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1. 10:50 AM - Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? (Walter Lannon)
2. 11:49 AM - Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? (Rico Jaeger)
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| Subject: | Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
Hi Mark & Richard;
I too have been wondering which multi-grade oils the Russians used in their
M14P testing. Is there a Russian aviation approved multi-grade oil availa
ble or were the tests done with US manufactured products?
If the latter there are only two companies manufacturing this product for a
viation use: Phillips with two grades and Aeroshell with a single product.
To the best of my knowledge these are the only approved aviation multi-gr
ade oils manufactured anywhere in the world.
>From long experience I many years ago came to the conclusion that the Aeros
hell W15W50 product should not be used in a radial engine. In those days it
was referred
to as 15W50. Aeroshell have been tinkering with the formula for years and
have made improvements (extra =9CW=9D?) so possibly it is now
acceptable. But not for me.
I have been using the Phillips products basically since they came on the ma
rket. X/C 25W60 for the radials P&W R985, R1340 and, in later years the Hu
osai and M14P. I think the X/C 20W50 would be OK for the Huosai but would
recommend the 25W60 for the M14P due to higher temps. For my own Huosai h
owever I have been using 25W60 just cause!
You mentioned =9COil Dilution=9D. That was a wonderful thing i
n the arctic from the early 1940=99s. It was developed for aviation
use in the 1930=99s by a Canadian aircraft mechanic by the name of T
ommy Siers. He spent most of his early years in the Arctic and noticed tru
ckers pouring gas in their oil tanks. The light came on and he went to wor
k. It took until 1939 until it was finally approved for use and was immedi
ately picked up by the US military and the rest of the world. He won the 1
940 McKee Trophy for the best Canadian advancement to aviation.
Tommy was the Director of Maintenance and my first boss in the aviation wor
ld of 1951.
In more recent years I have removed the system from every T6, Harvard and C
J that I have licensed. In our aircraft types it is now just a potential h
azard for the unwary.
Walt
From: Mark Bitterlich
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 12:12 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Hello Richard. As you are aware, I typically consider anything you say or
recommend regarding =9Canything Russian=9D to be above reproac
h and generally =9Cgospel=9D. But in regards to this topic I h
ave to respectfully disagree.
You said: =9Ctheir real problem was that these multi-grades are signi
ficantly thinner than single grades when very hot=9D. I do not know
what specific oil the Russians ran their tests on, but oil weight, or visco
sity, refers to how thick or thin the oil is and the temperature requiremen
ts set for oil by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) is 0 degrees F
(low) and 210 degrees F (high).
Oils meeting the SAE's low temperature requirements have a "W" after the vi
scosity rating (example: 10W), and oils that meet the high ratings have no
letter (example SAE 30). An oil is rated for viscosity by heating it to a s
pecified temperature, and then allowing it to flow out of a specifically si
zed hole. Its viscosity rating is determined by the length of time it takes
to flow out of the hole. If it flows quickly, it gets a low rating. If it
flows slowly, it gets a high rating.
Since oil generally gets thinner when heated, and thicker when cooled, the
multi-viscosity oils were introduced. These oils meet SAE specifications f
or the low temperature requirements of a light oil and the high temperature
requirements of a heavy oil. This is the best of both worlds and is accomp
lished by using special additives to increase viscosity with an increase in
temperature.
Next, I would like to point out that M-14 equipped Russian aircraft typical
ly came stock with an oil dilution system, where raw fuel was pumped into t
he oil system prior to shutdown in cold weather to massively reduce viscosi
ty on the next cold engine start. This is a highly effective but somewhat
dangerous procedure that relies on a lot of variables and I don=99t k
now anyone that recommends it, but clearly it was included due to the lack
of multi-grade oil available at the time, and also because it has been a st
andard method since before WW-II.
Also of significance is that a single weight oil used in a M-14 equipped ta
il dragger tends to collect oil in the lower intake tubes. This oil will *
NOT* be eliminated by pulling the prop through. Without really extensive pr
e-heating, this =9Cslug=9D of oil remains a real hazard to hyd
raulic lock when starting in really cold conditions. If the owner has inta
ke drain tubes, and primes the daylight out of the engine and fuel does NOT
run out the intake drain kit, do NOT attempt to start it! You would rolli
ng the dice.
So bottom line, I have used Phillips 20W-60W Radial Engine Oil, for close t
o 800 hours in my M-14P equipped Yak-50. It does not leak oil, it still ha
s good compression, and it does not build up in the intake tubes anywhere n
ear what a single grade oil will do in cold weather. So, while I respect Ru
ssian testing, I=99d like to see their specific results, regarding wh
at oil they tested and how. Since I realize those documents are probably i
mpossible to publish, I=99ll just offer that there is nothing wrong w
ith multi-viscosity oils and they are specifically formulated to not get th
inner at high temperature, and in fact are tested to meet specific standard
s as not to do that. My 2 cents, in this case about $1 worth.
Mark
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server@matronics.
com> On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 2:14 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
I have little experience of the Chinese engine, but I have no reason to thi
nk that its oil requirements would be significantly different to the M 14 f
amily from Russia. And I did spend a lot of time in Voronezh with the desig
n team of Vedenyeev many years ago, and they were strongly of the view that
multigrade oils were not appropriate for their engines. Importantly, they
had done quite a lot of testing, and in those days they had the funds to do
that. Of course these oils are relatively thin when cold, which is good, b
ut of course the Russians tend to pre-heat and indeed say that preheating i
s necessary below +5=C2=B0C anyway. Then, unlike cars, these engines do not
get started frequently for short trips when cold.
But their real problem was that these multi-grades are significantly thinne
r than single grades when very hot, and they felt did not give appropriate
lubrication. And also, as I know multigrade users have realised, tend to le
ak.
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode@russianaeros.com
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@mat
ronics.com] On Behalf Of Justin Drafts
Sent: 15 August 2019 17:20
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Ya thanks all, ran my CJ yesterday with the new batch of 25W-60, all seems
fine.
Justin
N280NC
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 3:37 AM JL2A <info@flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.co
m> wrote:
ics.com>
I've gone through nearly 200 gallons of X/C 25W-60 in the last 4 years. S
eems good to me.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490805#490805
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| Subject: | Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
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