Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:13 AM - Re: Accuracy of Wing specifications (Grant Corriveau)
2. 07:17 AM - Accuracy if Wing Specifications (paulrod36)
3. 08:33 AM - Re: vw twin powered zenith (Garrou, Douglas)
4. 09:16 AM - downed subaru (Dave Alberti)
5. 10:37 AM - Re: downed subaru (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
6. 11:19 AM - Compass Swing (Leo J. Corbalis)
7. 11:50 AM - Re: Accuracy of Wing specifications (nhulin)
8. 12:20 PM - Re: Corvairs (wizard-24@juno.com)
9. 12:56 PM - Re: Compass Swing (Dave Austin)
10. 02:08 PM - XL wing jig (Timothy E. Barton)
11. 02:17 PM - Re: Compass Swing (wizard-24@juno.com)
12. 03:17 PM - Drilling top stabilizer skin (Mark Stauffer)
13. 04:32 PM - Re: Drilling top stabilizer skin (wizard-24@juno.com)
14. 04:37 PM - Re: XL wing jig (wizard-24@juno.com)
15. 04:55 PM - 701 and 801 doors (Gary Liming)
16. 05:04 PM - Useful Books (Gary Liming)
17. 05:04 PM - New 601XL plans builder (Oswaldo P Silva Filho)
18. 06:48 PM - Re: Corvairs (nhulin)
19. 07:55 PM - Re: 701 and 801 doors ()
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Accuracy of Wing specifications |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantC@ca.inter.net>
on 03/02/12 19:08, wizard-24@juno.com at wizard-24@juno.com wrote:
>> 2. How does anybody get 92.5 mm on a shaky piece of aluminum in the
>> first place?
...
> ....in fact, someone on the list wrote a while back that ZAC put a
> 601 together without measuring anything, and it flew great. I hope that's
> true. :)
I admire those of you who are craftsmen and can build finished aircraft with
close tolerances and even rivet lines that are exactly straight and
perfectly spaced to match up at all the intersections!!! I AM NOT SO.
I took Chris Heintz at his word when he said that he is not a craftsman, and
wanted to design an aircraft that would be less demanding to build. I was
not careless in my construction, but nevertheless I can assure you that you
do not need to build the perfect aircraft in order for it to fly safely and
wonderfully.
(One place I did take extra care and attention was in the alignment of the
fuselage and wing/tail structures, as I knew that these would have an
ongoing effect on aircraft trim and performance.)
But in terms of 'making' the aluminum pieces fit together - I used all the
suggested tolerances available so I could keep moving and get it finished.
I'm not recommending that anyone follow my poor craftsmanship - I just want
to assure you that there is a very reasonable latitute available in
construction (i.e. a beginner/learner CAN construct a great-flying
aircraft!).
fwiw - Happy building, finishing and FLYING!
--
Grant Corriveau
Montreal
Zodiac 601hds/CAM100
C-GHTF
Message 2
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| Subject: | Accuracy if Wing Specifications |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "paulrod36" <paulrod36@msn.com>
Thanks to Mike Fortunato and Grant Corriveau for allaying my fears as to how close
the tolerances should be. I've opened up Cessna, Piper and Beech wings before,
and seen shims, hammer marks, nailed rivets and other horribilia, so I sorta
"knew", but I feel better for having extra input.
I did make a few support blocks, just to help. But instead of carving wood, I cheated---
got some 1.25 inch Schedule 40 PVC pipe, and cut to length with a backsaw.
Much easier than cutting up 2x4's.
Anyway, Yeeehaaaaa! Pressin' on.
Paul Rodriguez
601XL, Corvaired
Do Not Archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: vw twin powered zenith |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
I saw one explanation of this interesting stat. The argument was that the
twin is generally moving faster than a single, and when you crash, faster is
very, very bad. Every extra knot can cause an extra knot, so to speak. Add
in the difficulty of handling some twins on one engine, which can sometimes
give you that really lovely "upside-down approach," and boom, bad
survivability stats. Just a theory.
With that said, it's also widely theorized that "one engine saves" (i.e.,
the flight/aircraft is saved because the twin was able to limp home on one
engine) are probaby underreported. Why make a fuss when you land safely?
Etc.
Cheers
Doug G.
-----Original Message-----
Time: 01:57:24 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vw twin powered zenith
From: Grant Corriveau <grantC@ca.inter.net>
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantC@ca.inter.net>
[snip]
And furthermore, the aircraft characteristics on one engine could be
downright deadly if not properly handled. The statistics I had at the time
revealed that after an engine failure, the survival rate in a SINGLE engine
aircraft was higher than that in a twin. Why? I suppose because the single
engine pilot usually pulled off an acceptable landing (i.e. walked away),
whereas the twin pilot stood a very good chance of losing control while
flying on one engine...?
