Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:04 AM - Re: Booster Coil needed please (Chris & Diane Burton)
2. 07:52 AM - Re: Re: ADS-B out in a CJ6... (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
3. 07:56 AM - Re: Booster Coil needed please (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
4. 02:57 PM - CJ abeam, flap up/down (Richard Romaine)
5. 03:29 PM - Re: CJ abeam, flap up/down (Jon Boede)
6. 04:08 PM - Re: CJ abeam, flap up/down (doug sapp)
7. 04:13 PM - Re: CJ abeam, flap up/down (Justin Drafts)
8. 07:53 PM - Re: CJ abeam, flap up/down (dabear@damned.org)
9. 08:03 PM - Re: CJ abeam, flap up/down (Sam Sax)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Booster Coil needed please |
Hi Mark,
I pulled it out and had a look inside. It had burnt the points out completely.
I replaced the points with a serviceable set from the old one, rigged up an
automotive spark plug and lead and bunged 24v into it. The thing just arced
across the points with very little output to the plug, so I think it has had a
major internal melt down.
I have managed to source some through a friend in Murmansk so hopefully that will
fix the issue.
I think the high resistance I found across half of my spark plugs are the cause.
I am going to put Dougs automotive kit in so hopefully it wont happen again.
Thoughts
Chris
> On 19/06/2018, at 5:36 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
wrote:
>
> You might consider removing it from the aircraft and testing it on the bench.
It's hard to grasp why it would fail in 35 hours. Although it is easy to imagine
that power to the unit, or a bad wire to the mag could happen. These puppy
dogs are also adjustable for the gap in the points inside.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Looigi
> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2018 1:15 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Booster Coil needed please
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> Does anyone have a KP-4716 or DH-2 Booster (shower of sparks) coil they wish
to part with please? Doug is out of stock.
>
> The one in our Yak-52 has died after only 35 hours in use.
>
> Many thanks
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480965#480965
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: ADS-B out in a CJ6... |
Comments:
Yes, you need a laptop or some kind of computer to program the GDL82. Anything
that has a USB port will work. The software is free, and it is simple. If you
put in your N number, it automatically looks up the proper code to program
the unit. All ADS-B out units require programming. Some allow it by pushing
buttons on the front panel in "programming mode", some (as you mentioned) with
a Smart Phone. By having a computer connected to the Internet, this task is
actually simplified. So it is a matter of perspective. Using a computer with
internet actually is a plus, and not a minus. Just another matter of perspective.
No, there really is not a lot of coax to add with a GDL82, and I'm kind of lost
as to why you might think so. The unit goes between your existing transponder
and your existing transponder antenna. There should already be coax there.
It is true that you might have to add a short jumper as in my case about 12 inches.
Again, if you have old crap in the airplane, it makes no sense to use
a GDL82 or any UAT for that matter. Buy a totally new ES transponder, put in
totally new coax, and a totally new antenna. In any case, the GDL82 uses an
internal diplexer, and thus your one existing transponder antenna is used for
1030/1090 and 978 Mhz. That's not the case with the SkyFy-EXT, where you are
adding a totally new 978 antenna and coax. Soooo..... maybe I am missing your
point here?
A word about "sniffing" out the code your transponder is transmitting, meaning
your mode 3A and C outputs. There is a requirement for a ADS-B Out transmission
every second. That works out great as long as a ground radar is interrogating
your transponder and you have the UAT system. But what if it is not, meaning
what if you are out of range of ground based interrogation RADARS? You still
have to send a ADS-B Out transmission. If you are using a complete 1030/1090
ES transponder, this is a piece of cake, because the unit already knows your
squawk and also your Mode C Pressure Altitude. The UAT systems don't have
that info and have to get it. If the aircraft transponder is not transmitting,
the GDL82 actually interrogates the transponder itself, making it transmit,
and then "sniffs" out the necessary data. This means that UAT systems "sniff"
out, or in reality the proper description is: Interrogate the transponder, and
read the reply. But the interesting thing here is to realize that the Universal
Access Systems have to either figure out a way to interrogate the existing
transponder, or just use the last code they got when it transmitted. One of
the thoughts that goes through my mind is what happens when you are parked right
next to another aircraft? Could any of these remotely mounted systems (wing-tip
mounts, etc.) "sniff out" the Mode 3 code of the aircraft sitting right
next to them and then send the wrong data? There is no way to discriminate
or differentiate your transponder, from another one sitting 15 feet away. The
only way to prevent this is to base what you "sniff" based on how strong the
signal is to begin with. With the GDL82 connected directly to the transmit coax
itself, this is easy. But try to do with a remote system, and I can see where
it might get fooled. Time will tell, and there is not a lot of feedback from
current users of these systems.
