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1. 12:52 AM - Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? (Richard Goode)
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| Subject: | Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
I honestly can't remember which multigrade oil was used for comparison.
But I'm absolutely sure that there is no Russian multigrade aviation
oil, so it must have been imported.
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode@russianaeros.com
<mailto:richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
<http://www.russianaeros.com> www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: 17 August 2019 18:49
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Hi Mark & Richard;
I too have been wondering which multi-grade oils
the Russians used in their M14P testing. Is there a Russian aviation
approved multi-grade oil available or were the tests done with US
manufactured products?
If the latter there are only two companies manufacturing this product
for aviation use: Phillips with two grades and Aeroshell with a single
product. To the best of my knowledge these are the only approved
aviation multi-grade oils manufactured anywhere in the world.
>From long experience I many years ago came to the conclusion that the
Aeroshell W15W50 product should not be used in a radial engine. In those
days it was referred
to as 15W50. Aeroshell have been tinkering with the formula for years
and have made improvements (extra =9CW=9D?) so possibly it
is now acceptable. But not for me.
I have been using the Phillips products basically since they came on the
market. X/C 25W60 for the radials P&W R985, R1340 and, in later years
the Huosai and M14P. I think the X/C 20W50 would be OK for the Huosai
but would recommend the 25W60 for the M14P due to higher temps. For my
own Huosai however I have been using 25W60 just cause!
You mentioned =9COil Dilution=9D. That was a wonderful
thing in the arctic from the early 1940=99s. It was developed
for aviation use in the 1930=99s by a Canadian aircraft mechanic
by the name of Tommy Siers. He spent most of his early years in the
Arctic and noticed truckers pouring gas in their oil tanks. The light
came on and he went to work. It took until 1939 until it was finally
approved for use and was immediately picked up by the US military and
the rest of the world. He won the 1940 McKee Trophy for the best
Canadian advancement to aviation.
Tommy was the Director of Maintenance and my first boss in the aviation
world of 1951.
In more recent years I have removed the system from every T6, Harvard
and CJ that I have licensed. In our aircraft types it is now just a
potential hazard for the unwary.
Walt
From: Mark Bitterlich <mailto:markbitterlich@embarqmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 12:12 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Hello Richard. As you are aware, I typically consider anything you say
or recommend regarding =9Canything Russian=9D to be above
reproach and generally =9Cgospel=9D. But in regards to this
topic I have to respectfully disagree.
You said: =9Ctheir real problem was that these multi-grades are
significantly thinner than single grades when very hot=9D. I do
not know what specific oil the Russians ran their tests on, but oil
weight, or viscosity, refers to how thick or thin the oil is and the
temperature requirements set for oil by the Society of Automotive
Engineers (SAE) is 0 degrees F (low) and 210 degrees F (high).
Oils meeting the SAE's low temperature requirements have a "W" after the
viscosity rating (example: 10W), and oils that meet the high ratings
have no letter (example SAE 30). An oil is rated for viscosity by
heating it to a specified temperature, and then allowing it to flow out
of a specifically sized hole. Its viscosity rating is determined by the
length of time it takes to flow out of the hole. If it flows quickly, it
gets a low rating. If it flows slowly, it gets a high rating.
Since oil generally gets thinner when heated, and thicker when cooled,
the multi-viscosity oils were introduced. These oils meet SAE
specifications for the low temperature requirements of a light oil and
the high temperature requirements of a heavy oil. This is the best of
both worlds and is accomplished by using special additives to increase
viscosity with an increase in temperature.
Next, I would like to point out that M-14 equipped Russian aircraft
typically came stock with an oil dilution system, where raw fuel was
pumped into the oil system prior to shutdown in cold weather to
massively reduce viscosity on the next cold engine start. This is a
highly effective but somewhat dangerous procedure that relies on a lot
of variables and I don=99t know anyone that recommends it, but
clearly it was included due to the lack of multi-grade oil available at
the time, and also because it has been a standard method since before
WW-II.
Also of significance is that a single weight oil used in a M-14 equipped
tail dragger tends to collect oil in the lower intake tubes. This oil
will *NOT* be eliminated by pulling the prop through. Without really
extensive pre-heating, this =9Cslug=9D of oil remains a
real hazard to hydraulic lock when starting in really cold conditions.
If the owner has intake drain tubes, and primes the daylight out of the
engine and fuel does NOT run out the intake drain kit, do NOT attempt to
start it! You would rolling the dice.
So bottom line, I have used Phillips 20W-60W Radial Engine Oil, for
close to 800 hours in my M-14P equipped Yak-50. It does not leak oil,
it still has good compression, and it does not build up in the intake
tubes anywhere near what a single grade oil will do in cold weather. So,
while I respect Russian testing, I=99d like to see their specific
results, regarding what oil they tested and how. Since I realize those
documents are probably impossible to publish, I=99ll just offer
that there is nothing wrong with multi-viscosity oils and they are
specifically formulated to not get thinner at high temperature, and in
fact are tested to meet specific standards as not to do that. My 2
cents, in this case about $1 worth.
Mark
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
<owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> > On Behalf Of Richard
Goode
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 2:14 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
I have little experience of the Chinese engine, but I have no reason to
think that its oil requirements would be significantly different to the
M 14 family from Russia. And I did spend a lot of time in Voronezh with
the design team of Vedenyeev many years ago, and they were strongly of
the view that multigrade oils were not appropriate for their engines.
Importantly, they had done quite a lot of testing, and in those days
they had the funds to do that. Of course these oils are relatively thin
when cold, which is good, but of course the Russians tend to pre-heat
and indeed say that preheating is necessary below +5=C2=B0C anyway.
Then, unlike cars, these engines do not get started frequently for short
trips when cold.
But their real problem was that these multi-grades are significantly
thinner than single grades when very hot, and they felt did not give
appropriate lubrication. And also, as I know multigrade users have
realised, tend to leak.
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode@russianaeros.com
<mailto:richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
<http://www.russianaeros.com> www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Justin Drafts
Sent: 15 August 2019 17:20
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Ya thanks all, ran my CJ yesterday with the new batch of 25W-60, all
seems fine.
Justin
N280NC
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 3:37 AM JL2A
<info@flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com
<mailto:info@flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com> > wrote:
<info@flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com
<mailto:info@flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com> >
I've gone through nearly 200 gallons of X/C 25W-60 in the last 4 years.
Seems good to me.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490805#490805
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