---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/16/03: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:25 AM - Re: EAA Technical Advisor Program (Bill Morelli) 2. 04:42 AM - Re: EAA Technical Advisor Program (John Mireley) 3. 08:13 AM - Re: insurance (Matthew Mucker) 4. 09:34 AM - Re: EAA Technical Advisor Program (Grant Corriveau) 5. 09:52 AM - Legality Question... (Kilby, Roger) 6. 10:09 AM - Re: Legality Question... (JNBOLDING1) 7. 10:46 AM - Re: Legality Question... (CLOJAN@aol.com) 8. 11:12 AM - Re: Legality Question... (Bryan Martin) 9. 11:41 AM - Re: Legality Question... (Matthew Mucker) 10. 03:07 PM - Fw: Legality Question... (Cy Galley) 11. 04:32 PM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 01/15/03 (Greg P Jannakos) 12. 05:23 PM - Re: Insurance (ac6qj@earthlink.net) 13. 06:05 PM - Insurance - again (Larry C. McFarland) 14. 06:32 PM - Panel (Noel & Yoshie Simmons) 15. 06:58 PM - 912 oil check bottle? (Jon Croke) 16. 08:02 PM - Re: Re: Insurance (CLOJAN@aol.com) 17. 08:04 PM - Re: Re: Insurance (ac6qj@earthlink.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:25:38 AM PST US From: Bill Morelli Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EAA Technical Advisor Program --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Morelli Again the best place to go as far as I am concerned is www.skysmith.com I have a Subaru and it has been no problem. They also got me discounts for being and EAA and AOPA member. Bill do not archive > I also talked to falcon monday and I learned a couple of things I find >interesting. First I can't even get builders insurance until I have a >N-number. Second, Sharon said they won't even insure the plane if it has an >auto engine. It must use an aircraft engine. How do people insure with the >subaru ? ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:10 AM PST US From: John Mireley Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EAA Technical Advisor Program --> Zenith-List message posted by: John Mireley Hal Rozema wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema > >Just a hint, but my insurance people said it isn't an airplane until it flies. >Until then we can add a bunch of aluminum, tools, engine, instruments, and >"stuff" to your home owners. It is after all just extra "contents" for a >personal hobby until it's registered. > > > That's a plan if there is no lien on the plane. The holder of any lien is likely to insist that it is insured as a plane with a serial number and not just a pile of material in your garage. Another factor is that documented labor on the project is covered in some policies. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:01 AM PST US From: "Matthew Mucker" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: insurance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matthew Mucker" Premium price is half the equation. The other half is how well the insurance company handles claims. Anyone have any experience on that side of the fence? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred or > Sandy Hulen > Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 10:39 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: insurance > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" > > > > Until you've contacted Scott Smith at SkySmith Insurance > > www.skysmith.com > > you probably don't have the lowest bid. And they issued mine without > prior flight training in type (601) and without any Flight Advisor help. > > ++ Ditto for me too. SkySmith was the lowest and were really > great to deal > with. Jeff and I both had about 400 hour logged when we applied for the > insurance. You guys with only a few hours may have a few more > "conditions" > applied to your requirements, but that would be the case with any other > insurance underwriter as well. > > Fred > 601LX > > > do not archive > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:36 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EAA Technical Advisor Program From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau on 03/01/15 14:56, Hal Rozema at hartist1@cox.net wrote: > Just a hint, but my insurance people said it isn't an airplane until it flies. > Until then we can add a bunch of aluminum, tools, engine, instruments, and > "stuff" to your home owners. It is after all just extra "contents" for a > personal hobby until it's registered. > > Hal Rozema > theplanefolks.net That's certainly NOT what my home owner's insurer told me when I was starting my project. You may want to check so you don't have any bad surprises. fwiw -- Grant Corriveau Montreal Zodiac 601hds/CAM100 C-GHTF ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:52 AM PST US From: "Kilby, Roger" Subject: Zenith-List: Legality Question... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kilby, Roger" I was asked by a coworker who is a "potential" builder the following: An individual buys a kit and has a friend as a building partner. The kit is registered as an experimental in the name of the buyer but the repairman certificate is held by the partner (assume they both built it together but, as there can only be one repairman certificate holder, they decided it should be the younger of the two). Now the question: Assume the owner sells the flying aircraft and it is involved in an accident. Can the repairman holder be as liable as the original owner/builder? This made me think, my 601 was built as a joint effort by my dad and I but is solely registered to him. Being the younger, I hold the repairman certificate. Not that we would ever plan to sell, but as he is the registered owner, he could sell even if I didn't want him to. I don't want to scare my coworker away from building but I want to be honest. Any thoughts on this one? Thanks, Roger Kilby N98RK - 601HDS ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:09:01 AM PST US From: "JNBOLDING1" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Legality Question... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "JNBOLDING1" >Assume the owner sells the flying aircraft and it is involved in an >accident. Can the repairman holder be as liable as the original >owner/builder? > >This made me think, my 601 was built as a joint effort by my dad and I but >is solely registered to him. Being the younger, I hold the >repairman certificate. Not that we would ever plan to sell, but as he is the >registered owner, he could sell even if I didn't want him to. > >I don't want to scare my coworker away from building but I want to be >honest. >Any thoughts on this one? > The previous owners of a homebuilt can get lost in the haze of time and number of hands the airplane has passed thru BUT whoever holds the repairmans cert. is the Manufacturer of said aircraft until certificate is surrendered and airplane scrapped , destroyed etc. LOW & SLOW John ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:46:22 AM PST US From: CLOJAN@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Legality Question... --> Zenith-List message posted by: CLOJAN@aol.com In a message dated 1/16/03 9:53:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, Roger.Kilby@DynCorp.com writes: > Assume the owner sells the flying aircraft and it is involved in an > Roger: I have had partners in the past and I have one now on the XL kit. I have often thought about my liability and have thought that if I sell the kit we build I would not sell it as a "flying" aircraft, even if it was. Let the new owner be responsible for getting it in flying condition. In today's courts this may or may not get you off the hook but it is just my thought. Jack russell ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:12:36 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Legality Question... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > Now the question: > > Assume the owner sells the flying aircraft and it is involved in an > accident. Can the repairman holder be as liable as the original > owner/builder? The way our legal system works, anybody remotely involved in the construction of the plane can be named in the suit. However, since a lawsuit is usually all about money, the only people likely to be named in a suit are the ones with lots of money. In the John Denver lawsuit, the lawyers didn't bother going after the builder, he didn't have any money. The lawyers went after the company that manufactured one part that was installed on the plane and the company that sold it. On the other hand, If your name is on the repairman certificate, you are considered the primary builder and there is a remote chance that you could be sued. I'm not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV, so take this for what it's worth. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:41:12 AM PST US From: "Matthew Mucker" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Legality Question... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matthew Mucker" Roger, The bottom line is that in America, anyone can sue anyone for anything. In your situation, assuming a later owner of an aircraft that you helped build has an accident, I would think you, as manufacturer of the aircraft could be hauled to court in an attempt to prove fault with the manufacturing of the aircraft that resulted in the accident. Whether or not you hold the repairman certificate has nothing to do with it. Your liability as manufacturer is independent of your status as holder of the repairman certificate. This subject is a metter of intense interest to all homebuilders and you're not the first to consider this. My suggestion is to contact the EAA and ask their experts. Free legal advice is worth exactly what you paid for it, mine included. -Matt > > Assume the owner sells the flying aircraft and it is involved in an > accident. Can the repairman holder be as liable as the original > owner/builder? > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:35 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: Legality Question... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" FYI Cy Galley Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Government Programs" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Legality Question... The long and the short of it depends on the situation - if the pilot runs out of gas because of his flight planning mistake - trying to fly 5 hours on a tank that only holds 3 hours worth of gas - would the original builder be liable? I think not. Because the buyer of an experimental amateur-built aircraft knowingly purchases an aircraft with the words "EXPERIMENTAL" all over it - EAA has never heard of a successful legal issue like this just because of that fact. However if the owner, immediately before the transfer, disconnected the rudder pedals and didn't tell the new owner before the first flight & crash, then a case could be made for liability...but then again why didn't the new owner do a preflight inspection to ensure all controls were properly connected? Take the John Denver accident - the builder placed the fuel