Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:16 AM - Yak 55M fuel system (Dan Caldwell)
2. 07:23 AM - Yak 52 consumables list (BTLYak)
3. 07:36 AM - Re: Fuel Imbalance (Re: Yak 52TW Fuel Starvation at near zero G) (John Nolan)
4. 08:38 AM - Re: Oil blurp (Jill Gernetzke)
5. 09:58 AM - Re: Re: Oil blurp (Walter Lannon)
6. 12:38 PM - Housai engine manual needed (NebraskaYak)
7. 12:44 PM - Hangar decorations (NebraskaYak)
8. 12:46 PM - Re: Fuel Imbalance (Re: Yak 52TW Fuel Starvation at near zero G) (Anthony Savarese)
9. 12:48 PM - Re: Housai engine manual needed (Mark Pennington)
10. 12:58 PM - Re: Housai engine manual needed (doug sapp)
11. 02:52 PM - Re: Re: Oil blurp (Bill Culberson)
12. 03:19 PM - YAK 52TW For Sale (mark king)
13. 04:48 PM - Re: Re: Oil blurp (Walter Lannon)
14. 05:38 PM - Brakes 55m. (Steve Geard)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Yak 55M fuel system |
Does anyone have, or know of, a fuel system diagram for the Yak 55M?
Specifically, where the vents are. Is there a separate vent for inverted flight
and one for upright flight?
Do the wing tanks vent separately in to the common vents?
Does the header tank have its own vent?
I have the rough drawing of the fuel system in my manual but it is useless for
tracing where the components are placed.
Thanks,
Dan Caldwell
N55KV
Sent from my iPad
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| Subject: | Yak 52 consumables list |
reaching out to see if anyone has a list of airframe and engine consumables.
Fasteners
O-rings
Crush washers
Etc.
Need to be better prepared for CI this year.
--------
"Battle Yak"
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486824#486824
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Imbalance (Re: Yak 52TW Fuel Starvation at near zero |
G)
Dennis,
Yes, I have them. I didn=99t know that you no longer sell them. What a
re my repair or replace my options if it ever comes to that?
Thanks,
John Nolan
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 7, 2019, at 9:12 PM, Anthony Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
>
> Fuel bladders are no longer available. If you have them, yes they can be i
nstalled in the filler plate.
> Dennis
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jan 7, 2019, at 5:01 PM, John Nolan <johnrobertnolan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dennis,
>>
>> Can these be installed on your aftermarket fuel bladders?
>>
>> John Nolan
>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 6:42 AM A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellso
uth.net> wrote:
>>> FWIW, the single vent system Yak 52's (pre '89) models have a fuel imbal
ance issue as well, especially with full tanks and with the airplane sitting
on the ramp in the sun. The net of it is the vent system gets blocked with
fuel. Particularly the vent line on the right tank because of the design o
f the vent system. As everyone knows, vent lines must be clear of fuel in o
rder for fuel to feed. With a blocked vent line, no fuel can feed from that
tank. That's why we roll the airplane up on one wing and fly straight to f
orce the fuel out of the vent line.
>>>
>>> BUT there is a solution...a second vent to the tank. This can also appl
y to the CJ. Install this vent check valve on the top of the tank and run t
he vent tube overboard. Most likely location is near the fill port so you'l
l have access to the inside of the tank to tighten the nut on the bottom of t
he vent check valve. The vent check valve is used in race cars and should t
he race car were to turn over, the vent check valve would prevent the fuel f
rom leaking out of the tank. With the vent check valve installed, during fl
ight the tank will always have a clear vent line.
>>>
>>> Here is a link to where it can be purchased and also a photo of the vent
check valve installed on the top of a fuel filler plate on a Yak 52 fuel bl
adder. One is required for each fuel tank.
>>>
>>> https://fuelsafe.com/thv45/
>>>
>>> <Vent valve.JPG>
>>>
>>> <photo 2.JPG>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Greg Wrobel <clouddog22@gmail.com>
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 7:32 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52TW Fuel Starvation at near zero G
>>>
>>> Regarding the CJ6. I was one of the fortunate to go to China with member
s of the Southeast region a few months ago. The highlight of our 2 week jour
ney was visiting the factory that is currently building the latest CJ6A airc
raft (by the way, no significant changes were noted). I will not go into the
details of the visit or our journey but during our visit to the factory, we
were able to sit down with the factory manager , CJ6A engineers, and produc
tion staff. When you ask a question , you do not want to ask in a way that t
hey preceive that you are accusing them of a design flaw so our wording was c
arefully chosen. One of our questions related to fuel imbalance so we caref
ully asked if they were aware of the fuel imbalance that occures during fli
ght or while sitting on a sloped ramp. To our amazement, they were familiar
. To our further amazement, nothing has been done to correct the issue! Th
ey know it exist but there has been no changes in design to correct it.
