Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:22 AM - Re: Mags off, still got fire... (A. Dennis Savarese)
2. 06:36 AM - Re: Mags off, still got fire... (bmsim)
3. 07:52 AM - Re: Program letter and pax (HawkerPilot2015)
4. 08:12 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Mags off, still got fire... (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
5. 08:17 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Mags off, still got fire... (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
6. 08:25 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Mags off, still got fire... (John B)
7. 01:37 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Program letter and pax (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
8. 02:07 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Program letter and pax (A. Dennis Savarese)
9. 02:48 PM - Re: Re: Program letter and pax (Richard Hess)
10. 02:56 PM - [Non-DoD Source] Re: Program letter and pax (HawkerPilot2015)
11. 03:11 PM - [Non-DoD Source] Re: Program letter and pax (HawkerPilot2015)
12. 05:31 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Program letter and pax (A. Dennis Savarese)
13. 09:10 PM - Re: Mags off, still got fire... (Royden Heays)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
An easy check would be to remove the P lead from each mag and, using an ohm
meter, test each P lead to see if it is grounded at the P lead.=C2- The
ground to the mag comes from the mag switch to the P lead.=C2- Have someo
ne in the cockpit (if possible) switch the mag switch on and then off to ve
rify the ground is always there when in the OFF position.=C2- When it the
"1" position, #2 should be grounded and vice versa.=C2- Assuming your ai
rplane is wired normally, position 1 is the left mag (looking forward from
the cockpit) and 2 is the right mag.=C2- But confirm that when you remove
the P leads using the ohm meter.Dennis
From: Gary Gabbard <ggg6@att.net>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Mags off, still got fire...
Brandon. You may have a defective mag switch. I had put a brand new switch
in my CJ it soon developed a crazy problem with what appeared to be a mag p
roblem. After months and a couple of thousand dollars I had a ohm meter hoo
k up to the mag switch for tracing another problem and just by accident I c
aught a twitch on the ohm meter.=C2- Found the problem I had been chasing
for months and many dollars. Replaced the new switch with another. Origina
l problem cured. Put an ohm meter on the contacts on the mag switch ( I thi
nk you will have to disconnect to p leads from the mags) and very lightly j
iggle the mag switch lever around when leads connected to #1 then # 2 mag t
erminal on back of switch. And obviously ground ohm meter lead to ground on
the mag switch. Keep everyone away from the prop with the p leads disconne
cted. It could be the problem but at least you will know. It drove me nuts
for a long time just changing the switch fixed the problem. It was a sneaky
devil.=C2- Grrrrrr.=C2- !
=C2- Gary. CJ N22YK
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 22, 2017, at 18:58, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com> wrote:
>
>
> Simple answer, yes.=C2- Mark and Dennis can explain this better than me
. Start by looking at your P leads. Then the wiring back to you mag switch.
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Oct 22, 2017, at 8:44 PM, bmsim <bmsim@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I went for a short flight today after fixing a small fuel leak in the le
ft tank. The leak stopped, flight went great, and I taxied over to the hang
er for shutdown.=C2- Ran up to burn the plugs, pulled power to idle, swit
ched off mags and the engine came to a stop...then turned backwards once. T
he prop stopped straight up and down so I verified mags off and jumped out
to horizontal the prop for tow. I always touch the prop like the mags are h
ot, and sure enough, when I spun it, she caught some fire and spun a blade.
I jumped up in the front, verified mags off, went to the back, mags off, t
ried to pull through a blade again just to see, same result.
>>
>> This happened only once before, a couple of months ago, same exact scena
rio. I ran up, shut her down, she caught a lick backwards, I verified mags
off, propped her, and she fired anyway.
>>
>> My question is, where should I start looking for the issue with her firi
ng with the mags off??
>>
>> Thanks for any help!
>>
>> Brandon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473782#473782
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
Thanks everyone for the replies, I'll get to checking.
CHT, I can't be sure of, but I'm relatively certain was about 120. I understand
from some off-board emails that high CHTs after a flight can cause firing.
Notable that both times that she caught a spark after shutdown were also the only
2 times she stopped then ran backwards a prop or two.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473796#473796
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| Subject: | Re: Program letter and pax |
Who defines what a "proficiency" flight is? Are they not ALL pro flights?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473799#473799
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
The question is whether the P leads are not working correctly, or if there was
some kind of pre-ignition event.
