Today's Message Index:
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1. 06:35 AM - Re: Nanchang Company, M14P approval (George S. Coy)
2. 06:58 AM - Re: Nanchang Company, M14P approval (Jill Gernetzke)
3. 07:29 AM - Re: Nanchang Company, M14P approval (cjpilot710@aol.com)
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| Subject: | Nanchang Company, M14P approval |
Walt and Pappy,
The other aircraft that used the =9CPraga Doris=9D engine
was the L60 Brigadier. A Czech version of the German Fiesler Storch. The
engine was built in a factory in Prague thus the =9CPraga
=9C designation. As I recall it had a 250 hr. TBO and looked like
a copy of a Continental O-300. Most of the L-60 aircraft were later
fitted with the AI14RA engine.
You may remember the L-60 that I flew to Sun-N-Fun back in 1999. It had
an AI14 engine and was very slow, but an excellent short field aircraft.
It came to an ignominious end as the fellow who bought it from me tied
it out in a field in Connecticut and has just let it rot into the
ground. I think I may also have some Czech language manuals on the Doris
engine as well.
I never realized that it was part of the history of the CJ6.
George Coy
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Nanchang Company, M14P approval
Thanks Pappy;
I had forgotten the name of the Czech engine (Doris B).
The final radial engine choice was the AI14R, later AI14RA
Translation : Alexander Ivchenco, Model 14, Radial, Air start.
There was a later version with electric start: AI14RC. Cylinders
manufactured for the C engine will not work on the A due no provision
for air injection.
Cheers;
Walt
From: cjpilot710@aol.com <mailto:cjpilot710@aol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Nanchang Company, M14P approval
Actually the original engine the CJ-6 prototype was Czechoslovakia Doris
B engine. Evidently the airplane could not reach design speed and the
engine / prop wouldn't match up. That engine was use in one other East
block aircraft prototype and never any place else. That was 1958, in 59
they changed to the Soviet A-14P, and "F530D35" prop. As far as I can
tell, China has never made horizontal opposed aircraft engine.
The Chinese designers had a tough time convincing their government (very
pro Russia at the time) that the CJ-6 was better than the Yak 18A which
the Soviets were offering. The A-14p (or HS-6) took care of that.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 1/19/2017 7:57:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ggg6@att.net <mailto:ggg6@att.net> writes:
<mailto:ggg6@att.net> >
Hi Craig
Yes I am aware of the plan to install a six cyl opposed engine in the CJ
originally
And you very well may be correct on not being an M14-P installed. The
paddle prop pic that I saw helped to make me feel the info might be
true. But I stand corrected. Thank You for the info. If I stumble over
Florida way one of these days, I owe you a =F0=9F=8D=BA or =F0=9F=8D=BB
two. Later.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 19, 2017, at 11:00, Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca
<mailto:wlannon@shaw.ca> > wrote:
>
<mailto:wlannon@shaw.ca> >
>
> Hi Gary;
>
> That's a really cute story, kind of like a fairy tale, nice, but not
too accurate.
>
> The original engine intended for the CJ6 was a 6 cyl. horiz. opposed
Chinese design. Installed on the first prototype it was quickly found
unacceptable and replaced with the early version of the original
Ivchenko engine, the AI14R. That engine went into Chinese production
as the Huosai 6 and,later, the 6A.
> The propellor installation was the stock, original V530 hub and wooden
blades. Chinese designed blades eventually replaced them.
> About the same time as your friend (1993) I imported the first CJ's
into Canada directly from China (there were two already here but
imported from Texas)
>
> Cheers;
> Walt
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Gary Gabbard
> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2017 1:12 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Nanchang Company, M14P approval
>
<mailto:ggg6@att.net> >
>
> Gentlemen, as I recall. The CJ was first produced for the PLA, and it
originally was delivered into Chinese military service with the Russian
M14-P engine . But somewhere along the line they decided they didn't
need that much horsepower for a trainer. So China made a deal with
Wilga of Poland to manufacture their own engine made by Housi of China.
Under license from Wilga. So the Airplane and the engine mount are the
same as the originally produced airframe that was originally produced
with the M14-P engine. This was learned in a conversation with Ron
Bailey of PHX at the time (1995) who was an early importer of the CJ's.
