Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:18 AM - Yak 52 weight and balance after avionics removal (fishface68)
2. 11:20 AM - Re: Mags off, still got fire... (bmsim)
3. 11:25 AM - [Non-DoD Source] Re: Mags off, still got fire... (bmsim)
4. 12:28 PM - Re: Re: Mags off, still got fire... (A. Dennis Savarese)
5. 01:43 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Mags off, still got fire... (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
6. 02:08 PM - Re: Mags off, still got fire... (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
7. 03:19 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Mags off, still got fire... (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
8. 05:07 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Mags off, still got fire... (A. Dennis Savarese)
9. 10:47 PM - Re: Yak 52 weight and balance after avionics removal (Looigi)
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| Subject: | Yak 52 weight and balance after avionics removal |
Hi All,
To comply with the EASA requirement to steal our VHF bandwidth, here in
europe and to sell it to mobile phone companies at a huge profit, I am in the
process of organising the fitting an 8.33 KHz radio to my Yak 52.
My question relates to the removal of the Comm radio, ADF kit and associated hardware
from the avionics bay and the effect of the weight and balance. Has anyone
out their done this and what effect does it have on the weight and balance?
Many thanks
Regards Pat
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473840#473840
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| Subject: | Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
Yes, I believe this is the consensus as to the reasoning.
My question for the group, and pardon it being an uneducated one, is this - other
birds like my Cessna kill the engine by shutting off fuel and letting it die,
then switching off the mags. In the Yak, we shut off the mags to kill the engine,
leaving fuel in it. This isn't an issue, unless like me you have to push
it back into the hanger with the towbar. In cases where the prop stops at vertical,
it needs to be shifted out of the way to fit the towbar, but you can't
until it cools. My question is, should I kill it with the fire valve to eliminate
this issue, or keep killing it with the mag switch?
Since I'm asking, what is the reason the engine is killed with the mags and not
the fuel shut off in the first place?
One other question now that I think about it. Her prior owner told me that even
when landing to take on fuel, if she sat longer than about 10 minutes he would
go ahead and pull her through 12 blades just as a precaution. Wouldn't that
be inadvisable (unless engine temps had come down enough during the sitting phase).
So I guess either fuel fast with the cowl flaps closed to hold in heat,
or open the flaps to let the engine cool, and take your time fueling because
it'll be a bit before you could pull her through????
Thanks in advance for any replies.
heaysr(at)telus.net wrote:
> There is something in the M14P starting checklist that says don't touch the
> prop until the CHT is 85 deg C.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Royden
>
> --
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473841#473841
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| Subject: | Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
I'd have to agree on this being a compression fire event, especially from all the
off-board reading and conversing I've been doing. I'm definitely going to
check the mags, but the engine was hot, and shutting off the mags killed it, so
likely it just fired under compression. At least I know what NOT do to now.
Engine temp, not certain, but "in the green," so hot.
I'd have to check the idle RPM.
Running on Avgas.
She doesn't tend to run rich or foul out.
Thanks for the replies!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473842#473842
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| Subject: | Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
"Since I'm asking, what is the reason the engine is killed with the mags an
d not the fuel shut off in the first place?"=C2-
Although I can only speculate the exact reason, the fuel shut off in the Ce
ssna is through the mixture control and thus, directly at the carburetor.
=C2- On the Yak and CJ, the fuel shut off is at the fuel strainer from wh
ich fuel flows into the fuel pump. It's not a mixture control fuel shut off
.=C2- ie: we are not starving the carburetor of fuel on the Yak or CJ wit
h the fuel cut off (actually it is a fire control shut off).=C2- In the e
vent of fire, when you pull the fuel shut off, you are shutting ALL fuel of
f from the firewall forward.=C2- On your Cessna, you can turn the fuel of
f with the fuel selector, which in essence would be the same thing.Dennis
From: bmsim <bmsim@hotmail.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 2:21 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Mags off, still got fire...
Yes, I believe this is the consensus as to the reasoning.
My question for the group, and pardon it being an uneducated one, is this -
other birds like my Cessna kill the engine by shutting off fuel and lettin
g it die, then switching off the mags. In the Yak, we shut off the mags to
kill the engine, leaving fuel in it.=C2- This isn't an issue, unless like
me you have to push it back into the hanger with the towbar. In cases wher
e the prop stops at vertical, it needs to be shifted out of the way to fit
the towbar, but you can't until it cools.=C2- My question is, should I ki
ll it with the fire valve to eliminate this issue, or keep killing it with
the mag switch?
