Today's Message Index:
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0. 10:13 AM - Coming Soon - The List of Contributors - Please Make A Contribution Today! (Matt Dralle)
1. 02:45 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Gear up or down....forced landing (Richard Goode)
2. 05:49 AM - Re: Gear up or down....forced landing (JON)
3. 09:03 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Gear up or down....forced landing (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
4. 10:11 AM - Test (KingCJ6@aol.com)
5. 11:19 AM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Gear up or down....forced landing (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
6. 01:43 PM - [Non-DoD Source] Re: Gear up or down....forced landing (HawkerPilot2015)
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| Subject: | Coming Soon - The List of Contributors - Please Make A Contribution |
Today!
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| Subject: | Re: Gear up or down....forced landing |
In a Yak 50 I once had one undercarriage that refused to come down despite everything
I tried. So, realising I would have to either land wheels-up and quite
likely cause a fair bit of damage under the aircraft or with one leg down, I
chose the latter, but of course wanted the propeller (then a Russian two-blade)
to be in the horizontal position. As Mark says, it was extraordinarily difficult
to stop the propeller, and I was only able to do so by putting the aircraft
into a much more vertical position than a conventional stall, and then make
it horizontal on the air-start!
It is worth saying that the only damage was some scuffing to the wingtip and the
aileron on the side where the undercarriage would not extend, since I obviously
had full down aileron to keep that wing in the air for as long as possible.
And, I was overhead an airfield with lots of fuel and time!
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
Sent: 20 November 2017 19:52
Subject: RE: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Gear up or down....forced landing
--> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Shutting the motor down: Well let's think about that for a second. Have you
ever shut down the engine in flight and then tried to stop the prop from spinning?
It isn't easy. So in the end, engine at idle, or prop wind-milling, it's
still turning and the prop is still going to smack down and shatter (or bend
in the case of CJ-6's). Best case, you are still looking at engine sudden
stop and tear down more than likely. So while shutting the mags off right before
you crunch is OK I suppose, I really wouldn't look at that saving any real
money, although it might help save a fire somehow or another.
Gear up or down? A decision with a ton variables and ramifications. In the
end, it is the Pilot in Command's call and of course no matter what you do, someone
will say it was wrong.
Landing on roads: Some roads are better than others... plan accordingly.
Slightly off topic, but not much is: When to give up trying to make the engine
develop power when it suddenly stops doing so? The T-34B had a pressure carb,
pretty much the same as ours, although made by Bendix. It also had something
called "Emergency Fuel" where fuel from the electric boost pump was fed directly
to the primer system. You turned it on with the mixture at idle cut-off
and the throttle wide-open. It was full power or nothing, controlled by a
switch, and it actually worked pretty well. The UTVA-66 I own has a GSO-480B1J6,
also with 6 cylinder prime lines. I replaced the primer pump that was much
like what we have, with a Weldon electric fuel pump. I can shut the engine
down with carb fuel cut-off, then turn on the electric pump, hit the prime switch
and the engine will run.. .and develop power. So it is kind of a copy
from the T-34B, but it works, and the thing about Pressure Carb's is they can
work really well, right up to the point where they s!
top working at ALL. I've often thought that a Weldon (or other good electric
pump) replacing the primer/system pump in our aircraft, where an electric solenoid
valve then allows flow to the primer line might indeed keep the engine running
long enough to get it to a runway. Never felt motivated enough to try
it but it is something to think about if that type of thing floats your boat.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 1:09 PM
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Gear up or down....forced landing
Guys,
Assuming that you are adequately insured there is only one thing to be considered
and that is to walk away from the wreckage with as little trauma (and drama)
as possible. At this point the insurance company owns your aircraft anyway,
as some one smarter than I once said: fly it as far into the wreck as possible.
Putting yourself at risk by trying to save a engine is nonsense. On Thursday
when you about to carve the turkey ask your family what is worth more, you
or your radial?
Happy Thanksgiving!
On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 9:48 AM, JON <jblake207@comcast.net> wrote:
First, I agree with you on the gear staying up on off-field landings especially
with an uncertain surface condition. We have thousands of peanut, soybean and
cotton patches here in "LA" (Lower Alabama) that are normally hard enough that
they might support a gear down landing, but that depends on the recent rains,
famer activity, etc. In other words, I'm most likely going to down a flap
down, gear up and canopy full open landing. I know from experience the flap on
the CJ will support the airframe in such a case, but that was to a hard runway,
so to an unimproved field the flap down is still an unknown.