Message 4
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" <daberti@execpc.com>
NTSB Identification: FTW03LA091
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Saturday, February 01, 2003 in Grandfield, OK
Aircraft: Gilbertson Zodiac CH601HDS, registration: N474BG
Injuries: 1 Uninjured.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any
errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On February 1, 2003, approximately 1235 central standard time, a Gilbertson Zodiac
CH601HDS, experimental airplane, N474BG, struck a terrace during a forced
landing following a loss of engine power near Grandfield, Oklahoma. The airplane
was built, owned, and operated by the pilot under 14 Code of Federal Regulations
(CFR) Part 91. The airline transport pilot, sole occupant, was not injured,
and the airplane sustained substantial damage. Visual meteorological conditions
prevailed for the local flight, and a flight plan was not filed. The test
flight originated from Chattanooga, Oklahoma, approximately 1205.
Local authorities and the pilot reported to the FAA inspector that the airplane
struck the terrace, the nose landing gear collapsed, and the airplane structure
twisted as the airplane came to rest in the field. During the impact sequence,
the firewall and all components forward of the firewall separated from the
airplane. The integrity of the fuel tank was compromised.
The pilot reported to the FAA inspector that during a flight that morning, the
Subaru engine was running rough; however, he landed the airplane without further
incident. The carburetor screen was removed, cleaned of debris, and reinstalled
by the pilot.
During the afternoon flight, there was a total loss of engine power. The pilot
performed the emergency landing procedures.
The FAA inspector reported that the airplane had accumulated 28 of the required
40 hours of flight time under the operating limitations for the homebuilt airplane.
Message 5
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Of course now we want to know who built the engine and why it failed?
Frank
Stratus soob
601 HDS 280 hours
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Alberti [mailto:daberti@execpc.com]
Subject: Zenith-List: downed subaru
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" <daberti@execpc.com>
NTSB Identification: FTW03LA091
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Saturday, February 01, 2003 in Grandfield, OK
Aircraft: Gilbertson Zodiac CH601HDS, registration: N474BG
Injuries: 1 Uninjured.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors.
Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been
completed.
On February 1, 2003, approximately 1235 central standard time, a Gilbertson
Zodiac CH601HDS, experimental airplane, N474BG, struck a terrace during a
forced landing following a loss of engine power near Grandfield, Oklahoma.
The airplane was built, owned, and operated by the pilot under 14 Code of
Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91. The airline transport pilot, sole
occupant, was not injured, and the airplane sustained substantial damage.
Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the local flight, and a
flight plan was not filed. The test flight originated from Chattanooga,
Oklahoma, approximately 1205.
Local authorities and the pilot reported to the FAA inspector that the
airplane struck the terrace, the nose landing gear collapsed, and the
airplane structure twisted as the airplane came to rest in the field. During
the impact sequence, the firewall and all components forward of the firewall
separated from the airplane. The integrity of the fuel tank was compromised.
The pilot reported to the FAA inspector that during a flight that morning,
the Subaru engine was running rough; however, he landed the airplane without
further incident. The carburetor screen was removed, cleaned of debris, and
reinstalled by the pilot.
During the afternoon flight, there was a total loss of engine power. The
pilot performed the emergency landing procedures.
The FAA inspector reported that the airplane had accumulated 28 of the
required 40 hours of flight time under the operating limitations for the
homebuilt airplane.
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
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Message 6
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis" <l.corbalis@worldnet.att.net>
ATTENTION !!! ATTENTION !!!
This opening may seem execssive. Decide at the end.
I started prep for swinging the compass by degaussing the entire cockpit/firewall
and engine mount. I used 2 differient types of degaussing devices, a large
open coil (used for degaussing TV sets and a tool degausser that looks like a
transformer with only "E" laminations. I have the tools so I take advantage of
them. I'm not sure I'd recommend getting these just to use on your plane if your
compass swing comes out within normal limits because you may not get any noticable
improvement. I do recommend you buy a "lensatic compass" from a surpulus
or sporting goods store. This will give you an easy way to read the heading
of your plane by sighting on a mark on the front and the rudder or antenna so
you can easily repeat compass readings while standing about 10 feet in front
of the plane.
Do all the normal good things. Taildraggers put the tail up on a saw horse (me),
close the canopy (steel tubes in the side rails), run the engine (you DID chock
the wheels?)
NOW for the suprise! Read the compass, pull the center stick back, now reread
the compass. The right answer is hold the stick in the normal flight position!!!
I found 10 degree errors
Leo Corbalis
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Accuracy of Wing specifications |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "nhulin" <nhulin@hotmail.com>
> Time: 02:03:58 PM PST US
> From: "paulrod36" <paulrod36@msn.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Accuracy of Wing specifications
>
> I'm finally around to doing the wings, ...