>>>
>>> Please realize, our discussions were through interpreters as the only C
hinese we knew were P=C3=ADji=C7=94 (beer) and B=C3=A1iji=C7=94 (clear typ
es of alchohol) pronounced pee-joe and bye-joe respectively. Ok then, you ha
ve now been enlightened to some important Chinese words of the day. In any c
ase, we are not sure if they truly understood our question or we truly und
erstood their answer but there you have it.
>>>
>>> Now what does this have to do with engine hesitation at the top of a loo
p in a YAK52.....absolutely nothing! Just seems we were beating flapper valv
es to death in a CJ and went astray. We have installed elaborate venting sys
tems in our CJ's to fix fuel imbalance and have all these questions and theo
ries. Maybe the Chinese are telling the truth on this one. The CJ has a fu
el imbalance issue created by flappers/ check valves or gremlins and appare
ntly it is not going away. =46rom my personal expierence, I keep the fuel 3
/4" - 1" below the rear lip of the fill port as mentioned in the Chinese Fli
ght Manual. This equates to 1 gallon less in the tanks versus topping it of
f. Also attempting to fly wings level and in trim (thats a full time, max co
ncentration effort for me by the way) and most of the time, my fuel burns s
ymmetrical but not always. Apparently I'm not concentrating hard enough. D
arn flapper valves or are they flipper valves? Who knows!
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 16:07 Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca wrote:
>>> A few thoughts on fuel flow problems in the CJ;
>>>
>>> Dennis, would I be correct in assuming that each flapper valve outlet of
the
>>> fuel junction would go to the corresponding side of the Yak 52 header ta
nk?
>>> If so that is functionally the same as the CJ where the flapper valves a
re
>>> mounted in the header tank walls.
>>>
>>> In the early CJ days there were numerous problems with flapper valves st
uck
>>> closed due to evaporating Chinese fuel effectively gluing them in place.
>>> Probably could repeat with auto gas and long enough storage time. Have n
ot
>>> heard of any such problem here with avgas.
>>> Also many problems of blocked (or partially blocked) fuel and vent lines
due
>>> dead bugs and debris. Many had sat for years after being discarded at o
r
>>> near their 4000 hr. life limit.
>>> Dented, kinked and otherwise damaged fuel and vent lines also contribute
>>> immensely to unequal fuel flow.
>>>
>>> On flapper valves; There are 3 of these in the CJ. One is mounted in t
he
>>> line from the header tank to the fuel pump for the sole purpose
>>> of preventing back flow of wobble pump fuel which would otherwise just
>>> re-circulate through the wobble pump. It is subject to substantial open
ing
>>> pressure from the wobble pump. Even Chinese fuel glue could not keep it
>>> closed. An excellent design for the application.
>>>
>>> The other two are identical but are used in an application that requires
a
>>> slightly different design which moves with fuel flow at minimal differen
tial
>>> pressure. These are designed to require a significantly higher differen
tial
>>> pressure to open (significantly here is a relative term, if one could
>>> measure the pressures involved it would likely be in milligrams/sq. cm. )
.
>>> This is evident on inspection:- the area of valve opening surface is ab
out
>>> 1/4 that of the surface holding it closed.
>>> In theory, with perfect trim and absolutely no turbulence whatsoever thi
s
>>> valve would require one full and one empty tank to open.
>>>
>>> So; I have modified the valves in mine by removing valve seat material t
o
>>> reduce the surface contact area from 100% to a near line contact. (actua
lly,
>>> since this is a hand filing operation) about a 0.020' to 0.030" contact
>>> band. This allows the normal closing pressure to also react on the open
ing
>>> side of the flapper resulting in a much closer balance between opening a
nd
>>> closing forces. See attached photos.
>>>
>>> I normally never see a fuel imbalance in excess of 2 to 4 lts. except wh
en I
>>> try to do good slow (or point) rolls. In this case the valve flappers a
re
>>> are doing just that, flapping! After a few I see imbalance up to 15 lt
s.
>>> or so which returns to normal in a few minutes of level flight.
>>>
>>> The valves alone are not the whole problem, I can not stress how impor
tant
>>> the condition of the fuel and vent lines are. Both damage, internal
>>> contamination and leakage are critical. I have spent days during CJ
>>> restorations with a hose, hot water, dish washer soap and shop air getti
ng
>>> crap out of the lines. If you are going to do this be sure both ends of
all
>>> lines are disconnected. You don't want to blow up the the mains or hea
der
>>> tank in the process.
>>>
>>> I had a good example of what a minor discrepancy can do to this fuel sys
tem.
>>> A few years back on about 1 hr. flight home checked fuel gauges and shoc
ked
>>> to see a 20 + lt. imbalance. Checking the vent system I found one conne
ctor
>>> hose in the RH wing joint area had slipped off! (I had used all new hos
e
>>> but no clamps thinking they were tight enough). Dumb! But this relativ
ely
>>> small vent pressure change made a huge difference to the entire fuel sys
tem.