The Uavionics group is a start-up company and they have some really ingenious and
brilliant engineers in my opinion. The dead simplicity of their designs (regarding
install, etc.) are very attractive. Programming via Smart Phone is leading
edge, and just replacing wing tip lights makes it very simple. To me it
remains very tempting, and it is a good product that needs a good review. Hope
you will do that after you install it. Different people have different requirements.
Mine are technically based more than anything else, but I have this
nagging feeling that no matter what choice I make, I am going to feel I could
have made a better one down the road!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Pennington
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 5:24 PM
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: ADS-B out in a CJ6...
ADSB-out
So I have been looking at this in depth for about 3 weeks. I fly a CJ and love
it.
The garmin GDL82 is a good unit, but reading online some of the folks don't like
the fact you have to use a computer with Garmin software to configure. And
there is a lot of coax to install comparably.
Uavionics has the beacon wing tip light solution and it does fit on the CJ nicely,
it how ever does not have the clear position light on the rear of the light
to make the Yak guys happy ( based on a conversation with Dennis.)
A couple of things with the beacon units. They do come with a strobe add on so
you can have LED position light and a strobe in one unit. Yes it would take
a separate switched wire for the strobe as you would guess. Yes the NAV light
would be on all the time for ADSB out. So running a second wire for the NAV
light is not needed if you think you can power the ADSB portion with out a NAV
light. On is on, you have a light and ADSB out. Also if you do just the
one light for 1400.00 you are flying with a red LED light on the one wing and
what every you have on the other. For a total of 2100.00 you can have a second
matching unit on the right side and you get ADSB in. That gives you weather
and traffic from the green light. ADSB out of the red light. This unit gets
altitude info from "sniffing" your mode C and using the info as needed.
Uavionics has another solution if you like your NAV and strobe lights like I do.
It is the SkyFy-EXT. This is a two part system with small parts. One is a what
looks like a Garmin WAAS antenna like all of the white plastic you have seen,
that takes power and ground, it has a grey wire that ties in to the second piece
called a Echouat which also takes power and ground. The grey wire is GPS
position information shared with the Echouat from the GPS receiver antenna The
echouat unit has an antenna connection and it ties to a 978 mhz antenna on
the bottom of the airplane and this is also supplied in the kit. The belly antenna
sends the ADSB out info and also receives traffic and weather in. This
unit also "sniffs" your mode C transponder for altitude information. This unit
is 1400 and you get ADSB out and weather and traffic in.
The nice thing about the Uavionics units is they are configured using a smart phone
app. Both units produce a WIFI signal that is compatible with fore flight
etc. It can also be monitored in flight using the app to check and see what
is being transmitted in terms of altitude etc. You can also change the configuration
in flight with your smart phone if need be. Based on the App you could
check your encoder anytime you wanted to confirm accuracy along with what you
are squawking.
You can set the unit to go anonymous when you squawk VFR. In the event you squawk
something else based on ATC, it then sends out your tail number etc. as expected,
when you switch back to 1200 you go anonymous again.
Everyone is different and I am leaning to using the SkyFy-Ext system. I have a
good mode C transponder and alt encoder that was checked out and found to be
healthy.
You can call Kurt or Ryan they are both super helpful and knowledgeable about these
systems. When you call just push 3 and it will connect you to these guys.
