Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:20 AM - Re: vw twin powered zenith (Mark A. Wood)
2. 07:22 AM - Re: 701 and 801 doors (dan john)
3. 09:25 AM - Re: Drilling top stabilizer skin (CLOJAN@aol.com)
4. 09:34 AM - tool for soft rivets (Larry Bohannon)
5. 10:07 AM - Re: vw twin powered zenith (Royer, Michel)
6. 10:28 AM - Re: tool for soft rivets (Michel Therrien)
7. 11:03 AM - Re: tool for soft rivets (Steve Danielson)
8. 12:37 PM - Re: tool for soft rivets (H. Robert Schoenberger)
9. 12:51 PM - Re: tool for soft rivets (Randy L. Thwing)
10. 02:49 PM - Re: Compass Swing (Grant Corriveau)
11. 04:45 PM - Re: tool for soft rivets (Winston Ellis)
12. 04:49 PM - Re: tool for soft rivets (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com)
13. 06:09 PM - Re: Useful Books (Charles Hagerty)
14. 07:20 PM - Re: tool for soft rivets @ 99 CENTS (Fred Poor)
15. 07:23 PM - Re: tool for soft rivets (Fred Poor)
16. 09:09 PM - Re: vw twin powered zenith (Dr. Perry Morrison)
17. 11:31 PM - Re: tool for soft rivets (Jari Kaija)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: vw twin powered zenith |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark A. Wood" <Mark.Wood@uvm.edu>
I wanted to say two things.
First, I agree with Doug on the idea of a large part of the ending up
dead problem with twins on one engine being due to the high
stall/landing speed. This would not be a problem with a twin based
on the 601.
Second, I think it is great that someone came up with a twin 601 on
there own, based I will assume on the pictures of the factory 620. I
think we should all give him our support any way we can, and look
forward to any flight reports he may give us. I know I do.
Mark Wood
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
>
>I saw one explanation of this interesting stat. The argument was that the
>twin is generally moving faster than a single, and when you crash, faster is
>very, very bad. Every extra knot can cause an extra knot, so to speak. Add
>in the difficulty of handling some twins on one engine, which can sometimes
>give you that really lovely "upside-down approach," and boom, bad
>survivability stats. Just a theory.
>
>With that said, it's also widely theorized that "one engine saves" (i.e.,
>the flight/aircraft is saved because the twin was able to limp home on one
>engine) are probaby underreported. Why make a fuss when you land safely?
>Etc.
>
>Cheers
>Doug G.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 701 and 801 doors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: dan john <ballmell@yahoo.com>
Hi Gary,when I built my BD-4 I used garden variety
silicone (clear) that I picked up at a local hardware
store.Just sanded the Plex and the alum. skin.The
windows stayed in place for years-and at speeds just a
bit more than the 801 will fly.The silicone provides a
nice flexible adhesive joint.Just don`t get any were
you want to paint. John
--- Gary Liming <gary@liming.org> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming
> <gary@liming.org>
>
>
> I would like to use some kind of flexible caulk on
> the 801 doors (nearly
> the same as the 701 doors) between the plexiglass
> and the tubing
> frame. Can you just use RTV silicone? I know some
> of these
> caulks/adhesives will hurt some plastics. Anyone
> tried anything with success?
>
> Gary Liming
>
>
>
> Contributions
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>
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>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Drilling top stabilizer skin |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: CLOJAN@aol.com
In a message dated 2/13/03 3:18:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mark.stauffer@comcast.net writes:
> . The next step is to mark the rivet lines for the front and
> rear spars and ribs. My question is how can you effectively mark those holes
> with a 2x4 and 1x2 in the way
Mark: I predrilled with #40bit on the top skin and lined up the holes with
the center line on the ribs.( just like the other parts we did this way) We
started from the center front spar and worked back and out. It all came out
fine. We did have to file a couple of mm off of the skin at the rear spar
because it did hang over slightly when it was done. Make sure you use the
straps all the way around the bench even on final assembly or you may get a
little kink in the nose of the stab like we did it will be covered by the
fiberglass piece.) You are catching up with us.
