Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:52 AM - Re: Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the base. (A. Dennis Savarese)
2. 05:23 AM - Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the base.? (Justin Drafts)
3. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the base. (Cliff Coy)
4. 07:05 AM - Re: Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the base. (John B)
5. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the base. (doug sapp)
6. 11:29 AM - Re: Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the base. (doug sapp)
7. 12:16 PM - Re: Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the base. (Mark Pennington)
8. 02:25 PM - Yak52 crash in Poland ()
9. 02:29 PM - Re: Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the base. (Walter Lannon)
10. 02:44 PM - Re: Yak52 crash in Poland (Greg Wrobel)
11. 02:58 PM - Re: Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the base. (Mark Pennington)
12. 03:27 PM - Re: Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the base. (Tom Elliott)
13. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the base. (Tom Elliott)
14. 06:25 PM - Re: Yak52 crash in Poland (Vic)
15. 11:24 PM - Looking for metric anchor nut plates (Jon Boede)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the |
base.
Matt,A torque spec is there for a reason.=C2- The "feels about right" sp
ec is not in the spec sheet.=C2- Over-torquing is definitely not a good t
hing.=C2- You may want to reconsider your torquing technique in the futur
e.
The M14 torque specs are no where near 35 ft/lbs.=C2- That is actually 25
% more than the high end of the spec.=C2- The torque specs are as posted
on this subject.Dennis
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 1:57:39 AM EDT, woodja51 <mwuillemin@mac.com
> wrote:
I bought an electronic torque wrench that beeps when you get close to and t
he again when at the correct torque. And used the Chinese spanner with it a
ttached. I took my=C2- nuts up on paper gaskets ( there are aluminium one
s there it seems as standard ?)=C2- to 35 =C3=A2=82=AC=CB=9C lbs which
is closer to the values on the m14 I think. They should always be wet/ lub
ed for torque setting I believe. I might have slightly over torqued them bu
t would rather be a little in the high side. Matt
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489701#489701
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the base.? |
Very good info to eavesdrop on...
What sort of material is best for stud lubrication during torquing?
These paper washers/gaskets are avail new?
Thanks - again, good info that I'll file away---
Justin
N280NC
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 9:04 AM Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
> This is actually a very serious problem, with the HS6A engine in
> particularly.
>
> The HS6A is unique to the series in that the crankcase is shot-peened in
> the cylinder mounting flange area. This process is used to inhibit crack
> development in highly stressed areas by effectively increasing the surfac
e
> area.
>
> Strangely enough the process is not used on the M14P crankcase even thoug
h
> the operational temperature and stresses are, in all probability,
> considerably
> higher. This leads one to suspect that the Chinese alum. alloy
> manufacturing and heat treating processes may leave something to be desir
ed.
>
> A few years ago a gentleman from Namibia posted a photo of a cracked HS6A
> crankcase where the crack surfaces were displaced from each other by
> something like 10 mm. A sure sign of enormous internal stress relieved b
y
> the crack. Hopefully that was a one-time occurrence.
>
> In any case shot peening is used and with it comes a new problem.
> The cylinder hold down studs are possibly the highest cyclically loaded
> threaded fasteners on the engine. They need to be stretched on
> installation to a point within their elastic limit where the operational
> tensile loading is absorbed without further stretching. Torqueing is a
> quick and dirty method of establishing that point.
>
> By design shot peening produces a rough surface. Whether too rough for
> the seating surface of the cylinder flange I don=99t, at this point
, really
> know though I suspect not. The factory obviously is concerned and
> =9Ccorrects=9D this with a paper shim. This of course over t
ime disintegrates
> leaving you with a loose cylinder and possibly studs stretched beyond the
> elastic limit, cracked or broken and a cylinder about to depart.
>
> Notes on torque: The factory wrench for this job, Chinese or Russian,
> provides absolutely no means to measure the torque value. I weld a nut i
n
> the appropriate location. See attached pic.
> I use a LUBRICATED 300 to 320 in./lb. torque.
>
> Walt
>
>
> *From:* A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
> *Sent:* Monday, June 17, 2019 2:20 PM
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Yak-List: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts
> at the base.?
>
> 304-330 in/lbs or 25-28 ft/lbs.
> Dennis
>
> On Monday, June 17, 2019, 4:56:50 PM EDT, motoadve <motoadve@racsa.co.cr>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Had a big oil leak, too big to keep flying, used some dye, and it showed
> it was coming from the base of cyl #4 , we checked tightness of the nuts
> and are loose.
> Glad I did not ignored this oil leak.
>
> Does anyone know the torque value needed for the nuts at the base of the
> cylinder?
>
> --------
> www.Backcountry182.com
> Cessna 182 P
> CJ -6
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489688#489688
>
>
> -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-L; - MATRONICS W
EB
> FORUMS -
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the |
base.
