---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 02/13/03: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:13 AM - Re: Accuracy of Wing specifications (Grant Corriveau) 2. 07:17 AM - Accuracy if Wing Specifications (paulrod36) 3. 08:33 AM - Re: vw twin powered zenith (Garrou, Douglas) 4. 09:16 AM - downed subaru (Dave Alberti) 5. 10:37 AM - Re: downed subaru (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 6. 11:19 AM - Compass Swing (Leo J. Corbalis) 7. 11:50 AM - Re: Accuracy of Wing specifications (nhulin) 8. 12:20 PM - Re: Corvairs (wizard-24@juno.com) 9. 12:56 PM - Re: Compass Swing (Dave Austin) 10. 02:08 PM - XL wing jig (Timothy E. Barton) 11. 02:17 PM - Re: Compass Swing (wizard-24@juno.com) 12. 03:17 PM - Drilling top stabilizer skin (Mark Stauffer) 13. 04:32 PM - Re: Drilling top stabilizer skin (wizard-24@juno.com) 14. 04:37 PM - Re: XL wing jig (wizard-24@juno.com) 15. 04:55 PM - 701 and 801 doors (Gary Liming) 16. 05:04 PM - Useful Books (Gary Liming) 17. 05:04 PM - New 601XL plans builder (Oswaldo P Silva Filho) 18. 06:48 PM - Re: Corvairs (nhulin) 19. 07:55 PM - Re: 701 and 801 doors () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Accuracy of Wing specifications From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau on 03/02/12 19:08, wizard-24@juno.com at wizard-24@juno.com wrote: >> 2. How does anybody get 92.5 mm on a shaky piece of aluminum in the >> first place? ... > ....in fact, someone on the list wrote a while back that ZAC put a > 601 together without measuring anything, and it flew great. I hope that's > true. :) I admire those of you who are craftsmen and can build finished aircraft with close tolerances and even rivet lines that are exactly straight and perfectly spaced to match up at all the intersections!!! I AM NOT SO. I took Chris Heintz at his word when he said that he is not a craftsman, and wanted to design an aircraft that would be less demanding to build. I was not careless in my construction, but nevertheless I can assure you that you do not need to build the perfect aircraft in order for it to fly safely and wonderfully. (One place I did take extra care and attention was in the alignment of the fuselage and wing/tail structures, as I knew that these would have an ongoing effect on aircraft trim and performance.) But in terms of 'making' the aluminum pieces fit together - I used all the suggested tolerances available so I could keep moving and get it finished. I'm not recommending that anyone follow my poor craftsmanship - I just want to assure you that there is a very reasonable latitute available in construction (i.e. a beginner/learner CAN construct a great-flying aircraft!). fwiw - Happy building, finishing and FLYING! -- Grant Corriveau Montreal Zodiac 601hds/CAM100 C-GHTF ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:31 AM PST US From: "paulrod36" Subject: Zenith-List: Accuracy if Wing Specifications --> Zenith-List message posted by: "paulrod36" Thanks to Mike Fortunato and Grant Corriveau for allaying my fears as to how close the tolerances should be. I've opened up Cessna, Piper and Beech wings before, and seen shims, hammer marks, nailed rivets and other horribilia, so I sorta "knew", but I feel better for having extra input. I did make a few support blocks, just to help. But instead of carving wood, I cheated--- got some 1.25 inch Schedule 40 PVC pipe, and cut to length with a backsaw. Much easier than cutting up 2x4's. Anyway, Yeeehaaaaa! Pressin' on. Paul Rodriguez 601XL, Corvaired Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:39 AM PST US From: "Garrou, Douglas" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vw twin powered zenith --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" I saw one explanation of this interesting stat. The argument was that the twin is generally moving faster than a single, and when you crash, faster is very, very bad. Every extra knot can cause an extra knot, so to speak. Add in the difficulty of handling some twins on one engine, which can sometimes give you that really lovely "upside-down approach," and boom, bad survivability stats. Just a theory. With that said, it's also widely theorized that "one engine saves" (i.e., the flight/aircraft is saved because the twin was able to limp home on one engine) are probaby underreported. Why make a fuss when you land safely? Etc. Cheers Doug G. -----Original Message----- Time: 01:57:24 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vw twin powered zenith From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau [snip] And furthermore, the aircraft characteristics on one engine could be downright deadly if not properly handled. The statistics I had at the time revealed that after an engine failure, the survival rate in a SINGLE engine aircraft was higher than that in a twin. Why? I suppose because the single engine pilot usually pulled off an acceptable landing (i.e. walked away), whereas the twin pilot stood a very good chance of losing control while flying on one engine...? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:35 AM PST US From: "Dave Alberti" Subject: Zenith-List: downed subaru --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" NTSB Identification: FTW03LA091 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Saturday, February 01, 2003 in Grandfield, OK Aircraft: Gilbertson Zodiac CH601HDS, registration: N474BG Injuries: 1 Uninjured. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On February 1, 2003, approximately 1235 central standard time, a Gilbertson Zodiac CH601HDS, experimental airplane, N474BG, struck a terrace during a forced landing following a loss of engine power near Grandfield, Oklahoma. The airplane was built, owned, and operated by the pilot under 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91. The airline transport pilot, sole occupant, was not injured, and the airplane sustained substantial damage. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the local flight, and a flight plan was not filed. The test flight originated from Chattanooga, Oklahoma, approximately 1205. Local authorities and the pilot reported to the FAA inspector that the airplane struck the terrace, the nose landing gear collapsed, and the airplane structure twisted as the airplane came to rest in the field. During the impact sequence, the firewall and all components forward of the firewall separated from the airplane. The integrity of the fuel tank was compromised. The pilot reported to the FAA inspector that during a flight that morning, the Subaru engine was running rough; however, he landed the airplane without further incident. The carburetor screen was removed, cleaned of debris, and reinstalled by the pilot. During the afternoon flight, there was a total loss of engine power. The pilot performed the emergency landing procedures. The FAA inspector reported that the airplane had accumulated 28 of the required 40 hours of flight time under the operating limitations for the homebuilt airplane. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:37:51 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: downed subaru --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Of course now we want to know who built the engine and why it failed? Frank Stratus soob 601 HDS 280 hours Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Dave Alberti [mailto:daberti@execpc.com] Subject: Zenith-List: downed subaru --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" NTSB Identification: FTW03LA091 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Saturday, February 01, 2003 in Grandfield, OK Aircraft: Gilbertson Zodiac CH601HDS, registration: N474BG Injuries: 1 Uninjured. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On February 1, 2003, approximately 1235 central standard time, a Gilbertson Zodiac CH601HDS, experimental airplane, N474BG, struck a terrace during a forced landing following a loss of engine power near Grandfield, Oklahoma. The airplane was built, owned, and operated by the pilot under 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91. The airline transport pilot, sole occupant, was not injured, and the airplane sustained substantial damage. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the local flight, and a flight plan was not filed. The test flight originated from Chattanooga, Oklahoma, approximately 1205. Local authorities and the pilot reported to the FAA inspector that the airplane struck the terrace, the nose landing gear collapsed, and the airplane structure twisted as the airplane came to rest in the field. During the impact sequence, the firewall and all components forward of the firewall separated from the airplane. The integrity of the fuel tank was compromised. The pilot reported to the FAA inspector that during a flight that morning, the Subaru engine was running rough; however, he landed the airplane without further incident. The carburetor screen was removed, cleaned of debris, and reinstalled by the pilot. During the afternoon flight, there was a total loss of engine power. The pilot performed the emergency landing procedures. The FAA inspector reported that the airplane had accumulated 28 of the required 40 hours of flight time under the operating limitations for the homebuilt airplane. advertising on the Matronics Forums. Share: Share photos & files with other List members. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:19:53 AM PST US From: "Leo J. Corbalis" Subject: Zenith-List: Compass Swing --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis" ATTENTION !!! ATTENTION !!! This opening may seem execssive. Decide at the end. I started prep for swinging the compass by degaussing the entire cockpit/firewall and engine mount. I used 2 differient types of degaussing devices, a large open coil (used for degaussing TV sets and a tool degausser that looks like a transformer with only "E" laminations. I have the tools so I take advantage of them. I'm not sure I'd recommend getting these just to use on your plane if your compass swing comes out within normal limits because you may not get any noticable improvement. I do recommend you buy a "lensatic compass" from a surpulus or sporting goods store. This will give you an easy way to read the heading of your plane by sighting on a mark on the front and the rudder or antenna so you can easily repeat compass readings while standing about 10 feet in front of the plane. Do all the normal good things. Taildraggers put the tail up on a saw horse (me), close the canopy (steel tubes in the side rails), run the engine (you DID chock the wheels?) NOW for the suprise! Read the compass, pull the center stick back, now reread the compass. The right answer is hold the stick in the normal flight position!!! I found 10 degree errors Leo Corbalis ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:50:03 AM PST US From: "nhulin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Accuracy of Wing specifications --> Zenith-List message posted by: "nhulin" > Time: 02:03:58 PM PST US > From: "paulrod36" > Subject: Zenith-List: Accuracy of Wing specifications > > I'm finally around to doing the wings, ... > On P.6-W-8, ... main spar at 77.5 degrees.... 