Jack Russell 601xl
Wiggly surfaces just about done
on to the fuselage (saving wings for last)
Message 4
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| Subject: | tool for soft rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Bohannon" <lbohannon1@mindspring.com>
Does anybody know of a way to set the soft rivets along the trailing edge? I don't
want to spend $250 for a rivet squeezer but would spend $100 or less if anybody
knows where I could order one and what size it should be?
Thanks
Larry Bohannon
701 just started
Winder, Georgia
Message 5
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| Subject: | vw twin powered zenith |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Royer, Michel" <RoyerM@tc.gc.ca>
If i may add my .02Cdn, i think that it is very interesting and I agree
with Mark on the support issue.
Wondering if the reduction gear is necessary because of the
small size of prop that he will be using.
How do i know????
I had a quickie with the 2100CC(80HP) and because of the small diameter
of the prop we were not putting a reduction gear.
If the 2100cc was used i wonder if one would be enought to keep it
in the air, the 1600cc(50-57HP) may not be but about the 2100???
Michel Royer
613-998-7812
royerm@tc.gc.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark A. Wood [mailto:Mark.Wood@uvm.edu]
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vw twin powered zenith
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark A. Wood" <Mark.Wood@uvm.edu>
I wanted to say two things.
First, I agree with Doug on the idea of a large part of the ending up
dead problem with twins on one engine being due to the high
stall/landing speed. This would not be a problem with a twin based
on the 601.
Second, I think it is great that someone came up with a twin 601 on
there own, based I will assume on the pictures of the factory 620. I
think we should all give him our support any way we can, and look
forward to any flight reports he may give us. I know I do.
Mark Wood
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
>
>I saw one explanation of this interesting stat. The argument was that the
>twin is generally moving faster than a single, and when you crash, faster
is
>very, very bad. Every extra knot can cause an extra knot, so to speak.
Add
>in the difficulty of handling some twins on one engine, which can sometimes
>give you that really lovely "upside-down approach," and boom, bad
>survivability stats. Just a theory.
>
>With that said, it's also widely theorized that "one engine saves" (i.e.,
>the flight/aircraft is saved because the twin was able to limp home on one
>engine) are probaby underreported. Why make a fuss when you land safely?
>Etc.
>
>Cheers
>Doug G.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: tool for soft rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
For soft rivets, there are pretty cheap rivet
squeezers ($50) from US tools and others. These ones
are not very good for hard rivets or larger rivets.
Alternatively, if you have only a few rivets, you can
use a small hammer to tap on the rivet while you apply
a bigger hammer on the other side. I've done a few of
the larger rivets like that.
Michel
--- Larry Bohannon <lbohannon1@mindspring.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Bohannon"
> <lbohannon1@mindspring.com>
>
> Does anybody know of a way to set the soft rivets
> along the trailing edge? I don't want to spend $250
> for a rivet squeezer but would spend $100 or less if
> anybody knows where I could order one and what size
> it should be?
> Thanks
> Larry Bohannon
> 701 just started
> Winder, Georgia
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> latest messages.
> List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm
> Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: tool for soft rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Danielson" <steved@nc.rr.com>
I don't know about sizes, but I have seen some inexpensive rivet squeezers
at teh Yard Store:
http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?MerchantID=STK00006&Action=Catalog&
Type=Product&ID=12036
The home page is www.yardstore.com
Also, within the last day or two, I saw some pictures of a Vise Grip
modified to squeeze soft rivets. I don't remember where, but maybe someone
esle can offer some advice there.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Bohannon" <lbohannon1@mindspring.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: tool for soft rivets
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Bohannon"
<lbohannon1@mindspring.com>
>
> Does anybody know of a way to set the soft rivets along the trailing edge?
I don't want to spend $250 for a rivet squeezer but would spend $100 or less
if anybody knows where I could order one and what size it should be?
> Thanks
> Larry Bohannon
> 701 just started
> Winder, Georgia
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: tool for soft rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "H. Robert Schoenberger" <HRS4@prodigy.net>
I'm interested in this also. I used the hammer method as shown in the
manual on the trailing edge of the elevator and was extremely disappointed
with the results. Although I'm sure it's safe from a strength viewpoint, the
result was very sloppy and not nearly as nice as the pop rivets.