Common torques are attached.
COMMON TORQUES.pdf
<https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_E0KXhypQtgeVlLektQbEl1T3M/view?usp=dr
ive_web>
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 6:56 AM A. Dennis Savarese <
dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Matt,
> A torque spec is there for a reason. The "feels about right" spec is not
> in the spec sheet. Over-torquing is definitely not a good thing. You ma
y
> want to reconsider your torquing technique in the future.
>
> The M14 torque specs are no where near 35 ft/lbs. That is actually 25%
> more than the high end of the spec. The torque specs are as posted on th
is
> subject.
> Dennis
>
> On Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 1:57:39 AM EDT, woodja51 <mwuillemin@mac.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> I bought an electronic torque wrench that beeps when you get close to and
> the again when at the correct torque. And used the Chinese spanner with i
t
> attached. I took my nuts up on paper gaskets ( there are aluminium ones
> there it seems as standard ?) to 35 =C3=A2=82=AC=CB=9C lbs which is c
loser to the values
> on the m14 I think. They should always be wet/ lubed for torque setting I
> believe. I might have slightly over torqued them but would rather be a
> little in the high side. Matt
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489701#489701
>
>
> Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> http://ww=================
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contr==============
=========
>
>
--
Clifford Coy
Border Air Ltd.
C-Parts Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822 TEL
802-868-0035 FAX (MANUAL RECEIVE)
Skype: Cliff.Coy
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the |
base.
Can someone provide a picture of the cylinder base nut wrench?
Thank you!
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 9:03 AM Cliff Coy <cliff.coy@gmail.com> wrote:
> Common torques are attached.
>
> COMMON TORQUES.pdf
> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_E0KXhypQtgeVlLektQbEl1T3M/view?usp=
drive_web>
>
> On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 6:56 AM A. Dennis Savarese <
> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> Matt,
>> A torque spec is there for a reason. The "feels about right" spec is no
t
>> in the spec sheet. Over-torquing is definitely not a good thing. You m
ay
>> want to reconsider your torquing technique in the future.
>>
>> The M14 torque specs are no where near 35 ft/lbs. That is actually 25%
>> more than the high end of the spec. The torque specs are as posted on t
his
>> subject.
>> Dennis
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 1:57:39 AM EDT, woodja51 <mwuillemin@mac.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I bought an electronic torque wrench that beeps when you get close to an
d
>> the again when at the correct torque. And used the Chinese spanner with
it
>> attached. I took my nuts up on paper gaskets ( there are aluminium ones
>> there it seems as standard ?) to 35 =C3=A2=82=AC=CB=9C lbs which is
closer to the values
>> on the m14 I think. They should always be wet/ lubed for torque setting
I
>> believe. I might have slightly over torqued them but would rather be a
>> little in the high side. Matt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489701#489701
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>> http://ww=================
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> http://www.matronics.com/contr==============
=========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Clifford Coy
> Border Air Ltd.
> C-Parts Inc.
> 629 Airport Rd.
> Swanton, VT 05488
> 802-868-2822 TEL
> 802-868-0035 FAX (MANUAL RECEIVE)
> Skype: Cliff.Coy
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the |
base.
I do believe the question was asked but maybe missed by some of us.
What is "wet" torque? What exactly does this mean? If I interpret the cut
n past from the net correctly then torquing the cly base studs to 304 to
330 inch pounds WET is way excessive.
>From :
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.html
When a bolt is lubricated - less torque is required to achieve bolt axial
load or tension. Reduction of torques for lubricated vs. dry bolts are
indicated in the table below.
LubricantTorque Reduction
*(%)*
No lube 0
Graphite 50 - 55
White Grease 35 - 45
SAE 30 oil 35 - 45
SAE 40 oil 30 - 40
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 3:56 AM A. Dennis Savarese <
dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Matt,
> A torque spec is there for a reason. The "feels about right" spec is not
> in the spec sheet. Over-torquing is definitely not a good thing. You ma
y
> want to reconsider your torquing technique in the future.
>
> The M14 torque specs are no where near 35 ft/lbs. That is actually 25%
> more than the high end of the spec. The torque specs are as posted on th
is
> subject.
> Dennis
>
> On Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 1:57:39 AM EDT, woodja51 <mwuillemin@mac.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> I bought an electronic torque wrench that beeps when you get close to and
> the again when at the correct torque. And used the Chinese spanner with i
t
> attached. I took my nuts up on paper gaskets ( there are aluminium ones
> there it seems as standard ?) to 35 =C3=A2=82=AC=CB=9C lbs which is c
loser to the values
> on the m14 I think. They should always be wet/ lubed for torque setting I
> believe. I might have slightly over torqued them but would rather be a
> little in the high side. Matt
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489701#489701
>
>
> Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> http://ww=================
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contr==============
=========
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the |
base.