Next, as for landing on a road, here's my .02 on that... as a former helicopter
driver, we were taught that "All road have wires!" so always keep that in your
mind should you chose to make a road landing. I'm certain you've thought about
the flow of traffic... I was taught to land with traffic regardless of winds
since landing against traffic is a head-on waiting to happen because drivers
aren't looking up nor expecting a windshield full of airplane. Landing with
traffic at least gives you an opportunity to merge...sort of anyway. Other
things to consider about road landings are signs and mail boxes. A friend had
an engine issue in his YAK and had to put it down on a road. Perfect landing
and the roll out was going great until the wingtip caught a mailbox that was
cemented into the ground. That spun the airplane around and ended up in the ditch.
Fortunately no personal injury, but the airplane was hurt... but at that
point who cares, right?
I agree with you on shutting down the engine, but my only hesitation would be
length of runway. Once you shut the engine down and you are a glider, you are
landing, so if you over shoot, which is very likely to happen or you are carrying
too much energy, there is no option to go around and try again.
To close, I suppose I would worry much less about the damage to the airplane,
assuming you are insured, than about bodily injury.
JB
________________________________
From: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz@gmail.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:47:22 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Gear up or down....forced landing
I hear of people landing gear down during a rough field landing. I am curious
what the collective thinks about such a procedure. To me, if I were forced to
land in a field or other "softer" than normal terrain, I would choose gear up
to prevent the airplane flipping over or cartwheeling. Now, if it were hard packed
desert like we have here in AZ and long enough to land on, my choice may
be different. Obviously roads are just unmarked runways!
While I have your attention, lets talk about not being able to get the gear down.
Plenty of videos showing failed gear landings where the engine/s are still
swinging the prop/s. Again, for me, once I KNOW I have the runway made with a
gear up landing, I am shutting down the engine/s. No reason to completely destroy
one or two good motors because of a gear issue. What are running engine/s
doing for you as skid down the runway?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475310#475310 <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475310#475310>
&nbs================
--
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| Subject: | Re: Gear up or down....forced landing |
Doc, FWIW... I always brief that we will only bail out if the aircraft is o
n fire or is uncontrollable.=C2- By bailing out you introduce a whole new
set of emergency variables... JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Kemp" <f16viperdoc@me.com>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 8:08:55 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear up or down....forced landing
After watching this conversation for awhile one question; when do you decid
e to take the silk let down? So the engine quits on this brick with the gli
de ratio of a rock while you have enough altitude to pick a site for an =C2
-off field landing but not enough to make the airport you are basically s
aying you are =C2-going to try save the aircraft. If that is so then why
are you wearing a chute?=C2-
Not me, all my past training says give the aircraft back to the tax payers
in pieces if necessary but save your roses pink. Postal is right from the m
oment that the brick strapped to my becomes an unpowered unsalvagable rock
the canopy is going back and I=99m giving this one back to Cannon.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 20, 2017, at 12:33 PM, Byron Fox < byronmfox@gmail.com > wrote:
The best advice I=99ve received came from =9CPostal.=9D
=9CWhen the engine quits, you no longer own the aircraft. It belongs
to the insurance company.=9D=C2-
Therefore, save your butt and let the airplane be a crash cage. Canopy open
( and hope it stays open), straps tight, helmet visor down, gear up, fuel
off, and, in the immortal words of Bob Hoover, fly the airplane all the way
into the crash.=C2-
Finally, learn about flying the =9Chigh and low key=9D forced l
anding pattern taught by the military.=C2-
Blitz Fox
415-307-2405
On Nov 20, 2017, at 9:56 AM, JON < jblake207@comcast.net > wrote:
<blockquote>
Oops... should read I'm most likely going to land FLAP down a flap down, ge
ar up and canopy full open landing.
