Today's Message Index:
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1. 04:40 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? (Walter Lannon)
2. 04:52 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? (Roger Kemp)
3. 05:19 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? (Michael Foster)
4. 05:28 PM - Re: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? (Roger Kemp)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: G meter, when do you use it? |
With regard to Michael's and Mark's latest posts on this subject I have to
both agree and disagree so here goes.
The only "constant G" maneuver I can think of is a level turn. Well
described by Michael.
In slightly over 62 years of owning and flying ex-military training aircraft
I can not recall any being factory equipped with a "G" meter. That includes
the Fairchild PT26 (Cornell), Ryan PT22, Chipmunk, NA Harvard and T6 and
finally the CJ6.
Mark quite likely is correct regarding the T34 Mentor but I suspect
Beechcraft has been a little gun-shy over the years due to a seeming
inability to keep the wings from falling off (and not just the T34).
The first aircraft I installed a "G" meter in was the Harvard 4 (the last
and best of the series). My all time favorite for 30 years, did the local
airshow circuit for many years and held both FAA and Transport Canada
Aerobatic and Formation competency certificates (before ICAS).
I fully agree with Michael's final comment (though probably directed to
myself) regarding instruction. However when I started teaching myself
aerobatics an aerobatic instructor simply did not exist at least in my area
at the time (1955).
I had purchased a series of manuals published in the 1940's by the US Civil
Aeronautics Administration (now FAA) on all aspects of the US Civil Pilot
Training Program. One had a very extensive section on aerobatics. Like
Mark, I scared the s*&t out of myself a few times but somehow survived.
The aircraft we are discussing are all in the "standard" aerobatic category
with operational "G" limits of +6 and -3. One item that may not be well
known is that these limits apply only when the wings are symmetrically
loaded. Maneuvers like a rolling pullout are limited to max. of +4 "G". As
an old guy flying an old aircraft my limit is 4 "G" for everything.
In addition unlike competition aerobatic aircraft we have no inverted fuel
and oil systems. In the Harvard/T6 which has a float type carburetor the
engine will sign off in approx. 6 - 8 sec. of negative "G". Not so in the
CJ6 which employs a pressure carb. In either aircraft the oil pressure is
gone almost instantly with
any negative "G". So zero "G" may be acceptable in the CJ for 2 - 3 sec.
but you should avoid negative like the plague.
Michael's description of the loop is basically correct but I think a little
misleading. Yes; start with a 4 "G" pull to the vertical, forget the "G"
meter and continue to pull! Your airspeed is heading for the toilet and the
"G" loading is going or gone. As you approach the top move the stick very
smoothly forward to sail over the top at zero "G", not +1, for about 1 - 2
sec. then start the pull for home. Now, if you like, you can look at the
"G" meter again.
When you level out at your entry altitude and your entry speed ( I use 160
kts for the CJ) and your "G" meter shows exactly +4 and zero you have just
completed a perfectly round loop. Will take a while to get there and a
smoke system will help a bunch. If you are programmed (as I was) to
American propellor rotation
you may have to relearn how to pull straight up!
Walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Foster
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: G meter, when do you use it?
Is there really such a thing as a constant g maneuver? Think of a 60 degree
aob steep turn. It is by definition a 2 g level turn. Can you fly it at a
constant 2 g? Maybe if you are Bob Hoover, but us mortals have to adjust the
g and bank to stay level. Vertical maneuvers are the same. They start with a
gradual pull to 4 g, which decreases near the vertical to about 1 g over the
top and gradually increases again going down. The g meter teaches muscle
memory and is useful only to set the nose for the first and last quarter of
the maneuver. Get some instruction before teaching yourself bad habits.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 12, 2019, at 14:02, Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Perhaps the answer to that question may be: -- In comparing your "G"
> meter reading after completion of a maneuver with a ground observer's
> remarks (or video) and your own impressions of the maneuver's quality.
