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1. 03:16 AM - Re: Auto wiring issues (Lancer)
2. 03:35 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
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| Subject: | Re: Auto wiring issues |
Thanks for the replies regarding fitting auto plugs. In the years I've been flying
this CJ I've had a few fouled plugs which I cleaned up in our plug cleaner/tester
and then went straight back into service but I've never had to replace
one because it failed. I have around 40 spares and only ever had to replace a
plug when one was accidentally dropped :(
The reason I asked is I have a friend who recently purchased a CJ and it came with
the Auto Plug conversion and I couldn't work out what the benefit was in changing
when the original system was sealed and shielded and I never had any issues
with the original set up.
I have noticed my friends CJ has an easy starting engine so maybe the plug/leads
have something to do with that.
Thanks again
Regards,
Lance
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You can run but you can't hide
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455620#455620
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| Subject: | Re: Auto wiring issues |
Very immature statement on my part.
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
on behalf of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD [mark.bitterlich@navy.mil]
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 10:31 PM
Subject: RE: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
Your opinion is noted.
And ignored.
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
on behalf of Bill Geipel [l129bs@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
take it off line.
On Apr 28, 2016, at 11:34, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>> wrote:
Jon, I think it is clear I never called anyone a liar. I did say: I have never
in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on one set of spark plugs.
Now I have. One with a radial, and the other with an opposed engine. Great!
Glad to hear that you have had that experience.
Dropping spark plugs, I do not disagree with anything you said, but For the record
there have been instances of the center of the Russian plugs blowing out
with high compression gases being ejected through the hole into the engine compartment.
If that gaseous stream ignites, you could lose the aircraft. This
cannot be adequately tested under pressure in a spark plug cleaner/tester and
this exact hazard has yet to be reported with automotive plugs.
You said: Many are correct when they say it's easier to simply replace the plugs
each year at the annual, but that is also an expensive option...easy, but more
expensive. Im sorry, but I do not think that is an accurate statement when
dealing with the M-14 engine. A set of new Russian spark plugs (if you can find
new ones), can go anywhere from $400 to $600. New NGKs, 18 of them, are
less than $70. A cheap A&P runs about $35/hour, correct? He spends 2 hours
cleaning, pressure testing, gapping and then annealing the copper washers, POOF,
his bill is equal to a new set of plugs. Do it yourself? A good pressure
testing spark plug cleaning machine is over $400. And again, you saved a lot
of time and ended up with brand new plugs.
Can you clean mass electrode or NGK plugs and make them last an extremely long
time? Apparently so. I choose not to.
But the real conversation was about the automotive wires. The spark plugs are
really just a bonus to the whole deal for the reasons I said, and still believe
to be accurate. Anyone who has changed plug wires in the original setup knows
all about that part of the deal, but Jon if you think that is the best way
to go good for you. Youre not dumb, you are not a liar, you are an aircraft owner
and it is your decision, which everyone here already knows anyway.
Mark
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Blake
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
Well, for the record... And without calling others a liar, I have over 900 hours
on my current stock plugs in my stock 285HP CJ and they don't look like footballs
yet. Installed them in 2005, rotate and clean at every annual. So I completely
believe the man when he says he has 13 years on his plugs... In fact, I
have no reason NOT to believe him.
The airplane I owned before the CJ was a Mooney 201 with almost 1000 hours on one
set of plugs and about 8 years. Additionally, I helped maintain that airplane
after I sold it for an additional 2 years without installing new plugs. So
plugs will last a long time if properly maintained, cleaned, gapped, rotated each
year or 100 hours like on the Mooney.
So now you've heard of two people going 13 and 11 years on a set of stock plugs...in
radial engines. In a regularly flying airplane (CJ) and not a car sitting
for 10 years. And before you make some statement about how I too must be telling
an untruth, come on over and I'll show you the plugs, engine and maintenance
records. I bought a set of new plugs from Jim Selby Sr. In 2006 and they
still sit in the locker unused.
The gentleman didn't imply that others should get 13 years out of their plugs...
He simply stated that he's gotten 13 years and asked a question about the advantage
of the auto plug conversion. He simply asked the WHY... So without belittling
anyone, the real answer on a forum intended to inform and educate should
have been... Well, in short, the answer Dennis provided.
So Lancer, the answer to your question is this... Well, at least for me... I've
been running my stock Chinese spark plugs for 11 years (~900 hours) with no issues...and
plan to continue until they become unserviceable. Keep 'em clean
and rotated. When you start having issues look at the wires first as Dennis suggests.
I helped a friend change one p lead on his stock CJ engine and that solved
his problem.
Also for the record, if you drop ANY spark plug... Russian, Chinese or American
(REM 38/40) toss it in the trash... For that matter...even if you drop a NGK
plug on concrete toss it in the trash before you install in your airplane, motorcycle
or even lawn mower. The ceramic coating around the electrode breaks and
energy is lost once dropped and damaged. The only way to tell for certain is
pressure testing if you have access to the equipment. When your plugs start
looking like a football, or wont pass the pressure test or mag drop is too great...ask
an A&P and follow his advice...or change them out... One way You can
tell if the plugs/wires are not firing correctly is CHT or external temperature
tester/probe.
I'm not an aero or mechanical engineer, but I am an A&P... Many are correct when
they say it's easier to simply replace the plugs each year at the annual, but
that is also an expensive option...easy, but more expensive. In fact, I did
just that when doing the annual condition inspection on a friend's CJ last fall.
Hope this helps and encourages you.
JB
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
"Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>> wrote:
First. I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on
one set of spark plugs. Let me take that back. I did park a car once and it
sat 10 years, and then I junked it. It never had a plug change in 10 years either.
