Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:15 AM - Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions (Vic)
2. 05:25 AM - Re: AirVenture '17 Planning (John Casper)
3. 06:10 AM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/25/17 (Greg Wrobel)
4. 06:53 AM - Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/25/17 (JON)
5. 08:37 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
6. 09:27 AM - [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions (Vic)
7. 12:04 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
8. 01:17 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions (Hans Oortman)
9. 01:52 PM - [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions (Vic)
10. 02:02 PM - Oshkosh Rooms (ONTHEGOAZ@aol.com)
11. 02:24 PM - Dates for Informal Clinics in the SE US (JON)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions |
Hi Phil,
I did not like the design of the jet, so was thinking along the lines of jets used
in central heating oil burners. There is a taper top seated inside with very
fine grooves that do not point exactly to the center. That is to produce some
swirl and resulting in a cone of oil spray out of the tiny jet. For primer
application all details can be much more rough than for burner use. You have to
experiment a little with water from your water tap at home to see what it does.
But it is no very big deal to make up a jet for your purpose and maybe use
some part of a burner.
Vic
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468797#468797
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050236_kkk_104.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050237_kkk_627.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050240_kkk_117.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050241__kkk_196.jpg
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: AirVenture '17 Planning |
Ricoh. Thud here. Looks like the RPA heavy hitters would like a formation cl
inic weekend before OSH. You up for sponsoring it?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 23, 2017, at 5:08 PM, Rico Jaeger <rocknpilot@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> AWESOME, HERB! 'Got you marked down!
>
>
> Rico Jaeger
> 915 S. 11th Ave.
> Wausau, WI. 54401
> 715.529.7426
> //
> 1969 Cessna 150J ^/---//-X
> N61333 //
> Hangar #35 / AUW
> //
> 1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
> N21YK //
> Hangar #21 / AUW
>
>
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server@matronics
.com> on behalf of Dr. Herbert Coussons <drc@wscare.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 2:35:04 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: AirVenture '17 Planning
>
> Herb is in for flying the weekend before OSH.
>
>
>> On Mar 23, 2017, at 11:55 AM, Rico Jaeger <rocknpilot@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Good Morning, Redstars!
>>
>> This is major advance notice, but just like last year, my band SONIC CIRC
US (find us on FB!) will be playing in the infamous SOS Bros beer tent on Tu
esday, July 25th, 9 - 1. Last year, we had Lee Haven and Dan Booker represen
ting the Redstar contingency - and while they danced very well together ('Th
ought doing the "mambo" to Van Halen was...um...boldly innovative!) it would
be nice to see more of you there this year! But on a brighter note, Cindy H
aven was there, too! :-D
>>
>> Also, would love to once again try to assemble a Pre-OSH gathering in Wau
sau, WI (AUW) if you're headed to EAA early. The airport treats us well and i
t's fun for the locals to witness what they must think is a remake of RED DA
WN in their normally-friendly & sedate skies! The management grills us a mea
l or 2, plenty of free tie-down room, nice hotels in close proximity and ple
nty to see / do on your down time. (BARS!) There's also a $100 Hamburger Fly
In every week night in WI! Even if you can't stay, set down for one last fu
el-up and a cold soda 35 minutes from OSH and say "HI!" If there's any inter
est, please let me know and I'll start gathering a list of attendees and ini
tiate a separate email group. I also plan on promoting this caper when we ge
t a bit closer to GO TIME.
>>
>> Thanks for the consideration, and always PROUD to be affiliated with you a
ll!
>>
>> Rico Jaeger
>> 915 S. 11th Ave.
>> Wausau, WI. 54401
>> 715.529.7426
>> //
>> 1969 Cessna 150J ^/---//-X
>> N61333 //
>> Hangar #35 / AUW
>> //
>> 1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
>> N21YK //
>> Hangar #21 / AUW
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/25/17 |
What's your technique for priming? 5 primes in the summer and 7-8 in the
winter then pull through 3-5 blades. Have one shot of prime ready to go
when you hit the start button. If it fires and starts to quit, give it the
shot while cranking. Every plane has its own minor differences especially
warm and cold. The manual says 5 primes summer and 7-8 winter and pull it
through equal to the number of primes. Not sure about the flex hose but
sounds reasonable. Don't forget to prime the carb with the wobble pump
right before start also.