He spent a lot of time in China during the time he was importing them to
the USA. Since purchasing my CJ from him in early (1995). Several years
after I purchased the CJ. I lost track of Ron years ago. I believe he
moved from PHX years ago, so can't verify this by contacting him. I did
see a picture of some CJ's with the large paddle blade props on them !
> that I believe Ron took them on one of his trips to China. The large
square paddle blades would indicate that it was equipped with the M14-P.
And that was before anyone was installing M14-P engines in them here in
the USA as I recall. I have had my CJ for 22 years. Ok maybe if anyone
has contacts in China you could verify that the Airplane was produced
originally with the M14-P. Good luck on your search. Hope this small
amount of info may help you.
> Gary. In Las Vegas, Nevada. CJ N22YK.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jan 18, 2017, at 19:25, Richard Goode
<richard.goode@russianaeros.com <mailto:richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
> wrote:
>>
<richard.goode@russianaeros.com <mailto:richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
>
>>
>> I'm not an expert on how these things are handled in North America,
but
>> surely an STC is approval for a modification onto a certified
aircraft, and
>> of course the Nanchang is completely "experimental", and in the USA
owners
>> have the fantastic good fortune to be able to do pretty much what
they like
>> in terms of modifications and engine changes.
>>
>> Interestingly we in the UK are allowed to fly Yak 50 and 52 only on
the
>> basis that they are "ex-military", since we do not have any form of
an
>> experimental category. The Nanchang, similarly, fits into the same
category.
>>
>> We have recently sold an M 14 P to a UK customer to put into his
Nanchang,
>> but he is having a bureaucratic nightmare with UK CAA to authorise
the
>> conversion. They have asked for stress calculations on the engine
mounts;
>> proof that the engine will be sufficiently cooled et cetera.
>>
>> I would be very doubtful whether there is any "official"
documentation from
>> China authorising the installation of the Russian engine, but I could
be
>> wrong!
>>
>> Richard Goode
>>
>> Rhodds Farm
>> Lyonshall
>> Hereford
>> HR5 3LW
>> United Kingdom
>> Tel: +94 (0) 81 241 5137 (Sri Lanka)
>> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
>> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
>> www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com>
>> I=99m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my
local phone is
>> +94 779 132 160.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Top Ace
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 10:38 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Yak-List: Nanchang Company, M14P approval
>>
<mailto:topacedave@gmail.com> >
>>
>> Installation of a M-14P on a CJ.,,, I know many of the CJ owners have
>> installed the MP-14P engine in the United States,, which is or was
approved
>> by the FAA,,, Here in Canada,, Transport Canada does not recognize
any other
>> motor then the Housai, I would like to install the M14P on my
aircraft.
>> I would need a field or an STC from them to install it here in
Canada,,,
>>
>> I am aware of one MP-14 installed here in Canada !!! 1999,, which at
the
>> time, he was allotted an stc based on a letter that was written from
>> Nanchang at the time that this was a approved engine that could be
>> installed. ( Lost, filed away, or misplaced copy)
>>
>> Question if any one can help is,, does anyone have a copy, or have
>> documentation from Nanchang that it is allowed. I sure would like to
have
>> this so I can present my case to Transport Canada.
>> Have only owned this Cj since June,,, you folks have had them for 20
years
>> plus,, appreciate any help you could send my way.
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465193#465193
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
>
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========================e
ties Day
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang Company, M14P approval |
Walt and Group,
Good morning. I am a stickler for facts and a thank you to Walt for
prompting me to back up my statements with facts. (I am a much worse
grammar cop and that is how I ended up writing for the Red Alert.)
So, I went digging through the library and the shop before my first cup of
coffee, this morning. Here is what I have to add to the discussion:
1. The PZL US1220000 is the correct name for the Wilga prop, not just the
blades. It is listed on the FAA Type Certificate data sheet in this manner.
Nowhere on the 2 Wilga hubs in the shop is there a stamping "V-530".
2. The Yaks/M-14P use the Vpered V-530 T/A Propeller.
3. The CJ uses a J9-GI Propeller type. The stamping on this CJ hub we are
overhauling is stamped with 2 Chinese characters, a dash and then 530. I do
not think the factory in Russia manufactured these hubs. Again, the CJ hub
is for a splined prop shaft. We do install V-530 blade collars in the hub
to be able to use our V-530J, W-530 or stock V-530 blades in the Chinese hub
- no problem.
My question is how people fill out their Airworthiness Application in the
Propeller blocks for Manufacturer and Make/Model?