But plugs do wear out, like anything else. 13 years is pretty much an
amazing statement.
My point is, that if you fly any Russian Radial what is considered a normal amount
of hours each year, you are not going to get 13 years out of one set of plugs.
Not on ANY spark plug on ANY engine! If the gent that said that wants
to insist on it being accurate, so be it. But that would also imply that anyone
who does NOT get 13 years out of their plugs must be doing something wrong.
I change my NGK plugs EVERY YEAR! I do not wait for things to go bad in airplanes.
I try to fix them before they get to the point where they are totally
inoperative, or I am stuck somewhere with an engine that won't start, because
that has happened to me, and I did not enjoy it.
Which brings us to the statement: "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Well yes,
to a certain degree, but ..... If my engine appears to be running good, should
I not do a compression check during the Conditional? If my engine is running
fine, should I never change the oil and run it for 13 years as well?
No. And the writer was NOT implying that, but I had to mention it. But realize
that if you run on the original wires and plugs a normal number of hours per
year, they are going to fail, and hopefully when you are not far from home.
Hopefully it will be a slight miss, and not a totally dead cylinder, or a dead
TWO cylinders.
I have a lot of experience with plug wires on M-14 engines. A LOT. I could go
into the engineering design differences between solid wires with rubber insulation
that have to be sealed in a metal tube to work (Faraday Shield) without
tearing up electronics in every direction, compared to those used in every automobile
engine made in modern times. Guess which ones work better? I put silicone
racing wires in my M-14 as soon as they came out, right after I helped
a friend do the same change on a Sukhoi SU-26 that belonged to a world renowned
aerobatic pilot. I then observed better idling, easier starting, along with
MASSIVELY CHEAPER spark plug changes. Anyone have the going price of a brand
new Russian plug? How about 18 of them? Anyone ever read the articles on
Chinese versus Russian plugs? (Which by the way are also unverified). Are people
here aware of what can happen if you drop a Russian plug and then install
it?
Factually there is more RF noise escaping from modern plug wires than there is
from ANY plug wire that is totally enclosed in a Faraday Shield, which is the
original Russian design, because that is the technology that they had, and that
is the technology that they used. But what also goes along with that fact
is how susceptible the radio itself is to RF noise. In that regard, not all radios
are created equal, just like not all spark plug wires are.
Look at it this way. If you refuse to take immunizations, and you lead a healthy
life for years and then catch some terrible disease, is it the fault of not
eradicating the disease from the planet, or the fact that you refused to take
the immunization? You could look at it either way.
There are a TON of benefits to using racing automotive silicone spark plugs wires,
and also automobile plugs. A HUGE downside is if you have an existing radio
that worked fine right up until the increase in noise came along. So the person
that has that happen personally, refuses to consider changing the radio,
but instead sits there and blames the spark plug wires and plugs themselves,
and then gets on this forum and says that the new wires and plugs offered no improvement
in engine performance at all, and just increased noise. Folks, that
is a poor soul guy venting his frustration and is NOT accurate information.
I get it that someone went back to Russian wires and plugs. I get it that
this made the radio noise go away. I get it that anyone would be frustrated
with that whole experience! And if I was in that persons shoes and did the same
thing, I might feel the same way.
But FACTUALLY, automotive plugs are better than Russian M-14 engine plugs. They
are cheaper (by a huge amount). You have a SELECTION of heat ranges that
allow you to tune the plugs to the engine. They are cheap enough to be consumable,
as it is easier/cheaper/ more practical to purchase new ones than it is
to buy a spark plug cleaner, and then go through re-gapping, pressure testing,
annealing the washers, etc. They are also easier to inspect and determine combustion
temperature impacts, thus changing heat ranges.
Wires: They are for the most part much more separated, thus reducing the chance
of cross-firing. Changing one wire is a matter of minutes versus hours. The
Russian wires have plug ends that need to be assembled. More spare parts required.
Automotive wires are consumable. You don't fix them. You throw them
away, and AGAIN save time and money. The new wires and new plugs fire more consistently
and have a much more reliable spark. This is most noticed with improvements
in idling RPM, thus also extending engine life, versus a mis-firing,
rough running engine. The consistency also places less strain in the mag coil.
With the plugs always being in a new condition, and changed every year, starting
becomes easier and more reliable. Less chance of running out of air and
being left in some hole with no high pressure air, and then propping an M-14
for the first time in your life.
But they do introduce some additional RF noise. If you have a radio that is highly
susceptible to that (and I've seen a number of the Becker radios that are.
Not *ALL* but some....) then you might not want to do this mod. If you are
thinking about it, ask around to those that have your exact model of radio first
and see how they are doing with it.
The reason I am writing is to pass accurate information. This will bother some
people. To those that it does, I hope you will get over it.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 7:41 AM
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
The problem was never the plugs. It was the wiring harness. The original rubber
plug wire rubber deteriorates inside the braided shields. Once the deterioration
starts the plug wire arcs to the braided shield (ground) and you know what
that does. A misfire. If one wants to retain the original harness configuration,
the only way to fix that problem is to pull a new wire through the wiring
harness. If you've never done that before, I can tell you its not a fun job
especially if the new wire separates from the old wire while pulling it through
the harness. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
I'll let the people who have the automotive conversion kit comment on what they
found advantageous.
Dennis
________________________________
From: Lancer <lrob4783@bigpond.net.au<mailto:lrob4783@bigpond.net.au>>
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 4:22 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
I have been flying a Nanchang for 13 years and never had to change 1 plug in all
that time so I can't see the advantage. Can anyone say what the motivation was
to change theirs and what changes they noticed with the auto plugs and leads.
Thanks
--------
You can run but you can't hide
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455526#455526
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