Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:00 PM - The right Adel clamps (Jon Boede)
2. 12:03 PM - G meter, when do you use it? (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV USMC MAG 14 (US))
3. 02:41 PM - Re: G meter, when do you use it? (Ttail)
4. 02:58 PM - Re: Re: G meter, when do you use it? (Mark Pennington)
5. 07:23 PM - Re: Prop won't slow below 70% (glipaz)
6. 08:12 PM - Re: Re: Prop won't slow below 70% (Walter Lannon)
7. 08:24 PM - Re: Prop won't slow below 70% (glipaz)
Message 1
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| Subject: | The right Adel clamps |
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Message 2
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| Subject: | G meter, when do you use it? |
A conversation like this usually manages to turn into a "discussion" on how to
do aerobatics. And we can disagree to disagree about most of that.
These are models I have personally observed factory installed G meters.
A-4 (every model ever made)
A-6 (ever model ever made)
F-4
F-8
AV-8B
T-34 (A,B,C models)
Yak-50
Yak-52
Yak-54
SU-26
SU-29
SU-31
And a lot of them had a second recording G meter system not meant for the pilot
but for the maintainers. An interesting thought here, with no G meter how do
you know that you have come close to or exceeded the maximum rated G load specified
by the manufacturer? Hmmm.
Another fact is that with jets, you are pulling G for a MUCH longer period of time
to perform (for example) a simple loop. A G schedule including a constant
G pull is taught. I've flown in A-6's and have watched it, and have done it in
the Sims.
The wings did not start falling off Beech T-34's until some idiots founded a "wanna
be a military dog fighter" club, and yanked well over 9 G's on the aircraft
multiple MULTIPLE times until POOF .. the wing off light came on. And these
were on aircraft built in the 50's. Something I have always feared is this
kind of nonsense being repeated, but this time with YAK-52's for example, and
yanking on them until a wing eventually fails. P.S. I talked to a man who paid
the money for that experience, and his comment was that during one pull by
the IP, he blacked out, when he regained sight and brain activity, he saw the
recording G meter reading "9".
I think that the best way to learn anything about good aerobatics takes a coach
sitting on the ground with a radio in his hand. I start loops in the YAK-50
from a minimum of 140 MPH or above and when I come out the bottom and feel my
own wake turbulence, that is a plus. Still need a coach though and a better
loop is from 160 mph. The YAK-50 has more energy and maintains it better than
a CJ-6. But then the CJ was not a purpose built aerobatic mount. I am clearly
stirring the pot here! :-)
All that said, I by and large agree with everything Walt said! We just have had
different experiences in our lifetimes. There is no wrong or right intended.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2019 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: G meter, when do you use it?
With regard to Michael's and Mark's latest posts on this subject I have to both
agree and disagree so here goes.
The only "constant G" maneuver I can think of is a level turn. Well described
by Michael.
In slightly over 62 years of owning and flying ex-military training aircraft I
can not recall any being factory equipped with a "G" meter. That includes the
Fairchild PT26 (Cornell), Ryan PT22, Chipmunk, NA Harvard and T6 and finally
the CJ6.
Mark quite likely is correct regarding the T34 Mentor but I suspect Beechcraft
has been a little gun-shy over the years due to a seeming inability to keep the
wings from falling off (and not just the T34).
The first aircraft I installed a "G" meter in was the Harvard 4 (the last and best
of the series). My all time favorite for 30 years, did the local airshow
circuit for many years and held both FAA and Transport Canada Aerobatic and Formation
competency certificates (before ICAS).
I fully agree with Michael's final comment (though probably directed to
myself) regarding instruction. However when I started teaching myself
aerobatics an aerobatic instructor simply did not exist at least in my area at
the time (1955).
I had purchased a series of manuals published in the 1940's by the US Civil Aeronautics
Administration (now FAA) on all aspects of the US Civil Pilot Training
Program. One had a very extensive section on aerobatics. Like Mark, I scared
the s*&t out of myself a few times but somehow survived.
The aircraft we are discussing are all in the "standard" aerobatic category with
operational "G" limits of +6 and -3. One item that may not be well known is
that these limits apply only when the wings are symmetrically loaded. Maneuvers
like a rolling pullout are limited to max. of +4 "G". As an old guy flying
an old aircraft my limit is 4 "G" for everything.
In addition unlike competition aerobatic aircraft we have no inverted fuel and
oil systems. In the Harvard/T6 which has a float type carburetor the engine will
sign off in approx. 6 - 8 sec. of negative "G". Not so in the
CJ6 which employs a pressure carb. In either aircraft the oil pressure is gone
almost instantly with any negative "G". So zero "G" may be acceptable in the
CJ for 2 - 3 sec.
but you should avoid negative like the plague.
