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1. 03:10 AM - Re: Barrett Pistons (Richard Goode)
2. 01:40 PM - Re: Barrett Pistons (George)
Message 1
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Hello Mark,
Thank you for your email and firstly I'm well aware of this issue, and
let me explain the background. In this very small world of those of us
who overhaul these engines, there was clearly a need for a much better
piston than the original Russian piston which has a number of faults.
Firstly it is made from an aluminium that expands at a very high rate as
it heats, and in consequence needs to be made relatively small so that
it does not seize when it heats and expands. Then, to overcome the
relatively (and of course we are talking about fractions of a
millimetre) small size when cold, the designers put in very aggressive
oil control rings, in theory to stop oil descending into the lower
cylinders, which of course it didn't do. But these rings then cause
extra friction and so heat which really isn't necessary.
In consequence, we worked with Barrett to establish a solution to this
problem, and through their connections in the US came up with a
well-known piston company, JE pistons who have a good reputation in the
car racing world. However, the practicality is that neither Barrett nor
Aerometal, my partner in Hungary, which is significantly the largest
business in this small world, have the resources to do 500 or 1000 hours
of testing on a new piston. But we did sufficient testing to give us
confidence that the pistons were good, although at the time we did think
that the thinness of the rings might be a problem with the long term,
but we were assured by JE that this would not be a problem in the
future.
However after a while we started receiving reports that engines were
losing compression through sticking rings and indeed some breaking
rings. I know Sean Trestrail has asked what proportion of engines had
this problem. It is curious, and certainly a large number did not and I
suppose it might be a reflection on the way that they were used. But, at
a guess myself 40% of engines with JE pistons had a problem at one stage
or another.
We realised this around three and half years ago, and although JE
insisted that the pistons were fine, we could see that they were not. So
we went back to the drawing board and after a lot of research =93
as you can imagine, expensive for small businesses =93 decided
that Carillo, again a well proven company would make much better
pistons, so we came to an agreement with them to produce new pistons for
us both in standard and high compression versions. I can only say that
since then the problem has disappeared and equally for people with JE
pistons that we have provided, we have offered to provide Carillo
pistons at a reduced and friendly price. But certainly that is a
complete solution.
Richard Goode
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120
e-mail: <mailto:richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
richard.goode@russianaeros.com
<http://www.russianaeros.com/> www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN SOVIET & CHINESE RADIAL AIRCRAFT ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Mark Bitterlich
Sent: 23 December 2023 19:06
Subject: Yak-List: Barrett Pistons
Richard hello, and Merry Christmas!
A friend using a 14PF in his Radial Rocket used Barrett pistons. The #2
ring on 8 out of 9 pistons froze in the groove with carbon fouling.
He then checked another M-14 with these pistons and found the same
thing.
They replaced all cylinders with rebuilt Nitrasil coating, and used
Carillo pistons with a gapless #2 ring.
Did not see it myself, but trust this gent explicitly. He was a partner
in a Debonair long ago plus he and I served in the Marine Corps
together. He's trustworthy.
Thought you should be aware.
Mark
Message 2
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Merry Christmas and hoping of a great new year.
I would just to confirm that Motorstar of Bacau, the manufacturer of the
M14P engines also has a 3 ring piston. They developed them in October of
2010. They overhauled a pair of Kamov helicopter engines for a client in
Hungary and supplied one with the new rings and one with the original
Russian rings. They discovered a 40% improvement in oil consumption and
easier starting. The Kamov worked 600 hours the that season and after
teardown found it was still in excellent shape. All new and overhauled
engines since 2011 have used the three ring pistons with good results.
We have not had any problems with rings.
Regards,
George Coy
MotorstarNA
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-363-5782 cell/Whatsapp
<mailto:george.coy@gmail.com> george.coy@gmail.com
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2023 6:08 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Barrett Pistons
Hello Mark,
Thank you for your email and firstly I'm well aware of this issue, and
let me explain the background. In this very small world of those of us
who overhaul these engines, there was clearly a need for a much better
piston than the original Russian piston which has a number of faults.
Firstly it is made from an aluminium that expands at a very high rate as
it heats, and in consequence needs to be made relatively small so that
it does not seize when it heats and expands. Then, to overcome the
relatively (and of course we are talking about fractions of a
millimetre) small size when cold, the designers put in very aggressive
oil control rings, in theory to stop oil descending into the lower
cylinders, which of course it didn't do. But these rings then cause
extra friction and so heat which really isn't necessary.
In consequence, we worked with Barrett to establish a solution to this
problem, and through their connections in the US came up with a
well-known piston company, JE pistons who have a good reputation in the
car racing world. However, the practicality is that neither Barrett nor
Aerometal, my partner in Hungary, which is significantly the largest
business in this small world, have the resources to do 500 or 1000 hours
of testing on a new piston. But we did sufficient testing to give us
confidence that the pistons were good, although at the time we did think
that the thinness of the rings might be a problem with the long term,
but we were assured by JE that this would not be a problem in the
future.
However after a while we started receiving reports that engines were
losing compression through sticking rings and indeed some breaking
rings. I know Sean Trestrail has asked what proportion of engines had
this problem. It is curious, and certainly a large number did not and I
suppose it might be a reflection on the way that they were used. But, at
a guess myself 40% of engines with JE pistons had a problem at one stage
or another.
We realised this around three and half years ago, and although JE
insisted that the pistons were fine, we could see that they were not. So
we went back to the drawing board and after a lot of research =93
as you can imagine, expensive for small businesses =93 decided
that Carillo, again a well proven company would make much better
pistons, so we came to an agreement with them to produce new pistons for
us both in standard and high compression versions. I can only say that
since then the problem has disappeared and equally for people with JE
pistons that we have provided, we have offered to provide Carillo
pistons at a reduced and friendly price. But certainly that is a
complete solution.
Richard Goode
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120
e-mail: <mailto:richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
richard.goode@russianaeros.com
www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
WORLD LEADERS IN SOVIET & CHINESE RADIAL AIRCRAFT ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com>
<owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com> > On Behalf Of Mark
Bitterlich
Sent: 23 December 2023 19:06
Subject: Yak-List: Barrett Pistons
Richard hello, and Merry Christmas!
A friend using a 14PF in his Radial Rocket used Barrett pistons. The #2
ring on 8 out of 9 pistons froze in the groove with carbon fouling.
He then checked another M-14 with these pistons and found the same
thing.
They replaced all cylinders with rebuilt Nitrasil coating, and used
Carillo pistons with a gapless #2 ring.
Did not see it myself, but trust this gent explicitly. He was a partner
in a Debonair long ago plus he and I served in the Marine Corps
together. He's trustworthy.
Thought you should be aware.
Mark
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