>>>
>>> These valves (In Western terms normally called a vent valve) MUST be mou
nted
>>> with the flapper hinge at the top! This requirement is a problem for th
e
>>> Chinese valve as mounted in the header tank since it is threaded into a
>>> welded fitting on the tank wall with a sealing washer.
>>> So; Three things have have to come together at precisely the same time a
nd
>>> place. The valve is at the top, the torque is correct and the sealing wa
sher
>>> is exactly the right thickness. This of course is mission impossible.
>>>
>>> Enough for now.
>>> Walt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: JON
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2018 2:51 PM
>>> To: dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net ; yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52TW Fuel Starvation at near zero G
>>>
>>> Thanks Dennis.
>>>
>>> I'm thinking these "flapper" valves do not exist on the CJ. I say this
>>> because when I part my CJ on a slope fuel will drain from the upslope ta
nk
>>> to the down slope tank.
>>>
>>> Still leaving the question possed eariler about the header tank. JB
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Xfinity Connect Application
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> From: dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Sent: 2018-12-13 4:37:58 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52TW Fuel Starvation at near zero G
>>>
>>> <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
>>>
>>> I don=99t know the answer to this situation on the CJ. The 52 has
a fuel
>>> junction below the front seat which has flapper valves on each end of th
e
>>> junction where the hoses from the left and right fuel tanks attach. The
>>> flapper valves are design to move inward or away from the fuel tank. The
ir
>>> purpose is to prevent fuel from moving from one tank to the other. HOWEV
ER,
>>> if one of the flapper valves were to bind or stick closed, it would prev
ent
>>> fuel from flowing into the fuel junction from that tank. Should this occ
ur,
>>> one fuel tank could be completely emptied without the other tank ever
>>> draining a drop.
>>>
>>> Now if the CJ=99s header tank has anything similar to the 52
=99s fuel junction,
>>> a stuck or sticking flapper valve, it could definitely cause the symptom
>>> described.
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> > On Dec 13, 2018, at 3:32 PM, JON BLAKE <saber369@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > While we are on the subject of fuel flow, header tanks, etc. I have a
>>> > question about the CJ fuel system.
>>> >
>>> > Not long after I bought my CJ I was returning home from a full day of
>>> > formation flying. My CJ, not unlike many others, has an asymmetrical f
uel
>>> > feed issue meaning it drains from one tank more than the other based o
n
>>> > trim or rather imbalanced trim. On this day, as I neared home, the ri
ght
>>> > tank had about 30 liters indicated and the left tank was approaching z
ero.
>>> > Just as I arrived at the initial entry point over the runway with the l
eft
>>> > fuel low light on steady for a few minutes, the engine quit. While th
is
>>> > sudden silence quickly got my attention, I wasn't all that worried bec
ause
>>> > I was over the runway. I entered a left bank planning to continue wit
h a
>>> > circling approach and land with the engine out, but then after about 3
-5
>>> > seconds in the left bank the engine caught up and continued operating
>>> > normally. I landed immediately without any further issues.
>>> >
>>> > Being an FNG to the CJ back then, I started calling some of the old ti
mers
>>> > asking their opinions. All agreed that it was most likely a fuel issu
e,
>>> > or lack of fuel on one side and as long as I had gas in both tanks I
>>> > shouldn't experience any additional problems. So, with ample gas in b
oth
>>> > tanks, I did several minutes of ground test runs at varying RPMs;
>>> > high-speed taxi checks and after an hour or so took off and completed a
>>> > successful test flight.
>>> >
>>> > So the simple question is... Why did this happen? I repeated the scen
ario
>>> > a few years later; this time on purpose and over the long runway with t
he
>>> > same results. I replicated the same conditions with one exception... w
hen
>>> > the engine "quit" I delayed entering a turn for a few seconds (seemed l
ike
>>> > hours with all that quite in front of me) to see what would happen. A
fter
>>> > a short delay, I entered the left bank and sure enough, the engine
>>> > regained full RPM with no additional issues.
>>> >
>>> > Why did this happen? The main tanks feed the header tank, so in theor
y,
>>> > the fuel tank with gas should continue to feed the header regardless -
>>> > right? I would think that the header tank, being center-line to the
>>> > engine, would continue to drain fuel from the tank with gas and feed f
uel
>>> > to the engine regardless of any delta in fuel tank quantities.
>>> >
>>> > After I repeated the incident on purpose, I once again called around f
or
>>> > opinions and the one thing that I will remember and have passed on to
FNGs
>>> > is something Doug Sapp said... "There are a lot of CJs laying on their
>>> > bellies in corn fields with 60 liters in one side and zero in the othe
r."
>>> >
>>> > I know many will give opinions on the asymmetrical fuel flow, but that
's
>>> > not the question... the header tank is the question. And for those wh
o
>>> > want to tell me about setting proper trim, I've got the trim tabs well
>>> > balanced, but still have to "step on the fuller tank" to get it back t
o
>>> > "30-30" in both tanks. Help me understand the header tank thing and w
e
>>> > can talk about trim later please.