Also, from Mark Pennington, this is interesting:
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?tab=rm&zx=vl5ywvgzpugl#inbox/FMfcgxwC
hJkxdFPJVWFSFZcLkGTCcGrW?compose=DmwnWrRnXVSjzwCjrftdqMTFtpZNSfCdPxQgNrBw
DsFKJDZfWGgpgdvcrDhTRrHnqLgLwBlQDDDL&projector=1
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 10:52 AM doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
> I do believe the question was asked but maybe missed by some of us.
> What is "wet" torque? What exactly does this mean? If I interpret the
> cut n past from the net correctly then torquing the cly base studs to 304
> to 330 inch pounds WET is way excessive.
> From :
> https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.html
>
> When a bolt is lubricated - less torque is required to achieve bolt axial
> load or tension. Reduction of torques for lubricated vs. dry bolts are
> indicated in the table below.
> LubricantTorque Reduction
> *(%)*
> No lube 0
> Graphite 50 - 55
> White Grease 35 - 45
> SAE 30 oil 35 - 45
> SAE 40 oil 30 - 40
>
> On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 3:56 AM A. Dennis Savarese <
> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> Matt,
>> A torque spec is there for a reason. The "feels about right" spec is no
t
>> in the spec sheet. Over-torquing is definitely not a good thing. You m
ay
>> want to reconsider your torquing technique in the future.
>>
>> The M14 torque specs are no where near 35 ft/lbs. That is actually 25%
>> more than the high end of the spec. The torque specs are as posted on t
his
>> subject.
>> Dennis
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 1:57:39 AM EDT, woodja51 <mwuillemin@mac.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I bought an electronic torque wrench that beeps when you get close to an
d
>> the again when at the correct torque. And used the Chinese spanner with
it
>> attached. I took my nuts up on paper gaskets ( there are aluminium ones
>> there it seems as standard ?) to 35 =C3=A2=82=AC=CB=9C lbs which is
closer to the values
>> on the m14 I think. They should always be wet/ lubed for torque setting
I
>> believe. I might have slightly over torqued them but would rather be a
>> little in the high side. Matt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489701#489701
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>> http://ww=================
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> http://www.matronics.com/contr==============
=========
>>
>>
>>
>>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the |
base.
The video I sent to Doug didn't work on the email. I have attached the
link here.
Basically the video illustrates that torque is directly related to clamping
force. Most torque specs that I have seen are related to a lubricated bolt
or fastener. You will see that achieving a torque value does not guarantee
clamping force. Clamping force is the value for a bolt or fastness in an
assembly or attached part. Torque can be seen as the resistance to a nut
rotational force, not tightness.
Good illustration. You can apply this information to your own work on your
plane as needed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O96AUlIBkU8
Mark Pennington
N621CJ
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 2:33 PM doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
> Also, from Mark Pennington, this is interesting:
>
> https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?tab=rm&zx=vl5ywvgzpugl#inbox/FMfcgx
wChJkxdFPJVWFSFZcLkGTCcGrW?compose=DmwnWrRnXVSjzwCjrftdqMTFtpZNSfCdPxQgNr
BwDsFKJDZfWGgpgdvcrDhTRrHnqLgLwBlQDDDL&projector=1
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 10:52 AM doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I do believe the question was asked but maybe missed by some of us.
>> What is "wet" torque? What exactly does this mean? If I interpret the
>> cut n past from the net correctly then torquing the cly base studs to 30
4
>> to 330 inch pounds WET is way excessive.
>> From :
>> https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.htm
l
>>
>> When a bolt is lubricated - less torque is required to achieve bolt axia
l
>> load or tension. Reduction of torques for lubricated vs. dry bolts are
>> indicated in the table below.
>> LubricantTorque Reduction
>> *(%)*
>> No lube 0
>> Graphite 50 - 55
>> White Grease 35 - 45
>> SAE 30 oil 35 - 45
>> SAE 40 oil 30 - 40
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 3:56 AM A. Dennis Savarese <
>> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Matt,
>>> A torque spec is there for a reason. The "feels about right" spec is
>>> not in the spec sheet. Over-torquing is definitely not a good thing.
You
>>> may want to reconsider your torquing technique in the future.
>>>
>>> The M14 torque specs are no where near 35 ft/lbs. That is actually 25%
>>> more than the high end of the spec. The torque specs are as posted on
this
>>> subject.
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 1:57:39 AM EDT, woodja51 <mwuillemin@mac.com
>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I bought an electronic torque wrench that beeps when you get close to
>>> and the again when at the correct torque. And used the Chinese spanner
with
>>> it attached. I took my nuts up on paper gaskets ( there are aluminium
ones
>>> there it seems as standard ?) to 35 =C3=A2=82=AC=CB=9C lbs which is
closer to the values
>>> on the m14 I think. They should always be wet/ lubed for torque setting
I
>>> believe. I might have slightly over torqued them but would rather be a
>>> little in the high side. Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489701#489701
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>>> http://ww=================
>>> http://forums.matronics.com
>>> http://www.matronics.com/contr=============
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Yak52 crash in Poland |
Hi
There was a fatal yak52 crash in Poland this last week-end, very tragic
for all involved.