The number is 844 827 2372
The web site is https://www.uavionix.com/ at the top of the menu is General Aviation and you can see the SkyFy-Ext and the Beacon systems.
Hope this helps
Mark Pennington
N621CJ
On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 4:28 PM, JON BLAKE <jblake207@comcast.net <mailto:jblake207@comcast.net> > wrote:
Since I changed to LED, my position lights stay on all the time anyway...
On June 19, 2018 at 3:03 PM "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net <mailto:dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> > wrote:
You're right. The nav lights would have to be on (no big deal in my mind) or
as you say, you'd have to run another wire out to the wing tip.
Dennis
________________________________
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> >
To: "yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com> " <yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: ADS-B out in a CJ6...
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> ] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 2:58 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: ADS-B out in a CJ6...
Check out the installation of the UAvionics Skybeacon. This is a December 2017
article.
https://www.flyingmag.com/skybeacon-installation-review <https://www.flyingmag.com/skybeacon-installation-review>
For those who are interested in the Skybeacon, the certified version should be
available by Airventure, according the UAvionics. $1895 for the certified version.
I'm on the list to receive one as soon as the certified version is released.
Here's the installation instructions. An unbelievable 2 pages for an ADS-B Out
solution.
http://uavionix.com/downloads/skybeacon/skyBeacon-User-Manual.pdf <http://uavionix.com/downloads/skybeacon/skyBeacon-User-Manual.pdf>
Dennis
________________________________
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> >
To: "yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com> " <yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: ADS-B out in a CJ6...
This is a topic I've also been thinking about for quite some time. I have to
disagree (just slightly because I am a known nit-picker) that all it requires
is two wires, power and ground. Typically when you add an altitude encoder,
you wire it using grey code wiring, and that is rather a slew of wires to be
accurate about it. If you go this route, I highly suggest a Sandia encoder.
They last a LONG time compared to say an ACK-30. So now (using list prices as
reference) you are looking at a lot of money. That being said, I think it is
the coolest way to go, and in the end it minimizes work, especially if you have
someone else build the cable interfacing it to the Encoder! It also is good
above 18,000 feet and into other countries.
That being said, you now have one unit with a WAAS GPS, a built in Mode 3A transponder,
with Extended Squitter added to handle ADS-B out requirements, a Mode-C
altitude interface (for the external Encoder). Other than the Encoder, it
is an all in one unit. Here's the rub. That's a lot of stuff in one box.
If *ANY* of it goes bad, you are looking at having to pull the unit, and when
you do, you lose every darn thing. So the ADS-B extended squitter goes bad, out
comes the box. The WAAS GPS goes bad, out the whole thing comes. Etc. etc.
I'm not so sure I like that. But in reality the answer is going to be just
how reliable this unit is, and we don't know that yet. What we DO know is that
there is a lot of additional stuff in that one box that CAN go bad! In addition,
you are going to have to re-certify the transponder and altitude encoder
at an Avionics Shop. That two year certification goes away if you are installing
all new gear, so now you are looking at that cos!
t as well.
Here's the alternative. The Garmin GDL-82 Universal Access Transceiver. This
is really only an option if you already have a decent Transponder and Altitude
Encoder installed already and they are reliable and working just fine. I'd
advise testing them to make sure! When you go this route, you will be transmitting
on 978 Mhz. This "box" really does have very few wires to interface.
It has a USB connector to program it (four wires), power & ground, plus a wire
for Anonymous Mode, and a wire for a failure light (optional). The existing
transponder antenna hooks to it, a GPS antenna, and a short RF jumper from Transponder
antenna out, to the GDL-82. How does it work? It will actually send
(depending) an interrogation to your transponder on occasion and "read" the mode
3A code you have put in there, along with your reported pressure altitude
sent out by the transponder, as the transponder read from the existing altitude
encoder. It basically "pulls" the information it ne!
eds from an actual transponder transmission your existing equipment is already
doing. The existing transponder transmission goes right through the 82, and
out to the antenna with about 0.5 dB of loss. It (the GDL-82) then makes its
own transmission (about 40 watts) on 978 MHz to meet the ADS-B out requirement.