On Apr 26, 2017 2:10 AM, "Yak-List Digest Server" <yak-list@matronics.com>
wrote:
> *
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
> Today's complete Yak-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the Yak-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style
> 82701&View=html&Chapter 17-04-25&Archive=Yak
>
> Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style
> 82701&View=txt&Chapter 17-04-25&Archive=Yak
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Yak-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Tue 04/25/17: 1
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 05:28 AM - HS6 primer upgrade questions (Philip Nicholson)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:28:19 AM PST US
> From: Philip Nicholson <pednicholson@gmail.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: HS6 primer upgrade questions
>
> Gentlemen,
> plane currently in for annual. We had the primer line off as it was
> crimped at 90 degrees resulting in restricted flow.
>
> It's a pretty odd set up for this line. It comes out of the firewall,
> heads 90 degrees left, then doubles back right, and then another 90 degree
> bend into the intake manifold. Any thoughts of running a steel braided line
> right from the firewall straight in?
>
> The primer "atomizer" is pretty dreadful. We tested it, and really,
> gas just streams out similar to holding your thumb on a water hose. There
> is no atomizing, aerosol-izing, or misting of fuel. Is there an
> after-market part that would do a better job?
>
> Given the poor atomization, we started wondering if one shouldn't
> prime and 'press start' simultaneously (dragging gas into the cylinders) as
> opposed to priming earlier and having the gas collect at the bottom of the
> intake header. I suspect in the South (hotter) this isn't an issue, but in
> the North, gas doesn't create as much vapour.
>
> Anyone performed any upgrades to this system?
> Thoughts?
>
> Phil
> (C-FEPN - Ottawa)
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/25/17 |
I thought it was the "Wrobel" pump... hehe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Wrobel" <clouddog22@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 8:07:50 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yak-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/25/17
What's your technique for priming? 5 primes in the summer and 7-8 in the wi
nter then pull through 3-5 blades. Have one shot of prime ready to go when
you hit the start button. If it fires and starts to quit, give it the shot
while cranking. Every plane has its own minor differences especially warm a
nd cold. The manual says 5 primes summer and 7-8 winter and pull it through
equal to the number of primes. Not sure about the flex hose but sounds rea
sonable. Don't forget to prime the carb with the wobble pump right before s
tart also.
On Apr 26, 2017 2:10 AM, "Yak-List Digest Server" < yak-list@matronics.com
> wrote:
*
=C2-=======================
==
=C2- =C2-Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=C2-=======================
==
Today's complete Yak-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below.=C2- The .html file includes the Digest format
ted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation.=C2- The .txt file includes the plain ASCII versio
n
of the Yak-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
=C2- =C2- http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&
View=html&Chapter 17-04-25&Archive=Yak
Text Version:
=C2- =C2- http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&
View=txt&Chapter 17-04-25&Archive=Yak
=C2-=======================
=C2- =C2-EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
=C2-=======================
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-----------------------------------
------------------------
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2-Yak-List Digest Archive
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- ---
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2
-Total Messages Posted Tue 04/25/17: 1
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-----------------------------------
------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
=C2- =C2- =C2-1. 05:28 AM - HS6 primer upgrade questions=C2- (Phili
p Nicholson)
________________________________=C2- Message 1=C2- ____________________
_________________
Time: 05:28:19 AM PST US
From: Philip Nicholson < pednicholson@gmail.com >
Subject: Yak-List: HS6 primer upgrade questions
Gentlemen,
=C2- =C2- =C2-plane currently in for annual.=C2- We had the primer
line off as it was
crimped at 90 degrees resulting in restricted flow.
=C2- =C2- =C2-It's a pretty odd set up for this line.=C2- It comes
out of the firewall,
heads 90 degrees left, then doubles back right, and then another 90 degree
bend into the intake manifold. Any thoughts of running a steel braided line
right from the firewall straight in?
=C2- =C2- =C2-The primer "atomizer" is pretty dreadful.=C2- We test
ed it, and really,
gas just streams out similar to holding your thumb on a water hose. There
is no atomizing, aerosol-izing, or misting of fuel.=C2- Is there an
after-market part that would do a better job?
