Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:22 AM - Re: Re: Housai engine question: compression check (Richard Goode)
2. 07:45 AM - Re: Housai engine question: compression check (Justin Drafts)
3. 10:15 PM - HS6, M14P,etc. valve adjustment. (Walter Lannon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Housai engine question: compression check |
I don't think there is a specific torque figure, and I couldn't see one
in the standard engine manual!
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode@russianaeros.com
<mailto:richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
<http://www.russianaeros.com> www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Mark Pennington
Sent: 01 May 2021 18:45
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Housai engine question: compression check
Richard Goode.
If you are watching this. Is there a torque spec for the jamb nut for
the rocker arm. ???
If anyone would know it=99s the guy who rebuilds these engines.
Thanks
Mark
N621CJ
On Sat, May 1, 2021 at 1:41 PM Justin Drafts <draftsjust417@gmail.com
<mailto:draftsjust417@gmail.com> > wrote:
Great tools John!
Very helpful pix as well... ages back I'd ordered a batch of
poorer-quality PLAAF tools, it's good to see better ones avail.
Btw, have you ever seen the proper torque for the rocker arm jam nuts?
(I can't find any such reference in my maint manuals...)
On Sat, May 1, 2021, 10:11 AM John Warwick <john.warwick1@gmail.com
<mailto:john.warwick1@gmail.com> > wrote:
No problem at all Walt, glad to be part of the discussion
=F0=9F=91=8D=F0=9F=91=8D
On Sat, May 1, 2021 at 10:03 AM Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca
<mailto:wlannon@shaw.ca> > wrote:
Hi John;
Please accept my apology for forgetting your superb tooling. At 88 my
memory is certainly not what it once was but will try to do better in
future.
Best;
Walt
From: John Warwick <mailto:john.warwick1@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2021 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Housai engine question: compression check
Repro valve adjust tools available
https://www.th_Repro.html
<https://www.theyakcollection.com/store/p297/Valve_adjusting_tool_set%2C_
M14-P%2FHoussai_-_Repro.html>
On Sat, May 1, 2021 at 8:30 AM Justin Drafts <draftsjust417@gmail.com
<mailto:draftsjust417@gmail.com> > wrote:
Hey Walt, thanks for all the details...
Ya, looking at the engine yesterday, it seems like a straightforward
operation, with the right tools.
I'm at:
draftsjust417@gmail.com <mailto:draftsjust417@gmail.com>
843-224-9040
Advice is very much appreciated...
On Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:04 PM Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca
<mailto:wlannon@shaw.ca> > wrote:
Hi Justin;
I too have not seen a specific torque value for the rocker arm nuts.
However there are two special tools for this purpose. The wrench is an
open socket style with a fixed handle used in combination with a right
angle screw driver that is positioned through the open socket to hold
your adjustment position while tightening
.
The operating word is as tight as you can get it with this wrench.
Re-check all clearances after tightening. Technically this whole
operation should be done four times. With the P &W R1340 that is a
must! due to something called a floating cam ring. These engines do not
have that problem but if you If you find any significant changes do it
again.
It is a straight forward operation for the intake valve but the engine
should be rotated slightly to provide clearance of the wrench for the
exhaust nut. This would apply for any socket type wrench. If that
clearance is not obtained there is a real possibility of damage to the
nut.
I expect you have noticed there is a light spring pressure that closes
up the valve clearance. At first glance one may think there is no
clearance. This spring is at the opposite end of the push rod and has
nothing to do with valve clearance in operation. It=99s purpose
is to keep the cam roller in constant rolling contact with the cam ring
to reduce wear. You can see this spring operation by pressing the nut
end of the rocker with your finger.
The feeler guage should be used at right angles across the width of the
rocker box. That will appear obvious since using in a fore & aft manner
will introduce interference and likely produce errors.
I have found over the years that the exhaust valves tend to tighten over
time and as a result I use 0.012=9D for the intake and
0.014=9D for the exhaust whether Huosai or M14P.
I will send you some photos of the proper tools tomorrow. Will need
your phone #. Mine is 250-485-8698.