controls where it was comfortable and usable for him. The new owner, John Denver, crashed while (per the NTSB) attempting to change the fuel tank selector to a new position. To do this he was required to turn his body to reach and turn the switch - which cause him to loose control and crash. Was the builder held liable for the placement of the fuel control switches - no. Randy -----Original Message----- From: Cy Galley [mailto:cgalley@qcbc.org] Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: Legality Question... Is the last paragraph correct? ----- Original Message ----- From: "JNBOLDING1" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Legality Question... > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "JNBOLDING1" > > > >Assume the owner sells the flying aircraft and it is involved in an > >accident. Can the repairman holder be as liable as the original > >owner/builder? > > > >This made me think, my 601 was built as a joint effort by my dad and I but > >is solely registered to him. Being the younger, I hold the > >repairman certificate. Not that we would ever plan to sell, but as he is the > >registered owner, he could sell even if I didn't want him to. > > > >I don't want to scare my coworker away from building but I want to be > >honest. > >Any thoughts on this one? > > > > The previous owners of a homebuilt can get lost in the haze of time and number of hands the airplane has passed thru BUT whoever holds the repairmans cert. is the Manufacturer of said aircraft until certificate is surrendered and airplane scrapped , destroyed etc. LOW & SLOW John > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:14 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 01/15/03 From: Greg P Jannakos --> Zenith-List message posted by: Greg P Jannakos For those looking into the cost of insurance, The type of engine will greatly influence the cost of insurance. The Ins. Co. prefer certified engines. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:19 PM PST US From: ac6qj@earthlink.net Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Insurance --> Zenith-List message posted by: ac6qj@earthlink.net >I also talked to falcon monday and I learned a couple of things I find >interesting. First I can't even get builders insurance until I have a >N-number. Second, Sharon said they won't even insure the plane if it has an >auto engine. It must use an aircraft engine. How do people insure with the >subaru ? >Jack Russell >Ser#5000 XL >On elevator trim > > I wonder if the non-aircraft engine limitation applies to a non-certified aircraft engine such as a Rotax ULS or the Jabiru? DO NOT ARCHIVE -- Best Regards, Ray Montagne Zenith Aircraft Zodiac 601 XL builder #4939 Construction Log & Photos: ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:11 PM PST US From: "Larry C. McFarland" Subject: Zenith-List: Insurance - again --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry C. McFarland" It would seem that if insurance were not available for planes with the auto engine, the word experimental might also apply, for those particular companies. I wouldn't get too sweaty about it because there are quite a few who precede us with these engines and seem not to be complaining. Larry McFarland 601hds - Stratus Soob *** Do Not Archive *** ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:48 PM PST US From: "Noel & Yoshie Simmons" Subject: Zenith-List: Panel --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel & Yoshie Simmons" I am working with a customer on a panel for a 601XL. There aren't a lot of GREAT panel pictures on the internet. What I have planed is a sculpted and molded panel instead of the usual flat one. I see a lot of beautiful leather interiors with a flat boxy panel and an even flatter and boxier center consol. So here is my point, if you have a beautiful panel that is also very functional would you send me a picture please. Thank you. Noel and Yoshie Simmons Blue Sky Aviation, Inc. "We do builder assistance!" Toll Free: 866-859-0390 info@blueskyaviation.net www.blueskyaviation.net ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:05 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Zenith-List: 912 oil check bottle? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" Looking for advice on the Rotax 912, I notice that the Rotax installation manual show an oil 'check bottle' that conencts to the vent on the oil tank. Is anyone using this? Optional?? I know the coolant over flow bottle is neccessary, but does the oil overflow on a regualr basis like the coolant? Thanks for any advice! Jon 701 near Green Bay (cold!) www.joncroke.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:21 PM PST US From: CLOJAN@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Insurance --> Zenith-List message posted by: CLOJAN@aol.com In a message dated 1/16/2003 5:23:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, ac6qj@earthlink.net writes: > I wonder if the non-aircraft engine limitation applies to a > non-certified aircraft engine such as a Rotax ULS or the Jabiru? > I told her it would be a Jabiru and she said that was fine. Jack Do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:44 PM PST US From: ac6qj@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Insurance --> Zenith-List message posted by: ac6qj@earthlink.net > >I told her it would be a Jabiru and she said that was fine. Jack > Awesome! Thanks! DO NOT ARCHIVE -- Best Regards, Ray Montagne Zenith Aircraft Zodiac 601 XL builder #4939 Construction Log & Photos: