Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:23 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 (William Geipel)
2. 05:42 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 (Gordon Price)
3. 08:36 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 (HawkerPilot2015)
4. 08:57 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 (doug sapp)
5. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 (Gordon Price)
6. 09:41 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 (Gordon Price)
7. 10:17 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 (doug sapp)
8. 12:05 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
9. 12:21 PM - Re: Magneto failure CD-5 (Lancer)
10. 01:26 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 (George S. Coy)
11. 01:41 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 (Gord Price)
12. 02:56 PM - Re: Re: Magneto failure CD-5 (A. Dennis Savarese)
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| Subject: | Re: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 |
Richard,
Is it possible to get a copy of the service bulletins? (new Yak 50
owner)
Bill
> On Jul 14, 2017, at 00:20, That's looking at his note
<richard.goode@russianaeros.com> wrote:
>
> Firstly I would like to make it clear that we supplied the engine
together with the engine mount rubbers to Gordon Price. But we have used
exactly the same rubbers on around 300 engines that we have supplied to
a wide variety of aircraft, including competition Sukhois and have never
had this problem before. But we will sort it out, and we know from
Gordon that the engine is performing spectacularly well.
>
> But it raises an issue which I think is far more important, and that
is flying a Yak 50 to its design limits of plus 9G and minus 6G. I have
done a lot of research on this topic, and the 50 was unfortunate in that
it was introduced at a time that aerobatics changing from being big
graceful manoeuvres to sharp angles. The Russian team was well funded
and incredibly well motivated, and they were flying them beyond these
limits, and had four fatal accidents to team members. During this period
Yakovlev issued a series of service bulletins to reinforce the last bit
of the aircraft that had broken, culminating in bulletin 79 =93 a
4.5 mm steel plate on top and bottom of the centre section.
>
> But firstly, remember that the Russian pilots were all relatively
light; the aeroplane was flown only with one fuel tank; no generator;
air compressor; a light battery. Then, the TOTAL service life of a team
aircraft was 47 hours. After that it was scrapped. And for any other
aircraft, the total service life was 300 hours, and then it was
scrapped!
>
> I have a serious concern that many pilots today are flying aircraft
that have done far more hours than this; are ignorant of these issues,
and yet feel that they still have a plus 9G aircraft, with a heavy
Western pilot; smoke system; both fuel tanks et cetera!
>
> I prepared a detailed paper some years ago following discussions with
Yakovlev describing the individual failures and then the subsequent
service bulletins. I will send this to anyone who is interested.
>
> Richard Goode Aerobatics
> Rhodds Farm
> Lyonshall
> Hereford
> HR5 3LW
>
> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
> www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Gordon Price
> Sent: 13 July 2017 19:31
> To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>
> Thanks for the advice Frank however it would be nice on this forum if
we could just stick to the topic at hand.
>
> In this case the topic it is a problem with engine mount
rubbers and the fact that the ones supplied did not have the sleeve
bonded to the rubber.
>
> Has anyone ever experienced this?
>
>> On Jul 13, 2017, at 1:44 PM, Frank Stelwagon
<pfstelwagon@earthlink.net <mailto:pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Mark wasn=99t lecturing you! He was telling you what he knows
from experience (lots of it). It might be safer to listen.
>>
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Gord Price
>> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 10:22 AM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>>
>> Mark. I asked for help .....not a lecture on a subject that I am
well versed in nor assumptions that are incorrect
>>
>> I have solved the problem and I am surprised you did not offer the
advice that the sleeve does not require bonding....if it is the correct
mounting rubber.
>>
>> The rubbers that were supplied and installed by my mechanic do not
have the sleeve bonded. In fact the front rubbers do not even have a
sleeve. No wonder they were coming apart.
>>
>> A new 'proper' set is being installed this weekend. I never had this
problem with the old engine because it had the correct rubber mounts
which were sold with the engine.
>>
>> I believe this will solve the problem and I will carry on flying a
very aggressive and dynamic AIRSHOW routine that is well within the
limits of my airplane which is constantly being inspected.
>>
>> It is not the type of flying that most YAK owners engage in however
I am quite at ease flying it this way. I first flew Victor Smolin's YAK
50 in 1982 and I was taught the Lomcevak by its inventor Ladislav Bezak
in 1980.
>>
>> 331 826 9942 <tel:331%20826%209942>. Gord cell Mexico
>> 333 495 5044 <tel:333%20495%205044> Sandy cell Mexico
>> 519 375 6233 <tel:519%20375%206233> Gord cell Canada
>> 519 378 6800 <tel:519%20378%206800> Sandy cell Canada
>> 519 538 2868 <tel:519%20538%202868> House Canada
>> 226 777 4383 <tel:226%20777%204383> Email voice message anywhere
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jul 13, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>> wrote:
>>
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>>
>>>
>>> Typically, the rubber used in these engine mounts deteriorates with
age. Personally what I would try to do under your circumstance is to
measure a new one with a durometer, and then have a mold constructed and
replace them with a polyurethane equivalent.
>>>
>>> You did not ask this, and I am sorry for sticking my nose into the
topic and changing the subject somewhat, but I would suggest that you
also make sure you have the Russian recording accelerometer installed in
your 50, (or a suitable replacement) and are keeping track of the
cycles. The 50 is indeed rated to +9/-6 assuming all the mods are
incorporated. However that was not an unlimited qualification. Meaning
that after so many "cycles" (as documented on the recording
accelerometer), it was a requirement to replace the wings. Considering
most 50's that were flown in unlimited events were usually retired under
100 hours of flight time, it might be worth keeping in mind.
>>>
>>> The kind of damage to engine mount rubbers that you are describing
is something commonly seen on Sukhoi's flying Unlimited level aerobatic
competition, usually with engines just like yours and MTV9-260 props,
thus I suspect you are approaching that kind of G loading. That said,
the Suke construction otherwise is much stronger than the 50. Another
thing that generates this kind of stress is gyroscopic maneuvers usually
accompanied by prop shaft seal damage.
>>>
>>> Good luck.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Gordon Price
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 8:05 AM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>>>
<mailto:gord@thedampub.ca>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We just installed a zero=99d M-13PF with Barrett Pistons which
dyno'd at 435 HP on my YAK 50. Performance is much enhanced however we
have just found some engine mount rubbers are being torn up because the
metal sleeve is moving and cutting the rubber. The airplane is being
flown under the G limits however during the air show sequence I am
sometimes seeing +8 and -5 G. We never had this problem with the old
360 HP engine. We have a new set being installed in the next few days
which should yield more information. Does anyone have experience in
this area? Thinking of bonding the sleeve to the rubber to prevent the
sleeve movement. Thanks in advance. Gord
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
>>> <=======================
=== &nb --> MailScanner has detected a possible
fraud attempt from "forums.matronics.com" claiming to
behttp://forums.ma===================
========;=C2--->=C2-
<http://forums.matronics.com/>MailScanner has detected a possible fraud
attempt from "wiki.matronics.com" claiming to
behttp://wiki.matronics.co================
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List Ads.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
<http://wiki.matronics.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner <http://www.mailscanner.info/>, and
is
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 |
As I recall Richard you did say that the YAK 50 could be flown forever
at +5 and -3.
As I said SOMETIMES I see +8 and -5 G. Just being honest. A normal
airshow routine is +6 and -4 and yes the airplane has all the mods and
lightweight equipment. As for the pilot weight I am always
working on that.
You are right . The engine is spectacular and increased power has
changed the flying characteristics of the airplane which I am still
getting used to. I should be fully up to speed by the end of August
when I fly the CNE Canadian International Air Show in Toronto.
Back to the subject I have been to introduce for discussion
..
Attached is a picture of the different engine mount rubbers.
On the left 2 new ones with the rubber bonded to the steel insert and
on the right one of the damaged mounts where the steel insert is not
bonded and can turn and cut the rubber.
> On Jul 14, 2017, at 2:20 AM, That's looking at his note
<richard.goode@russianaeros.com> wrote:
>
> Firstly I would like to make it clear that we supplied the engine
together with the engine mount rubbers to Gordon Price. But we have used
exactly the same rubbers on around 300 engines that we have supplied to
a wide variety of aircraft, including competition Sukhois and have never
had this problem before. But we will sort it out, and we know from
Gordon that the engine is performing spectacularly well.
>
> But it raises an issue which I think is far more important, and that
is flying a Yak 50 to its design limits of plus 9G and minus 6G. I have
done a lot of research on this topic, and the 50 was unfortunate in that
it was introduced at a time that aerobatics changing from being big
graceful manoeuvres to sharp angles. The Russian team was well funded
and incredibly well motivated, and they were flying them beyond these
limits, and had four fatal accidents to team members. During this period
Yakovlev issued a series of service bulletins to reinforce the last bit
of the aircraft that had broken, culminating in bulletin 79 =93 a
4.5 mm steel plate on top and bottom of the centre section.
>
> But firstly, remember that the Russian pilots were all relatively
light; the aeroplane was flown only with one fuel tank; no generator;
air compressor; a light battery. Then, the TOTAL service life of a team
aircraft was 47 hours. After that it was scrapped. And for any other
aircraft, the total service life was 300 hours, and then it was
scrapped!
>
> I have a serious concern that many pilots today are flying aircraft
that have done far more hours than this; are ignorant of these issues,
and yet feel that they still have a plus 9G aircraft, with a heavy
Western pilot; smoke system; both fuel tanks et cetera!
>
> I prepared a detailed paper some years ago following discussions with
Yakovlev describing the individual failures and then the subsequent
service bulletins. I will send this to anyone who is interested.
>
> Richard Goode Aerobatics
> Rhodds Farm
> Lyonshall
> Hereford
> HR5 3LW
>
> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
> www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Gordon Price
> Sent: 13 July 2017 19:31
> To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>
> Thanks for the advice Frank however it would be nice on this forum if
we could just stick to the topic at hand.
>
> In this case the topic it is a problem with engine mount
rubbers and the fact that the ones supplied did not have the sleeve
bonded to the rubber.
>
> Has anyone ever experienced this?
>
>> On Jul 13, 2017, at 1:44 PM, Frank Stelwagon
<pfstelwagon@earthlink.net <mailto:pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Mark wasn=99t lecturing you! He was telling you what he knows
from experience (lots of it). It might be safer to listen.
>>
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Gord Price
>> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 10:22 AM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>>
>> Mark. I asked for help .....not a lecture on a subject that I am
well versed in nor assumptions that are incorrect
>>
>> I have solved the problem and I am surprised you did not offer the
advice that the sleeve does not require bonding....if it is the correct
mounting rubber.
>>
>> The rubbers that were supplied and installed by my mechanic do not
have the sleeve bonded. In fact the front rubbers do not even have a
sleeve. No wonder they were coming apart.
>>
>> A new 'proper' set is being installed this weekend. I never had this
problem with the old engine because it had the correct rubber mounts
which were sold with the engine.
>>
>> I believe this will solve the problem and I will carry on flying a
very aggressive and dynamic AIRSHOW routine that is well within the
limits of my airplane which is constantly being inspected.
>>
>> It is not the type of flying that most YAK owners engage in however
I am quite at ease flying it this way. I first flew Victor Smolin's YAK
50 in 1982 and I was taught the Lomcevak by its inventor Ladislav Bezak
in 1980.
>>
>> 331 826 9942 <tel:331%20826%209942>. Gord cell Mexico
>> 333 495 5044 <tel:333%20495%205044> Sandy cell Mexico
>> 519 375 6233 <tel:519%20375%206233> Gord cell Canada
>> 519 378 6800 <tel:519%20378%206800> Sandy cell Canada
>> 519 538 2868 <tel:519%20538%202868> House Canada
>> 226 777 4383 <tel:226%20777%204383> Email voice message anywhere
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jul 13, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>> wrote:
>>
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>>
>>>
>>> Typically, the rubber used in these engine mounts deteriorates with
age. Personally what I would try to do under your circumstance is to
measure a new one with a durometer, and then have a mold constructed and
replace them with a polyurethane equivalent.
>>>
>>> You did not ask this, and I am sorry for sticking my nose into the
topic and changing the subject somewhat, but I would suggest that you
also make sure you have the Russian recording accelerometer installed in
your 50, (or a suitable replacement) and are keeping track of the
cycles. The 50 is indeed rated to +9/-6 assuming all the mods are
incorporated. However that was not an unlimited qualification. Meaning
that after so many "cycles" (as documented on the recording
accelerometer), it was a requirement to replace the wings. Considering
most 50's that were flown in unlimited events were usually retired under
100 hours of flight time, it might be worth keeping in mind.
>>>
>>> The kind of damage to engine mount rubbers that you are describing
is something commonly seen on Sukhoi's flying Unlimited level aerobatic
competition, usually with engines just like yours and MTV9-260 props,
thus I suspect you are approaching that kind of G loading. That said,
the Suke construction otherwise is much stronger than the 50. Another
thing that generates this kind of stress is gyroscopic maneuvers usually
accompanied by prop shaft seal damage.
>>>
>>> Good luck.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Gordon Price
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 8:05 AM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>>>
<mailto:gord@thedampub.ca>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We just installed a zero=99d M-13PF with Barrett Pistons which
dyno'd at 435 HP on my YAK 50. Performance is much enhanced however we
have just found some engine mount rubbers are being torn up because the
metal sleeve is moving and cutting the rubber. The airplane is being
flown under the G limits however during the air show sequence I am
sometimes seeing +8 and -5 G. We never had this problem with the old
360 HP engine. We have a new set being installed in the next few days
which should yield more information. Does anyone have experience in
this area? Thinking of bonding the sleeve to the rubber to prevent the
sleeve movement. Thanks in advance. Gord
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
>>> <=======================
=== &nb --> MailScanner has detected a possible
fraud attempt from "forums.matronics.com" claiming to
behttp://forums.ma===================
========;=C2--->=C2-
<http://forums.matronics.com/>MailScanner has detected a possible fraud
attempt from "wiki.matronics.com" claiming to
behttp://wiki.matronics.co================
==========;=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-- List
Conbsp;=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2--Matt Dralle,
List Ads.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
<http://wiki.matronics.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner <http://www.mailscanner.info/>, and
is
> believed to be clean.
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| Subject: | Re: [Non-DoD Source] Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 |
Richard is always good for a dose of common sense. Ignore it at your own peril.
Out of the 30+ types of aircraft I have flown, the -50 was quite possibly, the
finest! What a hoot!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470991#470991
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 |
Gents,
Addressing the "mount rubber" issue only.
Are we 100% sure that the bonding or the failure of bonding to the washer
or to the bushing is the problem here? I suspect that it is not. I
suspect that the mount rubber were incorrectly installed. Since there is
no actual torque value stated in anything I have read it seems that there
exists a large opportunity to install them without enough torque, meaning
not tight enough. In a "normal situation" (gentleman's acro) I would think
that proper installation would not be as critical as is would be in this
rather unusual high g loading situation. This would help explain why this
problem/situation has not been seen much in the past.
Just a WAG on my part, YMMV.
Doug
On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 5:32 AM, Gordon Price <gord@thedampub.ca> wrote:
> As I recall Richard you did say that the YAK 50 could be flown forever at
> +5 and -3.
>
> As I said SOMETIMES I see +8 and -5 G. Just being honest. A normal
> airshow routine is +6 and -4 and yes the airplane has all the mods and
> lightweight equipment. As for the pilot weight I am always worki
ng on that.
>
> You are right . The engine is spectacular and increased power has changed
> the flying characteristics of the airplane which I am still getting used
> to. I should be fully up to speed by the end of August when I fly the CN
E
> Canadian International Air Show in Toronto.
>
>
> Back to the subject I have been to introduce for discussion
..
>
>
> Attached is a picture of the different engine mount rubbers.
>
> On the left 2 new ones with the rubber bonded to the steel insert and on
> the right one of the damaged mounts where the steel insert is not bonded
> and can turn and cut the rubber.
>
>
> On Jul 14, 2017, at 2:20 AM, That's looking at his note <
> richard.goode@russianaeros.com> wrote:
>
> Firstly I would like to make it clear that we supplied the engine togethe
r
> with the engine mount rubbers to Gordon Price. But we have used exactly t
he
> same rubbers on around 300 engines that we have supplied to a wide variet
y
> of aircraft, including competition Sukhois and have never had this proble
m
> before. But we will sort it out, and we know from Gordon that the engine
is
> performing spectacularly well.
>
> But it raises an issue which I think is far more important, and that is
> flying a Yak 50 to its design limits of plus 9G and minus 6G. I have done
a
> lot of research on this topic, and the 50 was unfortunate in that it was
> introduced at a time that aerobatics changing from being big graceful
> manoeuvres to sharp angles. The Russian team was well funded and incredib
ly
> well motivated, and they were flying them beyond these limits, and had
> four fatal accidents to team members. During this period Yakovlev issued
a
> series of service bulletins to reinforce the last bit of the aircraft tha
t
> had broken, culminating in bulletin 79 =93 a 4.5 mm steel plate on
top and
> bottom of the centre section.
>
> But firstly, remember that the Russian pilots were all relatively light;
> the aeroplane was flown only with one fuel tank; no generator; air
> compressor; a light battery. Then, the TOTAL service life of a team
> aircraft was 47 hours. After that it was scrapped. And for any other
> aircraft, the total service life was 300 hours, and then it was scrapped!
>
> I have a serious concern that many pilots today are flying aircraft that
> have done far more hours than this; are ignorant of these issues, and yet
> feel that they still have a plus 9G aircraft, with a heavy Western pilot;
> smoke system; both fuel tanks et cetera!
>
> I prepared a detailed paper some years ago following discussions with
> Yakovlev describing the individual failures and then the subsequent servi
ce
> bulletins. I will send this to anyone who is interested.
>
> Richard Goode Aerobatics
> Rhodds Farm
> Lyonshall
> Hereford
> HR5 3LW
>
> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 <+44%201544%20340120>
> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 <+44%201544%20340129>
> www.russianaeros.com
>
> *From:* owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> yak-list-server@matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] *On
> Behalf Of *Gordon Price
> *Sent:* 13 July 2017 19:31
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>
> Thanks for the advice Frank however it would be nice on this forum if we
> could just stick to the topic at hand.
>
> In this case the topic it is a problem with engine mount rubbe
rs and
> the fact that the ones supplied did not have the sleeve bonded to the
> rubber.
>
> Has anyone ever experienced this?
>
>
> On Jul 13, 2017, at 1:44 PM, Frank Stelwagon <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> Mark wasn=99t lecturing you! He was telling you what he knows from
> experience (lots of it). It might be safer to listen.
>
> *From:* owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> yak-list-server@matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] *On
> Behalf Of *Gord Price
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 13, 2017 10:22 AM
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>
> Mark. I asked for help .....not a lecture on a subject that I am well
> versed in nor assumptions that are incorrect
>
> I have solved the problem and I am surprised you did not offer the advice
> that the sleeve does not require bonding....if it is the correct mounting
> rubber.
>
> The rubbers that were supplied and installed by my mechanic do not have
> the sleeve bonded. In fact the front rubbers do not even have a sleeve.
No
> wonder they were coming apart.
>
> A new 'proper' set is being installed this weekend. I never had this
> problem with the old engine because it had the correct rubber mounts whic
h
> were sold with the engine.
>
> I believe this will solve the problem and I will carry on flying a very
> aggressive and dynamic AIRSHOW routine that is well within the limits of
my
> airplane which is constantly being inspected.
>
>
> It is not the type of flying that most YAK owners engage in however I am
> quite at ease flying it this way. I first flew Victor Smolin's YAK 50 in
> 1982 and I was taught the Lomcevak by its inventor Ladislav Bezak in 198
0.
> 331 826 9942. Gord cell Mexico
> 333 495 5044 Sandy cell Mexico
> 519 375 6233 Gord cell Canada
> 519 378 6800 Sandy cell Canada
> 519 538 2868 House Canada
> 226 777 4383 Email voice message anywhere
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Jul 13, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Typically, the rubber used in these engine mounts deteriorates with age.
> Personally what I would try to do under your circumstance is to measure a
> new one with a durometer, and then have a mold constructed and replace th
em
> with a polyurethane equivalent.
>
> You did not ask this, and I am sorry for sticking my nose into the topic
> and changing the subject somewhat, but I would suggest that you also make
> sure you have the Russian recording accelerometer installed in your 50, (
or
> a suitable replacement) and are keeping track of the cycles. The 50 is
> indeed rated to +9/-6 assuming all the mods are incorporated. However th
at
> was not an unlimited qualification. Meaning that after so many "cycles"
> (as documented on the recording accelerometer), it was a requirement to
> replace the wings. Considering most 50's that were flown in unlimited
> events were usually retired under 100 hours of flight time, it might be
> worth keeping in mind.
>
> The kind of damage to engine mount rubbers that you are describing is
> something commonly seen on Sukhoi's flying Unlimited level aerobatic
> competition, usually with engines just like yours and MTV9-260 props, th
us
> I suspect you are approaching that kind of G loading. That said, the Su
ke
> construction otherwise is much stronger than the 50. Another thing that
> generates this kind of stress is gyroscopic maneuvers usually accompanied
> by prop shaft seal damage.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> yak-list-server@matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] On
> Behalf Of Gordon Price
> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 8:05 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>
>
>
> We just installed a zero=99d M-13PF with Barrett Pistons which dyno
'd at 435
> HP on my YAK 50. Performance is much enhanced however we have just foun
d
> some engine mount rubbers are being torn up because the metal sleeve is
> moving and cutting the rubber. The airplane is being flown under the G
> limits however during the air show sequence I am sometimes seeing +8 and
-5
> G. We never had this problem with the old 360 HP engine. We have a new
> set being installed in the next few days which should yield more
> information. Does anyone have experience in this area? Thinking of
> bonding the sleeve to the rubber to prevent the sleeve movement. Thanks
in
> advance. Gord
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> <========================
== &nb --> *MailScanner has
> detected a possible fraud attempt from "forums.matronics.com" claiming to
> be*http://forums.ma==================
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> attempt from "wiki.matronics.com" claiming to be*
> http://wiki.matronics.co================
==========; - List
> Conbsp; -Matt Dralle, List
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> <http://wiki.matronics.com/>
>
>
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> This message has been scanned for viruses and
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| Subject: | Re: [Non-DoD Source] Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 |
Thanks HawkerPilot2015. Richard I used to compete back in the 80s. I know him
fairly well and certainly respect his advice.
Do you have any experience with the rubber mounts? Are the sleeves on your YAK
-50 bonded to the rubber?
Gord
> On Jul 14, 2017, at 11:33 AM, HawkerPilot2015 <timsmiscaz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Richard is always good for a dose of common sense. Ignore it at your own peril.
>
> Out of the 30+ types of aircraft I have flown, the -50 was quite possibly, the
finest! What a hoot!
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470991#470991
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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|
| Subject: | Re: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 |
Good point Doug and thank you for that. There is a measurement of 34.5
mm on the plans sent to me by George Coy. At that point should the
metal sleeves inside touch?
Does anyone have method of torquing that would be helpful or sod you
just compress to 34.5 mm.
Could not enough torque could cause this problem? Could too much torque
cause the problem? We don=99t know so if someone has experience
please let us know.
We have yet to remove the engine since work is backed up in the shop
however I am told that the forward rubber mounts that are installed did
not have the washer with a sleeve. Only a washer..no sleeve.
Also, which mounts do you sell Doug? With or without the sleeve?
Thanks
Gord
> On Jul 14, 2017, at 11:54 AM, doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Gents,
> Addressing the "mount rubber" issue only.
> Are we 100% sure that the bonding or the failure of bonding to the
washer or to the bushing is the problem here? I suspect that it is not.
I suspect that the mount rubber were incorrectly installed. Since
there is no actual torque value stated in anything I have read it seems
that there exists a large opportunity to install them without enough
torque, meaning not tight enough. In a "normal situation" (gentleman's
acro) I would think that proper installation would not be as critical as
is would be in this rather unusual high g loading situation. This
would help explain why this problem/situation has not been seen much in
the past.
>
> Just a WAG on my part, YMMV.
>
> Doug
>
> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 5:32 AM, Gordon Price <gord@thedampub.ca
<mailto:gord@thedampub.ca>> wrote:
> As I recall Richard you did say that the YAK 50 could be flown forever
at +5 and -3.
>
> As I said SOMETIMES I see +8 and -5 G. Just being honest. A normal
airshow routine is +6 and -4 and yes the airplane has all the mods and
lightweight equipment. As for the pilot weight I am always
working on that.
>
> You are right . The engine is spectacular and increased power has
changed the flying characteristics of the airplane which I am still
getting used to. I should be fully up to speed by the end of August
when I fly the CNE Canadian International Air Show in Toronto.
>
>
> Back to the subject I have been to introduce for discussion
..
>
>
> Attached is a picture of the different engine mount rubbers.
>
> On the left 2 new ones with the rubber bonded to the steel insert and
on the right one of the damaged mounts where the steel insert is not
bonded and can turn and cut the rubber.
>
> <rubber.jpeg>
>
>
>
>> On Jul 14, 2017, at 2:20 AM, That's looking at his note
<richard.goode@russianaeros.com <mailto:richard.goode@russianaeros.com>>
wrote:
>>
>> Firstly I would like to make it clear that we supplied the engine
together with the engine mount rubbers to Gordon Price. But we have used
exactly the same rubbers on around 300 engines that we have supplied to
a wide variety of aircraft, including competition Sukhois and have never
had this problem before. But we will sort it out, and we know from
Gordon that the engine is performing spectacularly well.