92.5mm up > from the table surface. Mine came out pretty close. I cut six short (~100mm) sections of 2 x 4 and then put a step in them with my router table. Kept making the step bigger until my cheap digital caliper told me I was within about 0.5mm. Using these blocks as supports for the rear channel, the spar sat true against the 78 degree plate. > 1. Should I bend the rib flange against the spar until I get the required distance? > Or should I shim the lower part of the flange? Should I just continue, taking > it on faith that when all the flanges are flush to the spar, the end result > will be a wing true enough to fly? I'd question it if you are more than a few millemetres out. From the above you are out by 12mm and I don't think that it should be like that. There could be something wrong with the ribs but I wouldn't expect them all to be wrong. I think you might need to have a closer look at everything. > 2. How does anybody get 92.5 mm on a shaky piece of aluminum in the first place? I had a good laugh at that when I first read it. Chris probably just wrote the numbers down as they came off his calculator. > Thanks, Paul Rodriguez > 601XL-Corvaired Hey, I'd be interested to find out more about your Corvair, I'm looking at going that way. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:20:00 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvairs From: wizard-24@juno.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > Hey, I'd be interested to find out more about your Corvair, I'm > looking at going that way. Me too! In fact, I sent an email to William Wynne to see how he was coming along (IF he was coming along) on a FWF kit for the Corvair/601XL application. Supposedly, he was working on one based on comments made in ZAC's newsletter. I sent that email a couple of weeks ago and haven't heard back yet. So any info on this engine choice would be great. Mike Fortunato 601XL ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:56:16 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Compass Swing --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" Right on, Leo. I have had to do the same with the stick on every compass swing. Compasses don't work very well when you are turning and banking, changing height etc anyway. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 - 525 hrs ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:08:17 PM PST US From: "Timothy E. Barton" Subject: Zenith-List: XL wing jig --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Timothy E. Barton" I need some help from the XL builders. I have my fuselage jigged up and trying to install the rear frame channel (6B5-2) with the wing jig. I had expected the top flanges of both the rear frame channel and the jig rear channel to be in line. When I level the wing jig the rear jig channel top flange is about 25mm higher than the rear frame channel top flange. Anyone remember how the alignment look? I also need to know if the bottom of the rear wing jig channel can be use to locate the hole for the flap control tube. Thanks, Tim Barton Rockford, IL bartonte@hotmail.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Compass Swing From: wizard-24@juno.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com Speaking of compasses....I bought a pedastal mount compass for my XL, but noticed when I get it close to its mounting point (above the instrument panel on the top) the compass is affected, presumably by all the metal around it. Is there a way to insulate against this, or do I just need to calculate the error it will have when mounted in that location and factor that into my headings? Mike Fortunato 601XL ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:26 PM PST US From: Mark Stauffer Subject: Zenith-List: Drilling top stabilizer skin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mark Stauffer Fellow 601 XL builders. Reference manual page T-47. I've laid out, drilled, and clecoed the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer (HS) skin. The manual tells me to go ahead and rivet the bottom of the HS skin then flip it over and strap the top side down with ratchet straps and 2x4s. The next step is to mark the rivet lines for the front and rear spars and ribs. My question is how can you effectively mark those holes with a 2x4 and 1x2 in the way? The front and rear spar I can see because they run parallel but you'll have gaps in the rib lines. While I'm deburring the bottom side I was thinking of marking the top side rivet lines BEFORE I rivet the bottom side. Is there a down side to this? What am I not seeing? The skin should be flush with the aft edge of the rear spar (top side) correct? One last question, on the top side did you start drilling on the front spar line, working right and left and then back to the rear spar or just the opposite. OR does it just not matter? The last step for drilling the skin is to insert the hinge and drill it, that's why I'm thinking you start on the front spar. Sorry for all of the questions........ I still have the "newbie" jitters! :-) Thanks for any light you can shed on this. Mark 601 XL SN:4999 Almost done with stabilizer and elevator. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:30 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drilling top stabilizer skin From: wizard-24@juno.