>
> Walt
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV USMC MAG 14 (US)
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 9:13 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: G meter, when do you use it?
>
> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> If I understand the question correctly, usually when learning to perform a
> constant G maneuver. Honestly not sure what you meant by "take the most
> out of your G meter?"
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] on behalf of motoadve
> [motoadve@racsa.co.cr]
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 12:17 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: G meter, when do you use it?
>
>
> When and how do you take the most out of your G meter?
>
> --------
> www.Backcountry182.com<http://www.backcountry182.com/>
> Cessna 182 P
> CJ -6
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488677#488677
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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| Subject: | Re: G meter, when do you use it? |
Sent from my iPad
> On Apr 17, 2019, at 10:27 AM, William Geipel <l129bs@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Cornering speed
>
>> On Apr 17, 2019, at 08:42, Michael Foster <michaelfoster@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Is there really such a thing as a constant g maneuver? Think of a 60 degree
aob steep turn. It is by definition a 2 g level turn. Can you fly it at a constant
2 g? Maybe if you are Bob Hoover, but us mortals have to adjust the g and
bank to stay level. Vertical maneuvers are the same. They start with a gradual
pull to 4 g, which decreases near the vertical to about 1 g over the top and
gradually increases again going down. The g meter teaches muscle memory and is
useful only to set the nose for the first and last quarter of the maneuver.
Get some instruction before teaching yourself bad habits.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Apr 12, 2019, at 14:02, Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps the answer to that question may be: -- In comparing your "G" meter
reading after completion of a maneuver with a ground observer's remarks (or video)
and your own impressions of the maneuver's quality.
>>>
>>> Walt
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV USMC MAG 14 (US)
>>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 9:13 AM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RE: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: G meter, when do you use it?
>>>
>>>
>>> If I understand the question correctly, usually when learning to perform a
constant G maneuver. Honestly not sure what you meant by "take the most out of
your G meter?"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
on behalf of motoadve [motoadve@racsa.co.cr]
>>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 12:17 AM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: G meter, when do you use it?
>>>
>>>
>>> When and how do you take the most out of your G meter?
>>>
>>> --------
>>> www.Backcountry182.com<http://www.backcountry182.com/>
>>> Cessna 182 P
>>> CJ -6
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488677#488677
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: G meter, when do you use it? |
Walt, so glad you inserted the caution on rolling pullouts. Not remaining wings
level throughout the overheads can easily result in a rolling pullout. In Split
S, Half Cubans be sure wings are level before pulling out. Be especially careful
in a Barrel Roll to avoid the high g rolling pullout. There will be some
g just dont overdo it.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 18, 2019, at 17:48, Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> With regard to Michael's and Mark's latest posts on this subject I have to both
agree and disagree so here goes.
>
> The only "constant G" maneuver I can think of is a level turn. Well described
by Michael.
>
> In slightly over 62 years of owning and flying ex-military training aircraft
I can not recall any being factory equipped with a "G" meter. That includes the
Fairchild PT26 (Cornell), Ryan PT22, Chipmunk, NA Harvard and T6 and finally
the CJ6.
> Mark quite likely is correct regarding the T34 Mentor but I suspect Beechcraft
has been a little gun-shy over the years due to a seeming inability to keep
the wings from falling off (and not just the T34).
>
> The first aircraft I installed a "G" meter in was the Harvard 4 (the last and
best of the series). My all time favorite for 30 years, did the local airshow
circuit for many years and held both FAA and Transport Canada Aerobatic and
Formation competency certificates (before ICAS).
>
> I fully agree with Michael's final comment (though probably directed to myself)
regarding instruction. However when I started teaching myself aerobatics
an aerobatic instructor simply did not exist at least in my area at the time (1955).
> I had purchased a series of manuals published in the 1940's by the US Civil Aeronautics
Administration (now FAA) on all aspects of the US Civil Pilot Training
Program. One had a very extensive section on aerobatics. Like Mark, I scared
the s*&t out of myself a few times but somehow survived.