Since I'm asking, what is the reason the engine is killed with the mags and
not the fuel shut off in the first place?
One other question now that I think about it. Her prior owner told me that
even when landing to take on fuel, if she sat longer than about 10 minutes
he would go ahead and pull her through 12 blades just as a precaution. Woul
dn't that be inadvisable (unless engine temps had come down enough during t
he sitting phase).=C2- So I guess either fuel fast with the cowl flaps cl
osed to hold in heat, or open the flaps to let the engine cool, and take yo
ur time fueling because it'll be a bit before you could pull her through???
?
Thanks in advance for any replies.
heaysr(at)telus.net wrote:
> There is something in the M14P starting checklist that says don't touch t
he
> prop until the CHT is 85 deg C.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Royden
>
> --
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473841#473841
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
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| Subject: | Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
Replies to your questions embedded. These represent my personal opinions based
on operating these engines for about 900 hours. Of course I could be wrong,
but it has worked for me.
>My question for the group, and pardon it being an uneducated one, is this - other
birds like my Cessna kill the engine by shutting off fuel and letting it die,
then switching off the mags. In the Yak, we shut off the mags to kill the
engine, leaving fuel in it. This isn't an issue, unless like me you have to push
it back into the hanger with the towbar. In cases where the prop stops at
vertical, it needs to be shifted out of the way to fit the towbar, but you can't
until it cools. My question is, should I kill it with the fire valve to eliminate
this issue, or keep killing it with the mag switch?
I would say that would be a very bad idea.
>Since I'm asking, what is the reason the engine is killed with the mags and not
the fuel shut off in the first place?
First understand that at idle RPM it can run a pretty good long time before it
quits by using the EMERGENCY FUEL SHUTOFF valve. Realize that if you were to
adopt this method, you have now become a test pilot. You are ignoring published
engine operating procedures written by the manufacturer. As such, the blunt
truth is that if something were to go wrong using this procedure, it would be
on you. That minor fact aside, when you run the engine out of fuel first you
are now exposing parts that are normally immersed in fuel, to air. How many
diaphragms in the carb are impacted by this? I honestly have no idea. Will
the emergency fuel shut-off develop a leak after continual use, since it was
never really designed for that purpose, and then leak fuel in the engine compartment
that you might not even notice? It's possible. That said, it is your
aircraft. But expect a few minutes of run time at idle before it stops running.
Lastly this is a radial engine built in Russia. You really can't compare
it to an opposed engine built here and ask why there are different procedures.
Answer? They are totally different engine designs.
>One other question now that I think about it. Her prior owner told me that even
when landing to take on fuel, if she sat longer than about 10 minutes he would
go ahead and pull her through 12 blades just as a precaution. Wouldn't that
be inadvisable (unless engine temps had come down enough during the sitting phase).
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you fail to pull it through, you have
a strong potential for a hydraulic lock. Now you're talking really serious
engine damage. ALWAYS PULL THE ENGINE THROUGH.
> So I guess either fuel fast with the cowl flaps closed to hold in heat, or open
the flaps to let the engine cool, and take your time fueling because it'll
be a bit before you could pull her through????
Why would you want to try to hold in heat after shutting the engine down? The
idea is to cool it off completely before shutting it down, and that means louvers
open .... way long before you even land. Slowly of course, but cooled off.
The real question to be asking is why your engine is doing what it is doing, on
a regular basis, and other M-14's are NOT. The very first thing you should
do is to have an A&P mechanic that is FAMILIER with this engine family, check
the timing on both mags!
The next thing I would advise (open for discussion by those reading) is to pour
a FULL QUART of Marvel Mystery Oil INTO THE FUEL and run that engine just as
hard as you possibly can. WIDE FREAKING OPEN as long as you do not exceed oil
temps, or CHT temps. Have the prop running 100%, or if this scares you, 99%.
Push the throttle to the firewall and after take-off and once you are in
level flight, pull the throttle back just enough until you see the manifold pressure
start to move down. JUST AS YOU SEE IT MOVE, and then leave it there.
Run it like that until you are out of fuel. Or close to it of course. Cool
it down slowly in flight. Land, fill it up put in another quart of MMO and
do it again.
Two things. You must make sure your timing is correct before doing this. The
reason for MMO and full power is to try and get any LEAD out of the cylinders.
I am ASSUMING you have done a compression check recently and have listened
for any leaks coming out the exhaust pipes of any cylinders?
My input is to do the above and then see if the problem is not cured. Running
these engines too cool and at "let's take it easy on the old girl" RPM is a BIG
MISTAKE. Run the piss out of it, with MMO, and hope to blazes that you blow
the carbon out, because unless your timing is all whacked up, that is the most
likely cause of your whole problem.
Mark
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| Subject: | Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
To fire from compression you have to have enough compression to cause enough heat
to cause detonation. That is called a Diesel Engine.
The compression ratio of this engine with the supercharger not blowing, is in the
high 6:1 ratio. That is very low for a compression event. Also, you have
this issue, and others do not.
Lead/carbon retains heat. It is a prime candidate for causing an engine to do
exactly what yours is doing. It provides the high heat source to act like a GLOW
PLUG in a diesel. It also happens very easily with these exact engines if
they are run at too low an RPM and too cool for too long. I'VE DONE THAT.
The lead comes out of a gaseous mixture and deposits on the exhaust valve itself,
on the seat, and other places. Please talk to a mechanic.
Another little tidbit is that the engine stopping and then suddenly reversing direction
... as yours is doing ...... can cause the accessory drive shaft to twist.
This changes the timing and is a very bad thing. So you don't want your
engine doing this. Ever. At all. So you want to stop it from doing that.
SOON. If your timing is way off when you check it, you have to consider this
may have happened. It is rare because .... most engines don't DO what yours
is doing.
Lastly, it is a habit of a lot of folks that read this list to listen to everyone
and then pick the answer that they really wanted to hear in the first place.
Happens all the time, and I suspect it is human nature, as I've found myself
also wishing for the best, when I suspect it is the worst. To that end, FIND
A REALLY GOOD M-14P MECHANIC AND ASK HIM! Even if you have to pay for it.
I'd recommend Vladimir Yastremski... Russian Master Mechanic etc.
You don't have to agree with something for it to be true. I might be completely
wrong, but I am sure of this: Your engine should not be doing that.
Lastly, not pulling your engine through to get oil out of the cylinders, for any
reason at all......... is less than bright.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bmsim
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 2:25 PM
Subject: Yak-List: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Mags off, still got fire...
I'd have to agree on this being a compression fire event, especially from all the
off-board reading and conversing I've been doing. I'm definitely going to
check the mags, but the engine was hot, and shutting off the mags killed it, so
likely it just fired under compression. At least I know what NOT do to now.
Engine temp, not certain, but "in the green," so hot.
I'd have to check the idle RPM.
Running on Avgas.
She doesn't tend to run rich or foul out.
Thanks for the replies!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473842#473842
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| Subject: | Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
I think you nailed it Dennis. Some pressure carbs do have IDLE CUT-OFF knobs
to kill fuel at the carb. The Russian Pressure Carbs were not built with this
feature. If you shut off the main fuel tank valve, which would be akin to
shutting off the fuel with the EMERGENCY SHUT OFF VALVE in the YAK, you will
run the pump, the lines, and the carb out of fuel.
Once that is completed, let's think about what it is going to take to start it
again. Hmmm. Obviously it can be done, but the procedures as written sure are
not going to work. It'll be a LONG time before you get system pressure.
Plus on a hot engine, you will get the vapor lock from hell. You might start
it on prime, and keep it going long enough to fill everything up again. Maybe.
You try it. I'll watch and take pictures.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 3:25 PM
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: Mags off, still got fire...
"Since I'm asking, what is the reason the engine is killed with the mags and not
the fuel shut off in the first place?"
Although I can only speculate the exact reason, the fuel shut off in the Cessna
is through the mixture control and thus, directly at the carburetor. On the
Yak and CJ, the fuel shut off is at the fuel strainer from which fuel flows into
the fuel pump. It's not a mixture control fuel shut off. ie: we are not starving
the carburetor of fuel on the Yak or CJ with the fuel cut off (actually
it is a fire control shut off). In the event of fire, when you pull the fuel
shut off, you are shutting ALL fuel off from the firewall forward. On your Cessna,
you can turn the fuel off with the fuel selector, which in essence would
be the same thing.
Dennis
________________________________
From: bmsim <bmsim@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 2:21 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Mags off, still got fire...
Yes, I believe this is the consensus as to the reasoning.
My question for the group, and pardon it being an uneducated one, is this - other
birds like my Cessna kill the engine by shutting off fuel and letting it die,
then switching off the mags. In the Yak, we shut off the mags to kill the engine,
leaving fuel in it. This isn't an issue, unless like me you have to push
it back into the hanger with the towbar. In cases where the prop stops at vertical,
it needs to be shifted out of the way to fit the towbar, but you can't
until it cools. My question is, should I kill it with the fire valve to eliminate
this issue, or keep killing it with the mag switch?
Since I'm asking, what is the reason the engine is killed with the mags and not
the fuel shut off in the first place?
One other question now that I think about it. Her prior owner told me that even
when landing to take on fuel, if she sat longer than about 10 minutes he would
go ahead and pull her through 12 blades just as a precaution. Wouldn't that
be inadvisable (unless engine temps had come down enough during the sitting phase).
So I guess either fuel fast with the cowl flaps closed to hold in heat,
or open the flaps to let the engine cool, and take your time fueling because
it'll be a bit before you could pull her through????
Thanks in advance for any replies.
heaysr(at)telus.net wrote:
> There is something in the M14P starting checklist that says don't touch the
> prop until the CHT is 85 deg C.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Royden
>
> --
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473841#473841
http://www.matronics.com/Navigsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
http://forum - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
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http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
Thanks Mark.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 10/24/2017 6:17 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD wrote:
> I think you nailed it Dennis. Some pressure carbs do have IDLE CUT-OFF knobs
to kill fuel at the carb. The Russian Pressure Carbs were not built with
this feature. If you shut off the main fuel tank valve, which would be akin
to shutting off the fuel with the EMERGENCY SHUT OFF VALVE in the YAK, you will
run the pump, the lines, and the carb out of fuel.
>
> Once that is completed, let's think about what it is going to take to start it
again. Hmmm. Obviously it can be done, but the procedures as written sure
are not going to work. It'll be a LONG time before you get system pressure.
Plus on a hot engine, you will get the vapor lock from hell. You might start
it on prime, and keep it going long enough to fill everything up again. Maybe.
You try it. I'll watch and take pictures.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 3:25 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: Mags off, still got fire...
>
> "Since I'm asking, what is the reason the engine is killed with the mags and
not the fuel shut off in the first place?"
>
> Although I can only speculate the exact reason, the fuel shut off in the Cessna
is through the mixture control and thus, directly at the carburetor. On the
Yak and CJ, the fuel shut off is at the fuel strainer from which fuel flows
into the fuel pump. It's not a mixture control fuel shut off. ie: we are not
starving the carburetor of fuel on the Yak or CJ with the fuel cut off (actually
it is a fire control shut off). In the event of fire, when you pull the fuel
shut off, you are shutting ALL fuel off from the firewall forward. On your
Cessna, you can turn the fuel off with the fuel selector, which in essence would
be the same thing.
> Dennis
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: bmsim <bmsim@hotmail.com>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 2:21 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Mags off, still got fire...
>
>
>
>
> Yes, I believe this is the consensus as to the reasoning.
>
>
> My question for the group, and pardon it being an uneducated one, is this - other
birds like my Cessna kill the engine by shutting off fuel and letting it
die, then switching off the mags. In the Yak, we shut off the mags to kill the
engine, leaving fuel in it. This isn't an issue, unless like me you have to
push it back into the hanger with the towbar. In cases where the prop stops at
vertical, it needs to be shifted out of the way to fit the towbar, but you can't
until it cools. My question is, should I kill it with the fire valve to eliminate
this issue, or keep killing it with the mag switch?
>
>
> Since I'm asking, what is the reason the engine is killed with the mags and not
the fuel shut off in the first place?
>
>
> One other question now that I think about it. Her prior owner told me that even
when landing to take on fuel, if she sat longer than about 10 minutes he would
go ahead and pull her through 12 blades just as a precaution. Wouldn't that
be inadvisable (unless engine temps had come down enough during the sitting
phase). So I guess either fuel fast with the cowl flaps closed to hold in heat,
or open the flaps to let the engine cool, and take your time fueling because
it'll be a bit before you could pull her through????
>
>
> Thanks in advance for any replies.
>
>
> heaysr(at)telus.net wrote:
>
>> There is something in the M14P starting checklist that says don't touch the
>> prop until the CHT is 85 deg C.
>> Regards
>> Royden
>> --
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473841#473841
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>
> http://forum - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
> http://wiki.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 weight and balance after avionics removal |
Hi Pat,
Our yak-52 has had the ADF and associated equipment removed. In their place is
an ELT and an altitude encoder (minimal weight). Otherwise he is all standard
with the Russian Baklan radio etc.
Our CofG is right on the forward limit, and anything we put on board (people, fuel
etc) pushes the CofG back. Our empty weight (with oil, air and other essential
flight equipment) is 1007kg.
I hope this helps you dude.
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473853#473853
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