1. Stay away from the prop when running this test, make sure everyone else stays
away from it.
2. Release the clip lock on the back of the P lead plug. Just look at it, hard
to describe but you just pull straight back on it and it swings out of the
way.
3. HOLD THE BACK OF THE P LEAD CONNECTOR WITH ONE HAND! The part BEHIND the knurled
knob part. While holding this, use your OTHER hand to grasp the knurled
knob and screw it off. Then the P lead wire will pull straight out of the MAG.
4. With the MAG SWITCH OFF, use a meter and check the resistance of the P lead
center contact to ground. It should be zero ohms. Straight short to ground.
Now put the P lead back on.
5. Repeat step 3 & 4 with the opposite mag's P lead.
If they both read a short to ground, your mags should be inoperative.
Of course this was also verified when you shut the engine down with the mag switch.
The questions I would ask next would be:
1. What kind of fuel are you using? Car gas per chance?
2. What is the idle RPM on your engine?
3. Is there a chance that the prime pump handle was not vertical and off?
4. Does the engine feel rich at idle? Have you had any plug problems?
Looking for a fuel rich condition, hot CHT, engine not cooled off, idle too high,
all of which would tend to cause a prop reversal.
Dennis can take it from here, or someone else.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2017 9:58 PM
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Mags off, still got fire...
Simple answer, yes. Mark and Dennis can explain this better than me. Start by
looking at your P leads. Then the wiring back to you mag switch.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 22, 2017, at 8:44 PM, bmsim <bmsim@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I went for a short flight today after fixing a small fuel leak in the left tank.
The leak stopped, flight went great, and I taxied over to the hanger for shutdown.
Ran up to burn the plugs, pulled power to idle, switched off mags and
the engine came to a stop...then turned backwards once. The prop stopped straight
up and down so I verified mags off and jumped out to horizontal the prop
for tow. I always touch the prop like the mags are hot, and sure enough, when
I spun it, she caught some fire and spun a blade. I jumped up in the front, verified
mags off, went to the back, mags off, tried to pull through a blade again
just to see, same result.
>
> This happened only once before, a couple of months ago, same exact scenario.
I ran up, shut her down, she caught a lick backwards, I verified mags off, propped
her, and she fired anyway.
>
> My question is, where should I start looking for the issue with her firing with
the mags off??
>
> Thanks for any help!
>
> Brandon
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473782#473782
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
I doubt it was a spark, although it could have a hot piece of carbon, etc.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bmsim
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 9:36 AM
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Re: Mags off, still got fire...
Thanks everyone for the replies, I'll get to checking.
CHT, I can't be sure of, but I'm relatively certain was about 120. I understand
from some off-board emails that high CHTs after a flight can cause firing.
Notable that both times that she caught a spark after shutdown were also the only
2 times she stopped then ran backwards a prop or two.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473796#473796
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
Mark-
You are right! This was a "compression fire" event. Hot carbon? Maybe.
That causes engine "run on" in an old car.
Loaded with fuel, these engines can sometimes fire with the mags grounded.
John B
On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> I doubt it was a spark, although it could have a hot piece of carbon, etc.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@
> matronics.com] On Behalf Of bmsim
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 9:36 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Re: Mags off, still got fire...
>
>
> Thanks everyone for the replies, I'll get to checking.
>
> CHT, I can't be sure of, but I'm relatively certain was about 120. I
> understand from some off-board emails that high CHTs after a flight can
> cause firing.
>
> Notable that both times that she caught a spark after shutdown were also
> the only 2 times she stopped then ran backwards a prop or two.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473796#473796
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Program letter and pax |
You might want to read what the purpose of the Experimental Exhibition category
was meant for. It is defined not only in FAA regs, but also in another sort
of way when you read your Operating Limitations. In short, they are meant to
be used for display of the aircraft and the aircraft capabilities to the general
public. This is why you are required to turn in your "Program Letter" every
year defining what events you intent (but are not required to) attend.
Proficiency flights are meant to keep the pilot proficient in the make and model.
Simple as that.
Flying to an event, participating in an event, etc., is NOT a proficiency flight.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HawkerPilot2015
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 10:52 AM
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Re: Program letter and pax
Who defines what a "proficiency" flight is? Are they not ALL pro flights?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473799#473799
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Program letter and pax |
Download and review the FAAs bible used to write your Operating Limitations. Google
FAA Order 8130.2J (current version) and search the Order for proficiency.