I=99m just curious on what could have gone wrong and why the pilot
didn=99t manage to get out of it, looks to me like a normal spin,
not flat, but also looks like ailerons are not where they should be to
get out of this spin.?
Here is one of the links to the video
https://youtu.be/laHVmAmuY6U
Michael Wikstrom
Cannes, France
Yak-18T F-HYAC
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the |
base.
Very true Mark;
And why I included the note that torque is a quick and dirty method. Real
ly critical fasteners eg: the pinch bolt holding our engine crank throws i
n alignment, the connecting rod bolts in aircraft engines like the Merlin,
hub assy. bolts in large engine propellors, etc. do not use a torque value
at all.
In these and other cases the amount of bolt stretch is directly measured to
a specified dimension.
However, the torque method is the basic standard and I will quote from the
P & W 985/1340 Overhaul Manual =9C Unless otherwise specified in this
Manual all nut, bolt and screw torques should be obtained with thread lubr
icants=9D
Specifically for the cylinder flange nuts =9C300 lb/in with lubrican
t.=9D They do not specify a lubricant but I can assure you after 60
+ years in the business it is aircraft engine oil.
300 lb./in. is the specific value. There is no need for any tolerance and n
one is given, The nut is locked to the stud by a simple sheet metal nut de
signed for this purpose called a =9Cpalnut=9D. No f$*(# ing a
round with tab washers.
The only info I have seen re: our engines is a torque table from M14P. com
showing a specific 304 lb/in which I now see has been modified with a max.
of 330 lb/in added. No doubt to accommodate the %&#hole tab washers.
The similarity in torque values for quite different engines is interesting
but not particularly surprising. The stud size is 0.018=9D inches l
arger on our engines with a slightly coarser thread which translates to ver
y similar thread root dia. Stud strength is likely to the same aviation s
tandard. The major difference is simply the number of studs.
Walt
From: Mark Pennington
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts a
t the base.
The video I sent to Doug didn't work on the email. I have attached the lin
k here.
Basically the video illustrates that torque is directly related to clamping
force. Most torque specs that I have seen are related to a lubricated bol
t or fastener. You will see that achieving a torque value does not guarant
ee clamping force. Clamping force is the value for a bolt or fastness in a
n assembly or attached part. Torque can be seen as the resistance to a nut
rotational force, not tightness.
Good illustration. You can apply this information to your own work on your
plane as needed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O96AUlIBkU8
Mark Pennington
N621CJ
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 2:33 PM doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, from Mark Pennington, this is interesting:
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?tab=rm&zx=vl5ywvgzpugl#inbox/FMfcgx
wChJkxdFPJVWFSFZcLkGTCcGrW?compose=DmwnWrRnXVSjzwCjrftdqMTFtpZNSfCdPxQgNr
BwDsFKJDZfWGgpgdvcrDhTRrHnqLgLwBlQDDDL&projector=1
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 10:52 AM doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
I do believe the question was asked but maybe missed by some of us.
What is "wet" torque? What exactly does this mean? If I interpret the
cut n past from the net correctly then torquing the cly base studs to 304
to 330 inch pounds WET is way excessive.
From :https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1
693.html
When a bolt is lubricated - less torque is required to achieve bolt axi
al load or tension. Reduction of torques for lubricated vs. dry bolts are i
ndicated in the table below.
Lubricant Torque Reduction
(%)
No lube 0
Graphite 50 - 55
White Grease 35 - 45
SAE 30 oil 35 - 45
SAE 40 oil 30 - 40
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 3:56 AM A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bells
outh.net> wrote:
Matt,
A torque spec is there for a reason. The "feels about right" spec is
not in the spec sheet. Over-torquing is definitely not a good thing. You
may want to reconsider your torquing technique in the future.
The M14 torque specs are no where near 35 ft/lbs. That is actually 2
5% more than the high end of the spec. The torque specs are as posted on t
his subject.