If you are really curious, I have posted documentation and pictures about
this topic on our M-14P, Inc. Facebook page because I don't know how to do
it here. After 20+ years in this business, there is still a lot I do not
know! : )
Going to get my coffee, now. Have a great weekend!
Jill
M-14P, Inc.
Time: 06:49:07 PM PST US
From: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Nanchang Company, M14P approval
Jill:
The number you are quoting for the PZL Wilga prop. hub is actually the
design number of the blade, not the hub.
If you could take the time and actually look at one you will see the hub
design number is V530 - T35. The M14P uses the same BASIC design number
but
with a very different dash number.
Walt
Jill Gernetzke
M-14P, Inc.
4905 Flightline Drive
Kingman, AZ 86401
928-681-4400
www.m-14p.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang Company, M14P approval |
You know, this is why love this list! I kind of love details but I also
love history. There is "history" in these part and design numbers. They
represent a change. A change from one idea to another better idea for a
different need. Years ago I found a book in a London bookstore, buried
back
behind everything, titled "China Today: Aviation Industry". In it I fou
nd
the details about the design of the CJ-6. The first thing I learned was
it
was not a copy of the Yak-18A. Nowhere near it. Also though the book,
I
ended up meeting Cheng Bushi who along with one other guy, was its design
er.
From him I learn a great deal about the concepts in the design. I was
even able to give him his first ride ever in the CJ-6 in OSH 2003.
Anyway back to the book. On page 109, it states "Ye Xulun proposed to
retro fit the CJ-6 with "Soviet A-14P" engine and F530D35 propeller." Th
at's
where I got my number from. Now all the writers of this book plus editor
s
are Chinese, and most likely English is their second language plus you ha
ve
the dropping of letters just due to typing errors. I have seen the "AI"
on an engine designation before but never would have attributed to
"Alexander Ivchenco". So this is a historical nugget for me. Thanks!
Question: Where did the "M" designation come from? Is that just for the
engines made by AeroStar or something else?
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
PS BTW had a fantastic 9 days in England where I got to sit in (they
wouldn't give me keys) in a MK-9 Spitfire at historic Biggen Hill then sit
in
R4118 Hurricane at Shuttleworth Peter Nunn give me a complete cockpit ch
eck
out. (this time they would not open the hangar door!) Unfortunately
gained 4lbs eating Bangers & mash! :-)
In a message dated 1/20/2017 10:20:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
wlannon@shaw.ca writes:
Thanks Pappy;
I had forgotten the name of the Czech engine (Doris B).
The final radial engine choice was the AI14R, later AI14RA Translation
: Alexander Ivchenco, Model 14, Radial, Air start.
There was a later version with electric start: AI14RC. Cylinders
manufactured for the C engine will not work on the A due no provision for
air
injection.
Cheers;
Walt
From: _cjpilot710@aol.com_ (mailto:cjpilot710@aol.com)
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Nanchang Company, M14P approval
Actually the original engine the CJ-6 prototype was Czechoslovakia Doris
B
engine. Evidently the airplane could not reach design speed and the
engine / prop wouldn't match up. That engine was use in one other East
block
aircraft prototype and never any place else. That was 1958, in 59 they
changed to the Soviet A-14P, and "F530D35" prop. As far as I can tell,
China
has never made horizontal opposed aircraft engine.
The Chinese designers had a tough time convincing their government (very
pro Russia at the time) that the CJ-6 was better than the Yak 18A which th
e
Soviets were offering. The A-14p (or HS-6) took care of that.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 1/19/2017 7:57:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ggg6@att.net writes:
--> Yak-List message posted by: Gary Gabbard <ggg6@att.net>
Hi Craig
Yes I am aware of the plan to install a six cyl opposed engine in the CJ
originally
And you very well may be correct on not being an M14-P installed. The
paddle prop pic that I saw helped to make me feel the info might be true.
But I
stand corrected. Thank You for the info. If I stumble over Florida way on
e
of these days, I owe you a =F0=9F=8D=BA or =F0=9F=8D=BB two. Later.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 19, 2017, at 11:00, Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Gary;
>
> That's a really cute story, kind of like a fairy tale, nice, but not to
o
accurate.
>
> The original engine intended for the CJ6 was a 6 cyl. horiz. opposed
Chinese design. Installed on the first prototype it was quickly found
unacceptable and replaced with the early version of the original Ivchenko
engine,
the AI14R. That engine went into Chinese production as the Huosai 6
and,later, the 6A.