>
> The aircraft we are discussing are all in the "standard" aerobatic category with
operational "G" limits of +6 and -3. One item that may not be well known
is that these limits apply only when the wings are symmetrically loaded. Maneuvers
like a rolling pullout are limited to max. of +4 "G". As an old guy flying
an old aircraft my limit is 4 "G" for everything.
>
> In addition unlike competition aerobatic aircraft we have no inverted fuel and
oil systems. In the Harvard/T6 which has a float type carburetor the engine
will sign off in approx. 6 - 8 sec. of negative "G". Not so in the CJ6 which
employs a pressure carb. In either aircraft the oil pressure is gone almost
instantly with
> any negative "G". So zero "G" may be acceptable in the CJ for 2 - 3 sec. but
you should avoid negative like the plague.
>
> Michael's description of the loop is basically correct but I think a little misleading.
Yes; start with a 4 "G" pull to the vertical, forget the "G" meter
and continue to pull! Your airspeed is heading for the toilet and the "G" loading
is going or gone. As you approach the top move the stick very smoothly
forward to sail over the top at zero "G", not +1, for about 1 - 2 sec. then
start the pull for home. Now, if you like, you can look at the "G" meter again.
>
> When you level out at your entry altitude and your entry speed ( I use 160 kts
for the CJ) and your "G" meter shows exactly +4 and zero you have just completed
a perfectly round loop. Will take a while to get there and a smoke system
will help a bunch. If you are programmed (as I was) to American propellor
rotation
> you may have to relearn how to pull straight up!
>
> Walt
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Michael Foster
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 6:42 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: G meter, when do you use it?
>
>
> Is there really such a thing as a constant g maneuver? Think of a 60 degree aob
steep turn. It is by definition a 2 g level turn. Can you fly it at a constant
2 g? Maybe if you are Bob Hoover, but us mortals have to adjust the g and
bank to stay level. Vertical maneuvers are the same. They start with a gradual
pull to 4 g, which decreases near the vertical to about 1 g over the top and
gradually increases again going down. The g meter teaches muscle memory and is
useful only to set the nose for the first and last quarter of the maneuver. Get
some instruction before teaching yourself bad habits.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 12, 2019, at 14:02, Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Perhaps the answer to that question may be: -- In comparing your "G" meter
reading after completion of a maneuver with a ground observer's remarks (or video)
and your own impressions of the maneuver's quality.
>>
>> Walt
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV USMC MAG 14 (US)
>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 9:13 AM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: G meter, when do you use it?
>>
>>
>> If I understand the question correctly, usually when learning to perform a constant
G maneuver. Honestly not sure what you meant by "take the most out of
your G meter?"
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
on behalf of motoadve [motoadve@racsa.co.cr]
>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 12:17 AM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: G meter, when do you use it?
>>
>>
>> When and how do you take the most out of your G meter?
>>
>> --------
>> www.Backcountry182.com<http://www.backcountry182.com/>
>> Cessna 182 P
>> CJ -6
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488677#488677
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: G meter, when do you use it? |
Absolutely correct there is a such thing as constant G turn. That was our cornering
speed in the Viper (all other fighters too for that matter). The best rate
of turn at constant airspeed and G as memory serves was between 330-450 kts
at 6-8 Gs. That gave Viper the best rate of turn in ACM. Hi G = tighter turn
radius but it also meant more bleed off of AS and less energy.
All aircraft have a best cornering speed but most civilian aircraft drivers do
not use that parameter.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
> On Apr 17, 2019, at 11:54 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV USMC MAG 14 (US) <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
wrote:
>
>
> Sorry to disagree, but yes, there is actually such a thing as "a constant G maneuver,
and no you really do not need to be Bob Hoover to accomplish it. That
being said, I do agree with you, it is not really needed in a 60 degree turn,
which is why not too many general aviation aircraft have it included.