----- Original Message -----
From: "JON" < jblake207@comcast.net >
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 11:48:42 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear up or down....forced landing
First, I agree with you on the gear staying up on off-field landings especi
ally with an uncertain surface condition.=C2- We have thousands of peanut
, soybean and cotton patches here in "LA" (Lower Alabama) that are normally
hard enough that they might support a gear down landing, but that depends
on the recent rains, famer activity, etc. In other words, I'm most likely g
oing to down a flap down, gear up and canopy full open landing.=C2- I kno
w from experience the flap on the CJ will support the airframe in such a ca
se, but that was to a hard runway, so to an unimproved field the flap down
is still an unknown.=C2-
=C2-
Next, as for landing on a road, here's my .02 on that... as a former helico
pter driver, we were taught that "All road have wires!" so always keep that
in your mind should you chose to make a road landing.=C2- I'm certain yo
u've thought about the flow of traffic... I was taught to land with traffic
regardless of winds since landing against traffic is a head-on waiting to
happen because drivers aren't looking up nor expecting a windshield full of
airplane.=C2- Landing with traffic at least gives you an opportunity to
merge...sort of anyway.=C2- Other things to consider about road landings
are signs and mail boxes.=C2- A friend had an engine issue in his YAK and
had to put it down on a road.=C2- Perfect landing and the roll out was g
oing great until the wingtip caught a mailbox that was cemented into the gr
ound.=C2- That spun the airplane around and ended up in the ditch.=C2-
Fortunately no personal injury, but the airplane was hurt... but at that po
int who cares, right?
=C2-
I agree with you on shutting down the engine, but my only hesitation would
be length of runway.=C2- Once you shut the engine down and you are a glid
er, you are landing, so if you over shoot, which is very likely to happen o
r you are carrying too much energy, there is no option to go around and try
again.=C2-
=C2-
To close, I suppose I would worry much less about the damage to the airplan
e, assuming you are insured, than about bodily injury.=C2-
=C2-
JB
=C2-
=C2-
----- Original Message -----
From: "HawkerPilot2015" < timsmiscaz@gmail.com >
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:47:22 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Gear up or down....forced landing
I hear of people landing gear down during a rough field landing. I am curio
us what the collective thinks about such a procedure. To me, if I were forc
ed to land in a field or other "softer" than normal terrain, I would choose
gear up to prevent the airplane flipping over or cartwheeling. Now, if it
were hard packed desert like we have here in AZ and long enough to land on,
my choice may be different. Obviously roads are just unmarked runways!
While I have your attention, lets talk about not being able to get the gear
down. Plenty of videos showing failed gear landings where the engine/s are
still swinging the prop/s. Again, for me, once I KNOW I have the runway ma
de with a gear up landing, I am shutting down the engine/s. No reason to co
mpletely destroy one or two good motors because of a gear issue. What are r
unning engine/s doing for you as skid down the runway?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475310#475310
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- &nbs
=================
</blockquote>
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| Subject: | Re: Gear up or down....forced landing |
Doc,
Of course that kind of decision always remains with the pilot, except if someone
else is flying with you, then do you force them to go as well?
Regardless, I believe that these aircraft are built very tough. Proven by the
actual film of a YAK-50 that lost all engine oil and then landed gear up in a
field and the aircraft was actually recovered and rebuilt. YAK-50's are even
more tough and the odds are great that you'll walk away.
The opposite side of that coin is bailing out, your aircraft crashing right through
the roof of a home and killing women / children, or onto a car ,a motel,
a movie theatre, the list goes on. I don't know about anyone else, but I would
have a hard time living with myself if I bailed out of an aircraft simply
because I decided it represented a less injury to myself and the resultant wreck
ended up killing innocent people. Of course there are exceptions to this.
Over nothing but forest, mountains, and other way dangerous stuff, etc.
If staying with the airplane means certain death, then yeah... out you go. Otherwise,
I'm staying with the airplane, for a lot of (what I consider) good reasons.
Always open for debate of course.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 9:09 PM
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Gear up or down....forced landing
After watching this conversation for awhile one question; when do you decide to
take the silk let down? So the engine quits on this brick with the glide ratio
of a rock while you have enough altitude to pick a site for an off field landing
but not enough to make the airport you are basically saying you are going
to try save the aircraft. If that is so then why are you wearing a chute?
Not me, all my past training says give the aircraft back to the tax payers in pieces
if necessary but save your roses pink. Postal is right from the moment that
the brick strapped to my becomes an unpowered unsalvagable rock the canopy
is going back and Im giving this one back to Cannon.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 20, 2017, at 12:33 PM, Byron Fox <byronmfox@gmail.com> wrote:
The best advice Ive received came from Postal.
