Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:25 AM - Re: EAA Technical Advisor Program (Bill Morelli)
2. 04:42 AM - Re: EAA Technical Advisor Program (John Mireley)
3. 08:13 AM - Re: insurance (Matthew Mucker)
4. 09:34 AM - Re: EAA Technical Advisor Program (Grant Corriveau)
5. 09:52 AM - Legality Question... (Kilby, Roger)
6. 10:09 AM - Re: Legality Question... (JNBOLDING1)
7. 10:46 AM - Re: Legality Question... (CLOJAN@aol.com)
8. 11:12 AM - Re: Legality Question... (Bryan Martin)
9. 11:41 AM - Re: Legality Question... (Matthew Mucker)
10. 03:07 PM - Fw: Legality Question... (Cy Galley)
11. 04:32 PM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 01/15/03 (Greg P Jannakos)
12. 05:23 PM - Re: Insurance (ac6qj@earthlink.net)
13. 06:05 PM - Insurance - again (Larry C. McFarland)
14. 06:32 PM - Panel (Noel & Yoshie Simmons)
15. 06:58 PM - 912 oil check bottle? (Jon Croke)
16. 08:02 PM - Re: Re: Insurance (CLOJAN@aol.com)
17. 08:04 PM - Re: Re: Insurance (ac6qj@earthlink.net)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Technical Advisor Program |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Morelli <billvt@together.net>
Again the best place to go as far as I am concerned is www.skysmith.com
I have a Subaru and it has been no problem. They also got me discounts for
being and EAA and AOPA member.
Bill
do not archive
> I also talked to falcon monday and I learned a couple of things I find
>interesting. First I can't even get builders insurance until I have a
>N-number. Second, Sharon said they won't even insure the plane if it has an
>auto engine. It must use an aircraft engine. How do people insure with the
>subaru ?
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Technical Advisor Program |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: John Mireley <mireley@pilot.msu.edu>
Hal Rozema wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema <hartist1@cox.net>
>
>Just a hint, but my insurance people said it isn't an airplane until it flies.
>Until then we can add a bunch of aluminum, tools, engine, instruments, and
>"stuff" to your home owners. It is after all just extra "contents" for a
>personal hobby until it's registered.
>
>
>
That's a plan if there is no lien on the plane. The holder of any lien
is likely
to insist that it is insured as a plane with a serial number and not
just a pile
of material in your garage. Another factor is that documented labor on the
project is covered in some policies.
Message 3
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matthew Mucker" <matthew@mucker.net>
Premium price is half the equation.
The other half is how well the insurance company handles claims.
Anyone have any experience on that side of the fence?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred or
> Sandy Hulen
> Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 10:39 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: insurance
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen"
> <hulens61@birch.net>
>
> > Until you've contacted Scott Smith at SkySmith Insurance
> > www.skysmith.com
> > you probably don't have the lowest bid. And they issued mine without
> prior flight training in type (601) and without any Flight Advisor help.
>
> ++ Ditto for me too. SkySmith was the lowest and were really
> great to deal
> with. Jeff and I both had about 400 hour logged when we applied for the
> insurance. You guys with only a few hours may have a few more
> "conditions"
> applied to your requirements, but that would be the case with any other
> insurance underwriter as well.
>
> Fred
> 601LX
>
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Technical Advisor Program |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantC@ca.inter.net>
on 03/01/15 14:56, Hal Rozema at hartist1@cox.net wrote:
> Just a hint, but my insurance people said it isn't an airplane until it flies.
> Until then we can add a bunch of aluminum, tools, engine, instruments, and
> "stuff" to your home owners. It is after all just extra "contents" for a
> personal hobby until it's registered.
>
> Hal Rozema
> theplanefolks.net
That's certainly NOT what my home owner's insurer told me when I was
starting my project. You may want to check so you don't have any bad
surprises. fwiw
--
Grant Corriveau
Montreal
Zodiac 601hds/CAM100
C-GHTF
Message 5
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| Subject: | Legality Question... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kilby, Roger" <Roger.Kilby@DynCorp.com>
I was asked by a coworker who is a "potential" builder the following:
An individual buys a kit and has a friend as a building partner. The kit is
registered as an experimental in the
name of the buyer but the repairman certificate is held by the partner
(assume they both built it together but, as there can
only be one repairman certificate holder, they decided it should be the
younger of the two).