>
>
>
> But constant G, is no different than constant airspeed, steady altitude, or a
certain angle of attack and I believe you know this. The instrument is a tool
that is used for certain purposes and how well you use it reflects on your ability
as a pilot.
>
>
>
> A G meter is standard apparel in any aircraft that is expected to perform aerobatics.
It is found not only in the Yak's and CJ's, but also in every military
out there (Ok, maybe not during WW-I). Your comment about it being needed
for the first and last part of a figure is true and not true, both at the same
time. The answer depends on exactly what you are talking about and how you
go about trying to do it. You can do a vertical maneuver exactly as you describe,
and you can also do aerobatics without a G meter, and it all depends what
you are looking for.
>
>
>
> If a pilot does exactly what you said: "A gradual pull to 4 G which decreases
near the vertical", the arc that the aircraft will draw in the sky will not be
symmetrical. if the only goal is to get vertical in the first place, then your
description will be fine. If you are a beginning aerobatic pilot, your instructor
will sit down and explain what "constant G" really is, why it is important
to be able to perform it, and will remind you constantly when you don't.
If you perform in todays highly competitive world of aerobatics you will see
that the style these days is a very hard onset of G, painful in fact, and then
a very rapid release with a slight push forward to "set the line". This kind
of flying comes long after your first exposure to a G meter. I hope all of
this finally answers the original question of "G meter when do you use it?"
>
>
>
> Regarding instruction, bad habits, etc. Anyone with a grain of sense should
realize that obtaining instruction before attempting to perform aerobatics is
wise. At 21 years of age with no fear of death, and a Marine Sgt. no less, I
was not very wise and instead taught myself aerobatics from reading Duanne Cole's
book "Turns about a point" in a T-34B Mentor no less. After I don't know
how many terrible dished out rolls, and very close experiences with the ground
I decided maybe I ought to get some instruction. In other words, I eventually
scared myself so badly that I managed to exhibit my first grain of wisdom.
I am only mentioning this because at some level, all of us that own airplanes,
especially these kinds of airplanes, is a kid at heart no matter how many birthdays
we've had.
>
>
>
> Those first aerobatic experiences made such a deep impression on me that my SM-1019
now has the same N number as that old T-34B; Beechcraft N4756 And yes,
I am lucky to be alive and that N number constantly reminds me of that.
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
on behalf of Michael Foster [michaelfoster@bellsouth.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 9:42 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: G meter, when do you use it?
>
>
> Is there really such a thing as a constant g maneuver? Think of a 60 degree aob
steep turn. It is by definition a 2 g level turn. Can you fly it at a constant
2 g? Maybe if you are Bob Hoover, but us mortals have to adjust the g and
bank to stay level. Vertical maneuvers are the same. They start with a gradual
pull to 4 g, which decreases near the vertical to about 1 g over the top and
gradually increases again going down. The g meter teaches muscle memory and is
useful only to set the nose for the first and last quarter of the maneuver. Get
some instruction before teaching yourself bad habits.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 12, 2019, at 14:02, Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Perhaps the answer to that question may be: -- In comparing your "G" meter
reading after completion of a maneuver with a ground observer's remarks (or video)
and your own impressions of the maneuver's quality.
>>
>> Walt
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV USMC MAG 14 (US)
>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 9:13 AM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: G meter, when do you use it?
>>
>>
>> If I understand the question correctly, usually when learning to perform a constant
G maneuver. Honestly not sure what you meant by "take the most out of
your G meter?"
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
on behalf of motoadve [motoadve@racsa.co.cr]
>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 12:17 AM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: G meter, when do you use it?
>>
>>
>> When and how do you take the most out of your G meter?
>>
>> --------
>> www.Backcountry182.com<http://www.backcountry182.com/<http://www.backcountry182.com%3chttp//www.backcountry182.com/>>
>> Cessna 182 P
>> CJ -6
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488677#488677
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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