Dennis
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 1:57:39 AM EDT, woodja51 <mwuillemin@mac.c
om> wrote:
I bought an electronic torque wrench that beeps when you get close to
and the again when at the correct torque. And used the Chinese spanner wit
h it attached. I took my nuts up on paper gaskets ( there are aluminium on
es there it seems as standard ?) to 35 =C3=A2=82=AC=CB=9C lbs which is
closer to the values on the m14 I think. They should always be wet/ lubed f
or torque setting I believe. I might have slightly over torqued them but wo
uld rather be a little in the high side. Matt
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489701#489701
Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
http://ww=================
http://forums.matronics.com
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|
| Subject: | Re: Yak52 crash in Poland |
I saw another video and the ailerons are not neutral during the spin but
around 60 meters (200 feet) the ailerons appear to be neutral, the elevator
is still full up indicating the aircraft is still stalled but he stops the
spin to the right, gets the aircraft neutral and begins a slight left turn
before impacting the water. It appears he began the recovery too low in
order to complete the maneuver. More altitude and he would have
successfully recovered.
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 16:30 <michael@wikstrom.cc> wrote:
> Hi
>
> There was a fatal yak52 crash in Poland this last week-end, very tragic
> for all involved.
>
>
> I=99m just curious on what could have gone wrong and why the pilot
didn=99t
> manage to get out of it, looks to me like a normal spin, not flat, but al
so
> looks like ailerons are not where they should be to get out of this spin.
?
>
>
> Here is one of the links to the video
>
> https://youtu.be/laHVmAmuY6U
>
>
> Michael Wikstrom
>
> Cannes, France
>
> Yak-18T F-HYAC
>
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the |
base.
Walt
I agree torque is the normal standard and every race engine that I
assembled along the way used a little product called "Assembly Lube"
apply the lube before the tightening phase of assembly. I am sure motor
oil on our engines is the standard as you suggest. I don't have the
experience you have by far. I have used the same oil I put in the crank
case of the M14 when I assemble things.
Question: I understand the nut welded to the special tool for the cylinder
head nuts. Does that provide an accurate torque value being offset like
it is. ? Or in your experience is the difference negligible? I can see
it would give you consistency for sure.
And yes, I will be checking my cylinder head nuts the next time both cowls
are off. I had contacted Dennis and he said the same thing, weld a nut to
your tool......... Thanks for all of the good info..
Learn something new everyday.
Mark
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 5:34 PM Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Very true Mark;
>
> And why I included the note that torque is a quick and dirty method.
> Really critical fasteners eg: the pinch bolt holding our engine crank
> throws in alignment, the connecting rod bolts in aircraft engines like th
e
> Merlin, hub assy. bolts in large engine propellors, etc. do not use a
> torque value at all.
> In these and other cases the amount of bolt stretch is directly measured
> to a specified dimension.
>
> However, the torque method is the basic standard and I will quote from th
e
> P & W 985/1340 Overhaul Manual =9C Unless otherwise specified in th
is Manual
> all nut, bolt and screw torques should be obtained with thread lubricants
=9D
> Specifically for the cylinder flange nuts =9C300 lb/in with lubric
ant.=9D
> They do not specify a lubricant but I can assure you after 60 + years in
> the business it is aircraft engine oil.
>
> 300 lb./in. is the specific value. There is no need for any tolerance and
> none is given, The nut is locked to the stud by a simple sheet metal nut
> designed for this purpose called a =9Cpalnut=9D. No f$*(# i
ng around with tab
> washers.
>
> The only info I have seen re: our engines is a torque table from M14P. co
m
> showing a specific 304 lb/in which I now see has been modified with a max
.
> of 330 lb/in added. No doubt to accommodate the %&#hole tab washers.
>
> The similarity in torque values for quite different engines is interestin
g
> but not particularly surprising. The stud size is 0.018=9D inches
larger on
> our engines with a slightly coarser thread which translates to very simil
ar
> thread root dia. Stud strength is likely to the same aviation standard.
> The major difference is simply the number of studs.
>
> Walt
>
> *From:* Mark Pennington <pennington.construction.inc.1@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 18, 2019 12:15 PM
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Yak-List: Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the
> nuts at the base.
>
> The video I sent to Doug didn't work on the email. I have attached the
> link here.
>
> Basically the video illustrates that torque is directly related to
> clamping force. Most torque specs that I have seen are related to a
> lubricated bolt or fastener. You will see that achieving a torque value
> does not guarantee clamping force. Clamping force is the value for a bol
t
> or fastness in an assembly or attached part. Torque can be seen as the
> resistance to a nut rotational force, not tightness.
>
> Good illustration. You can apply this information to your own work on
> your plane as needed.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O96AUlIBkU8
>
> Mark Pennington
> N621CJ
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 2:33 PM doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Also, from Mark Pennington, this is interesting:
>>
>> https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?tab=rm&zx=vl5ywvgzpugl#inbox/FMfcg
xwChJkxdFPJVWFSFZcLkGTCcGrW?compose=DmwnWrRnXVSjzwCjrftdqMTFtpZNSfCdPxQgN
rBwDsFKJDZfWGgpgdvcrDhTRrHnqLgLwBlQDDDL&projector=1
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 10:52 AM doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote
:
>>
>>> I do believe the question was asked but maybe missed by some of us.