Now the question:
Assume the owner sells the flying aircraft and it is involved in an
accident. Can the repairman holder be as liable as the original
owner/builder?
This made me think, my 601 was built as a joint effort by my dad and I but
is solely registered to him. Being the younger, I hold the
repairman certificate. Not that we would ever plan to sell, but as he is the
registered owner, he could sell even if I didn't want him to.
I don't want to scare my coworker away from building but I want to be
honest.
Any thoughts on this one?
Thanks,
Roger Kilby
N98RK - 601HDS
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Legality Question... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "JNBOLDING1" <JNBOLDING1@mail.ev1.net>
>Assume the owner sells the flying aircraft and it is involved in an
>accident. Can the repairman holder be as liable as the original
>owner/builder?
>
>This made me think, my 601 was built as a joint effort by my dad and I but
>is solely registered to him. Being the younger, I hold the
>repairman certificate. Not that we would ever plan to sell, but as he is the
>registered owner, he could sell even if I didn't want him to.
>
>I don't want to scare my coworker away from building but I want to be
>honest.
>Any thoughts on this one?
>
The previous owners of a homebuilt can get lost in the haze of time and number
of hands the airplane has passed thru BUT whoever holds the repairmans cert. is
the Manufacturer of said aircraft until certificate is surrendered and airplane
scrapped , destroyed etc. LOW & SLOW John
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Legality Question... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: CLOJAN@aol.com
In a message dated 1/16/03 9:53:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Roger.Kilby@DynCorp.com writes:
> Assume the owner sells the flying aircraft and it is involved in an
>
Roger: I have had partners in the past and I have one now on the XL kit. I
have often thought about my liability and have thought that if I sell the kit
we build I would not sell it as a "flying" aircraft, even if it was. Let the
new owner be responsible for getting it in flying condition. In today's
courts this may or may not get you off the hook but it is just my thought.
Jack russell
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Legality Question... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
> Now the question:
>
> Assume the owner sells the flying aircraft and it is involved in an
> accident. Can the repairman holder be as liable as the original
> owner/builder?
The way our legal system works, anybody remotely involved in the
construction of the plane can be named in the suit. However, since a lawsuit
is usually all about money, the only people likely to be named in a suit are
the ones with lots of money. In the John Denver lawsuit, the lawyers didn't
bother going after the builder, he didn't have any money. The lawyers went
after the company that manufactured one part that was installed on the plane
and the company that sold it.
On the other hand, If your name is on the repairman certificate, you are
considered the primary builder and there is a remote chance that you could
be sued.
I'm not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV, so take this for what it's
worth.
Do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Legality Question... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matthew Mucker" <matthew@mucker.net>
Roger,
The bottom line is that in America, anyone can sue anyone for anything.
In your situation, assuming a later owner of an aircraft that you helped
build has an accident, I would think you, as manufacturer of the aircraft
could be hauled to court in an attempt to prove fault with the manufacturing
of the aircraft that resulted in the accident.
Whether or not you hold the repairman certificate has nothing to do with it.
Your liability as manufacturer is independent of your status as holder of
the repairman certificate.
This subject is a metter of intense interest to all homebuilders and you're
not the first to consider this. My suggestion is to contact the EAA and ask
their experts. Free legal advice is worth exactly what you paid for it,
mine included.
-Matt
>
> Assume the owner sells the flying aircraft and it is involved in an
> accident. Can the repairman holder be as liable as the original
> owner/builder?
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Legality Question... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
FYI
Cy Galley
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Government Programs" <govt@eaa.org>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Legality Question...
The long and the short of it depends on the situation - if the pilot runs
out of gas because of his flight planning mistake - trying to fly 5 hours on
a tank that only holds 3 hours worth of gas - would the original builder be
liable? I think not.
Because the buyer of an experimental amateur-built aircraft knowingly
purchases an aircraft with the words "EXPERIMENTAL" all over it - EAA has
never heard of a successful legal issue like this just because of that fact.
However if the owner, immediately before the transfer, disconnected the
rudder pedals and didn't tell the new owner before the first flight & crash,
then a case could be made for liability...but then again why didn't the new
owner do a preflight inspection to ensure all controls were properly
connected?