=C2- =C2- =C2-Given the poor atomization, we started wondering if one
shouldn't
prime and 'press start' simultaneously (dragging gas into the cylinders) as
opposed to priming earlier and having the gas collect at the bottom of the
intake header. I suspect in the South (hotter) this isn't an issue, but in
the North, gas doesn't create as much vapour.
Anyone performed any upgrades to this system?
Thoughts?
Phil
(C-FEPN - Ottawa)
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions |
Vic, not to dispute your desire to better aerate the primer stream, but I think
you would get much better results following Greg Wrobel's <clouddog22@gmail.com>
advice of making sure to pull the prop through after priming a good number
of times. Having started in temps down near zero, I have learned the hard way
they just priming the fool out of the engine and then pushing the starter button
can easily run you out of air. Worse, the best way to get a good fire in
the engine bay is to do this, and then keep hoping for that miracle start on
the very last dregs of air. Yes, I did that.
Lastly, and I assume you have an intake drain kit installed, leave that valve open
when priming, at least in summer anyway. If you prime when standing outside
the aircraft (Yak-50) then walk around to pull it through, by the time you
have done that, the excess fuel is running out the intake drain preventing a
wad of fuel from being sucked into a cylinder. Shut off drain valve, go start.
That said, there are many methods, mostly all meet with success, but pulling through
is a key element to a quick start.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vic
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 8:13 AM
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions
Hi Phil,
I did not like the design of the jet, so was thinking along the lines of jets used
in central heating oil burners. There is a taper top seated inside with very
fine grooves that do not point exactly to the center. That is to produce some
swirl and resulting in a cone of oil spray out of the tiny jet. For primer
application all details can be much more rough than for burner use. You have to
experiment a little with water from your water tap at home to see what it does.
But it is no very big deal to make up a jet for your purpose and maybe use
some part of a burner.
Vic
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468797#468797
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050236_kkk_104.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050237_kkk_627.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050240_kkk_117.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050241__kkk_196.jpg
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions |
Mark,
WE dont have problems starting the M 14 after my mod. It was just an idea for improvements
as I think a better spray shape from the primer jet may be a lot better
for starting than a stream of fuel running down the case inside. That was
told by a few here leading to poor starting. As drilling extremely small holes
in a jet is not exactly easy in stainless so fabricating a jet like in my pictures
may be more practical in case there was a messed up jet.
Just when pressing the air start button we push the primer as well for the final
prime - and while cranking when necessary.
Vic
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468817#468817
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions |
Sorry Vic, I am not aware of your mod, and I did not see your pictures.
My logic is as follows:
1. If your plan is not to prime the engine at all, but instead to start cranking
it, and THEN prime it furiously while you are cranking, then changing the fuel
primer nozzle to better atomize the stream would make a significant improvement,
at least I would think.
2. If your plan is to prime the engine before it is cranking then the question
becomes how long the fuel will stay atomized after it leaves the primer nozzle.
Unlike an oil burner, we are not injecting fuel directly into a burner can
for ignition. Instead it is going into the supercharger cavity where no matter
what, it is going to hit some metal and start running down the sides, unless
the engine has just been run and is hot.
On a typical day the engine should start within the second blade. If it goes longer
than that, it really was not ready to start when you pushed the starter
button, and you are playing a game of catch-up ball, while in the meantime you
are quickly reducing your air bottle pressure.
If the engine is primed and pulled through before hitting the starter button, 2nd
blade starts are the norm and not the exception. On a warm engine start, just
touching the start button results in instantaneous ignition.
I've done it both ways ... prime and then just push the starter button throwing
more prime in, and then cranking and hoping or doing the prime and pull through
method. The former method does work. The latter method works better.
Personally I'll be very interested in hearing how a different primer nozzle works
for you.
Best of luck,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vic
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 12:25 PM
Subject: Yak-List: [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions
Mark,
WE dont have problems starting the M 14 after my mod. It was just an idea for improvements
as I think a better spray shape from the primer jet may be a lot better
for starting than a stream of fuel running down the case inside. That was
told by a few here leading to poor starting. As drilling extremely small holes
in a jet is not exactly easy in stainless so fabricating a jet like in my pictures
may be more practical in case there was a messed up jet.