When the engine quits, you no longer own the aircraft. It belongs to the insurance
company.
Therefore, save your butt and let the airplane be a crash cage. Canopy open (
and hope it stays open), straps tight, helmet visor down, gear up, fuel off, and,
in the immortal words of Bob Hoover, fly the airplane all the way into the
crash.
Finally, learn about flying the high and low key forced landing pattern taught
by the military.
Blitz Fox
415-307-2405
On Nov 20, 2017, at 9:56 AM, JON <jblake207@comcast.net> wrote:
Oops... should read I'm most likely going to land FLAP down a flap down, gear
up and canopy full open landing.
________________________________
From: "JON" <jblake207@comcast.net>
To: "Yak-List" <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 11:48:42 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear up or down....forced landing
First, I agree with you on the gear staying up on off-field landings especially
with an uncertain surface condition. We have thousands of peanut, soybean
and cotton patches here in "LA" (Lower Alabama) that are normally hard enough
that they might support a gear down landing, but that depends on the recent rains,
famer activity, etc. In other words, I'm most likely going to down a flap
down, gear up and canopy full open landing. I know from experience the flap
on the CJ will support the airframe in such a case, but that was to a hard runway,
so to an unimproved field the flap down is still an unknown.
Next, as for landing on a road, here's my .02 on that... as a former helicopter
driver, we were taught that "All road have wires!" so always keep that in your
mind should you chose to make a road landing. I'm certain you've thought
about the flow of traffic... I was taught to land with traffic regardless of winds
since landing against traffic is a head-on waiting to happen because drivers
aren't looking up nor expecting a windshield full of airplane. Landing with
traffic at least gives you an opportunity to merge...sort of anyway. Other
things to consider about road landings are signs and mail boxes. A friend had
an engine issue in his YAK and had to put it down on a road. Perfect landing
and the roll out was going great until the wingtip caught a mailbox that was
cemented into the ground. That spun the airplane around and ended up in the
ditch. Fortunately no personal injury, but the airplane was hurt... but at that
point who cares, right?
I agree with you on shutting down the engine, but my only hesitation would be
length of runway. Once you shut the engine down and you are a glider, you are
landing, so if you over shoot, which is very likely to happen or you are carrying
too much energy, there is no option to go around and try again.
To close, I suppose I would worry much less about the damage to the airplane,
assuming you are insured, than about bodily injury.
JB
________________________________
From: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz@gmail.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:47:22 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Gear up or down....forced landing
I hear of people landing gear down during a rough field landing. I am curious
what the collective thinks about such a procedure. To me, if I were forced to
land in a field or other "softer" than normal terrain, I would choose gear up
to prevent the airplane flipping over or cartwheeling. Now, if it were hard packed
desert like we have here in AZ and long enough to land on, my choice may
be different. Obviously roads are just unmarked runways!
While I have your attention, lets talk about not being able to get the gear down.
Plenty of videos showing failed gear landings where the engine/s are still
swinging the prop/s. Again, for me, once I KNOW I have the runway made with
a gear up landing, I am shutting down the engine/s. No reason to completely destroy
one or two good motors because of a gear issue. What are running engine/s
doing for you as skid down the runway?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475310#475310
&nbs================
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| Subject: | Re: Gear up or down....forced landing |
Good advice. Guess how I found out how hard it was to get the prop to stop turning?
Not only is it good practice, it is also a lot of fun. Go up to 10,000
feet or so, cool off the engine slowly, and eventually when at idle, kill
the mags. Then try stopping the prop. You're going to have to get the airplane
right into the stall and hold it there to get it to stop rotating. Then
open the canopy, take off your headset and you're an honest to goodness glider.
It's a very interesting experience. I've done this at the towered airport
in New Bern, N.C. a number of times, and they were more than glad to give permission
for a spiral descent to a high key. Of course this is a 7000 foot runway.
Another food for thought item is getting some solid aerobatic training. Aerobatics
is all about energy management. So is landing without an engine.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Kelley
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:41 PM
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Gear up or down....forced landing
Now thats just stupid. Each and every situation will be different. The only thing
you can rely on is good training, airmanship, and always a little luck. When
was the last time any of you have practiced a slip. What is the VVI saying when
the engine quits whit the prop not pulled back. What is it when the prop is
pulled back. What about with gear and flaps. Have any of you turned the motor
off 10,000 ft above the airport and seen what happens. I bet all of us could
use a little practice. Just food for thought.