Michael's description of the loop is basically correct but I think a little
misleading. Yes; start with a 4 "G" pull to the vertical, forget the "G"
meter and continue to pull! Your airspeed is heading for the toilet and the "G"
loading is going or gone. As you approach the top move the stick very smoothly
forward to sail over the top at zero "G", not +1, for about 1 - 2 sec. then
start the pull for home. Now, if you like, you can look at the "G" meter again.
When you level out at your entry altitude and your entry speed ( I use 160 kts
for the CJ) and your "G" meter shows exactly +4 and zero you have just
completed a perfectly round loop. Will take a while to get there and a
smoke system will help a bunch. If you are programmed (as I was) to
American propellor rotation
you may have to relearn how to pull straight up!
Walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Foster
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: G meter, when do you use it?
--> <michaelfoster@bellsouth.net>
Is there really such a thing as a constant g maneuver? Think of a 60 degree aob
steep turn. It is by definition a 2 g level turn. Can you fly it at a constant
2 g? Maybe if you are Bob Hoover, but us mortals have to adjust the g and bank
to stay level. Vertical maneuvers are the same. They start with a gradual pull
to 4 g, which decreases near the vertical to about 1 g over the top and gradually
increases again going down. The g meter teaches muscle memory and is useful
only to set the nose for the first and last quarter of the maneuver. Get
some instruction before teaching yourself bad habits.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 12, 2019, at 14:02, Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Perhaps the answer to that question may be: -- In comparing your "G"
> meter reading after completion of a maneuver with a ground observer's
> remarks (or video) and your own impressions of the maneuver's quality.
>
> Walt
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV USMC MAG 14
> (US)
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 9:13 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: G meter, when do you use it?
>
> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> If I understand the question correctly, usually when learning to
> perform a constant G maneuver. Honestly not sure what you meant by
> "take the most out of your G meter?"
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] on behalf of motoadve
> [motoadve@racsa.co.cr]
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 12:17 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Yak-List: G meter, when do you use it?
>
>
> When and how do you take the most out of your G meter?
>
> --------
> www.Backcountry182.com<http://www.backcountry182.com/>
> Cessna 182 P
> CJ -6
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488677#488677
>
>
> ---
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: G meter, when do you use it? |
" An interesting thought here, with no G meter how do you know that you have come
close to or exceeded the maximum rated G load specified by the manufacturer?
Hmmm. "
An interesting question for CJ drivers what is the manufactures limit ? Is there
a written Chinese reference ?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488828#488828
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| Subject: | Re: G meter, when do you use it? |
Good question for Doug.
Doug do you know the Chinese published acro limits ?
Mark
N621CJ
On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 5:46 PM Ttail <ttail@internode.on.net> wrote:
>
> " An interesting thought here, with no G meter how do you know that you
> have come close to or exceeded the maximum rated G load specified by the
> manufacturer? Hmmm. "
>
> An interesting question for CJ drivers what is the manufactures limit ? Is
> there a written Chinese reference ?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488828#488828
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Prop won't slow below 70% |
Gents:
Thank you for your comments. My prop is set to 14.5 degrees, not 16.
The prop cycles properly on the ground using the proper runup procedure quoted
below. It attains 99% RPM at full power and, after pulling throttle to 70%, then
cycling prop to minimum, the RPM drops to 53%.
>From Task Card 204:
"NOTE: The adjustment is regarded to be completed, if with throttle fully open
and the governor control lever set to the low pitch stop, the engine gains a speed
of 99 % (2900 r/min) and when the lever is shifted to the high pitch from
nominal rating II 70 % (2050 r/min), the speed of rotation drops drastically
to 53 %."
In cruise flight, with MP at 6.4, the RPM does not drop below 70% even with the
prop lever back at the stop.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488834#488834
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Prop won't slow below 70% |
Hi Gil;
Question 1; In cruise at 640 mm/hg what happens when you push the nose
down? Does the RPM remain at 2030 or increase?
Question 2: Have you by any chance replaced the pitch change piston assy.
with a Chinese one?
Walt
-----Original Message-----
From: glipaz
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2019 7:23 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Prop won't slow below 70%
Gents:
Thank you for your comments. My prop is set to 14.5 degrees, not 16.
The prop cycles properly on the ground using the proper runup procedure
quoted below. It attains 99% RPM at full power and, after pulling throttle
to 70%, then cycling prop to minimum, the RPM drops to 53%.
>From Task Card 204:
"NOTE: The adjustment is regarded to be completed, if with throttle fully
open and the governor control lever set to the low pitch stop, the engine
gains a speed of 99 % (2900 r/min) and when the lever is shifted to the high
pitch from nominal rating II 70 % (2050 r/min), the speed of rotation drops
drastically to 53 %."
In cruise flight, with MP at 6.4, the RPM does not drop below 70% even with
the prop lever back at the stop.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488834#488834
---
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Prop won't slow below 70% |
Hi Walt. Pitching forward causes RPM to increase.
Re pitch change piston, I assume you mean the piston in the hub. I bought it with
the hub and assume it is standard Russian.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488837#488837
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