So the GDL-82 has the ADS-B Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) transmitter inside,
plus a WAAS GPS (if you want it and don't already have one). If it goes
bad, you still have your transponder working with Mode 3A (four numbers) plus
Mode 3C Altitude transmission. If the transponder goes bad, and you have to
pull it, the GDL-82 will actually still make partial transmissions, although that
is not an FAA recognized sub mode. The bottom line to that is that it will
still "wake up" the ground UAT stations, so that you will continue to get uninterrupted
ADSB-IN. That is WAY cool. So you have the ability to not lose EVERYTHING
if just one thing goes bad. Down side, it will not work with a transponder
that already has Mode-S. It cannot be used above 18,000 feet, and it
is not yet recognized in many countries.
One more big plus. It has Anonymous Mode. Flip this switch, and anytime your
transponder is set to VFR 1200 code, it does not send out your "N" number or
your special recognition code. It still meets ADS-B out requirements, but the
FAA really can't tell who you are. Keep something else in mind. The FAA says
that if you equip your aircraft with ADS-B out, IT MUST BE TURNED ON ALL THE
TIME! On the ground and in the air. ALL the time! This means that they can
see and track every single thing you do, know who you are, how low you went
and where, etc., etc., etc. Meet Big Brother. I am sorry folks, but having had
experience with the FAA, I do not want them pulling up some data file that
they recorded from my ADS-B out equipment saying I violated "whatever". Even
the best of pilots are capable of making a mistake now and then, and although
this is the new "more friendly FAA" these days, you make up your own mind. I
am going with the GDL-82 because it is cheaper, it doe!
s not require me to do another transponder/encoder check at the shop, I have
a really good Garmin transponder and encoder already, it allows me to continue
to operate in reduced capability if just one part goes bad (I don't like "all
or nothing"), and it has Anonymous Mode, and it is easier to wire in.
This does not mean my way is "right" and someone else's way is "wrong". I am
just happy to have a choice, and am listing the thoughts that went through my
mind in making the decision. The GTX-335 remains a terrific piece of equipment,
and I might eventually get it. But not right away.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> > ] On Behalf Of Greg Wrobel
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 12:46 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com> <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com> >
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: ADS-B out in a CJ6...
Justin.
That's the one I'm leaning towards since I have a new Garmin radio although there
is no connection or usage between the two.
I have a friend that just install his on a Chipmunk and he used two wires. Power
and ground. It comes with GPS Antenna, wiring and rack. I will get the encoder
for $249 that's about the size of a quarter and it snaps into the back of
the rack and connects to transponder when you slide it into tray. The only cable
you need is the connection from xponder to hocky puck antenna and most places
will make it for you (at a cost). I'm mounting my antenna on the rear turtle
deck as opposed to the center one between the cockpits. Of course the 345 had
ADS-B in but it's another $2000. I already have that in my aircraft.
On Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 11:21 AM Justin Drafts <draftsjust417@gmail.com <mailto:draftsjust417@gmail.com> <mailto:draftsjust417@gmail.com <mailto:draftsjust417@gmail.com> > <mailto:draftsjust417@gmail.com <mailto:draftsjust417@gmail.com> <mailto:draftsjust417@gmail.com <mailto:draftsjust417@gmail.com> > > > wrote:
Ladies, gents, and fellow fliers-
As the ADS-B deadline slowly approaches, I'm considering the Garmin GTX-335
system for my Nanchang CJ6.
Have any of you used this system before in a CJ?
Thoughts & advice? Successes? Things to watch out for?
Thanks all-
Justin Drafts
N280NC
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Booster Coil needed please |
I think you nailed it.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris & Diane Burton
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 5:04 AM
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Booster Coil needed please
--> <cdoburton@gmail.com>
Hi Mark,
I pulled it out and had a look inside. It had burnt the points out completely.