>>
>> But it raises an issue which I think is far more important, and that
is flying a Yak 50 to its design limits of plus 9G and minus 6G. I have
done a lot of research on this topic, and the 50 was unfortunate in that
it was introduced at a time that aerobatics changing from being big
graceful manoeuvres to sharp angles. The Russian team was well funded
and incredibly well motivated, and they were flying them beyond these
limits, and had four fatal accidents to team members. During this period
Yakovlev issued a series of service bulletins to reinforce the last bit
of the aircraft that had broken, culminating in bulletin 79 =93 a
4.5 mm steel plate on top and bottom of the centre section.
>>
>> But firstly, remember that the Russian pilots were all relatively
light; the aeroplane was flown only with one fuel tank; no generator;
air compressor; a light battery. Then, the TOTAL service life of a team
aircraft was 47 hours. After that it was scrapped. And for any other
aircraft, the total service life was 300 hours, and then it was
scrapped!
>>
>> I have a serious concern that many pilots today are flying aircraft
that have done far more hours than this; are ignorant of these issues,
and yet feel that they still have a plus 9G aircraft, with a heavy
Western pilot; smoke system; both fuel tanks et cetera!
>>
>> I prepared a detailed paper some years ago following discussions with
Yakovlev describing the individual failures and then the subsequent
service bulletins. I will send this to anyone who is interested.
>>
>> Richard Goode Aerobatics
>> Rhodds Farm
>> Lyonshall
>> Hereford
>> HR5 3LW
>>
>> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 <tel:+44%201544%20340120>
>> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 <tel:+44%201544%20340129>
>> www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
>>
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Gordon Price
>> Sent: 13 July 2017 19:31
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>>
>> Thanks for the advice Frank however it would be nice on this forum if
we could just stick to the topic at hand.
>>
>> In this case the topic it is a problem with engine mount
rubbers and the fact that the ones supplied did not have the sleeve
bonded to the rubber.
>>
>> Has anyone ever experienced this?
>>
>>> On Jul 13, 2017, at 1:44 PM, Frank Stelwagon
<pfstelwagon@earthlink.net <mailto:pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mark wasn=99t lecturing you! He was telling you what he knows
from experience (lots of it). It might be safer to listen.
>>>
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Gord Price
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 10:22 AM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers -
YAK-50
>>>
>>> Mark. I asked for help .....not a lecture on a subject that I am
well versed in nor assumptions that are incorrect
>>>
>>> I have solved the problem and I am surprised you did not offer the
advice that the sleeve does not require bonding....if it is the correct
mounting rubber.
>>>
>>> The rubbers that were supplied and installed by my mechanic do not
have the sleeve bonded. In fact the front rubbers do not even have a
sleeve. No wonder they were coming apart.
>>>
>>> A new 'proper' set is being installed this weekend. I never had
this problem with the old engine because it had the correct rubber
mounts which were sold with the engine.
>>>
>>> I believe this will solve the problem and I will carry on flying a
very aggressive and dynamic AIRSHOW routine that is well within the
limits of my airplane which is constantly being inspected.
>>>
>>> It is not the type of flying that most YAK owners engage in however
I am quite at ease flying it this way. I first flew Victor Smolin's YAK
50 in 1982 and I was taught the Lomcevak by its inventor Ladislav Bezak
in 1980.
>>>
>>> 331 826 9942 <tel:331%20826%209942>. Gord cell Mexico
>>> 333 495 5044 <tel:333%20495%205044> Sandy cell Mexico
>>> 519 375 6233 <tel:519%20375%206233> Gord cell Canada
>>> 519 378 6800 <tel:519%20378%206800> Sandy cell Canada
>>> 519 538 2868 <tel:519%20538%202868> House Canada
>>> 226 777 4383 <tel:226%20777%204383> Email voice message anywhere
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Jul 13, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>> wrote:
>>>
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>>
>>>>
>>>> Typically, the rubber used in these engine mounts deteriorates with
age. Personally what I would try to do under your circumstance is to
measure a new one with a durometer, and then have a mold constructed and
replace them with a polyurethane equivalent.
>>>>
>>>> You did not ask this, and I am sorry for sticking my nose into the
topic and changing the subject somewhat, but I would suggest that you
also make sure you have the Russian recording accelerometer installed in
your 50, (or a suitable replacement) and are keeping track of the
cycles. The 50 is indeed rated to +9/-6 assuming all the mods are
incorporated. However that was not an unlimited qualification. Meaning
that after so many "cycles" (as documented on the recording
accelerometer), it was a requirement to replace the wings. Considering
most 50's that were flown in unlimited events were usually retired under
100 hours of flight time, it might be worth keeping in mind.
>>>>
>>>> The kind of damage to engine mount rubbers that you are describing
is something commonly seen on Sukhoi's flying Unlimited level aerobatic
competition, usually with engines just like yours and MTV9-260 props,
thus I suspect you are approaching that kind of G loading. That said,
the Suke construction otherwise is much stronger than the 50. Another
thing that generates this kind of stress is gyroscopic maneuvers usually
accompanied by prop shaft seal damage.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck.
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Gordon Price
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 8:05 AM
>>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
>>>> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>>>>
<mailto:gord@thedampub.ca>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We just installed a zero=99d M-13PF with Barrett Pistons
which dyno'd at 435 HP on my YAK 50. Performance is much enhanced
however we have just found some engine mount rubbers are being torn up
because the metal sleeve is moving and cutting the rubber. The airplane
is being flown under the G limits however during the air show sequence I
am sometimes seeing +8 and -5 G. We never had this problem with the
old 360 HP engine. We have a new set being installed in the next few
days which should yield more information. Does anyone have experience
in this area? Thinking of bonding the sleeve to the rubber to prevent
the sleeve movement. Thanks in advance. Gord
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
>>>> <=======================
=== &nb --> MailScanner has detected a possible
fraud attempt from "forums.matronics.com" claiming to
behttp://forums.ma===================
========;=C2--->=C2-
<http://forums.matronics.com/>MailScanner has detected a possible fraud
attempt from "wiki.matronics.com" claiming to
behttp://wiki.matronics.co================
==========;=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-- List
Conbsp;=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2--Matt Dralle,
List Ads.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
<http://wiki.matronics.com/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and
>> dangerous content by MailScanner <http://www.mailscanner.info/>, and
is
>> believed to be clean.
>
>
Message 7
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|
| Subject: | Re: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 |
Sorry to say, but I am out of stock on the M14P style mount rubbers at this
time. I do have good stock on the 285 hp style.
We are however actively looking into an alternative mount material which
may work well for both applications, but have no solid info to share at
this time.
Best,
Doug
On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 9:31 AM, Gordon Price <gord@thedampub.ca> wrote:
>
> Good point Doug and thank you for that. There is a measurement of 34.5 m
m
> on the plans sent to me by George Coy. At that point should the metal
> sleeves inside touch?
>
> Does anyone have method of torquing that would be helpful or sod you jus
t
> compress to 34.5 mm.
>
> Could not enough torque could cause this problem? Could too much torque
> cause the problem? We don=99t know so if someone has experience pl
ease let
> us know.
>
> We have yet to remove the engine since work is backed up in the shop
> however I am told that the forward rubber mounts that are installed did n
ot
> have the washer with a sleeve. Only a washer..no sleeve.
>
> Also, which mounts do you sell Doug? With or without the sleeve?
>
> Thanks
>
> Gord
>
> On Jul 14, 2017, at 11:54 AM, doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Gents,
> Addressing the "mount rubber" issue only.
> Are we 100% sure that the bonding or the failure of bonding to the washer
> or to the bushing is the problem here? I suspect that it is not. I
> suspect that the mount rubber were incorrectly installed. Since there is
> no actual torque value stated in anything I have read it seems that there
> exists a large opportunity to install them without enough torque, meaning
> not tight enough. In a "normal situation" (gentleman's acro) I would thi
nk
> that proper installation would not be as critical as is would be in this
> rather unusual high g loading situation. This would help explain why th
is
> problem/situation has not been seen much in the past.
>
> Just a WAG on my part, YMMV.
>
> Doug
>
> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 5:32 AM, Gordon Price <gord@thedampub.ca> wrote:
>
>> As I recall Richard you did say that the YAK 50 could be flown forever a
t
>> +5 and -3.
>>
>> As I said SOMETIMES I see +8 and -5 G. Just being honest. A normal
>> airshow routine is +6 and -4 and yes the airplane has all the mods and
>> lightweight equipment. As for the pilot weight I am always work
ing on that.