Cheers;
Walt
From: Justin Drafts <mailto:draftsjust417@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2021 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Housai engine question: compression check
Fast question... what's the req'd torque in the rocker arms' jam nuts ?
What # has everyone used?
Thanks again all--
Justin
On Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:16 AM Justin Drafts <draftsjust417@gmail.com
<mailto:draftsjust417@gmail.com> > wrote:
All good info gents, thanks & very very much appreciated... stay tuned!
J
On Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 4:59 AM Mark Pennington
<pennington.construction.inc.1@gmail.com
<mailto:pennington.construction.inc.1@gmail.com> > wrote:
Justin
You are right about adjusting the valves. You photo is accurate.
I would talk to someone at length about the step by step procedure if
you haven=99t done that yet. How you use the feeler gauge is
important. As taught to me by others.
I would suggest fix the sticking valve before you adjust anything. I am
sure you are aware of that info.
And Yes. MMO is a very wide and varied discussion for sure. Me, I
drink a pint before every flight. LOL.
Mark
N621CJ.
On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 7:48 AM Greg Wrobel <clouddog22@gmail.com
<mailto:clouddog22@gmail.com> > wrote:
Sticking valves happen. We have all had them. The danger is when you let
them go you may eventually burn the valve and then you have another
issue to deal with. When you pull through in a perfect world you should
not hear any air coming from exhaust or carb. Sometimes a small amount
may come through and after a flight it should normally go away if not,
then you need to address it with a rubber mallet, or spinning the valve
(lapping). We can get into discussing Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel
and/or oil but that is another bag of opinions
Greg "Clouddog" Wrobel
On Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 21:34 Justin Drafts <draftsjust417@gmail.com
<mailto:draftsjust417@gmail.com> > wrote:
Ok helpful gents and engine experts-
A fruitful sunny day spent @ hangar with the suspect cylinders.
Checked the small starting air valve: definitely in good working order
and closing as appropriate.
Pulling off rocker covers and watching the rocker arm and valve springs,
I see there is
no gap at TDC between the rocker arm and top of the spring /stem for
cylinders #2 and #3.
Just so I'm understanding valve lash / clearance correctly:
- the 0.010-0.014" clearance mentioned is supposed to be here at the
red circle in the
attached pic, correct? (While the stem is at its highest point of
travel/valve fully seated/TDC...)
-adjusting this clearance/lash requires turning the large adjustment
screw at the green arrow, correct?
Based on the air I hear escaping the exhaust stack, I suspect the
exhaust valves are sticking or
otherwise remaining open.
Not sure how I went from great compression #'s last year to 0/80 psi
this year, but very little surprises
me in maintenance anymore.
Thoughts gents?
Thanks- Justin
On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 5:09 AM A. Dennis Savarese
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net <mailto:dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> >
wrote:
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net <mailto:dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> >
Also check the the air injector to make sure it is fully closed. It
too
has a very small valve inside of it about the size of a pencil eraser.
If the little valve spring is broken or the valve remains open, it will
of course affect the compression test.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182
www.yak-52.com <http://www.yak-52.com>
On 4/28/2021 11:58 PM, Justin Drafts wrote:
> Good evening all-
>
> A conundrum for you Housai engine experts; I need some advice to go
fwd.
> Doing the compression check today, I hit a weird wall.
>
> With a partner I was checking cylinders starting with #1 at top, going
> CW when viewed from cockpit.
> All #'s were good (avg 75/80 psi), until I got the last cylinder, #2.
> We got 0 psi on the pressure gauge.
>
> Checking the pressure tester/gauges/fittings/hose, all are fine and
> perfectly functional.
>
> So we double checked the previous cylinder, which had just 10 min
> prior tested at 74/80 psi.... now it also
> showed 0/80 psi. ??
> No obvious air leaks from oil breather, carburetor, or exhaust stack;
> no oil evident at bases of the cylinders;
> the exhaust and intake stacks are good condition. I had flown the
> plane earlier in the day w/o any negative
> indications.
>
> Pulled the valve covers off to find the rocker arms, springs, etc in
> great condition, doing their job when we
> slowly turned the prop thru by hand.
>
> Stuck valves?