>>> >
>>> > Jon Blake
>>> > Saber369@comcast.net
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> On December 13, 2018 at 12:59 PM Mark Davis <markdavis@wbsnet.org> wr
ote:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> What everyone is possibly not considering is that the flop tube is he
ld
>>> >> in
>>> >> good fuel by either positive g or negative g. O g where the issue ar
ose
>>> >> could have the flop tube out of the fuel if sustained for a long enou
gh
>>> >> time
>>> >> of the hose is becoming somewhat stiff.
>>> >>
>>> >> Mark Davis
>>> >> N44K
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> >> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lann
on
>>> >> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2018 11:19 AM
>>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> >> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52TW Fuel Starvation at near zero G
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> No I am not suggesting anything of the sort. If you would re-read m
y
>>> >> second paragraph you will understand that.
>>> >>
>>> >> My post was a response to your's implying the amount if fuel in the m
ain
>>> >> tanks was enough to to ensure this hesitation should not have happene
d.
>>> >> My response was to simply advise you that the amount of fuel in the m
ains
>>> >> was immaterial and the problem lies somewhere in the fuel management
>>> >> system.
>>> >>
>>> >> Cheers;
>>> >> Walt
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: ggtyler
>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 11:41 PM
>>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> >> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52TW Fuel Starvation at near zero G
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Walt, I'm pretty sure I have a decent handle on the fuel system. I've
got
>>> >> a
>>> >> header tank under the feet, with a flop tube, and then the fuel globe
on
>>> >> the
>>> >>
>>> >> front side of the firewall and a pressure carb. I was under the
>>> >> impression
>>> >> that this system was specifically designed to supply fuel for even a
>>> >> couple
>>> >> minutes of sustained inverted flight.
>>> >>
>>> >> Are you suggesting that fuel starvation during aerobatics could be
>>> >> considered normal in a Yak 52? Sergei didn't seem to think so. He's g
ot
>>> >> thousands of hours in the Yak 52 and the first words out of his mouth
>>> >> were
>>> >> "that's not good".
>>> >>
>>> >> I'm trying to assess if this has been an occasional rare occurrence f
or
>>> >> other Yak owners, and what the possible solutions might be.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Read this topic online here:
>>> >>
>>> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486270#486270
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ---
>>> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>> >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Hi, Group!
Quick reply, Mark is correct. I have no idea what "camshaft scavenging" is,
so I may have been misquoted, misinterpreted or there was another source of
that term.
I will follow up with more comment, when I get a chance.
thank you and Happy new Year!
Jill
Jill Gernetzke
M-14P, Inc.
4905 Flightline Drive
Kingman, AZ 86401
928-681-4400
www.m-14p.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Oil blurp |
A bit of clarity here! The term "camshaft scavenge" sure as hell did not
come from Jill! It in fact came from a poster representing "Red Star
Aviation Service".
Jill knows better that anyone on this list that the "camshaft" in a radial
engine is a figment of someone's imagination. It does not exist!
Cheers;
Walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Jill Gernetzke
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 8:36 AM
Subject: Yak-List: RE: Oil blurp
Hi, Group!
Quick reply, Mark is correct. I have no idea what "camshaft scavenging" is,
so I may have been misquoted, misinterpreted or there was another source of
that term.
I will follow up with more comment, when I get a chance.
thank you and Happy new Year!
Jill
Jill Gernetzke
M-14P, Inc.
4905 Flightline Drive
Kingman, AZ 86401
928-681-4400
www.m-14p.com
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Message 6
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| Subject: | Housai engine manual needed |
Hey guys,
I am in need of a manual for my Housai engine. Anybody have one digitally or otherwise?
Thanks alot,
Andrew
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486834#486834
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| Subject: | Hangar decorations |
Doing some hangar cleaning and Ive got alot of spare things laying around.Mig 21
nose cone covers, Mig chocks, Mig wing jacks, Mig 17 drop tanks(new), Wilga
work stand, An-2/M-18 prop blades, An-2 chocks, etc.
Send me a message if interested, prices negotiable.
Andrew
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486835#486835
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Imbalance (Re: Yak 52TW Fuel Starvation at near zero |
G)
Since April 2017.
If they ever needed repair, they could be shipped back to Aerotech in Califo
rnia, who manufactured them for us.
Dennis
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 8, 2019, at 10:34 AM, John Nolan <johnrobertnolan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dennis,
>
> Yes, I have them. I didn=99t know that you no longer sell them. What
are my repair or replace my options if it ever comes to that?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Nolan
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jan 7, 2019, at 9:12 PM, Anthony Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net
> wrote:
>>
>> Fuel bladders are no longer available. If you have them, yes they can be i
nstalled in the filler plate.
>> Dennis
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jan 7, 2019, at 5:01 PM, John Nolan <johnrobertnolan@gmail.com> wrote
:
>>>
>>> Dennis,
>>>
>>> Can these be installed on your aftermarket fuel bladders?