>>> What is "wet" torque? What exactly does this mean? If I interpret the
>>> cut n past from the net correctly then torquing the cly base studs to 3
04
>>> to 330 inch pounds WET is way excessive.
>>> From :
>>> https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.ht
ml
>>>
>>> When a bolt is lubricated - less torque is required to achieve bolt
>>> axial load or tension. Reduction of torques for lubricated vs. dry bolt
s
>>> are indicated in the table below.
>>> Lubricant Torque Reduction
>>> *(%)*
>>> No lube 0
>>> Graphite 50 - 55
>>> White Grease 35 - 45
>>> SAE 30 oil 35 - 45
>>> SAE 40 oil 30 - 40
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 3:56 AM A. Dennis Savarese <
>>> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Matt,
>>>> A torque spec is there for a reason. The "feels about right" spec is
>>>> not in the spec sheet. Over-torquing is definitely not a good thing.
You
>>>> may want to reconsider your torquing technique in the future.
>>>>
>>>> The M14 torque specs are no where near 35 ft/lbs. That is actually 25
%
>>>> more than the high end of the spec. The torque specs are as posted on
this
>>>> subject.
>>>> Dennis
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 1:57:39 AM EDT, woodja51 <mwuillemin@mac.co
m>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I bought an electronic torque wrench that beeps when you get close to
>>>> and the again when at the correct torque. And used the Chinese spanner
with
>>>> it attached. I took my nuts up on paper gaskets ( there are aluminium
ones
>>>> there it seems as standard ?) to 35 =C3=A2=82=AC=CB=9C lbs which i
s closer to the values
>>>> on the m14 I think. They should always be wet/ lubed for torque settin
g I
>>>> believe. I might have slightly over torqued them but would rather be a
>>>> little in the high side. Matt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489701#489701
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>>>> http://ww=================
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> http://www.matronics.com/contr=============
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
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Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the |
base.
In reply to the earlier thread on the cylinder nuts and gaskets. The two st
ock Housai engines
I have both had aluminum gaskets under the cylinder=99s. During an ex
haust valve regrind
the re attachment kits I got had paper gaskets. After approximately ? four
years / 200 hours
the first one to fail #9 . I caught it early because of a cyl base oil leak
the gasket had failed and
the nuts were loose. I pulled it cyl and replaced the gasket with an alumin
um one from my parts
Eng. I check the torque on the other two jugs # 4 & 7. they were ok. In ano
ther approx. 25 hours
at the Bremerton WA. form clinic the #4 cyl gasket failed completely and al
l 8 nuts and lock tabs
departed in flight. Only the cowling prevented #4 from departing the aircra
ft. I repaired it and did
not use any gasket only a new O-ring and Hymolar sealant. Found # 7 was als
o getting loose removed
the paper gasket and used Hymolar. Re torqued of all cyl with aluminum ga
skets were tight when checked
Also used RED LOC TIGHT and lock tabs on all nuts.
I would recommend that any paper cyl base gaskets be removed. And use Hymol
ar and / or aluminum gaskets
Tom Elliott
CJ-6A NX63727
777 Quartz Ave
PMB 7004
Sandy Valley NV.
89019
Cell 541-297-5497
N13472@AOL.COM
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@mat
ronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts a
t the base.
Very true Mark;
And why I included the note that torque is a quick and dirty method. Real
ly critical fasteners eg: the pinch bolt holding our engine crank throws i
n alignment, the connecting rod bolts in aircraft engines like the Merlin,
hub assy. bolts in large engine propellors, etc. do not use a torque value
at all.
In these and other cases the amount of bolt stretch is directly measured to
a specified dimension.
However, the torque method is the basic standard and I will quote from the
P & W 985/1340 Overhaul Manual =9C Unless otherwise specified in this
Manual all nut, bolt and screw torques should be obtained with thread lubr
icants=9D
Specifically for the cylinder flange nuts =9C300 lb/in with lubrican
t.=9D They do not specify a lubricant but I can assure you after 60
+ years in the business it is aircraft engine oil.
300 lb./in. is the specific value. There is no need for any tolerance and n
one is given, The nut is locked to the stud by a simple sheet metal nut de
signed for this purpose called a =9Cpalnut=9D. No f$*(# ing a
round with tab washers.
The only info I have seen re: our engines is a torque table from M14P. com
showing a specific 304 lb/in which I now see has been modified with a max.
of 330 lb/in added. No doubt to accommodate the %&#hole tab washers.
The similarity in torque values for quite different engines is interesting
but not particularly surprising. The stud size is 0.018=9D inches l
arger on our engines with a slightly coarser thread which translates to ver
y similar thread root dia. Stud strength is likely to the same aviation s
tandard. The major difference is simply the number of studs.
