---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/07/02: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:15 AM - Re: Shipping Lesson Learned (Jeff & Marcia Davidson) 2. 06:15 AM - Re: Builder database is ready for testing (JEEdmondson@aol.com) 3. 08:12 AM - Speed Comparisons? (Carl Orton) 4. 09:30 AM - Re: Speed Comparisons? (James J. Cullen, Ph.D.) 5. 10:56 AM - Re: Speed Comparisons? (SEAL2CC@aol.com) 6. 11:10 AM - Re: Speed Comparisons? (Bill Morelli) 7. 12:12 PM - Re: Speed Comparisons?..confusing specs (Eric Tauch) 8. 12:21 PM - Re: Speed Comparisons? (Bryan Martin) 9. 12:33 PM - Re: Speed Comparisons? (Bill Steer) 10. 05:03 PM - Re: Shipping Lesson Learned (Jim Frisby) 11. 06:59 PM - Corvair engines for a 601HDS (Robert Rehmel) 12. 07:39 PM - Re: Speed Comparisons? (Philip Polstra) 13. 08:01 PM - Re: Shipping Lesson Learned (Bill Steer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:27 AM PST US From: "Jeff & Marcia Davidson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Shipping Lesson Learned --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff & Marcia Davidson" > Is Roadway the best way to have a kit shipped? Since we are paying for the > shipping do we have a choice on which carrier to use or does ZAC exclusively > use Roadway because of price? Jack Russell Fresno-Chandler CA My recent experience was that the relationship ZAC has with Roadway worked in my favor. Roadway lost an entire shipment to me. This was a 4x3x9 foot box! ZAC handled the problem completely, refilled the order, and had it shipped to me free of cost. I presume that they used their influence with Roadway based on the business they provide the carrier. The important thing was that I didn't have to bother with it myself. The only thing I suffered was a delay of about 2 months figuring out what happened and getting the order re-filled. It was much easier that dealing with, say a mail-order pharmacy. Jeff Davidson ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:32 AM PST US From: JEEdmondson@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Builder database is ready for testing --> Zenith-List message posted by: JEEdmondson@aol.com In a message dated 12/6/02 5:06:39 PM Central Standard Time, matthew@mucker.net writes: << www.matthewmucker.com/builder_directory.asp >> WAY TO COOL Mat!!! Jimmy Edmondson jeedmondson@aol.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:08 AM PST US From: "Carl Orton" Subject: Zenith-List: Speed Comparisons? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Carl Orton" Hi all; Considering a Zenith kit, but have seen some disparaging remarks (yeah, I know, ford vs chevy) on other newgroups about the 601 speeds not being what they're advertised. Data from the Zenith site indicates: HD: 120 mph, 630 lbs useful load HDS: 135 mph, 630 lbs XL: 128 mph, 540 lbs I'm looking for something to have fun in (aside from burning $$$) with occasional 500 mile trips with a passenger. I'm a bit on the chunky side, so full fuel with me and a typical would be close/over gross. I don't care too much about the speed, but want something faster than a 150/172. I would want a standard nav/com with VOR plus transponder, but I've read some concerns about the HD series not having enough panel depth due to the fuel tank. I also noticed that the XL only uses wing tanks (BTW - are these wet wings, or metal/bladder tanks?), so I would assume the avionics are a better fit. So.... are the speeds above true? What is your typical cruise speed? How do you fit your avionics. It seems like the XL would be better for the avionics (i.e., no "customization needed), but the HD/S would be better for higher gross weight. Any observations to help decide? Finally, anyone building/flying a Zodiac in the DFW area? Thanks for your experience and opinions; Carl ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:33 AM PST US From: "James J. Cullen, Ph.D." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Speed Comparisons? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "James J. Cullen, Ph.D." Hi Carl: > I would want a standard nav/com with VOR plus transponder, but I've read some concerns about the HD series not having enough panel depth due to the fuel tank. My wife and I just started work on an XL. I've also heard about the panel depth concerns on the HD (can't verify that it's true) but some builders have added a center console just forward of the control stick and mount their avionics there. The problem doesn't seem to exist on the XL because a header tank isn't used. I'm going to try to talk you out of a VOR installation if panel space is a concern. We're going to install an Apollo/UPSAT GPS/COM and transponder in ours. They'll both fit in the center console nicely and, because the GPS doesn't require a VOR head, that saves even more panel space. One thing I haven't figured out yet has to do with the gyros. We're planning to install a Rotax 912S, which, I don't believe, has a vacuum pump. Are builders installing electric gyros (expensive), no gyros (dangerous if you inadvertently penetrate IMC), some form of electric powered vacuum pump or (heaven forbid) a couple of vacuum venturis? > I also noticed that the XL only uses wing tanks (BTW - are these wet wings, or metal/bladder tanks?), so I would assume the avionics are a better fit. The wing tanks in the XL are aluminum -- prewelded at the factory or you can build them yourself from the information provided in the plans. Cork strips are used to float the tanks inside the leading edges of the wings. > > Finally, anyone building/flying a Zodiac in the DFW area? If you ever get out to Las Vegas, you're welcome to visit our (just started) project. Tailwinds, Jim Cullen ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:56:33 AM PST US From: SEAL2CC@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Speed Comparisons? --> Zenith-List message posted by: SEAL2CC@aol.com In a message dated 12/7/02 11:12:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, corton@charter.net writes: > It seems like the XL would be better for the avionics (i.e., no > "customization needed), but the HD/S would be better for higher gross > weight. Any observations to help decide? > I am building my HDS with LE wing tanks - no header tank so I will have same panel space as an XL and 20+ gal. fuel..Enough for me and I don't want fuel in the fuselage anyway.. Chris Carey N601BZ Richmond, VA ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:10:13 AM PST US From: Bill Morelli Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Speed Comparisons? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Morelli Carl, >HD: 120 mph, 630 lbs useful load >HDS: 135 mph, 630 lbs >XL: 128 mph, 540 lbs > >I'm looking for something to have fun in (aside from burning $$$) with >occasional 500 mile trips with a passenger. I'm a bit on the chunky side, >so full fuel with me and a typical would be close/over gross. I don't care >too much about the speed, but want something faster than a 150/172. - My HDS came in at 710 lbs so I made 1300 lbs my gross which gives me 590 useful load. Mine is powered by a Stratus Subaru which adds some extra weight. If you wanted to maximize your useful load, I would go with a Rotax or Jabiru and build LIGHT!!!! I weight 185 and my wife weights 130 so we have plenty left for full fuel and baggage. I have a Radio(no VOR) , transponder, GPS and full set of instruments except for directional gyro (which I left a spot for in the panel). Also the ZODIAC is pretty wide at the shoulders (44 inches). I have taken up passengers in the 240 lb range and they fit fine. Chunky is better than way tall in a ZODIAC. >I would want a standard nav/com with VOR plus transponder, but I've read >some concerns about the HD series not having enough panel depth due to the >fuel tank. The story with the HD and HDS is that if you use the 16 gallon header, it is tight between the panel and the tank. I used an 8 gallon header (which leaves plenty of room behind the panel) as well as two leading edge wing tanks. That gives me 29,5 gallons of fuel. My average burn is 5.5 gph so I have a good range. My HDS cruises at 120 mph. You can also go with no header and just use LE tanks and will have around 21 gallons of fuel. There are not too many that get the ZAC advertised speeds. There is a Jabiru powered ZAC getting the advertised numbers but that is with 120 hp which is way more than the original specs said you needed. Definitely faster than a 150 and similar to a 172. The climb rate in a Zodiac (all models) is typically way better than any 150 / 172. The best part in my opinion is that my HDS is way more fun to fly than a 150/172. The visibility with the bubble canopy is outstanding, it is easy to fly and very easy to land even in stiff cross winds. If you like, you can check out my web site below. There you can play with weight and balance numbers and see some photos. Regards, Bill (N812BM - HDS - Tri - Stratus - Vermont - 182.5 flight hrs. - 285 landings) web site -> http://homepages.together.net/~billvt/ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:12:30 PM PST US From: "Eric Tauch" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Speed Comparisons?..confusing specs --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Eric Tauch" Hi, One thing I have noticed on the Zenith site is that the specs have been moving around based on the sport pilot regs. I think they see this as a big factor with XL sales, even to the detriment of the best published specifications (seems crazy). I noticed the cruise has been moved down to the sport pilot figures. It will actually cruise much faster, and have read that you will have to "slow the plane down" with a climb prop to meet the regs. I have also heard that the top speed is not as important as the stall speed as applied to the sport pilot regs. I dont agree with ZACS strategy here as I think it will confuse their customers. I think they should have a separate sport pilot model, maybe limited to a lighter 80hp engine. I think Zenith was orignally posting a XL cruise speed of 138mph, which with the 100-120hp Jab 3300, is probably more accurate. I am building an XL and remember the gross being at 1350, although the site lists differently now. Personally, I would not consider starting one of the previous designs, as the XL was designed to succeed the earlier models. Noticed I tip-toed around saying "improved"...;) Eric Tauch PS, I'm in the DFW area...Plano. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carl Orton Subject: Zenith-List: Speed Comparisons? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Carl Orton" Hi all; Considering a Zenith kit, but have seen some disparaging remarks (yeah, I know, ford vs chevy) on other newgroups about the 601 speeds not being what they're advertised. Data from the Zenith site indicates: HD: 120 mph, 630 lbs useful load HDS: 135 mph, 630 lbs XL: 128 mph, 540 lbs I'm looking for something to have fun in (aside from burning $$$) with occasional 500 mile trips with a passenger. I'm a bit on the chunky side, so full fuel with me and a typical would be close/over gross. I don't care too much about the speed, but want something faster than a 150/172. I would want a standard nav/com with VOR plus transponder, but I've read some concerns about the HD series not having enough panel depth due to the fuel tank. I also noticed that the XL only uses wing tanks (BTW - are these wet wings, or metal/bladder tanks?), so I would assume the avionics are a better fit. So.... are the speeds above true? What is your typical cruise speed? How do you fit your avionics. It seems like the XL would be better for the avionics (i.e., no "customization needed), but the HD/S would be better for higher gross weight. Any observations to help decide? Finally, anyone building/flying a Zodiac in the DFW area? Thanks for your experience and opinions; Carl ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:21:55 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Speed Comparisons? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Carl Orton" > > > Data from the Zenith site indicates: > > HD: 120 mph, 630 lbs useful load > HDS: 135 mph, 630 lbs > XL: 128 mph, 540 lbs > The 540 lbs useful load for the XL assumes it is built to the proposed sport plane rules of 1232 gross. The XL was originally designed with a gross weight of 1300 lbs. So if you aren't concerned about sport plane rules, you have an extra 68 lbs of useful load to work with. The HD and HDS models can be built with wing tanks only instead of the header tank, so panel space is potentially the same for all three models. All of the above speeds are for cruise with the 80HP Rotax engine (about 60HP in cruise). The HD and HDS were designed for up to 100 HP engines while the XL is designed for up to 130HP and is a little bit cleaner aerodynamically so it is potentially faster than the other two and has a 30mph higher Vne. The wing tanks for all these planes are welded aluminum and fitted into the leading edge of the wing. If you are considering building to the sport plane rules I believe the XL is the only one that can meet all of the PROPOSED rules but, since the rules are not yet final, nothing can be taken for granted yet. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. Wings, tail, fuselage and canopy done, wheels and tail mounted. Working on instrument panel and electrical. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:08 PM PST US From: "Bill Steer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Speed Comparisons? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" Hello, Carl. I'm not flying yet, so can't comment on the speeds. But I can tell you that, depending upon your fuel system design, there can be plenty of room for instruments in a 601HD. The standard 16 gallon header tank does take most of the room behind the instrument panel, but you have two other options available - either use the 8 gallon header tank or use the wing tanks, with or without the smaller header tank. The wing tanks are welded aluminum, btw, wrapped in cork when inserted into the leading edge of the wings. Hope this helps. Bill > I would want a standard nav/com with VOR plus transponder, but I've read some concerns about the HD series not having enough panel depth due to the fuel tank. > > I also noticed that the XL only uses wing tanks (BTW - are these wet wings, or metal/bladder tanks?), so I would assume the avionics are a better fit. > > So.... are the speeds above true? What is your typical cruise speed? How do you fit your avionics. It seems like the XL would be better for the avionics (i.e., no "customization needed), but the HD/S would be better for higher gross weight. Any observations to help decide? ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:14 PM PST US From: "Jim Frisby" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Shipping Lesson Learned --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Frisby" I agree, Roadway is a good way to ship from ZAC. However it seems you should have ZAC arrange the shipping, I got a quote directly from Roadway for shipping a CH801 cowl and an engine mount from MO to Kent WA ( an ocean shipper "SpanAlaska") would take it from there. The Roadway quote (to me as an individual) was about $250, Shirley at ZAC got it shipped by the same company for about $90. Jim The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:41 PM PST US From: "Robert Rehmel" Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair engines for a 601HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Rehmel" Hi, I am seeking information from anyone who is using a Corvair engine. I have one I can use and am intending on using William Wynnes method to set it up. I would like to know what there experience has been. Thank you --- Robert Rehmel --- traveler601@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:51 PM PST US From: "Philip Polstra" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Speed Comparisons? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra" > One thing I haven't figured out yet has to do with the gyros. We're > planning to install a Rotax 912S, which, I don't believe, has a vacuum pump. > Are builders installing electric gyros (expensive), no gyros (dangerous if > you inadvertently penetrate IMC), some form of electric powered vacuum pump > or (heaven forbid) a couple of vacuum venturis? > At the moment I have no gyros in my HDS. I'm thinking about getting an Anywhere AI package and using that. About the same cost as electric gyros and nothing behind the panel. Also portable. I currently have a Garmin 250XL, CD-player, and Collins TDR-950 xpndr in my panel. It all fits with the 16 gallon header tank. I normally cruise anywhere between 100-130mph. It is all a matter of how much gas I want to burn. I could probably get more speed by changing the pitch on my prop. I typically climb out at 1000-1500 fpm in my Stratus-powered HDS. I'm not usually in a hurry, so I haven't bothered to mess with the prop. --- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:21 PM PST US From: "Bill Steer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Shipping Lesson Learned --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" I agree with this. Get ZAC to arrange for the shipping. You can get them to bill you for the shipping costs, along with your kit. That way there's no hassle with the trucking company. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Frisby" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Shipping Lesson Learned > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Frisby" > > I agree, Roadway is a good way to ship from ZAC. However it seems you > should have ZAC arrange the shipping, I got a quote directly from Roadway > for shipping a CH801 cowl and an engine mount from MO to Kent WA ( an ocean > shipper "SpanAlaska") would take it from there. The Roadway quote (to me as > an individual) was about $250, Shirley at ZAC got it shipped by the same > company for about $90. > Jim