---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/18/03: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:28 AM - Re: Panel (Lowell Metz) 2. 12:55 PM - Re: Panel (RUSSELL JOHNSON) 3. 07:59 PM - 601 XL Rudder Tip Bent Strip (6T5-5) Question () 4. 08:08 PM - Zodie Rocket web page updated (Fred or Sandy Hulen) 5. 08:54 PM - Re: 601 XL Rudder Tip Bent Strip (6T5-5) Question (James J. Cullen, Ph.D.) 6. 10:01 PM - 601 XL Rudder Tip Bent Strip (6T5-5) Question (Larry Portouw) 7. 10:06 PM - Re: Zodie Rocket web page updated (ac6qj@earthlink.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:28:09 AM PST US From: Lowell Metz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Panel --> Zenith-List message posted by: Lowell Metz >FWIW on plastic molded panels. Thermo plastics such as polycarbonate and >polypropolyne have drawbacks in that one is prone to UV deteriation and >the other is prone to warping at tempratures experienced in cabins. Thermo >setting plastics become rather brittle and will crack with the viberations >experienced in the plane. Both of these materials require and injection >mold and a huge injection molding press. A press for polycarbonate >requires 4 tons per square inch of molding surface to inject the plastic >at 580 degrees F. Epoxy resins probably would , IMHO, be a better >material for this application. Start with a plaster or clay male mock-up, >pour a female mold and then lay up your one-off U/P from the female to get >the best surface finish. I see a lot of potential for making more panels >from a good mold but also see the loss of individuality in lay-out >possibilities with a molded panel. By the time reinforcements are added >to support some of the heavier instruments ( gyros and, radios, and TPX's >) you may end up with a pretty heavy chunk of plastic. For the rich and >exotic, a carbon fiber panel would give the flexability of a contoured >panel and the strength to weight ratio desirable in a light " inexpensive" >sport plane. Best of luck on plastic I/P's . I retired from that industry >two years ago and enjoyed building a shock mounted aluminum panel. Lowell Metz 701 Do Not Archive >Check out the above, it is a molded panel. > >Russell J. >do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:02 PM PST US From: "RUSSELL JOHNSON" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Panel --> Zenith-List message posted by: "RUSSELL JOHNSON" > >FWIW on plastic molded panels. Thermo plastics such as polycarbonate and > >polypropolyne have drawbacks in that one is prone to UV deteriation and > >the other is prone to warping at tempratures experienced in cabins. Thermo > >setting plastics become rather brittle and will crack with the viberations > >experienced in the plane. Both of these materials require and injection > >mold and a huge injection molding press. A press for polycarbonate > >requires 4 tons per square inch of molding surface to inject the plastic > >at 580 degrees F. Epoxy resins probably would , IMHO, be a better > >material for this application. Start with a plaster or clay male mock-up, > >pour a female mold and then lay up your one-off U/P from the female to get > >the best surface finish. I see a lot of potential for making more panels > >from a good mold but also see the loss of individuality in lay-out > >possibilities with a molded panel. By the time reinforcements are added > >to support some of the heavier instruments ( gyros and, radios, and TPX's > >) you may end up with a pretty heavy chunk of plastic. For the rich and > >exotic, a carbon fiber panel would give the flexability of a contoured > >panel and the strength to weight ratio desirable in a light " inexpensive" > >sport plane. Best of luck on plastic I/P's . I retired from that industry > >two years ago and enjoyed building a shock mounted aluminum panel. > > Lowell Metz 701 > Do Not Archive ++++ You are right, the least expensive way and "heaviest" way to build a molded panel would be FRP. My partner and I design FRP vessels, and if you want strength (except for the exotics like kevlar, carbon fiber, etc.), your talking weight! Russell J. / 601-HDS do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:27 PM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: 601 XL Rudder Tip Bent Strip (6T5-5) Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: Greetings, Im ready to drill the holes through the bent strip into the spar to attach the tip rib to the top of the spar. Both plans and the instruction manual call for 4xA4 rivets. If I am to maintain a 10mm edge distance both from the top edge of the spar and all edges of the bent strip AND maintain the correct over-all distance from the bottom of the spar to the top of the tip rib, I am left with a suitable rivet area of 4.5mm x 11.5 mm! So, in order to get 4 rivets into the bent strip, I will need to violate the min 10mm edge distance someplace. I can only shorten the overall height of the rudder by 1mm and not violate the spar outside the tip rib flange guidance. Yes, the long dimension of the bent strip is on the spar. Another solution seems to be to scrap the bent strip supplied with the kit and make a longer one. So, it seems that since the rudder spar is thicker than the bent strip, I should crowd the edge distance on the top of the spar? How much can I eat into the 10mm with out serious risk? How have others solved this one or am I missing something obvious? Larry Portouw bin-lurking Ft. Huacuca, AZ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:14 PM PST US From: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" Subject: Zenith-List: Zodie Rocket web page updated --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" After being heckled lately about the fact that since it's now been flown that I needed to update my Zenith Builder's Web Page,.... I did so. It now shows a finished aircraft view, a cockpit view, and a shot taken during take-off on it's first flight. Fred Hulen N601LX Jabiru 3300 601 HDS do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:51 PM PST US From: "James J. Cullen, Ph.D." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL Rudder Tip Bent Strip (6T5-5) Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "James J. Cullen, Ph.D." Hi Larry: You're not missing anything. I observed the same problem. I'm building a 601XL and am only about 2 weeks ahead of you in the construction sequence. Today, I drilled the elevator skin. With regards to your question, I scrapped the bent strip that ZAC sent me and made my own. Remember that the 10mm edge distance is a desirable target but it is not an absolute. As you progress through the aircraft, you'll find plenty of places where ZAC gives you an 8mm edge distance instead of 10. For example, take a look at the rivet pattern for the 6 elevator ribs. The two outboard ribs have rivet lines that are only 8 mm inboard from the edge of the elevator skin. The absolute is 2X the rivet diameter, which works out to about 6.5mm. Given that (and the problem that we have identified), I chose to make my own bent strip and accepted a bit less than 10mm for the rivet spacing. In any event, structurally, in this location, it's not all that critical. The tip rib will be held in place just fine by the rivets that go through the rudder skin into the tip rib. Note that these rivets are set at a 40mm pitch -- not for strength but just to keep the shape of the skin from developing a wavy appearance. If the pitch were based on structural requirements, a much larger pitch would be acceptable. Hope this helps. Jim Cullen Las Vegas, NV ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Zenith-List: 601 XL Rudder Tip Bent Strip (6T5-5) Question > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > Greetings, > Im ready to drill the holes through the bent strip into the spar to > attach the tip rib to the top of the spar. Both plans and the instruction > manual call for 4xA4 rivets. If I am to maintain a 10mm edge distance both > from the top edge of the spar and all edges of the bent strip AND maintain > the correct over-all distance from the bottom of the spar to the top of the > tip rib, I am left with a suitable rivet area of 4.5mm x 11.5 mm! So, in > order to get 4 rivets into the bent strip, I will need to violate the min > 10mm edge distance someplace. I can only shorten the overall height of the > rudder by 1mm and not violate the spar outside the tip rib flange > guidance. Yes, the long dimension of the bent strip is on the spar. Another > solution seems to be to scrap the bent strip supplied with the kit and make > a longer one. > So, it seems that since the rudder spar is thicker than the bent strip, I > should crowd the edge distance on the top of the spar? > How much can I eat into the 10mm with out serious risk? How have others > solved this one or am I missing something obvious? > > Larry Portouw > bin-lurking > Ft. Huacuca, AZ > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:26 PM PST US From: "Larry Portouw" Subject: Zenith-List: 601 XL Rudder Tip Bent Strip (6T5-5) Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Portouw" Jim, Thanks. I think thats the route Ill take- building a new part. I looked on the plans- the strip supplied by Zenith is 1cm shorter in each dimension than called for on the plan. If it was 1cm longer, all would work just fine. Larry Portouw Fort Huachuca, AZ ---------- --> Zenith-List message posted by: "James J. Cullen, Ph.D." Hi Larry: You're not missing anything. I observed the same problem. I'm building a 601XL and am only about 2 weeks ahead of you in the construction sequence. Today, I drilled the elevator skin. With regards to your question, I scrapped the bent strip that ZAC sent me and made my own. Remember that the 10mm edge distance is a desirable target but it is not an absolute. As you progress through the aircraft, you'll find plenty of places where ZAC gives you an 8mm edge distance instead of 10. For example, take a look at the rivet pattern for the 6 elevator ribs. The two outboard ribs have rivet lines that are only 8 mm inboard from the edge of the elevator skin. The absolute is 2X the rivet diameter, which works out to about 6.5mm. Given that (and the problem that we have identified), I chose to make my own bent strip and accepted a bit less than 10mm for the rivet spacing. In any event, structurally, in this location, it's not all that critical. The tip rib will be held in place just fine by the rivets that go through the rudder skin into the tip rib. Note that these rivets are set at a 40mm pitch -- not for strength but just to keep the shape of the skin from developing a wavy appearance. If the pitch were based on structural requirements, a much larger pitch would be acceptable. Hope this helps. Jim Cullen Las Vegas, NV ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: 601 XL Rudder Tip Bent Strip (6T5-5) Question > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > Greetings, > I'm ready to drill the holes through the bent strip into the spar to > attach the tip rib to the top of the spar. Both plans and the instruction > manual call for 4xA4 rivets. If I am to maintain a 10mm edge distance both > from the top edge of the spar and all edges of the bent strip AND maintain > the correct over-all distance from the bottom of the spar to the top of the > tip rib, I am left with a suitable rivet area of 4.5mm x 11.5 mm! So, in > order to get 4 rivets into the bent strip, I will need to violate the min > 10mm edge distance someplace. I can only shorten the overall height of the > rudder by 1mm and not violate the spar outside the tip rib flange > guidance. Yes, the long dimension of the bent strip is on the spar. Another > solution seems to be to scrap the bent strip supplied with the kit and make > a longer one. > So, it seems that since the rudder spar is thicker than the bent strip, I > should crowd the edge distance on the top of the spar? > How much can I eat into the 10mm with out serious risk? How have others > solved this one or am I missing something obvious? > > Larry Portouw > bin-lurking > Ft. Huachuca, AZ > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:28 PM PST US From: ac6qj@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodie Rocket web page updated --> Zenith-List message posted by: ac6qj@earthlink.net >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" > >After being heckled lately about the fact that since it's now been >flown that I needed to update my Zenith Builder's Web Page,.... I >did so. It now shows a finished aircraft view, a cockpit view, and >a shot taken during take-off on it's first flight. > >Fred Hulen >N601LX Jabiru 3300 601 HDS > > Nice job!!!! Did you fabricate the center panel that is below the standard zac panel? DO NOT ARCHIVE -- Best regards, Ray Montagne Cupertino, CA