>>>
>>> John Nolan
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 6:42 AM A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bells
outh.net> wrote:
>>>> FWIW, the single vent system Yak 52's (pre '89) models have a fuel imba
lance issue as well, especially with full tanks and with the airplane sittin
g on the ramp in the sun. The net of it is the vent system gets blocked wit
h fuel. Particularly the vent line on the right tank because of the design o
f the vent system. As everyone knows, vent lines must be clear of fuel in o
rder for fuel to feed. With a blocked vent line, no fuel can feed from that
tank. That's why we roll the airplane up on one wing and fly straight to f
orce the fuel out of the vent line.
>>>>
>>>> BUT there is a solution...a second vent to the tank. This can also app
ly to the CJ. Install this vent check valve on the top of the tank and run t
he vent tube overboard. Most likely location is near the fill port so you'l
l have access to the inside of the tank to tighten the nut on the bottom of t
he vent check valve. The vent check valve is used in race cars and should t
he race car were to turn over, the vent check valve would prevent the fuel f
rom leaking out of the tank. With the vent check valve installed, during fl
ight the tank will always have a clear vent line.
>>>>
>>>> Here is a link to where it can be purchased and also a photo of the ven
t check valve installed on the top of a fuel filler plate on a Yak 52 fuel b
ladder. One is required for each fuel tank.
>>>>
>>>> https://fuelsafe.com/thv45/
>>>>
>>>> <Vent valve.JPG>
>>>>
>>>> <photo 2.JPG>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Greg Wrobel <clouddog22@gmail.com>
>>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 7:32 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52TW Fuel Starvation at near zero G
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the CJ6. I was one of the fortunate to go to China with membe
rs of the Southeast region a few months ago. The highlight of our 2 week jou
rney was visiting the factory that is currently building the latest CJ6A air
craft (by the way, no significant changes were noted). I will not go into th
e details of the visit or our journey but during our visit to the factory, w
e were able to sit down with the factory manager , CJ6A engineers, and produ
ction staff. When you ask a question , you do not want to ask in a way that t
hey preceive that you are accusing them of a design flaw so our wording was c
arefully chosen. One of our questions related to fuel imbalance so we caref
ully asked if they were aware of the fuel imbalance that occures during fli
ght or while sitting on a sloped ramp. To our amazement, they were familiar
. To our further amazement, nothing has been done to correct the issue! Th
ey know it exist but there has been no changes in design to correct it.
>>>>
>>>> Please realize, our discussions were through interpreters as the only C
hinese we knew were P=C3=ADji=C7=94 (beer) and B=C3=A1iji=C7=94 (clear typ
es of alchohol) pronounced pee-joe and bye-joe respectively. Ok then, you ha
ve now been enlightened to some important Chinese words of the day. In any c
ase, we are not sure if they truly understood our question or we truly und
erstood their answer but there you have it.
>>>>
>>>> Now what does this have to do with engine hesitation at the top of a lo
op in a YAK52.....absolutely nothing! Just seems we were beating flapper val
ves to death in a CJ and went astray. We have installed elaborate venting sy
stems in our CJ's to fix fuel imbalance and have all these questions and the
ories. Maybe the Chinese are telling the truth on this one. The CJ has a f
uel imbalance issue created by flappers/ check valves or gremlins and appar
ently it is not going away. =46rom my personal expierence, I keep the fuel 3
/4" - 1" below the rear lip of the fill port as mentioned in the Chinese Fli
ght Manual. This equates to 1 gallon less in the tanks versus topping it of
f. Also attempting to fly wings level and in trim (thats a full time, max co
ncentration effort for me by the way) and most of the time, my fuel burns s
ymmetrical but not always. Apparently I'm not concentrating hard enough. D
arn flapper valves or are they flipper valves? Who knows!
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 16:07 Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca wrote:
>>>> A few thoughts on fuel flow problems in the CJ;
>>>>
>>>> Dennis, would I be correct in assuming that each flapper valve outlet o
f the
>>>> fuel junction would go to the corresponding side of the Yak 52 header t
ank?
>>>> If so that is functionally the same as the CJ where the flapper valves a
re
>>>> mounted in the header tank walls.
>>>>
>>>> In the early CJ days there were numerous problems with flapper valves s
tuck
>>>> closed due to evaporating Chinese fuel effectively gluing them in place
.
>>>> Probably could repeat with auto gas and long enough storage time. Have
not
>>>> heard of any such problem here with avgas.
>>>> Also many problems of blocked (or partially blocked) fuel and vent line
s due
>>>> dead bugs and debris. Many had sat for years after being discarded at o
r
>>>> near their 4000 hr. life limit.
>>>> Dented, kinked and otherwise damaged fuel and vent lines also contribut
e
>>>> immensely to unequal fuel flow.