>>
>> You are right . The engine is spectacular and increased power has change
d
>> the flying characteristics of the airplane which I am still getting used
>> to. I should be fully up to speed by the end of August when I fly the C
NE
>> Canadian International Air Show in Toronto.
>>
>>
>> Back to the subject I have been to introduce for discussion
..
>>
>>
>> Attached is a picture of the different engine mount rubbers.
>>
>> On the left 2 new ones with the rubber bonded to the steel insert and o
n
>> the right one of the damaged mounts where the steel insert is not bonded
>> and can turn and cut the rubber.
>>
>> <rubber.jpeg>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 14, 2017, at 2:20 AM, That's looking at his note <
>> richard.goode@russianaeros.com> wrote:
>>
>> Firstly I would like to make it clear that we supplied the engine
>> together with the engine mount rubbers to Gordon Price. But we have used
>> exactly the same rubbers on around 300 engines that we have supplied to
a
>> wide variety of aircraft, including competition Sukhois and have never h
ad
>> this problem before. But we will sort it out, and we know from Gordon th
at
>> the engine is performing spectacularly well.
>>
>> But it raises an issue which I think is far more important, and that is
>> flying a Yak 50 to its design limits of plus 9G and minus 6G. I have don
e a
>> lot of research on this topic, and the 50 was unfortunate in that it was
>> introduced at a time that aerobatics changing from being big graceful
>> manoeuvres to sharp angles. The Russian team was well funded and incredi
bly
>> well motivated, and they were flying them beyond these limits, and had
>> four fatal accidents to team members. During this period Yakovlev issued
a
>> series of service bulletins to reinforce the last bit of the aircraft th
at
>> had broken, culminating in bulletin 79 =93 a 4.5 mm steel plate on
top and
>> bottom of the centre section.
>>
>> But firstly, remember that the Russian pilots were all relatively light;
>> the aeroplane was flown only with one fuel tank; no generator; air
>> compressor; a light battery. Then, the TOTAL service life of a team
>> aircraft was 47 hours. After that it was scrapped. And for any other
>> aircraft, the total service life was 300 hours, and then it was scrapped
!
>>
>> I have a serious concern that many pilots today are flying aircraft that
>> have done far more hours than this; are ignorant of these issues, and ye
t
>> feel that they still have a plus 9G aircraft, with a heavy Western pilot
;
>> smoke system; both fuel tanks et cetera!
>>
>> I prepared a detailed paper some years ago following discussions with
>> Yakovlev describing the individual failures and then the subsequent serv
ice
>> bulletins. I will send this to anyone who is interested.
>>
>> Richard Goode Aerobatics
>> Rhodds Farm
>> Lyonshall
>> Hereford
>> HR5 3LW
>>
>> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 <+44%201544%20340120>
>> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 <+44%201544%20340129>
>> www.russianaeros.com
>>
>> *From:* owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-
>> list-server@matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] *On
>> Behalf Of *Gordon Price
>> *Sent:* 13 July 2017 19:31
>> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>>
>> Thanks for the advice Frank however it would be nice on this forum if we
>> could just stick to the topic at hand.
>>
>> In this case the topic it is a problem with engine mount rubb
ers and
>> the fact that the ones supplied did not have the sleeve bonded to the
>> rubber.
>>
>> Has anyone ever experienced this?
>>
>>
>> On Jul 13, 2017, at 1:44 PM, Frank Stelwagon <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Mark wasn=99t lecturing you! He was telling you what he knows fro
m
>> experience (lots of it). It might be safer to listen.
>>
>> *From:* owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-
>> list-server@matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] *On
>> Behalf Of *Gord Price
>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 13, 2017 10:22 AM
>> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>>
>> Mark. I asked for help .....not a lecture on a subject that I am well
>> versed in nor assumptions that are incorrect
>>
>> I have solved the problem and I am surprised you did not offer the advic
e
>> that the sleeve does not require bonding....if it is the correct mountin
g
>> rubber.
>>
>> The rubbers that were supplied and installed by my mechanic do not have
>> the sleeve bonded. In fact the front rubbers do not even have a sleeve.
No
>> wonder they were coming apart.
>>
>> A new 'proper' set is being installed this weekend. I never had this
>> problem with the old engine because it had the correct rubber mounts whi
ch
>> were sold with the engine.
>>
>> I believe this will solve the problem and I will carry on flying a very
>> aggressive and dynamic AIRSHOW routine that is well within the limits of
my
>> airplane which is constantly being inspected.
>>
>>
>> It is not the type of flying that most YAK owners engage in however I a
m
>> quite at ease flying it this way. I first flew Victor Smolin's YAK 50 i
n
>> 1982 and I was taught the Lomcevak by its inventor Ladislav Bezak in 19
80.
>> 331 826 9942. Gord cell Mexico
>> 333 495 5044 Sandy cell Mexico
>> 519 375 6233 Gord cell Canada
>> 519 378 6800 Sandy cell Canada
>> 519 538 2868 House Canada
>> 226 777 4383 Email voice message anywhere
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Jul 13, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
>> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>>
>> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> Typically, the rubber used in these engine mounts deteriorates with age.
>> Personally what I would try to do under your circumstance is to measure
a
>> new one with a durometer, and then have a mold constructed and replace t
hem
>> with a polyurethane equivalent.
>>
>> You did not ask this, and I am sorry for sticking my nose into the topic
>> and changing the subject somewhat, but I would suggest that you also mak
e
>> sure you have the Russian recording accelerometer installed in your 50,
(or
>> a suitable replacement) and are keeping track of the cycles. The 50 is
>> indeed rated to +9/-6 assuming all the mods are incorporated. However t
hat
>> was not an unlimited qualification. Meaning that after so many "cycles"
>> (as documented on the recording accelerometer), it was a requirement to
>> replace the wings. Considering most 50's that were flown in unlimited
>> events were usually retired under 100 hours of flight time, it might be
>> worth keeping in mind.
>>
>> The kind of damage to engine mount rubbers that you are describing is
>> something commonly seen on Sukhoi's flying Unlimited level aerobatic
>> competition, usually with engines just like yours and MTV9-260 props, t
hus
>> I suspect you are approaching that kind of G loading. That said, the S
uke
>> construction otherwise is much stronger than the 50. Another thing that
>> generates this kind of stress is gyroscopic maneuvers usually accompanie
d
>> by prop shaft seal damage.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-
>> list-server@matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>] On
>> Behalf Of Gordon Price
>> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 8:05 AM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>>
>>
>>
>> We just installed a zero=99d M-13PF with Barrett Pistons which dyn
o'd at
>> 435 HP on my YAK 50. Performance is much enhanced however we have just
>> found some engine mount rubbers are being torn up because the metal sle
eve
>> is moving and cutting the rubber. The airplane is being flown under the
G
>> limits however during the air show sequence I am sometimes seeing +8 and
-5
>> G. We never had this problem with the old 360 HP engine. We have a ne
w
>> set being installed in the next few days which should yield more
>> information. Does anyone have experience in this area? Thinking of
>> bonding the sleeve to the rubber to prevent the sleeve movement. Thanks
in
>> advance. Gord
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> <=======================
=== &nb --> *MailScanner has
>> detected a possible fraud attempt from "forums.matronics.com" claiming t
o
>> be*http://forums.ma=================
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>> attempt from "wiki.matronics.com" claiming to be*
>> http://wiki.matronics.co================
==========; - List
>> Conbsp; -Matt Dralle, List
>> Ads.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> <http://wiki.matronics.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and
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| Subject: | Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 |
Mr. Price and list members: I have a few suggestions.
1. Richard Goode provided the engine and the rubbers to Mr. Price. Richard is
considered the de-facto expert on this make & model and other Russian aircraft
as well. His reputation is well earned, and I respect him completely. Mr.
Price has actually accused Richard (by proxy) of supplying him with incorrectly
constructed engine rubbers. Without knowing the exact cause of the failure
of these parts, it is wrong for Mr. Price to insinuate this kind of thing in
public.
2. I suggest Mr. Price that you take this conversation off-line and deal directly
with the person who provided you with the material, is an expert on the material,
and is more than willing to work out any problems that you have with the
material , and has so stated in his message. Ignoring that offer makes no
sense.
You mention that Richard Goode told you that +5/-3 could be flown forever with
a YAK-50. That in fact is correct, and these are numbers I have been careful
to observe in my own 50, since 1999, and for over 800 hours in the model.