Take the John Denver accident - the builder placed the fuel controls where
it was comfortable and usable for him. The new owner, John Denver, crashed
while (per the NTSB) attempting to change the fuel tank selector to a new
position. To do this he was required to turn his body to reach and turn the
switch - which cause him to loose control and crash. Was the builder held
liable for the placement of the fuel control switches - no.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: Cy Galley [mailto:cgalley@qcbc.org]
Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: Legality Question...
Is the last paragraph correct?
----- Original Message -----
From: "JNBOLDING1" <JNBOLDING1@mail.ev1.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Legality Question...
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "JNBOLDING1" <JNBOLDING1@mail.ev1.net>
>
>
> >Assume the owner sells the flying aircraft and it is involved in an
> >accident. Can the repairman holder be as liable as the original
> >owner/builder?
> >
> >This made me think, my 601 was built as a joint effort by my dad and I
but
> >is solely registered to him. Being the younger, I hold the
> >repairman certificate. Not that we would ever plan to sell, but as he is
the
> >registered owner, he could sell even if I didn't want him to.
> >
> >I don't want to scare my coworker away from building but I want to be
> >honest.
> >Any thoughts on this one?
> >
>
> The previous owners of a homebuilt can get lost in the haze of time and
number of hands the airplane has passed thru BUT whoever holds the
repairmans cert. is the Manufacturer of said aircraft until certificate is
surrendered and airplane scrapped , destroyed etc. LOW & SLOW John
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 01/15/03 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Greg P Jannakos <gpjann@juno.com>
For those looking into the cost of insurance,
The type of engine will greatly influence the cost of insurance.
The Ins. Co. prefer certified engines.
Message 12
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: ac6qj@earthlink.net
>I also talked to falcon monday and I learned a couple of things I find
>interesting. First I can't even get builders insurance until I have a
>N-number. Second, Sharon said they won't even insure the plane if it has an
>auto engine. It must use an aircraft engine. How do people insure with the
>subaru ?
>Jack Russell
>Ser#5000 XL
>On elevator trim
>
>
I wonder if the non-aircraft engine limitation applies to a
non-certified aircraft engine such as a Rotax ULS or the Jabiru?
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--
Best Regards, Ray Montagne
Zenith Aircraft Zodiac 601 XL builder #4939
Construction Log & Photos: <http://home.earthlink.net/~ac6qj/zodiac>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Insurance - again |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry C. McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
It would seem that if insurance were not available for
planes with the auto engine, the word experimental might
also apply, for those particular companies.
I wouldn't get too sweaty about it because there are
quite a few who precede us with these engines and
seem not to be complaining.
Larry McFarland 601hds - Stratus Soob
*** Do Not Archive ***
Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel & Yoshie Simmons" <noel@blueskyaviation.net>
I am working with a customer on a panel for a 601XL. There aren't a lot of
GREAT panel pictures on the internet. What I have planed is a sculpted and
molded panel instead of the usual flat one. I see a lot of beautiful
leather interiors with a flat boxy panel and an even flatter and boxier
center consol. So here is my point, if you have a beautiful panel that is
also very functional would you send me a picture please.
Thank you.
Noel and Yoshie Simmons
Blue Sky Aviation, Inc.
"We do builder assistance!"
Toll Free: 866-859-0390
info@blueskyaviation.net
www.blueskyaviation.net
Message 15
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| Subject: | 912 oil check bottle? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <Jon@joncroke.com>
Looking for advice on the Rotax 912,
I notice that the Rotax installation manual show an oil 'check bottle' that
conencts to the vent on the oil tank. Is anyone using this? Optional?? I
know the coolant over flow bottle is neccessary, but does the oil overflow
on a regualr basis like the coolant?
Thanks for any advice!
Jon
701
near Green Bay (cold!)
www.joncroke.com
Message 16
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: CLOJAN@aol.com
In a message dated 1/16/2003 5:23:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ac6qj@earthlink.net writes:
> I wonder if the non-aircraft engine limitation applies to a
> non-certified aircraft engine such as a Rotax ULS or the Jabiru?
>
I told her it would be a Jabiru and she said that was fine. Jack
Do not archive
Message 17
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: ac6qj@earthlink.net
>
>I told her it would be a Jabiru and she said that was fine. Jack
>
Awesome! Thanks!
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--
Best Regards, Ray Montagne
Zenith Aircraft Zodiac 601 XL builder #4939
Construction Log & Photos: <http://home.earthlink.net/~ac6qj/zodiac>
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