Walt
From: Mark Pennington <mailto:pennington.construction.inc.1@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts a
t the base.
The video I sent to Doug didn't work on the email. I have attached the lin
k here.
Basically the video illustrates that torque is directly related to clamping
force. Most torque specs that I have seen are related to a lubricated bol
t or fastener. You will see that achieving a torque value does not guarant
ee clamping force. Clamping force is the value for a bolt or fastness in a
n assembly or attached part. Torque can be seen as the resistance to a nut
rotational force, not tightness.
Good illustration. You can apply this information to your own work on your
plane as needed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O96AUlIBkU8
Mark Pennington
N621CJ
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 2:33 PM doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, from Mark Pennington, this is interesting:
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?tab=rm <https://mail.google.com/mail/u/
0/?tab=rm&zx=vl5ywvgzpugl#inbox/FMfcgxwChJkxdFPJVWFSFZcLkGTCcGrW?compos
e=DmwnWrRnXVSjzwCjrftdqMTFtpZNSfCdPxQgNrBwDsFKJDZfWGgpgdvcrDhTRrHnqLgLwBl
QDDDL&projector=1> &zx=vl5ywvgzpugl#inbox/FMfcgxwChJkxdFPJVWFSFZcLkGTCc
GrW?compose=DmwnWrRnXVSjzwCjrftdqMTFtpZNSfCdPxQgNrBwDsFKJDZfWGgpgdvcrDhTR
rHnqLgLwBlQDDDL&projector=1
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 10:52 AM doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
I do believe the question was asked but maybe missed by some of us.
What is "wet" torque? What exactly does this mean? If I interpret the cut
n past from the net correctly then torquing the cly base studs to 304 to 3
30 inch pounds WET is way excessive.
>From :https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.
html
When a bolt is lubricated - less torque is required to achieve bolt axial l
oad or tension. Reduction of torques for lubricated vs. dry bolts are indic
ated in the table below.
Lubricant
Torque Reduction
(%)
No lube
0
Graphite
50 - 55
White Grease
35 - 45
SAE 30 oil
35 - 45
SAE 40 oil
30 - 40
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 3:56 AM A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth
=2Enet> wrote:
Matt,
A torque spec is there for a reason. The "feels about right" spec is not i
n the spec sheet. Over-torquing is definitely not a good thing. You may w
ant to reconsider your torquing technique in the future.
The M14 torque specs are no where near 35 ft/lbs. That is actually 25% mor
e than the high end of the spec. The torque specs are as posted on this su
bject.
Dennis
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 1:57:39 AM EDT, woodja51 <mwuillemin@mac.com> wr
ote:
I bought an electronic torque wrench that beeps when you get close to and t
he again when at the correct torque. And used the Chinese spanner with it a
ttached. I took my nuts up on paper gaskets ( there are aluminium ones the
re it seems as standard ?) to 35 =C3=A2=82=AC=CB=9C lbs which is closer
to the values on the m14 I think. They should always be wet/ lubed for tor
que setting I believe. I might have slightly over torqued them but would ra
ther be a little in the high side. Matt
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489701#489701
Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
http://ww=================
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contr===============
========
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campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
Virus-free. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source
=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> www.avast.com
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Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts at the |
base.
It is not offset. It is on axis with the box end wrench.
Tom Elliott
CJ-6A NX63727
777 Quartz Ave
PMB 7004
Sandy Valley NV.
89019
Cell 541-297-5497
N13472@AOL.COM
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@mat
ronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Pennington
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts a
t the base.
Walt
I agree torque is the normal standard and every race engine that I assemble
d along the way used a little product called "Assembly Lube" apply t
he lube before the tightening phase of assembly. I am sure motor oil on o
ur engines is the standard as you suggest. I don't have the experience yo
u have by far. I have used the same oil I put in the crank case of the M14
when I assemble things.
Question: I understand the nut welded to the special tool for the cylinder
head nuts. Does that provide an accurate torque value being offset like
it is. ? Or in your experience is the difference negligible? I can see i
t would give you consistency for sure.
And yes, I will be checking my cylinder head nuts the next time both cowls
are off. I had contacted Dennis and he said the same thing, weld a nut to
your tool......... Thanks for all of the good info..
Learn something new everyday.
Mark
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 5:34 PM Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
Very true Mark;
And why I included the note that torque is a quick and dirty method. Real
ly critical fasteners eg: the pinch bolt holding our engine crank throws i
n alignment, the connecting rod bolts in aircraft engines like the Merlin,
hub assy. bolts in large engine propellors, etc. do not use a torque value
at all.
In these and other cases the amount of bolt stretch is directly measured to
a specified dimension.