What I have tried to gently relate to you (and other 50 owners) is that pulling
+8/-5 in this aircraft is dangerous, and you could end up killing yourself and
worse yet someone in the audience. You have made it very clear that you believe
your aircraft is perfectly safe to "occasionally" pull +8/-5, that +6/-4
is the norm, and that your aircraft is the exception to the rule, that your inspections
make you safe, that I do not know what I am talking about. What this
really boils down to in my opinion is that anything that implies you might be
pushing the envelope in this aircraft is to either be ignored, scoffed at, or
the messenger who tells you what you don't want to hear; attacked.
Mr. Price, I respect you as a pilot and an Airshow performer. But pushing YAK-50
serial number ONE, to +8/-5 G's is too much, even once in a while, especially
with an engine and prop that it was never designed for. It is not a matter
of being right or wrong, it is a matter of public safety.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Price
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
As I recall Richard you did say that the YAK 50 could be flown forever at +5 and
-3.
As I said SOMETIMES I see +8 and -5 G. Just being honest. A normal airshow routine
is +6 and -4 and yes the airplane has all the mods and lightweight equipment.
As for the pilot weight I am always working on that.
You are right . The engine is spectacular and increased power has changed the flying
characteristics of the airplane which I am still getting used to. I should
be fully up to speed by the end of August when I fly the CNE Canadian International
Air Show in Toronto.
Back to the subject I have been to introduce for discussion..
Attached is a picture of the different engine mount rubbers.
On the left 2 new ones with the rubber bonded to the steel insert and on the right
one of the damaged mounts where the steel insert is not bonded and can turn
and cut the rubber.
On Jul 14, 2017, at 2:20 AM, That's looking at his note <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
wrote:
Firstly I would like to make it clear that we supplied the engine together with
the engine mount rubbers to Gordon Price. But we have used exactly the same
rubbers on around 300 engines that we have supplied to a wide variety of aircraft,
including competition Sukhois and have never had this problem before. But
we will sort it out, and we know from Gordon that the engine is performing spectacularly
well.
But it raises an issue which I think is far more important, and that is flying
a Yak 50 to its design limits of plus 9G and minus 6G. I have done a lot of research
on this topic, and the 50 was unfortunate in that it was introduced at
a time that aerobatics changing from being big graceful manoeuvres to sharp angles.
The Russian team was well funded and incredibly well motivated, and they
were flying them beyond these limits, and had four fatal accidents to team
members. During this period Yakovlev issued a series of service bulletins to reinforce
the last bit of the aircraft that had broken, culminating in bulletin
79 a 4.5 mm steel plate on top and bottom of the centre section.
But firstly, remember that the Russian pilots were all relatively light; the aeroplane
was flown only with one fuel tank; no generator; air compressor; a light
battery. Then, the TOTAL service life of a team aircraft was 47 hours. After
that it was scrapped. And for any other aircraft, the total service life was
300 hours, and then it was scrapped!
I have a serious concern that many pilots today are flying aircraft that have
done far more hours than this; are ignorant of these issues, and yet feel that
they still have a plus 9G aircraft, with a heavy Western pilot; smoke system;
both fuel tanks et cetera!
I prepared a detailed paper some years ago following discussions with Yakovlev
describing the individual failures and then the subsequent service bulletins.
I will send this to anyone who is interested.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Price
Sent: 13 July 2017 19:31
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
Thanks for the advice Frank however it would be nice on this forum if we could
just stick to the topic at hand.
In this case the topic it is a problem with engine mount rubbers and the fact
that the ones supplied did not have the sleeve bonded to the rubber.
Has anyone ever experienced this?
On Jul 13, 2017, at 1:44 PM, Frank Stelwagon <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net> wrote:
Mark wasnt lecturing you! He was telling you what he knows from experience (lots
of it). It might be safer to listen.
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> ] On Behalf Of Gord Price
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 10:22 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
Mark. I asked for help .....not a lecture on a subject that I am well versed
in nor assumptions that are incorrect
I have solved the problem and I am surprised you did not offer the advice that
the sleeve does not require bonding....if it is the correct mounting rubber.
The rubbers that were supplied and installed by my mechanic do not have the sleeve
bonded. In fact the front rubbers do not even have a sleeve. No wonder
they were coming apart.
A new 'proper' set is being installed this weekend. I never had this problem
with the old engine because it had the correct rubber mounts which were sold
with the engine.
I believe this will solve the problem and I will carry on flying a very aggressive
and dynamic AIRSHOW routine that is well within the limits of my airplane
which is constantly being inspected.
It is not the type of flying that most YAK owners engage in however I am quite
at ease flying it this way. I first flew Victor Smolin's YAK 50 in 1982 and
I was taught the Lomcevak by its inventor Ladislav Bezak in 1980.
331 826 9942 <tel:331%20826%209942> . Gord cell Mexico
333 495 5044 <tel:333%20495%205044> Sandy cell Mexico
519 375 6233 <tel:519%20375%206233> Gord cell Canada
519 378 6800 <tel:519%20378%206800> Sandy cell Canada
519 538 2868 <tel:519%20538%202868> House Canada
226 777 4383 <tel:226%20777%204383> Email voice message anywhere
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 13, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> > wrote:
Typically, the rubber used in these engine mounts deteriorates with age. Personally
what I would try to do under your circumstance is to measure a new one
with a durometer, and then have a mold constructed and replace them with a polyurethane
equivalent.
You did not ask this, and I am sorry for sticking my nose into the topic and
changing the subject somewhat, but I would suggest that you also make sure you
have the Russian recording accelerometer installed in your 50, (or a suitable
replacement) and are keeping track of the cycles. The 50 is indeed rated to
+9/-6 assuming all the mods are incorporated. However that was not an unlimited
qualification. Meaning that after so many "cycles" (as documented on the
recording accelerometer), it was a requirement to replace the wings. Considering
most 50's that were flown in unlimited events were usually retired under
100 hours of flight time, it might be worth keeping in mind.
The kind of damage to engine mount rubbers that you are describing is something
commonly seen on Sukhoi's flying Unlimited level aerobatic competition, usually
with engines just like yours and MTV9-260 props, thus I suspect you are
approaching that kind of G loading. That said, the Suke construction otherwise
is much stronger than the 50. Another thing that generates this kind of stress
is gyroscopic maneuvers usually accompanied by prop shaft seal damage.
Good luck.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> ] On Behalf Of Gordon Price
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 8:05 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
We just installed a zerod M-13PF with Barrett Pistons which dyno'd at 435 HP
on my YAK 50. Performance is much enhanced however we have just found some
engine mount rubbers are being torn up because the metal sleeve is moving and
cutting the rubber. The airplane is being flown under the G limits however during
the air show sequence I am sometimes seeing +8 and -5 G. We never had
this problem with the old 360 HP engine. We have a new set being installed in
the next few days which should yield more information. Does anyone have experience
in this area? Thinking of bonding the sleeve to the rubber to prevent
the sleeve movement. Thanks in advance. Gord
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
<========================== &nb --> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "forums.matronics.com" claiming to behttp://forums.ma===========================; --> <http://forums.matronics.com/> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "wiki.matronics.com" claiming to behttp://wiki.matronics.co==========================; - List Conbsp; -Matt Dralle, List Ads.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://wiki.matronics.com/>
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Magneto failure CD-5 |
The rotor needs to be timed to the shaft which is why the 3 screws are in slots.
Did you time the rotor??
--------
You can run but you can't hide
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470999#470999
Message 10
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| Subject: | Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 |
Just to let you guys know, We can supply new production motor mount sets
and all new hardware if needed, The part numbers and quantities are as
follows for a complete set::
Qty. 24 of 508400-05
Qty. 2 if the 506400-35.
The -35 mounts are slightly smaller go on the rear by the magnetos and
allow better access to the Magneto timing bolts. Contact me off list and
I can supply pricing as well as a drawing showing the part numbers for
all the bits and where they go.
George Coy
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
Sorry to say, but I am out of stock on the M14P style mount rubbers at
this time. I do have good stock on the 285 hp style.
We are however actively looking into an alternative mount material which
may work well for both applications, but have no solid info to share at
this time.
Best,
Doug
On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 9:31 AM, Gordon Price <gord@thedampub.ca
<mailto:gord@thedampub.ca> > wrote:
Good point Doug and thank you for that. There is a measurement of 34.5
mm on the plans sent to me by George Coy. At that point should the
metal sleeves inside touch?
Does anyone have method of torquing that would be helpful or sod you
just compress to 34.5 mm.
Could not enough torque could cause this problem? Could too much torque
cause the problem? We don=99t know so if someone has experience
please let us know.
We have yet to remove the engine since work is backed up in the shop
however I am told that the forward rubber mounts that are installed did
not have the washer with a sleeve. Only a washer..no sleeve.
Also, which mounts do you sell Doug? With or without the sleeve?
Thanks
Gord
On Jul 14, 2017, at 11:54 AM, doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com
<mailto:dougsappllc@gmail.com> > wrote:
Gents,
Addressing the "mount rubber" issue only.
Are we 100% sure that the bonding or the failure of bonding to the
washer or to the bushing is the problem here? I suspect that it is not.
I suspect that the mount rubber were incorrectly installed. Since
there is no actual torque value stated in anything I have read it seems
that there exists a large opportunity to install them without enough
torque, meaning not tight enough. In a "normal situation" (gentleman's
acro) I would think that proper installation would not be as critical as
is would be in this rather unusual high g loading situation. This
would help explain why this problem/situation has not been seen much in
the past.
Just a WAG on my part, YMMV.
Doug
On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 5:32 AM, Gordon Price <gord@thedampub.ca
<mailto:gord@thedampub.ca> > wrote:
As I recall Richard you did say that the YAK 50 could be flown forever
at +5 and -3.
As I said SOMETIMES I see +8 and -5 G. Just being honest. A normal
airshow routine is +6 and -4 and yes the airplane has all the mods and
lightweight equipment. As for the pilot weight I am always
working on that.
You are right . The engine is spectacular and increased power has
changed the flying characteristics of the airplane which I am still
getting used to. I should be fully up to speed by the end of August
when I fly the CNE Canadian International Air Show in Toronto.
Back to the subject I have been to introduce for
discussion..
Attached is a picture of the different engine mount rubbers.
On the left 2 new ones with the rubber bonded to the steel insert and
on the right one of the damaged mounts where the steel insert is not
bonded and can turn and cut the rubber.
<rubber.jpeg>
On Jul 14, 2017, at 2:20 AM, That's looking at his note
<richard.goode@russianaeros.com <mailto:richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
> wrote:
Firstly I would like to make it clear that we supplied the engine
together with the engine mount rubbers to Gordon Price. But we have used
exactly the same rubbers on around 300 engines that we have supplied to
a wide variety of aircraft, including competition Sukhois and have never
had this problem before. But we will sort it out, and we know from
Gordon that the engine is performing spectacularly well.
But it raises an issue which I think is far more important, and that is
flying a Yak 50 to its design limits of plus 9G and minus 6G. I have
done a lot of research on this topic, and the 50 was unfortunate in that
it was introduced at a time that aerobatics changing from being big
graceful manoeuvres to sharp angles. The Russian team was well funded
and incredibly well motivated, and they were flying them beyond these
limits, and had four fatal accidents to team members. During this period
Yakovlev issued a series of service bulletins to reinforce the last bit
of the aircraft that had broken, culminating in bulletin 79 =93 a
4.5 mm steel plate on top and bottom of the centre section.
But firstly, remember that the Russian pilots were all relatively light;
the aeroplane was flown only with one fuel tank; no generator; air
compressor; a light battery. Then, the TOTAL service life of a team
aircraft was 47 hours. After that it was scrapped. And for any other
aircraft, the total service life was 300 hours, and then it was
scrapped!
I have a serious concern that many pilots today are flying aircraft that
have done far more hours than this; are ignorant of these issues, and
yet feel that they still have a plus 9G aircraft, with a heavy Western
pilot; smoke system; both fuel tanks et cetera!
I prepared a detailed paper some years ago following discussions with
Yakovlev describing the individual failures and then the subsequent
service bulletins. I will send this to anyone who is interested.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 <tel:+44%201544%20340120>
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 <tel:+44%201544%20340129>
<http://www.russianaeros.com/> www.russianaeros.com
From: <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Price
Sent: 13 July 2017 19:31
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
Thanks for the advice Frank however it would be nice on this forum if we
could just stick to the topic at hand.
In this case the topic it is a problem with engine mount
rubbers and the fact that the ones supplied did not have the sleeve
bonded to the rubber.
Has anyone ever experienced this?
On Jul 13, 2017, at 1:44 PM, Frank Stelwagon <
<mailto:pfstelwagon@earthlink.net> pfstelwagon@earthlink.net> wrote:
Mark wasn=99t lecturing you! He was telling you what he knows
from experience (lots of it). It might be safer to listen.
From: <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gord Price
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
Mark. I asked for help .....not a lecture on a subject that I am well
versed in nor assumptions that are incorrect
I have solved the problem and I am surprised you did not offer the
advice that the sleeve does not require bonding....if it is the correct
mounting rubber.
The rubbers that were supplied and installed by my mechanic do not have
the sleeve bonded. In fact the front rubbers do not even have a sleeve.
No wonder they were coming apart.
A new 'proper' set is being installed this weekend. I never had this
problem with the old engine because it had the correct rubber mounts
which were sold with the engine.
I believe this will solve the problem and I will carry on flying a very
aggressive and dynamic AIRSHOW routine that is well within the limits of
my airplane which is constantly being inspected.
It is not the type of flying that most YAK owners engage in however I
am quite at ease flying it this way. I first flew Victor Smolin's YAK
50 in 1982 and I was taught the Lomcevak by its inventor Ladislav Bezak
in 1980.
<tel:331%20826%209942> 331 826 9942. Gord cell Mexico
<tel:333%20495%205044> 333 495 5044 Sandy cell Mexico
<tel:519%20375%206233> 519 375 6233 Gord cell Canada
<tel:519%20378%206800> 519 378 6800 Sandy cell Canada
<tel:519%20538%202868> 519 538 2868 House Canada
<tel:226%20777%204383> 226 777 4383 Email voice message anywhere
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 13, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Typically, the rubber used in these engine mounts deteriorates with age.
Personally what I would try to do under your circumstance is to measure
a new one with a durometer, and then have a mold constructed and replace
them with a polyurethane equivalent.
You did not ask this, and I am sorry for sticking my nose into the topic
and changing the subject somewhat, but I would suggest that you also
make sure you have the Russian recording accelerometer installed in your
50, (or a suitable replacement) and are keeping track of the cycles.
The 50 is indeed rated to +9/-6 assuming all the mods are incorporated.
However that was not an unlimited qualification. Meaning that after so
many "cycles" (as documented on the recording accelerometer), it was a
requirement to replace the wings. Considering most 50's that were
flown in unlimited events were usually retired under 100 hours of flight
time, it might be worth keeping in mind.
The kind of damage to engine mount rubbers that you are describing is
something commonly seen on Sukhoi's flying Unlimited level aerobatic
competition, usually with engines just like yours and MTV9-260 props,
thus I suspect you are approaching that kind of G loading. That said,
the Suke construction otherwise is much stronger than the 50. Another
thing that generates this kind of stress is gyroscopic maneuvers usually
accompanied by prop shaft seal damage.
Good luck.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Price
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 8:05 AM
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
<mailto:gord@thedampub.ca> gord@thedampub.ca>
We just installed a zero=99d M-13PF with Barrett Pistons which
dyno'd at 435 HP on my YAK 50. Performance is much enhanced however we
have just found some engine mount rubbers are being torn up because the
metal sleeve is moving and cutting the rubber. The airplane is being
flown under the G limits however during the air show sequence I am
sometimes seeing +8 and -5 G. We never had this problem with the old
360 HP engine. We have a new set being installed in the next few days
which should yield more information. Does anyone have experience in
this area? Thinking of bonding the sleeve to the rubber to prevent the
sleeve movement. Thanks in advance. Gord
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
<========================
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50 |
Thanks Mark
Your opinions are noted
If you have any knowledge about the different mount rubbers and any failures please
pass it on
Gord
> On Jul 14, 2017, at 3:02 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
wrote:
>
>
> Mr. Price and list members: I have a few suggestions.
>
> 1. Richard Goode provided the engine and the rubbers to Mr. Price. Richard
is considered the de-facto expert on this make & model and other Russian aircraft
as well. His reputation is well earned, and I respect him completely. Mr.
Price has actually accused Richard (by proxy) of supplying him with incorrectly
constructed engine rubbers. Without knowing the exact cause of the failure
of these parts, it is wrong for Mr. Price to insinuate this kind of thing in
public.
>
> 2. I suggest Mr. Price that you take this conversation off-line and deal directly
with the person who provided you with the material, is an expert on the
material, and is more than willing to work out any problems that you have with
the material , and has so stated in his message. Ignoring that offer makes
no sense.
>
> You mention that Richard Goode told you that +5/-3 could be flown forever with
a YAK-50. That in fact is correct, and these are numbers I have been careful
to observe in my own 50, since 1999, and for over 800 hours in the model.