>
> We tried the "rope trick" to slip a nylon cord into the cylinder thru
> the open sparkplug hole, then gently run
> the piston up to TDC to try to reseat the possibly stuck-open valves.
> As yet, no help.
>
> Fishing for advice & thoughts... what are we missing?
> I've never seen a 0/80 psi reading... a bad piston ring or bad valve,
> should have SOME psi indication 30~60psi.
>
> Thoughts? Pointers?
> Thanks---
>
> Justin Drafts
> N280NC
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Housai engine question: compression check |
Sounds good, much appreciated!
Grateful to have the time off now to
wade into this new area.
I'll plan on, once airworthy, to go back under the valve covers and check
these nuts' security after 5 hours.
Justin
On Sat, May 1, 2021, 10:01 PM Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Justin et al;
>
> Having likely adjusted a few thousand radial engine valves over the past
> 70 years or so I can truthfully say I have never had occasion to use a
> torque wrench for this function.
>
> Just went through the torque specification sections of the P&W R985/R1340
> Overhaul Manual and found no recommendation whatsoever in this regard.
> Will check out the P&W Mtce. manual and corresponding FAA manuals next tr
ip
> to hangar.
>
> Not really surprised as this type of joint perfectly meets the definition
> of a =9Cjamb=9D nut lock! Will check out the FAA guidance an
d get back!
>
> Walt
>
> *From:* Justin Drafts <draftsjust417@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 01, 2021 10:49 AM
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Yak-List: Re: Housai engine question: compression check
>
> Good info, esp on open ended wrench caution...
> Stay tuned! J.
>
> On Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 6:57 PM Anthony Savarese <
> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> No torque spec that I=99m aware of. Tighten securely using proper
17 mm
>> socket wrench or a properly fitted box end wrench. Don=99t use an
open end
>> wrench. Very likely you=99ll round off the corners of the hex nut.
>> Dennis .
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Apr 30, 2021, at 5:04 PM, Justin Drafts <draftsjust417@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> =EF=BB
>> Fast question... what's the req'd torque in the rocker arms' jam nuts ?
>> What # has everyone used?
>>
>> Thanks again all--
>> Justin
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:16 AM Justin Drafts <draftsjust417@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> All good info gents, thanks & very very much appreciated... stay tuned!
>>> J
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 4:59 AM Mark Pennington <
>>> pennington.construction.inc.1@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Justin
>>>>
>>>> You are right about adjusting the valves. You photo is accurate.
>>>> I would talk to someone at length about the step by step procedure if
>>>> you haven=99t done that yet. How you use the feeler gauge is im
portant. As
>>>> taught to me by others.
>>>>
>>>> I would suggest fix the sticking valve before you adjust anything. I
>>>> am sure you are aware of that info.
>>>>
>>>> And Yes. MMO is a very wide and varied discussion for sure. Me, I
>>>> drink a pint before every flight. LOL.
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>> N621CJ.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 7:48 AM Greg Wrobel <clouddog22@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Sticking valves happen. We have all had them. The danger is when you
>>>>> let them go you may eventually burn the valve and then you have anoth
er
>>>>> issue to deal with. When you pull through in a perfect world you shou
ld not
>>>>> hear any air coming from exhaust or carb. Sometimes a small amount ma
y come
>>>>> through and after a flight it should normally go away if not, then yo
u need
>>>>> to address it with a rubber mallet, or spinning the valve (lapping).
We can
>>>>> get into discussing Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel and/or oil but tha
t is
>>>>> another bag of opinions
>>>>>
>>>>> Greg "Clouddog" Wrobel
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 21:34 Justin Drafts <draftsjust417@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ok helpful gents and engine experts-
>>>>>> A fruitful sunny day spent @ hangar with the suspect cylinders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Checked the small starting air valve: definitely in good working
>>>>>> order and closing as appropriate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pulling off rocker covers and watching the rocker arm and valve
>>>>>> springs, I see there is
>>>>>> no gap at TDC between the rocker arm and top of the spring /stem for
>>>>>> cylinders #2 and #3.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just so I'm understanding valve lash / clearance correctly:
>>>>>> - the 0.010-0.014" clearance mentioned is supposed to be here at th
e
>>>>>> red circle in the
>>>>>> attached pic, correct? (While the stem is at its highest point of
>>>>>> travel/valve fully seated/TDC...)