Just when pressing the air start button we push the primer as well for the final
prime - and while cranking when necessary.
Vic
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468817#468817
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions |
Mark,
I have never had any problems in starting the Yak52 in very cold weather.
Even after standing still for weeks. As our technician(Ricardas) is saying,
patience is all there is, i.e. Prime the engine on both sides, left 6 or 7
times, right 10 times. Get off the wing, do your walk around and crank the
prop at least 12 times with the drain valve CLOSED. Closed because otherwise
it will wipe away the oil from the bottom cilinder surfaces and the cilinder
heads resulting in "dry" running during the start of the engine.
Get in the plane, strap in prime 5 times on the right side and hit the
button(in practice after in total around 5 or 6 mins).....it will start
after 1 blade, guaranteed. Certainly with the automotive kit installed.
Just my 2 cents....
Hans O.
Op 26-04-17 17:35, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> schreef:
> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Vic, not to dispute your desire to better aerate the primer stream, but I
> think you would get much better results following Greg Wrobel's
> <clouddog22@gmail.com> advice of making sure to pull the prop through after
> priming a good number of times. Having started in temps down near zero, I
> have learned the hard way they just priming the fool out of the engine and
> then pushing the starter button can easily run you out of air. Worse, the
> best way to get a good fire in the engine bay is to do this, and then keep
> hoping for that miracle start on the very last dregs of air. Yes, I did that.
>
> Lastly, and I assume you have an intake drain kit installed, leave that valve
> open when priming, at least in summer anyway. If you prime when standing
> outside the aircraft (Yak-50) then walk around to pull it through, by the time
> you have done that, the excess fuel is running out the intake drain preventing
> a wad of fuel from being sucked into a cylinder. Shut off drain valve, go
> start.
>
> That said, there are many methods, mostly all meet with success, but pulling
> through is a key element to a quick start.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vic
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 8:13 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions
>
>
> Hi Phil,
> I did not like the design of the jet, so was thinking along the lines of jets
> used in central heating oil burners. There is a taper top seated inside with
> very fine grooves that do not point exactly to the center. That is to produce
> some swirl and resulting in a cone of oil spray out of the tiny jet. For
> primer application all details can be much more rough than for burner use. You
> have to experiment a little with water from your water tap at home to see what
> it does. But it is no very big deal to make up a jet for your purpose and
> maybe use some part of a burner.
>
> Vic
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468797#468797
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050236_kkk_104.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050237_kkk_627.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050240_kkk_117.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050241__kkk_196.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions |
Reading the last postings I feel we do a LOT less priming for starting. Of course
we do three or four shots of primer while turning the prop and do one shot
when pressing the button and maybe two or three when the engine requires. But
then no flying in winter or low temps here in Bavaria, as we dont have to fly
at all in bad weather. So I believe there is something good about a spray of fuel
instead of producing a big puddle of gas low down in the case hoping for enough
mixture for an ignition.
But this is just talking about ideas for improvements about the primer, not
really absolutely necessary. But I do remember that some had troubles at starting
due to f***ed up primer jets.
Vic
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468823#468823
Message 10
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Hey Everyone,
I have three rooms left out of four houses (all on the same block) for
the week of Oshkosh! $675.00 for the week (Sunday thru Sunday). The houses
are located 3 miles west of the airport. Drop me a note off list if
interested.
Scott Andrews
Southwest Regional Director
Red Star Pilots Association
602-705-4413
Message 11
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| Subject: | Dates for Informal Clinics in the SE US |
Here=99s a snapshot view of planned events. If you plan to attend let
me know - OFF LIST .
=C2-
May 13 th : Walterboro, SC KRBW
June 9-11: Muscle Shoals, AL KMSL
June 24 th : Enterprise, AL KEDN
July TBD: Lebanon, TN M54 (T)
July 24-30: Oshkosh, WI KOSH
August TBD: Statesboro, GA KTBR
September: Hampton, GA KHMP
October 12-15: Waycross, GA KAYS
November TBD: Maybe Central Florida?? December TBD: ??
Jon Blake
jblake207@comcast.net
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