>
> What I have tried to gently relate to you (and other 50 owners) is that pulling
+8/-5 in this aircraft is dangerous, and you could end up killing yourself
and worse yet someone in the audience. You have made it very clear that you believe
your aircraft is perfectly safe to "occasionally" pull +8/-5, that +6/-4
is the norm, and that your aircraft is the exception to the rule, that your
inspections make you safe, that I do not know what I am talking about. What this
really boils down to in my opinion is that anything that implies you might
be pushing the envelope in this aircraft is to either be ignored, scoffed at,
or the messenger who tells you what you don't want to hear; attacked.
>
> Mr. Price, I respect you as a pilot and an Airshow performer. But pushing YAK-50
serial number ONE, to +8/-5 G's is too much, even once in a while, especially
with an engine and prop that it was never designed for. It is not a matter
of being right or wrong, it is a matter of public safety.
>
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Price
> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 8:32 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>
> As I recall Richard you did say that the YAK 50 could be flown forever at +5
and -3.
>
> As I said SOMETIMES I see +8 and -5 G. Just being honest. A normal airshow
routine is +6 and -4 and yes the airplane has all the mods and lightweight equipment.
As for the pilot weight I am always working on that.
>
> You are right . The engine is spectacular and increased power has changed the
flying characteristics of the airplane which I am still getting used to. I should
be fully up to speed by the end of August when I fly the CNE Canadian International
Air Show in Toronto.
>
>
> Back to the subject I have been to introduce for discussion..
>
>
> Attached is a picture of the different engine mount rubbers.
>
> On the left 2 new ones with the rubber bonded to the steel insert and on the
right one of the damaged mounts where the steel insert is not bonded and can
turn and cut the rubber.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 14, 2017, at 2:20 AM, That's looking at his note <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
wrote:
>
> Firstly I would like to make it clear that we supplied the engine together
with the engine mount rubbers to Gordon Price. But we have used exactly the same
rubbers on around 300 engines that we have supplied to a wide variety of aircraft,
including competition Sukhois and have never had this problem before.
But we will sort it out, and we know from Gordon that the engine is performing
spectacularly well.
>
> But it raises an issue which I think is far more important, and that is flying
a Yak 50 to its design limits of plus 9G and minus 6G. I have done a lot
of research on this topic, and the 50 was unfortunate in that it was introduced
at a time that aerobatics changing from being big graceful manoeuvres to sharp
angles. The Russian team was well funded and incredibly well motivated, and
they were flying them beyond these limits, and had four fatal accidents to team
members. During this period Yakovlev issued a series of service bulletins
to reinforce the last bit of the aircraft that had broken, culminating in bulletin
79 a 4.5 mm steel plate on top and bottom of the centre section.
>
> But firstly, remember that the Russian pilots were all relatively light; the
aeroplane was flown only with one fuel tank; no generator; air compressor;
a light battery. Then, the TOTAL service life of a team aircraft was 47 hours.
After that it was scrapped. And for any other aircraft, the total service life
was 300 hours, and then it was scrapped!
>
> I have a serious concern that many pilots today are flying aircraft that have
done far more hours than this; are ignorant of these issues, and yet feel
that they still have a plus 9G aircraft, with a heavy Western pilot; smoke system;
both fuel tanks et cetera!
>
> I prepared a detailed paper some years ago following discussions with Yakovlev
describing the individual failures and then the subsequent service bulletins.
I will send this to anyone who is interested.
>
> Richard Goode Aerobatics
> Rhodds Farm
> Lyonshall
> Hereford
> HR5 3LW
>
> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
> www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Price
> Sent: 13 July 2017 19:31
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>
> Thanks for the advice Frank however it would be nice on this forum if we could
just stick to the topic at hand.
>
> In this case the topic it is a problem with engine mount rubbers and the
fact that the ones supplied did not have the sleeve bonded to the rubber.
>
> Has anyone ever experienced this?
>
>
> On Jul 13, 2017, at 1:44 PM, Frank Stelwagon <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>
> Mark wasnt lecturing you! He was telling you what he knows from experience
(lots of it). It might be safer to listen.
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> ] On Behalf Of Gord Price
> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 10:22 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>
> Mark. I asked for help .....not a lecture on a subject that I am well
versed in nor assumptions that are incorrect
>
> I have solved the problem and I am surprised you did not offer the advice
that the sleeve does not require bonding....if it is the correct mounting
rubber.
>
> The rubbers that were supplied and installed by my mechanic do not have
the sleeve bonded. In fact the front rubbers do not even have a sleeve. No
wonder they were coming apart.
>
> A new 'proper' set is being installed this weekend. I never had this
problem with the old engine because it had the correct rubber mounts which were
sold with the engine.
>
> I believe this will solve the problem and I will carry on flying a very
aggressive and dynamic AIRSHOW routine that is well within the limits of my
airplane which is constantly being inspected.
>
>
> It is not the type of flying that most YAK owners engage in however I
am quite at ease flying it this way. I first flew Victor Smolin's YAK 50 in
1982 and I was taught the Lomcevak by its inventor Ladislav Bezak in 1980.
>
> 331 826 9942 <tel:331%20826%209942> . Gord cell Mexico
> 333 495 5044 <tel:333%20495%205044> Sandy cell Mexico
> 519 375 6233 <tel:519%20375%206233> Gord cell Canada
> 519 378 6800 <tel:519%20378%206800> Sandy cell Canada
> 519 538 2868 <tel:519%20538%202868> House Canada
> 226 777 4383 <tel:226%20777%204383> Email voice message anywhere
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Jul 13, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> > wrote:
>
>
> Typically, the rubber used in these engine mounts deteriorates with
age. Personally what I would try to do under your circumstance is to measure
a new one with a durometer, and then have a mold constructed and replace them
with a polyurethane equivalent.
>
> You did not ask this, and I am sorry for sticking my nose into the
topic and changing the subject somewhat, but I would suggest that you also make
sure you have the Russian recording accelerometer installed in your 50, (or
a suitable replacement) and are keeping track of the cycles. The 50 is indeed
rated to +9/-6 assuming all the mods are incorporated. However that was not
an unlimited qualification. Meaning that after so many "cycles" (as documented
on the recording accelerometer), it was a requirement to replace the wings.
Considering most 50's that were flown in unlimited events were usually retired
under 100 hours of flight time, it might be worth keeping in mind.
>
> The kind of damage to engine mount rubbers that you are describing
is something commonly seen on Sukhoi's flying Unlimited level aerobatic competition,
usually with engines just like yours and MTV9-260 props, thus I suspect
you are approaching that kind of G loading. That said, the Suke construction
otherwise is much stronger than the 50. Another thing that generates this
kind of stress is gyroscopic maneuvers usually accompanied by prop shaft seal
damage.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> ] On Behalf Of Gordon Price
> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 8:05 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Engine mount rubbers - YAK-50
>
>
>
> We just installed a zerod M-13PF with Barrett Pistons which dyno'd
at 435 HP on my YAK 50. Performance is much enhanced however we have just found
some engine mount rubbers are being torn up because the metal sleeve is
moving and cutting the rubber. The airplane is being flown under the G limits
however during the air show sequence I am sometimes seeing +8 and -5 G. We
never had this problem with the old 360 HP engine. We have a new set being installed
in the next few days which should yield more information. Does anyone
have experience in this area? Thinking of bonding the sleeve to the rubber to
prevent the sleeve movement. Thanks in advance. Gord
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
> <========================== &nb --> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "forums.matronics.com" claiming to behttp://forums.ma===========================; --> <http://forums.matronics.com/> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "wiki.matronics.com" claiming to behttp://wiki.matronics.co==========================; - List Conbsp; -Matt Dralle, List Ads.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://wiki.matronics.com/>
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| Subject: | Re: Magneto failure CD-5 |
"Time" the rotor? How do you "time" the rotor? Or do you mean the
rotor needs to be properly ALIGNED? The slots in the rotor screw holes
are used to _position_ the finger (rotor turns counter clockwise and on
2 finger rotors, it's the leading finger in the counter clockwise
direction) of the rotor to point _directly_ at the scribe mark on the
cover's mating surface next to the high voltage stick at the exact point
where the points open, using a magneto timing box.
If anyone would like the diagram of the magneto under the cover, marked
to point out the various parts used in setting the points and the fine
timing adjustment, email me off-list and I will send it to you.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 7/14/2017 3:18 PM, Lancer wrote:
>
> The rotor needs to be timed to the shaft which is why the 3 screws are in slots.
Did you time the rotor??
>
> --------
> You can run but you can't hide
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470999#470999
>
>
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