan
From: <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> on behalf of Frank Stelwagon
<pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
Carefully check the P lead from the noisy mag all the way to the mag switch
.
Make sure the shield is complete all the way and grounded at both ends. The
most likely place for trouble is at the mag since the P lead has been
removed at least once.
Frank
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