> On P.6-W-8, ... main spar at 77.5 degrees.... 92.5mm up
> from the table surface.
Mine came out pretty close. I cut six short (~100mm) sections of 2 x 4 and
then put a step in them with my router table. Kept making the step bigger
until my cheap digital caliper told me I was within about 0.5mm. Using these
blocks as supports for the rear channel, the spar sat true against the 78
degree plate.
> 1. Should I bend the rib flange against the spar until I get the required
distance?
> Or should I shim the lower part of the flange? Should I just continue,
taking
> it on faith that when all the flanges are flush to the spar, the end
result
> will be a wing true enough to fly?
I'd question it if you are more than a few millemetres out. From the above
you are out by 12mm and I don't think that it should be like that. There
could be something wrong with the ribs but I wouldn't expect them all to be
wrong. I think you might need to have a closer look at everything.
> 2. How does anybody get 92.5 mm on a shaky piece of aluminum in the first
place?
I had a good laugh at that when I first read it. Chris probably just wrote
the numbers down as they came off his calculator.
> Thanks, Paul Rodriguez
> 601XL-Corvaired
Hey, I'd be interested to find out more about your Corvair, I'm looking at
going that way.
Message 8
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
> Hey, I'd be interested to find out more about your Corvair, I'm
> looking at going that way.
Me too!
In fact, I sent an email to William Wynne to see how he was coming along
(IF he was coming along) on a FWF kit for the Corvair/601XL application.
Supposedly, he was working on one based on comments made in ZAC's
newsletter. I sent that email a couple of weeks ago and haven't heard
back yet. So any info on this engine choice would be great.
Mike Fortunato
601XL
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Compass Swing |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
Right on, Leo. I have had to do the same with the stick on every compass
swing. Compasses don't work very well when you are turning and banking,
changing height etc anyway.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 - 525 hrs
Message 10
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Timothy E. Barton" <bartonte@hotmail.com>
I need some help from the XL builders. I have my fuselage jigged up and trying
to install the rear frame channel (6B5-2) with the wing jig. I had expected the
top flanges of both the rear frame channel and the jig rear channel to be in
line. When I level the wing jig the rear jig channel top flange is about 25mm
higher than the rear frame channel top flange.
Anyone remember how the alignment look?
I also need to know if the bottom of the rear wing jig channel can be use to locate
the hole for the flap control tube.
Thanks,
Tim Barton
Rockford, IL
bartonte@hotmail.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Compass Swing |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
Speaking of compasses....I bought a pedastal mount compass for my XL, but
noticed when I get it close to its mounting point (above the instrument
panel on the top) the compass is affected, presumably by all the metal
around it. Is there a way to insulate against this, or do I just need to
calculate the error it will have when mounted in that location and factor
that into my headings?
Mike Fortunato
601XL
Message 12
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| Subject: | Drilling top stabilizer skin |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mark Stauffer <mark.stauffer@comcast.net>
Fellow 601 XL builders. Reference manual page T-47.
I've laid out, drilled, and clecoed the bottom side of the horizontal
stabilizer (HS) skin. The manual tells me to go ahead and rivet the bottom
of the HS skin then flip it over and strap the top side down with ratchet
straps and 2x4s. The next step is to mark the rivet lines for the front and
rear spars and ribs. My question is how can you effectively mark those holes
with a 2x4 and 1x2 in the way? The front and rear spar I can see because
they run parallel but you'll have gaps in the rib lines.
While I'm deburring the bottom side I was thinking of marking the top side
rivet lines BEFORE I rivet the bottom side. Is there a down side to this?
What am I not seeing? The skin should be flush with the aft edge of the rear
spar (top side) correct?
One last question, on the top side did you start drilling on the front spar
line, working right and left and then back to the rear spar or just the
opposite. OR does it just not matter? The last step for drilling the skin is
to insert the hinge and drill it, that's why I'm thinking you start on the
front spar.
Sorry for all of the questions........ I still have the "newbie" jitters!
:-)
Thanks for any light you can shed on this.
Mark
601 XL SN:4999
Almost done with stabilizer and elevator.
Do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Drilling top stabilizer skin |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
> My question is how can you effectively mark
> those holes with a 2x4 and 1x2 in the way? The front and rear spar I
can see
> because they run parallel but you'll have gaps in the rib lines.
Once you can get some holes drilled and cleco'd, and can then loosen the
straps and move the boards to get to the rest of the rib lines.
> While I'm deburring the bottom side I was thinking of marking the
> top side rivet lines BEFORE I rivet the bottom side. Is there a down
side to
> this?