>>>>
>>>> On flapper valves; There are 3 of these in the CJ. One is mounted in
the
>>>> line from the header tank to the fuel pump for the sole purpose
>>>> of preventing back flow of wobble pump fuel which would otherwise just
>>>> re-circulate through the wobble pump. It is subject to substantial ope
ning
>>>> pressure from the wobble pump. Even Chinese fuel glue could not keep i
t
>>>> closed. An excellent design for the application.
>>>>
>>>> The other two are identical but are used in an application that require
s a
>>>> slightly different design which moves with fuel flow at minimal differe
ntial
>>>> pressure. These are designed to require a significantly higher differe
ntial
>>>> pressure to open (significantly here is a relative term, if one could
>>>> measure the pressures involved it would likely be in milligrams/sq. cm.
).
>>>> This is evident on inspection:- the area of valve opening surface is a
bout
>>>> 1/4 that of the surface holding it closed.
>>>> In theory, with perfect trim and absolutely no turbulence whatsoever th
is
>>>> valve would require one full and one empty tank to open.
>>>>
>>>> So; I have modified the valves in mine by removing valve seat material t
o
>>>> reduce the surface contact area from 100% to a near line contact. (actu
ally,
>>>> since this is a hand filing operation) about a 0.020' to 0.030" contact
>>>> band. This allows the normal closing pressure to also react on the ope
ning
>>>> side of the flapper resulting in a much closer balance between opening a
nd
>>>> closing forces. See attached photos.
>>>>
>>>> I normally never see a fuel imbalance in excess of 2 to 4 lts. except w
hen I
>>>> try to do good slow (or point) rolls. In this case the valve flappers
are
>>>> are doing just that, flapping! After a few I see imbalance up to 15 l
ts.
>>>> or so which returns to normal in a few minutes of level flight.
>>>>
>>>> The valves alone are not the whole problem, I can not stress how impo
rtant
>>>> the condition of the fuel and vent lines are. Both damage, internal
>>>> contamination and leakage are critical. I have spent days during CJ
>>>> restorations with a hose, hot water, dish washer soap and shop air gett
ing
>>>> crap out of the lines. If you are going to do this be sure both ends o
f all
>>>> lines are disconnected. You don't want to blow up the the mains or he
ader
>>>> tank in the process.
>>>>
>>>> I had a good example of what a minor discrepancy can do to this fuel sy
stem.
>>>> A few years back on about 1 hr. flight home checked fuel gauges and sho
cked
>>>> to see a 20 + lt. imbalance. Checking the vent system I found one conn
ector
>>>> hose in the RH wing joint area had slipped off! (I had used all new ho
se
>>>> but no clamps thinking they were tight enough). Dumb! But this relati
vely
>>>> small vent pressure change made a huge difference to the entire fuel sy
stem.
>>>>
>>>> These valves (In Western terms normally called a vent valve) MUST be mo
unted
>>>> with the flapper hinge at the top! This requirement is a problem for t
he
>>>> Chinese valve as mounted in the header tank since it is threaded into a
>>>> welded fitting on the tank wall with a sealing washer.
>>>> So; Three things have have to come together at precisely the same time
and
>>>> place. The valve is at the top, the torque is correct and the sealing w
asher
>>>> is exactly the right thickness. This of course is mission impossible.
>>>>
>>>> Enough for now.
>>>> Walt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: JON
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2018 2:51 PM
>>>> To: dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net ; yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52TW Fuel Starvation at near zero G
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Dennis.
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking these "flapper" valves do not exist on the CJ. I say this
>>>> because when I part my CJ on a slope fuel will drain from the upslope t
ank
>>>> to the down slope tank.
>>>>
>>>> Still leaving the question possed eariler about the header tank. JB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from Xfinity Connect Application
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>> From: dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net
>>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> Sent: 2018-12-13 4:37:58 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52TW Fuel Starvation at near zero G
>>>>
>>>> <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
>>>>
>>>> I don=99t know the answer to this situation on the CJ. The 52 ha
s a fuel
>>>> junction below the front seat which has flapper valves on each end of t
he
>>>> junction where the hoses from the left and right fuel tanks attach. The
>>>> flapper valves are design to move inward or away from the fuel tank. Th
eir
>>>> purpose is to prevent fuel from moving from one tank to the other. HOWE
VER,
>>>> if one of the flapper valves were to bind or stick closed, it would pre
vent
>>>> fuel from flowing into the fuel junction from that tank. Should this oc
cur,
>>>> one fuel tank could be completely emptied without the other tank ever
>>>> draining a drop.
>>>>
>>>> Now if the CJ=99s header tank has anything similar to the 52
=99s fuel junction,
>>>> a stuck or sticking flapper valve, it could definitely cause the sympto
m
>>>> described.
>>>> Dennis
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>> > On Dec 13, 2018, at 3:32 PM, JON BLAKE <saber369@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > While we are on the subject of fuel flow, header tanks, etc. I have a
>>>> > question about the CJ fuel system.