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > My question is how can you effectively mark > those holes with a 2x4 and 1x2 in the way? The front and rear spar I can see > because they run parallel but you'll have gaps in the rib lines. Once you can get some holes drilled and cleco'd, and can then loosen the straps and move the boards to get to the rest of the rib lines. > While I'm deburring the bottom side I was thinking of marking the > top side rivet lines BEFORE I rivet the bottom side. Is there a down side to > this? I'm not sure how you would do that and still be able to strap the top of the skin down. Without pressing the skin in place (wrapped around the front ribs), you wouldn't be able to drill the holes in the proper place on the other side. > What am I not seeing? The skin should be flush with the aft edge of > the rear spar (top side) correct? Yes, but if you try and drill before stretching the skin in place with the straps, the holes will likely not line up when you tried to assemble both sides. > One last question, on the top side did you start drilling on the > front spar line, working right and left and then back to the rear spar or just > the opposite. OR does it just not matter? I'm not sure I remember, nor do I think it really matters, so long as the skin is held in place securely. But I think I worked my way towards the hinge as you suggested. > Sorry for all of the questions........ I still have the "newbie" > jitters! I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but I still have those jitters, and I'm about 75% done! Mike 601XL ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL wing jig From: wizard-24@juno.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > trying to install the rear frame channel (6B5-2) with the wing > jig. I had expected the top flanges of both the rear frame channel > and the jig rear channel to be in line. When I level the wing jig > the rear jig channel top flange is about 25mm higher than the rear > frame channel top flange. Anyone remember how the alignment look? I really don't remember....but I'm not sure that the top flanges need to line up. The purpose of the wing jig is to line up the rear channel fore and aft on the fuselage, so that the rear attachment is in the proper position for the wing. > I also need to know if the bottom of the rear wing jig channel can > be use to locate the hole for the flap control tube. Good question. I didn't do it that way..instead, I measured the location of that hole per the plans, and so far it seems to have turned out correct. Although, I haven't mounted the wings (and flaps) yet, so who knows... :) Mike 601XL ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:55:49 PM PST US From: Gary Liming Subject: Zenith-List: 701 and 801 doors --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming I would like to use some kind of flexible caulk on the 801 doors (nearly the same as the 701 doors) between the plexiglass and the tubing frame. Can you just use RTV silicone? I know some of these caulks/adhesives will hurt some plastics. Anyone tried anything with success? Gary Liming ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:51 PM PST US From: Gary Liming Subject: Zenith-List: Useful Books --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming I've just updated my tools page to include the best reference books I've found and have actually used. (its at www.liming.org/ch801/tools.html down at the bottom) and I was wondering if anyone else has any references that they've really used that are not on this list: 1. All 4 Bingelis books 2. AC43.13 Advisory Circular 3. Standard Aircraft Handbook 4. Standard Aviation Maintenance Handbook 5. Skyranch Engineering manual 6. Flight Testing Homebuilt Aircraft 7. Aeroelectric Connection I have left out the packet of info on the FAA paperwork, etc. that you get from your local FSDO for the registration rules, etc. Am I missing anything good? Gary Liming ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:57 PM PST US From: "Oswaldo P Silva Filho" Subject: Zenith-List: New 601XL plans builder --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Oswaldo P Silva Filho" Hi folks: Today I received my set of plans from Zenithair. Will put together a very small workshop (7 X 10!) in the storage room of my apartment to start making all the small components and will move to a larger site way down this long road. I'm expecting the project to span over 5 years. Having joined this list since Jun02 I can say you folks helped me accomplish 2 things: decide for the Zodiac and be convinced that the thing is pretty doable. Many thanx for you all, and expecting to learn a lot more Best Regards Oswaldo Rio de Janeiro Brazil ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:27 PM PST US From: "nhulin" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corvairs --> Zenith-List message posted by: "nhulin" Mike, I had an email reply from William a couple of weeks back. He is still intending to do the engine mounts. He advises that the stock engine cowling will work with the front mounted starter with an added "bump". I'm still following up with the local Corsa club members for a rebuildable core. There doesn't seem to be too many Corvairs in the mid-west. I'd really like to hear some first hand input from anyone who has actually got to the point of hanging a Corvair on their 601. Anyone out there? ...neil 601XL - doing wings and stuff > Me too! > > In fact, I sent an email to William Wynne to see how he was coming along > (IF he was coming along) on a FWF kit for the Corvair/601XL application. > Supposedly, he was working on one based on comments made in ZAC's > newsletter. I sent that email a couple of weeks ago and haven't heard > back yet. So any info on this engine choice would be great. > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:38 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 701 and 801 doors --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary, Aircraft Spruce has 3M Caulk strips for sealing windshields. PN 08578 and has 61 12" strips for 13.50. Jerry Jensen 601HDS Jab 3300 85% -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Liming Subject: Zenith-List: 701 and 801 doors --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming I would like to use some kind of flexible caulk on the 801 doors (nearly the same as the 701 doors) between the plexiglass and the tubing