>>>>>> -adjusting this clearance/lash requires turning the large adjustment
>>>>>> screw at the green arrow, correct?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Based on the air I hear escaping the exhaust stack, I suspect the
>>>>>> exhaust valves are sticking or
>>>>>> otherwise remaining open.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not sure how I went from great compression #'s last year to 0/80 psi
>>>>>> this year, but very little surprises
>>>>>> me in maintenance anymore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thoughts gents?
>>>>>> Thanks- Justin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 5:09 AM A. Dennis Savarese <
>>>>>> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also check the the air injector to make sure it is fully closed. I
t
>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>> has a very small valve inside of it about the size of a pencil
>>>>>>> eraser.
>>>>>>> If the little valve spring is broken or the valve remains open, it
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> of course affect the compression test.
>>>>>>> Dennis
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A. Dennis Savarese
>>>>>>> 334-546-8182
>>>>>>> www.yak-52.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/28/2021 11:58 PM, Justin Drafts wrote:
>>>>>>> > Good evening all-
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > A conundrum for you Housai engine experts; I need some advice to
>>>>>>> go fwd.
>>>>>>> > Doing the compression check today, I hit a weird wall.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > With a partner I was checking cylinders starting with #1 at top,
>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>> > CW when viewed from cockpit.
>>>>>>> > All #'s were good (avg 75/80 psi), until I got the last cylinder,
>>>>>>> #2.
>>>>>>> > We got 0 psi on the pressure gauge.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Checking the pressure tester/gauges/fittings/hose, all are fine
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> > perfectly functional.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > So we double checked the previous cylinder, which had just 10 min
>>>>>>> > prior tested at 74/80 psi.... now it also
>>>>>>> > showed 0/80 psi. ??
>>>>>>> > No obvious air leaks from oil breather, carburetor, or exhaust
>>>>>>> stack;
>>>>>>> > no oil evident at bases of the cylinders;
>>>>>>> > the exhaust and intake stacks are good condition. I had flown the
>>>>>>> > plane earlier in the day w/o any negative
>>>>>>> > indications.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Pulled the valve covers off to find the rocker arms, springs, etc
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> > great condition, doing their job when we
>>>>>>> > slowly turned the prop thru by hand.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Stuck valves?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > We tried the "rope trick" to slip a nylon cord into the cylinder
>>>>>>> thru
>>>>>>> > the open sparkplug hole, then gently run
>>>>>>> > the piston up to TDC to try to reseat the possibly stuck-open
>>>>>>> valves.
>>>>>>> > As yet, no help.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Fishing for advice & thoughts... what are we missing?
>>>>>>> > I've never seen a 0/80 psi reading... a bad piston ring or bad
>>>>>>> valve,
>>>>>>> > should have SOME psi indication 30~60psi.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Thoughts? Pointers?
>>>>>>> > Thanks---
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Justin Drafts
>>>>>>> > N280NC
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ==========
>>>>>>> List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>>>>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>>>>>> ==========
>>>>>>> FORUMS -
>>>>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>>> ==========
>>>>>>> WIKI -
>>>>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>>>>> ==========
>>>>>>> b Site -
>>>>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>>>>>>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>>> ==========
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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| Subject: | HS6, M14P,etc. valve adjustment. |
Checked the P&W Mtce manual today. exactly the same info as the
Overhaul. No reference to any subject torque value.
Also checked FAA AC 65-12, with a very comprehensive and detailed
section on valve systems and processes including numerous pages on
adjustment. They make no specific recommendations on torque values for
adjustment nuts. They do make a reference to fastener torque in general
stating that the manufacturers recommendations are to be followed. In
this they give, as an example, the rocker cover hold down nuts used
on many radial engines. These are light aluminum alloy and there has
always been a history of over tightening, warping and subsequent
leakage.
As I mentioned earlier the jamb nut securing method has been around
forever and is highly effective. The prime example of this is two plain
nuts tightened to each other on a threaded shaft, bolt or similar. In
this case the rocker arm serves as the second nut.
My diatribe for the day !!!!!!!
Walt
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