>>>> >
>>>> > Not long after I bought my CJ I was returning home from a full day of
>>>> > formation flying. My CJ, not unlike many others, has an asymmetrical
fuel
>>>> > feed issue meaning it drains from one tank more than the other based o
n
>>>> > trim or rather imbalanced trim. On this day, as I neared home, the r
ight
>>>> > tank had about 30 liters indicated and the left tank was approaching z
ero.
>>>> > Just as I arrived at the initial entry point over the runway with the
left
>>>> > fuel low light on steady for a few minutes, the engine quit. While t
his
>>>> > sudden silence quickly got my attention, I wasn't all that worried be
cause
>>>> > I was over the runway. I entered a left bank planning to continue wi
th a
>>>> > circling approach and land with the engine out, but then after about 3
-5
>>>> > seconds in the left bank the engine caught up and continued operating
>>>> > normally. I landed immediately without any further issues.
>>>> >
>>>> > Being an FNG to the CJ back then, I started calling some of the old t
imers
>>>> > asking their opinions. All agreed that it was most likely a fuel iss
ue,
>>>> > or lack of fuel on one side and as long as I had gas in both tanks I
>>>> > shouldn't experience any additional problems. So, with ample gas in b
oth
>>>> > tanks, I did several minutes of ground test runs at varying RPMs;
>>>> > high-speed taxi checks and after an hour or so took off and completed
a
>>>> > successful test flight.
>>>> >
>>>> > So the simple question is... Why did this happen? I repeated the sce
nario
>>>> > a few years later; this time on purpose and over the long runway with
the
>>>> > same results. I replicated the same conditions with one exception...
when
>>>> > the engine "quit" I delayed entering a turn for a few seconds (seemed
like
>>>> > hours with all that quite in front of me) to see what would happen. A
fter
>>>> > a short delay, I entered the left bank and sure enough, the engine
>>>> > regained full RPM with no additional issues.
>>>> >
>>>> > Why did this happen? The main tanks feed the header tank, so in theo
ry,
>>>> > the fuel tank with gas should continue to feed the header regardless -
>>>> > right? I would think that the header tank, being center-line to the
>>>> > engine, would continue to drain fuel from the tank with gas and feed f
uel
>>>> > to the engine regardless of any delta in fuel tank quantities.
>>>> >
>>>> > After I repeated the incident on purpose, I once again called around f
or
>>>> > opinions and the one thing that I will remember and have passed on to
FNGs
>>>> > is something Doug Sapp said... "There are a lot of CJs laying on thei
r
>>>> > bellies in corn fields with 60 liters in one side and zero in the oth
er."
>>>> >
>>>> > I know many will give opinions on the asymmetrical fuel flow, but tha
t's
>>>> > not the question... the header tank is the question. And for those w
ho
>>>> > want to tell me about setting proper trim, I've got the trim tabs wel
l
>>>> > balanced, but still have to "step on the fuller tank" to get it back t
o
>>>> > "30-30" in both tanks. Help me understand the header tank thing and w
e
>>>> > can talk about trim later please.
>>>> >
>>>> > Jon Blake
>>>> > Saber369@comcast.net
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> On December 13, 2018 at 12:59 PM Mark Davis <markdavis@wbsnet.org> w
rote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> What everyone is possibly not considering is that the flop tube is h
eld
>>>> >> in
>>>> >> good fuel by either positive g or negative g. O g where the issue a
rose
>>>> >> could have the flop tube out of the fuel if sustained for a long eno
ugh
>>>> >> time
>>>> >> of the hose is becoming somewhat stiff.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Mark Davis
>>>> >> N44K
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> >> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lan
non
>>>> >> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2018 11:19 AM
>>>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> >> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52TW Fuel Starvation at near zero G
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> No I am not suggesting anything of the sort. If you would re-read m
y
>>>> >> second paragraph you will understand that.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> My post was a response to your's implying the amount if fuel in the
main
>>>> >> tanks was enough to to ensure this hesitation should not have happen
ed.
>>>> >> My response was to simply advise you that the amount of fuel in the m
ains
>>>> >> was immaterial and the problem lies somewhere in the fuel management
>>>> >> system.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Cheers;
>>>> >> Walt
>>>> >>
>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> From: ggtyler
>>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 11:41 PM
>>>> >> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> >> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52TW Fuel Starvation at near zero G
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Walt, I'm pretty sure I have a decent handle on the fuel system. I'v
e got
>>>> >> a
>>>> >> header tank under the feet, with a flop tube, and then the fuel glob
e on
>>>> >> the
>>>> >>
>>>> >> front side of the firewall and a pressure carb. I was under the
>>>> >> impression
>>>> >> that this system was specifically designed to supply fuel for even a
>>>> >> couple
>>>> >> minutes of sustained inverted flight.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Are you suggesting that fuel starvation during aerobatics could be
>>>> >> considered normal in a Yak 52? Sergei didn't seem to think so. He's g
ot
>>>> >> thousands of hours in the Yak 52 and the first words out of his mout
h
>>>> >> were
>>>> >> "that's not good".