Also Experimental Exhibition. And finally Passenger. You should find all
the answers to you questions.
Dennis
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 4:35 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
wrote:
>
> You might want to read what the purpose of the Experimental Exhibition category
was meant for. It is defined not only in FAA regs, but also in another sort
of way when you read your Operating Limitations. In short, they are meant
to be used for display of the aircraft and the aircraft capabilities to the general
public. This is why you are required to turn in your "Program Letter"
every year defining what events you intent (but are not required to) attend.
>
> Proficiency flights are meant to keep the pilot proficient in the make and model.
Simple as that.
>
> Flying to an event, participating in an event, etc., is NOT a proficiency flight.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HawkerPilot2015
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 10:52 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Re: Program letter and pax
>
>
> Who defines what a "proficiency" flight is? Are they not ALL pro flights?
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473799#473799
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Program letter and pax |
You do
Richard Hess
C 404-964-4885
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 9:52 AM, HawkerPilot2015 <timsmiscaz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Who defines what a "proficiency" flight is? Are they not ALL pro flights?
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473799#473799
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Program letter and pax |
>From the FAA:
Review Application. Verify the application, including the program letter, demonstrates
eligibility for the requested experimental purpose of exhibition. This
purpose includes exhibiting the aircrafts flight capabilities, performance, or
unusual characteristics at air shows, fly-ins, and similar events; for motion
picture, television, and similar productions; and for the maintenance of exhibition
flight proficiency, including (for persons exhibiting aircraft) flying
to and from such events and productions.
mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m wrote:
>
>
> Proficiency flights are meant to keep the pilot proficient in the make and model.
Simple as that.
>
> Flying to an event, participating in an event, etc., is NOT a proficiency flight.
>
> Mark
>
>
> --
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473826#473826
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Program letter and pax |
Interesting article on currency -vs- proficiency.
https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/active-pilots/safety-and-technique/currency-vs-proficiency
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473827#473827
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Program letter and pax |
Download and review the FAA=99s =9Cbible=9D used to write
your Operating Limitations.=C2- Google FAA Order 8130.2J (current versio
n) and search the Order for =9Cproficiency=9D.=C2- =C2- Als
o =9CExperimental Exhibition=9D.=C2- And finally =9CPas
senger=9D. You should find all the answers to you questions.
Dennis
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 4:35 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitt
erlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
> You might want to read what the purpose of the Experimental Exhibition ca
tegory was meant for.=C2- It is defined not only in FAA regs, but also in
another sort of way when you read your Operating Limitations.=C2- In sho
rt, they are meant to be used for display of the aircraft and the aircraft
=C2- capabilities to the general public.=C2- This is why you are requir
ed to turn in your "Program Letter" every year defining what events you int
ent (but are not required to) attend.=C2-
>
> Proficiency flights are meant to keep the pilot proficient in the make an
d model.=C2- Simple as that.=C2-
>
> Flying to an event, participating in an event, etc., is NOT a proficiency
flight.=C2-
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of HawkerPilot2015
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 10:52 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Re: Program letter and pax
>
>
> Who defines what a "proficiency" flight is? Are they not ALL pro flights?
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473799#473799
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Mags off, still got fire... |
There is something in the M14P starting checklist that says don't touch the
prop until the CHT is <85 deg C.
Implying that carbon hot spots can trigger combustion if CHT is >85 deg C.
Regards
Royden
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bmsim
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2017 6:44 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Mags off, still got fire...
I went for a short flight today after fixing a small fuel leak in the left
tank. The leak stopped, flight went great, and I taxied over to the hanger
for shutdown. Ran up to burn the plugs, pulled power to idle, switched off
mags and the engine came to a stop...then turned backwards once. The prop
stopped straight up and down so I verified mags off and jumped out to
horizontal the prop for tow. I always touch the prop like the mags are hot,
and sure enough, when I spun it, she caught some fire and spun a blade. I
jumped up in the front, verified mags off, went to the back, mags off, tried
to pull through a blade again just to see, same result.
This happened only once before, a couple of months ago, same exact scenario.
I ran up, shut her down, she caught a lick backwards, I verified mags off,
propped her, and she fired anyway.
My question is, where should I start looking for the issue with her firing
with the mags off??
Thanks for any help!
Brandon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473782#473782
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