> The propellor installation was the stock, original V530 hub and wooden
blades. Chinese designed blades eventually replaced them.
> About the same time as your friend (1993) I imported the first CJ's int
o
Canada directly from China (there were two already here but imported from
Texas)
>
> Cheers;
> Walt
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Gary Gabbard
> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2017 1:12 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Nanchang Company, M14P approval
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Gary Gabbard <ggg6@att.net>
>
> Gentlemen, as I recall. The CJ was first produced for the PLA, and it
originally was delivered into Chinese military service with the Russian
M14-P engine . But somewhere along the line they decided they didn't need
that
much horsepower for a trainer. So China made a deal with Wilga of Poland
to manufacture their own engine made by Housi of China. Under license fro
m
Wilga. So the Airplane and the engine mount are the same as the originall
y
produced airframe that was originally produced with the M14-P engine. Thi
s
was learned in a conversation with Ron Bailey of PHX at the time (1995)
who
was an early importer of the CJ's. He spent a lot of time in China during
the time he was importing them to the USA. Since purchasing my CJ from hi
m
in early (1995). Several years after I purchased the CJ. I lost track of
Ron years ago. I believe he moved from PHX years ago, so can't verify thi
s by
contacting him. I did see a picture of some CJ's with the large paddle
blade props on them !
> that I believe Ron took them on one of his trips to China. The large
square paddle blades would indicate that it was equipped with the M14-P.
And
that was before anyone was installing M14-P engines in them here in the
USA
as I recall. I have had my CJ for 22 years. Ok maybe if anyone has
contacts in China you could verify that the Airplane was produced origina
lly with
the M14-P. Good luck on your search. Hope this small amount of info may
help you.
> Gary. In Las Vegas, Nevada. CJ N22YK.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jan 18, 2017, at 19:25, Richard Goode
<richard.goode@russianaeros.com> wrote:
>>
<richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
>>
>> I'm not an expert on how these things are handled in North America, bu
t
>> surely an STC is approval for a modification onto a certified aircraft
,
and
>> of course the Nanchang is completely "experimental", and in the USA
owners
>> have the fantastic good fortune to be able to do pretty much what they
like
>> in terms of modifications and engine changes.
>>
>> Interestingly we in the UK are allowed to fly Yak 50 and 52 only on th
e
>> basis that they are "ex-military", since we do not have any form of an
>> experimental category. The Nanchang, similarly, fits into the same
category.
>>
>> We have recently sold an M 14 P to a UK customer to put into his
Nanchang,
>> but he is having a bureaucratic nightmare with UK CAA to authorise the
>> conversion. They have asked for stress calculations on the engine
mounts;
>> proof that the engine will be sufficiently cooled et cetera.
>>
>> I would be very doubtful whether there is any "official" documentation
from
>> China authorising the installation of the Russian engine, but I could
be
>> wrong!
>>
>> Richard Goode
>>
>> Rhodds Farm
>> Lyonshall
>> Hereford
>> HR5 3LW
>> United Kingdom
>> Tel: +94 (0) 81 241 5137 (Sri Lanka)
>> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
>> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
>> www.russianaeros.com
>> I=99m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my loc
al phone
is
>> +94 779 132 160.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Top Ace
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 10:38 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Yak-List: Nanchang Company, M14P approval
>>
>>
>> Installation of a M-14P on a CJ.,,, I know many of the CJ owners have
>> installed the MP-14P engine in the United States,, which is or was
approved
>> by the FAA,,, Here in Canada,, Transport Canada does not recognize any
other
>> motor then the Housai, I would like to install the M14P on my aircraft
.
>> I would need a field or an STC from them to install it here in Canada,
,,
>>
>> I am aware of one MP-14 installed here in Canada !!! 1999,, which at
the
>> time, he was allotted an stc based on a letter that was written from
>> Nanchang at the time that this was a approved engine that could be
>> installed. ( Lost, filed away, or misplaced copy)
>>
>> Question if any one can help is,, does anyone have a copy, or have
>> documentation from Nanchang that it is allowed. I sure would like to
have
>> this so I can present my case to Transport Canada.
>> Have only owned this Cj since June,,, you folks have had them for 20
years
>> plus,, appreciate any help you could send my way.
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465193#465193
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
> =======================
=e ties Day
========================
========================
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS
========================
========================
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
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