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I'm trying to assess if this has been an occasional rare occurrence f
or
>>>> >> other Yak owners, and what the possible solutions might be.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Read this topic online here:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486270#486270
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ---
>>>> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>>> >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Housai engine manual needed |
Andrew.
Contact me offline. I am pretty sure I have one.
My plane has an M14P.
Don=99t need the Housai manual.
Mark Pennington
On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 3:45 PM NebraskaYak <andrew.malousek@comcast.net>
wrote:
t
> >
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I am in need of a manual for my Housai engine. Anybody have one digitally
> or otherwise?
>
> Thanks alot,
> Andrew
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486834#486834
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 10
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|
| Subject: | Re: Housai engine manual needed |
There are several Housai manuals on my web page CJ6.org.
On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 12:45 PM NebraskaYak <andrew.malousek@comcast.net>
wrote:
> >
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I am in need of a manual for my Housai engine. Anybody have one digitally
> or otherwise?
>
> Thanks alot,
> Andrew
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486834#486834
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Oil blurp |
It was from me. And its applicable. Im in no way a master of the M-14 but all performance
engines have a method of valve timing that allows effective high volume
airflow through the engine. This will cause, for a very small fraction of
time during rotation, both the intake and exhaust valve to be open at the same
time. That can add to this problem was the only point I was trying to make.
Not sure how this got all out of specification or that anyone was going to get
upset by mentioning it.
Best regards,
Bill Culberson
Red Star Aero Services
251/716/8119
> On Jan 8, 2019, at 12:55 PM, Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> A bit of clarity here! The term "camshaft scavenge" sure as hell did not come
from Jill! It in fact came from a poster representing "Red Star Aviation Service".
> Jill knows better that anyone on this list that the "camshaft" in a radial engine
is a figment of someone's imagination. It does not exist!
>
> Cheers;
> Walt
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Jill Gernetzke
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 8:36 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: RE: Oil blurp
>
>
> Hi, Group!
>
> Quick reply, Mark is correct. I have no idea what "camshaft scavenging" is,
> so I may have been misquoted, misinterpreted or there was another source of
> that term.
>
> I will follow up with more comment, when I get a chance.
>
> thank you and Happy new Year!
> Jill
>
>
> Jill Gernetzke
> M-14P, Inc.
> 4905 Flightline Drive
> Kingman, AZ 86401
> 928-681-4400
> www.m-14p.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | YAK 52TW For Sale |
Yak List -
Dont know if offering aircraft for sale is appropriate to this list, but please
contact me off list for details if interested.
2002 Aerostar YAK 52TW, serial 02122302, N699DP, 660TT, approx 250 SMOH on Fuel
Injected M14, Fresh 3 Blade MT prop
Thanks
Mark King
MCFI-A, Gold Seal CFII
CP Aviation, Santa Paula, Ca
mkingcfi@icloud.com
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Oil blurp |
Hi Bill;
My apology. You are right on. I guess I fixated on the word "camshaft"
which does not exist in a radial engine rather than the word "scavenge"
which in fact does due to normal valve overlap with the intake valve opening
a few degrees ahead of the exhaust valve closing.
This would tend to move any remaining exhaust / oil residue out of the
exhaust valve.
Walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Culberson
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Oil blurp
It was from me. And its applicable. Im in no way a master of the M-14 but
all performance engines have a method of valve timing that allows effective
high volume airflow through the engine. This will cause, for a very small
fraction of time during rotation, both the intake and exhaust valve to be
open at the same time. That can add to this problem was the only point I was
trying to make. Not sure how this got all out of specification or that
anyone was going to get upset by mentioning it.
Best regards,
Bill Culberson
Red Star Aero Services
251/716/8119
> On Jan 8, 2019, at 12:55 PM, Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> A bit of clarity here! The term "camshaft scavenge" sure as hell did not
> come from Jill! It in fact came from a poster representing "Red Star
> Aviation Service".
> Jill knows better that anyone on this list that the "camshaft" in a radial
> engine is a figment of someone's imagination. It does not exist!
>
> Cheers;
> Walt
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Jill Gernetzke
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 8:36 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: RE: Oil blurp
>
>
> Hi, Group!
>
> Quick reply, Mark is correct. I have no idea what "camshaft scavenging"
> is,
> so I may have been misquoted, misinterpreted or there was another source
> of
> that term.
>
> I will follow up with more comment, when I get a chance.
>
> thank you and Happy new Year!
> Jill
>
>
> Jill Gernetzke
> M-14P, Inc.
> 4905 Flightline Drive
> Kingman, AZ 86401
> 928-681-4400
> www.m-14p.com
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
Message 14
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Hey all.
My 55m keeps getting a soft brake pedal on one side.
Airs getting into the fluid , but we can't see a reason why. Any ideas ? Steve.
--------
SteveO
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486849#486849
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