However, the torque method is the basic standard and I will quote from the
P & W 985/1340 Overhaul Manual =9C Unless otherwise specified in this
Manual all nut, bolt and screw torques should be obtained with thread lubr
icants=9D
Specifically for the cylinder flange nuts =9C300 lb/in with lubrican
t.=9D They do not specify a lubricant but I can assure you after 60
+ years in the business it is aircraft engine oil.
300 lb./in. is the specific value. There is no need for any tolerance and n
one is given, The nut is locked to the stud by a simple sheet metal nut de
signed for this purpose called a =9Cpalnut=9D. No f$*(# ing a
round with tab washers.
The only info I have seen re: our engines is a torque table from M14P. com
showing a specific 304 lb/in which I now see has been modified with a max.
of 330 lb/in added. No doubt to accommodate the %&#hole tab washers.
The similarity in torque values for quite different engines is interesting
but not particularly surprising. The stud size is 0.018=9D inches l
arger on our engines with a slightly coarser thread which translates to ver
y similar thread root dia. Stud strength is likely to the same aviation s
tandard. The major difference is simply the number of studs.
Walt
From: Mark Pennington <mailto:pennington.construction.inc.1@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: What is the cylinder torque value for the nuts a
t the base.
The video I sent to Doug didn't work on the email. I have attached the lin
k here.
Basically the video illustrates that torque is directly related to clamping
force. Most torque specs that I have seen are related to a lubricated bol
t or fastener. You will see that achieving a torque value does not guarant
ee clamping force. Clamping force is the value for a bolt or fastness in a
n assembly or attached part. Torque can be seen as the resistance to a nut
rotational force, not tightness.
Good illustration. You can apply this information to your own work on your
plane as needed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O96AUlIBkU8
Mark Pennington
N621CJ
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 2:33 PM doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, from Mark Pennington, this is interesting:
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?tab=rm <https://mail.google.com/mail/u/
0/?tab=rm&zx=vl5ywvgzpugl#inbox/FMfcgxwChJkxdFPJVWFSFZcLkGTCcGrW?compos
e=DmwnWrRnXVSjzwCjrftdqMTFtpZNSfCdPxQgNrBwDsFKJDZfWGgpgdvcrDhTRrHnqLgLwBl
QDDDL&projector=1> &zx=vl5ywvgzpugl#inbox/FMfcgxwChJkxdFPJVWFSFZcLkGTCc
GrW?compose=DmwnWrRnXVSjzwCjrftdqMTFtpZNSfCdPxQgNrBwDsFKJDZfWGgpgdvcrDhTR
rHnqLgLwBlQDDDL&projector=1
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 10:52 AM doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
I do believe the question was asked but maybe missed by some of us.
What is "wet" torque? What exactly does this mean? If I interpret the cut
n past from the net correctly then torquing the cly base studs to 304 to 3
30 inch pounds WET is way excessive.
>From :https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.
html
When a bolt is lubricated - less torque is required to achieve bolt axial l
oad or tension. Reduction of torques for lubricated vs. dry bolts are indic
ated in the table below.
Lubricant
Torque Reduction
(%)
No lube
0
Graphite
50 - 55
White Grease
35 - 45
SAE 30 oil
35 - 45
SAE 40 oil
30 - 40
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 3:56 AM A Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.
net> wrote:
Matt,
A torque spec is there for a reason. The "feels about right" spec is not i
n the spec sheet. Over-torquing is definitely not a good thing. You may w
ant to reconsider your torquing technique in the future.
The M14 torque specs are no where near 35 ft/lbs. That is actually 25% mor
e than the high end of the spec. The torque specs are as posted on this su
bject.
Dennis
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019, 1:57:39 AM EDT, woodja51 <mwuillemin@mac.com> wr
ote:
I bought an electronic torque wrench that beeps when you get close to and t
he again when at the correct torque. And used the Chinese spanner with it a
ttached. I took my nuts up on paper gaskets ( there are aluminium ones the
re it seems as standard ?) to 35 =C3=A2=82=AC=CB=9C lbs which is closer
to the values on the m14 I think. They should always be wet/ lubed for tor
que setting I believe. I might have slightly over torqued them but would ra
ther be a little in the high side. Matt
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489701#489701
Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
http://ww=================
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contr===============
========
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_
campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
Virus-free. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source
=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> www.avast.com
---
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Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Re: Yak52 crash in Poland |
Foreign objects blocking the elevator at the rear of the fuselage after aerobatics.
?? A typical cause for a fatal crash in the 52 .
Vic
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489727#489727
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Looking for metric anchor nut plates |
The M3 anchor nut plates that go on the back of the Grimes wingtip lights were
apparently the wrong size (i.e. not SAE) for the person who put my plane together
initially, so he just screwed the light plates on with sheet metal screws.
I kid you not.
Anybody got a source for these kinds of metric aircraft anchor nut plates? There
are 3 on each wingtip of the type xxo where x is a rivet and o is the M3 nut.
Jon
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