I'm not sure how you would do that and still be able to strap the top of
the skin down. Without pressing the skin in place (wrapped around the
front ribs), you wouldn't be able to drill the holes in the proper place
on the other side.
> What am I not seeing? The skin should be flush with the aft edge of
> the rear spar (top side) correct?
Yes, but if you try and drill before stretching the skin in place with
the straps, the holes will likely not line up when you tried to assemble
both sides.
> One last question, on the top side did you start drilling on the
> front spar line, working right and left and then back to the rear spar
or just
> the opposite. OR does it just not matter?
I'm not sure I remember, nor do I think it really matters, so long as the
skin is held in place securely. But I think I worked my way towards the
hinge as you suggested.
> Sorry for all of the questions........ I still have the "newbie"
> jitters!
I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but I still have those
jitters, and I'm about 75% done!
Mike
601XL
Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
> trying to install the rear frame channel (6B5-2) with the wing
> jig. I had expected the top flanges of both the rear frame channel
> and the jig rear channel to be in line. When I level the wing jig
> the rear jig channel top flange is about 25mm higher than the rear
> frame channel top flange. Anyone remember how the alignment look?
I really don't remember....but I'm not sure that the top flanges need to
line up. The purpose of the wing jig is to line up the rear channel fore
and aft on the fuselage, so that the rear attachment is in the proper
position for the wing.
> I also need to know if the bottom of the rear wing jig channel can
> be use to locate the hole for the flap control tube.
Good question. I didn't do it that way..instead, I measured the location
of that hole per the plans, and so far it seems to have turned out
correct. Although, I haven't mounted the wings (and flaps) yet, so who
knows... :)
Mike
601XL
Message 15
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| Subject: | 701 and 801 doors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming <gary@liming.org>
I would like to use some kind of flexible caulk on the 801 doors (nearly
the same as the 701 doors) between the plexiglass and the tubing
frame. Can you just use RTV silicone? I know some of these
caulks/adhesives will hurt some plastics. Anyone tried anything with success?
Gary Liming
Message 16
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming <gary@liming.org>
I've just updated my tools page to include the best reference books I've
found and have actually used. (its at www.liming.org/ch801/tools.html down
at the bottom) and I was wondering if anyone else has any references that
they've really used that are not on this list:
1. All 4 Bingelis books
2. AC43.13 Advisory Circular
3. Standard Aircraft Handbook
4. Standard Aviation Maintenance Handbook
5. Skyranch Engineering manual
6. Flight Testing Homebuilt Aircraft
7. Aeroelectric Connection
I have left out the packet of info on the FAA paperwork, etc. that you get
from your local FSDO for the registration rules, etc. Am I missing
anything good?
Gary Liming
Message 17
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| Subject: | New 601XL plans builder |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Oswaldo P Silva Filho" <oswaldo10@globo.com>
Hi folks:
Today I received my set of plans from Zenithair. Will put together a very
small workshop (7 X 10!) in the storage room of my apartment to start
making all the small components and will move to a larger site way down this
long road.
I'm expecting the project to span over 5 years.
Having joined this list since Jun02 I can say you folks helped me accomplish
2 things: decide for the Zodiac and be convinced that the thing is pretty
doable.
Many thanx for you all, and expecting to learn a lot more
Best Regards
Oswaldo
Rio de Janeiro
Brazil
Message 18
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "nhulin" <nhulin@hotmail.com>
Mike,
I had an email reply from William a couple of weeks back. He is still
intending to do the engine mounts. He advises that the stock engine cowling
will work with the front mounted starter with an added "bump". I'm still
following up with the local Corsa club members for a rebuildable core. There
doesn't seem to be too many Corvairs in the mid-west.
I'd really like to hear some first hand input from anyone who has actually
got to the point of hanging a Corvair on their 601. Anyone out there?
...neil
601XL - doing wings and stuff
> Me too!
>
> In fact, I sent an email to William Wynne to see how he was coming along
> (IF he was coming along) on a FWF kit for the Corvair/601XL application.
> Supposedly, he was working on one based on comments made in ZAC's
> newsletter. I sent that email a couple of weeks ago and haven't heard
> back yet. So any info on this engine choice would be great.
>
> Mike Fortunato
> 601XL
Message 19
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| Subject: | 701 and 801 doors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <jensenm33@sbcglobal.net>
Gary, Aircraft Spruce has 3M Caulk strips for sealing windshields. PN
08578 and has 61 12" strips for 13.50.
Jerry Jensen
601HDS Jab 3300 85%
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Liming
Subject: Zenith-List: 701 and 801 doors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming <gary@liming.org>
I would like to use some kind of flexible caulk on the 801 doors (nearly
the same as the 701 doors) between the plexiglass and the tubing
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