Thug
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 20, 2017, at 8:08 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc@me.com> wrote:
After watching this conversation for awhile one question; when do you decide to
take the silk let down? So the engine quits on this brick with the glide ratio
of a rock while you have enough altitude to pick a site for an off field landing
but not enough to make the airport you are basically saying you are going
to try save the aircraft. If that is so then why are you wearing a chute?
Not me, all my past training says give the aircraft back to the tax payers in
pieces if necessary but save your roses pink. Postal is right from the moment
that the brick strapped to my becomes an unpowered unsalvagable rock the canopy
is going back and Im giving this one back to Cannon.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 20, 2017, at 12:33 PM, Byron Fox <byronmfox@gmail.com> wrote:
The best advice Ive received came from Postal.
When the engine quits, you no longer own the aircraft. It belongs to the insurance
company.
Therefore, save your butt and let the airplane be a crash cage. Canopy open (
and hope it stays open), straps tight, helmet visor down, gear up, fuel off,
and, in the immortal words of Bob Hoover, fly the airplane all the way into the
crash.
Finally, learn about flying the high and low key forced landing pattern taught
by the military.
Blitz Fox
415-307-2405
On Nov 20, 2017, at 9:56 AM, JON <jblake207@comcast.net> wrote:
Oops... should read I'm most likely going to land FLAP down a flap down, gear
up and canopy full open landing.
________________________________
From: "JON" <jblake207@comcast.net>
To: "Yak-List" <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 11:48:42 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Gear up or down....forced landing
First, I agree with you on the gear staying up on off-field landings especially
with an uncertain surface condition. We have thousands of peanut, soybean
and cotton patches here in "LA" (Lower Alabama) that are normally hard enough
that they might support a gear down landing, but that depends on the recent rains,
famer activity, etc. In other words, I'm most likely going to down a flap
down, gear up and canopy full open landing. I know from experience the flap
on the CJ will support the airframe in such a case, but that was to a hard runway,
so to an unimproved field the flap down is still an unknown.
Next, as for landing on a road, here's my .02 on that... as a former helicopter
driver, we were taught that "All road have wires!" so always keep that in
your mind should you chose to make a road landing. I'm certain you've thought
about the flow of traffic... I was taught to land with traffic regardless of
winds since landing against traffic is a head-on waiting to happen because drivers
aren't looking up nor expecting a windshield full of airplane. Landing with
traffic at least gives you an opportunity to merge...sort of anyway. Other
things to consider about road landings are signs and mail boxes. A friend had
an engine issue in his YAK and had to put it down on a road. Perfect landing
and the roll out was going great until the wingtip caught a mailbox that was
cemented into the ground. That spun the airplane around and ended up in the
ditch. Fortunately no personal injury, but the airplane was hurt... but at that
point who cares, right?
I agree with you on shutting down the engine, but my only hesitation would be
length of runway. Once you shut the engine down and you are a glider, you are
landing, so if you over shoot, which is very likely to happen or you are carrying
too much energy, there is no option to go around and try again.
To close, I suppose I would worry much less about the damage to the airplane,
assuming you are insured, than about bodily injury.
JB
________________________________
From: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz@gmail.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:47:22 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Gear up or down....forced landing
I hear of people landing gear down during a rough field landing. I am curious
what the collective thinks about such a procedure. To me, if I were forced to
land in a field or other "softer" than normal terrain, I would choose gear up
to prevent the airplane flipping over or cartwheeling. Now, if it were hard
packed desert like we have here in AZ and long enough to land on, my choice may
be different. Obviously roads are just unmarked runways!
While I have your attention, lets talk about not being able to get the gear
down. Plenty of videos showing failed gear landings where the engine/s are still
swinging the prop/s. Again, for me, once I KNOW I have the runway made with
a gear up landing, I am shutting down the engine/s. No reason to completely destroy
one or two good motors because of a gear issue. What are running engine/s
doing for you as skid down the runway?
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&nbs================
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| Subject: | Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Gear up or down....forced landing |
I am not jumping out...I am afraid of heights!
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