I replaced the points with a serviceable set from the old one, rigged up an
automotive spark plug and lead and bunged 24v into it. The thing just arced
across the points with very little output to the plug, so I think it has had a
major internal melt down.
I have managed to source some through a friend in Murmansk so hopefully that will
fix the issue.
I think the high resistance I found across half of my spark plugs are the cause.
I am going to put Dougs automotive kit in so hopefully it wont happen again.
Thoughts
Chris
> On 19/06/2018, at 5:36 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
wrote:
>
> You might consider removing it from the aircraft and testing it on the bench.
It's hard to grasp why it would fail in 35 hours. Although it is easy to imagine
that power to the unit, or a bad wire to the mag could happen. These puppy
dogs are also adjustable for the gap in the points inside.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Looigi
> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2018 1:15 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: Booster Coil needed please
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> Does anyone have a KP-4716 or DH-2 Booster (shower of sparks) coil they wish
to part with please? Doug is out of stock.
>
> The one in our Yak-52 has died after only 35 hours in use.
>
> Many thanks
> Chris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480965#480965
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | CJ abeam, flap up/down |
Realize not everyone on the list does the RPA thing and its been a while since
I have, but wanted to toss out a discussion item on when to advise folks to drop
flap on CJ. I noted a copy of RPA form manual v4.3 online and saw that that
version states that in landing pattern flap should be down at abeam (arrivals,
pg 35)
Ive been advising anyone who asks that CJ flap should remain up until rolling out
on final, runway made.
I cant speak to YAK experience, but CJ flap up to down goes from a very talkative,
forgiving airframe approaching stall to a silent b$&@; that will drop out
from under you with no warning and easily enters secondary stall(s). Other than
habits from old/different airframes (or weve always done it that way, as seen
in a few mishap reports), I cant think of a good reason to risk the overshooting,
distracted CJ newbie being set up for that scenario.
If you have a CJ and disagree, suggest you go out and try a flap down stall and
see if you can predict the stall break and then gage it against what a new guy
might be expected to anticipate.
Ill now go sit in the corner with my crayons...
Cheers,
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
I have a CJ and I agree. Flaps down when rolling onto final during an overhead,
or at the same position (short final) with a longer or more square pattern.
Ive always said the CJ has a Fred Flintstone Flap thats more of an air brake than
a proper flap. Flys much better with it up.
Jon
> On Jun 20, 2018, at 5:18 PM, Richard Romaine <romaine_richard@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Realize not everyone on the list does the RPA thing and its been a while since
I have, but wanted to toss out a discussion item on when to advise folks to
drop flap on CJ. I noted a copy of RPA form manual v4.3 online and saw that that
version states that in landing pattern flap should be down at abeam (arrivals,
pg 35)
>
> Ive been advising anyone who asks that CJ flap should remain up until rolling
out on final, runway made.
>
> I cant speak to YAK experience, but CJ flap up to down goes from a very talkative,
forgiving airframe approaching stall to a silent b$&@; that will drop out
from under you with no warning and easily enters secondary stall(s). Other
than habits from old/different airframes (or weve always done it that way, as
seen in a few mishap reports), I cant think of a good reason to risk the overshooting,
distracted CJ newbie being set up for that scenario.
>
> If you have a CJ and disagree, suggest you go out and try a flap down stall and
see if you can predict the stall break and then gage it against what a new
guy might be expected to anticipate.
>
> Ill now go sit in the corner with my crayons...
>
> Cheers,
> Rich
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
Jon,
Sorry I cannot agree, I watched the late Joe Howse put a pair of small
Styrofoam blocks under the flaps and get out of a pretty short strip. A
"normal" CJ pilot would have been looking for a trucker, but that was Joe,
your mileage may vary. As I recall I think he later installed a sequential
flap valve in his CJ so he could obtain any flap setting he wanted. His
old CJ is still around the PNW I think, maybe with Gary Hagstrom??
Getting back to Rich's point, I would have to say that I agree. During my
engine out I left the flap up until I saw leaves over the leading edge,
then dumped them hoping for a slight boost to get me over the last row of
apple trees--did not happen, it was like you shot it right between the
eyes. Had I been able to lower the flap only 10 to 20 degrees I might have
pulled it off.
Doug
On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have a CJ and I agree. Flaps down when rolling onto final during an
> overhead, or at the same position (=9Cshort final=9D) with a
longer or more
> square pattern.
>
> I=99ve always said the CJ has a =9CFred Flintstone Flap
=9D that=99s more of an air
> brake than a proper flap. Flys much better with it up.
>
> Jon
>
> > On Jun 20, 2018, at 5:18 PM, Richard Romaine <romaine_richard@yahoo.com
>
> wrote:
> >
> romaine_richard@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Realize not everyone on the list does the RPA thing and it=99s be
en a
> while since I have, but wanted to toss out a discussion item on when to
> advise folks to drop flap on CJ. I noted a copy of RPA form manual v4.3
> online and saw that that version states that in landing pattern flap shou
ld
> be down at abeam (arrivals, pg 35)
> >
> > I=99ve been advising anyone who asks that CJ flap should remain u
p until
> rolling out on final, runway made.
> >
> > I can=99t speak to YAK experience, but CJ flap up to down goes fr
om a very
> talkative, forgiving airframe approaching stall to a silent b$&@; that wi
ll
> drop out from under you with no warning and easily enters secondary
> stall(s). Other than habits from old/different airframes (or =9Cwe
=99ve always
> done it that way=9D, as seen in a few mishap reports), I can
=99t think of a
> good reason to risk the overshooting, distracted CJ newbie being set up f
or
> that scenario.
> >
> > If you have a CJ and disagree, suggest you go out and try a flap down
> stall and see if you can predict the stall break and then gage it against
> what a new guy might be expected to anticipate.
> >
> > I=99ll now go sit in the corner with my crayons...
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Rich
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
Personally speaking, I've had consistent, stable success with dropping
flap/barndoor on semi-short final.
I consider it more of a spoiler than the modified airfoil surface that the
term "flap" implies.
But, take this as just 1 novice Red pilot's opinion.
Justin Drafts
N280NC
On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 2:28 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have a CJ and I agree. Flaps down when rolling onto final during an
> overhead, or at the same position (=9Cshort final=9D) with a
longer or more
> square pattern.
>
> I=99ve always said the CJ has a =9CFred Flintstone Flap
=9D that=99s more of an air
> brake than a proper flap. Flys much better with it up.
>
> Jon
>
> > On Jun 20, 2018, at 5:18 PM, Richard Romaine <romaine_richard@yahoo.com
>
> wrote:
> >
> romaine_richard@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Realize not everyone on the list does the RPA thing and it=99s be
en a
> while since I have, but wanted to toss out a discussion item on when to
> advise folks to drop flap on CJ. I noted a copy of RPA form manual v4.3
> online and saw that that version states that in landing pattern flap shou
ld
> be down at abeam (arrivals, pg 35)
> >
> > I=99ve been advising anyone who asks that CJ flap should remain u
p until
> rolling out on final, runway made.
> >
> > I can=99t speak to YAK experience, but CJ flap up to down goes fr
om a very
> talkative, forgiving airframe approaching stall to a silent b$&@; that wi
ll
> drop out from under you with no warning and easily enters secondary
> stall(s). Other than habits from old/different airframes (or =9Cwe
=99ve always
> done it that way=9D, as seen in a few mishap reports), I can
=99t think of a
> good reason to risk the overshooting, distracted CJ newbie being set up f
or
> that scenario.
> >
> > If you have a CJ and disagree, suggest you go out and try a flap down
> stall and see if you can predict the stall break and then gage it against
> what a new guy might be expected to anticipate.
> >
> > I=99ll now go sit in the corner with my crayons...
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Rich
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
So this is my opinion and worth every penny you paid for it...
I didn't see much of an issue with the flap down stall, then again I
think the CJ talks well to the pilot in all areas of the envelope.
After getting comfortable with the CJ I typically did all my landings
from the perch (gear and flaps down) and power off. I figured that if I
could consistently make the landing from there without power, should a
problem occur I'd be ready. Now remember most of this time in the CJ
was with the M14P or M14PF and 3 bladed prop, so there was not much
more glide power off than a greased manhole cover. But it also worked
with the 2 bladed Housai. Where ever possible I flew a high approach to
be able to make the landing power off and then choose to put the gear
and flaps down when appropriate to make the field.
To new CJ pilots, I'll leave the instruction to ... instructors. But I
always found the CJ to do exactly what you told it to do and it talked
to you while doing so.
I don't have my CJ anymore, but I did plenty of stalls (clean and dirty)
and could predict when she would depart. I started flying the Yak-52 at
140 hours TT and the CJ at 440 TT. The CJ is a trainer and I never
found her to have a bad side like the 52 or the T6. Have you checked
your W&B?
Crayons are for Marines, we don't share....
Bear
On 6/20/2018 5:56 PM, Richard Romaine wrote:
>
> Realize not everyone on the list does the RPA thing and its been a while since
I have, but wanted to toss out a discussion item on when to advise folks to
drop flap on CJ. I noted a copy of RPA form manual v4.3 online and saw that that
version states that in landing pattern flap should be down at abeam (arrivals,
pg 35)
>
> Ive been advising anyone who asks that CJ flap should remain up until rolling
out on final, runway made.
>
> I cant speak to YAK experience, but CJ flap up to down goes from a very talkative,
forgiving airframe approaching stall to a silent b$&@; that will drop out
from under you with no warning and easily enters secondary stall(s). Other
than habits from old/different airframes (or weve always done it that way, as
seen in a few mishap reports), I cant think of a good reason to risk the overshooting,
distracted CJ newbie being set up for that scenario.
>
> If you have a CJ and disagree, suggest you go out and try a flap down stall and
see if you can predict the stall break and then gage it against what a new
guy might be expected to anticipate.
>
> Ill now go sit in the corner with my crayons...
>
> Cheers,
> Rich
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | CJ abeam, flap up/down |
Same here, Jon!
An important point to pay attention to when dropping the flaps and rolling into
final during an overhead is to watch for crosswind drift and not tighten the
turn to 'make' the runway...
With gear and flap down in a steep descending turn and low power, stall speed increases
markedly... forward stick pressure to maintain speed and ball in the
center is 'wise'... all the above more critical at higher elevations.
FWIW,
Sam Sax
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
On Behalf Of Jon Boede
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: CJ abeam, flap up/down
I have a CJ and I agree. Flaps down when rolling onto final during an overhead,
or at the same position (short final) with a longer or more square pattern.
Ive always said the CJ has a Fred Flintstone Flap thats more of an air brake than
a proper flap. Flys much better with it up.
Jon
> On Jun 20, 2018, at 5:18 PM, Richard Romaine <romaine_richard@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --> <romaine_richard@yahoo.com>
>
> Realize not everyone on the list does the RPA thing and its been a
> while since I have, but wanted to toss out a discussion item on when
> to advise folks to drop flap on CJ. I noted a copy of RPA form manual
> v4.3 online and saw that that version states that in landing pattern
> flap should be down at abeam (arrivals, pg 35)
>
> Ive been advising anyone who asks that CJ flap should remain up until rolling
out on final, runway made.
>
> I cant speak to YAK experience, but CJ flap up to down goes from a very talkative,
forgiving airframe approaching stall to a silent b$&@; that will drop out
from under you with no warning and easily enters secondary stall(s). Other
than habits from old/different airframes (or weve always done it that way, as
seen in a few mishap reports), I cant think of a good reason to risk the overshooting,
distracted CJ newbie being set up for that scenario.
>
> If you have a CJ and disagree, suggest you go out and try a flap down stall and
see if you can predict the stall break and then gage it against what a new
guy might be expected to anticipate.
>
> Ill now go sit in the corner with my crayons...
>
> Cheers,
> Rich
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
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