Harbor Freight has an outlet store about 15 miles south of the NC / SC line
right off an I-95 interchange (of interest for you east coasters going to
Sun n Fun). I checked them out about two weeks ago, and they didn't carry
rivet squeezers at this store. They did have lots of other interesting
stuff including a hand riveter with a head that rotates 360 deg. for about
$20. The interesting thing this riveter is that the concave heads supplied
with the air riveter I got from ZAC fit this hand riveter.
I have been looking at some of the hand squeezers in a couple of the
avaition supply catalogues and am confused on what must be purchased in
addition to the basis squeezer in order to make a rounded head. Help
please. Thank you. Hap Schoenberger 701 tail finished, working on the
right wing.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Bohannon" <lbohannon1@mindspring.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: tool for soft rivets
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Bohannon"
<lbohannon1@mindspring.com>
>
> Does anybody know of a way to set the soft rivets along the trailing edge?
I don't want to spend $250 for a rivet squeezer but would spend $100 or less
if anybody knows where I could order one and what size it should be?
> Thanks
> Larry Bohannon
> 701 just started
> Winder, Georgia
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: tool for soft rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
Hello Larry:
Zenith used to illustrate this tool in their assembly manuals, is it not
still shown? If my description is inadequate, email me and I will scan the
page and send.
Get a pair of inexpensive common, slip-joint pliers (or in some parts of
Georgia "plars") Get a larger rather than smaller pair, you will appreciate
the leverage advantage. The jaws usually have serrations on the face, grind
the jaws (hold against belt sander, for example) until smooth (keep them
parallel!) In the face of one jaw, take your Dremel tool with a pointed
stone and grind a depression that matches the round head of your No. 3 soft
rivet. Grind slightly less than full rivet head depth. Place a rivet
through your trailing edge, head in the correct jaw, keeping the rivet head
against the skin, give a squeeze and the opposing smooth jaw will form the
shop head. Piece of cake!!!
Randy L. Thwing, 701 plans, Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Bohannon <lbohannon1@mindspring.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: tool for soft rivets
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Compass Swing |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantC@ca.inter.net>
on 03/02/13 17:21, wizard-24@juno.com at wizard-24@juno.com wrote:
> ... Is there a way to insulate against this, or do I just need to
> calculate the error it will have when mounted in that location and factor
> that into my headings?
>
> Mike Fortunato
> 601XL
Hi Mike,
Basically the answer is 'yes'... but obviously the further you can mount it
away from big chunks of metal, and electrical circuits, the better it'll be.
(Mine is currently on the top of the panel, but to further isolate it, and
make better space for my handheld GPS, I'd prefer to suspend it from the
canopy just above the panel).
Once installed and ready to fly, you'll do a 'compass swing' which is a
method for averaging out all the location errors around the compass rose.
From this you'll fill out a compass correction card which must be installed
on/near the compass for use in flight.
(see the archives for detailed explanations of how to do this).
Regards,
Grant
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: tool for soft rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Winston Ellis <w1mdi@cox-internet.com>
I took an old pair of large vise grips and ground the jaws smooth and then dimpled
one side with a drill for locating the rivet head. I then experimented with
the jaw settings until I was getting a properly upset rivet and
then taped the adjustment screw in place with electrical tape. Works great.
Winston Ellis
701/Suzuki
Ketchum, Idaho
Larry Bohannon wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Bohannon" <lbohannon1@mindspring.com>
>
> Does anybody know of a way to set the soft rivets along the trailing edge? I
don't want to spend $250 for a rivet squeezer but would spend $100 or less if
anybody knows where I could order one and what size it should be?
> Thanks
> Larry Bohannon
> 701 just started
> Winder, Georgia
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: tool for soft rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com
There are three schools of thought as to how one handles (no pun intended)
the "soft rivet" issue on the 701.
(1) Buy the high-dollar squeezer.
(2) Make a squeezer by grinding some of those Georgia "plars"
(3) Make a squeezer by building up the jaws of some pliers.
You may want to study this third option. The ideal starting place
would be pliers with parallel jaws. Obviously we would all like for the
rivet to look neat when we are done. Unless the jaws are
parallel/even/flat/etc at the position where the rivit is "set"
we end up with a "sloped" surface opposite the rivet head.
Those with access to the discard pile anywhere wire harnesses are
manufactured or assembled may find junked crimpers of all types. These may
have dies attached with Allen-head screws. A number of makes and models are
usually available at "ham" sidewalk sales. Normally all these crimpers go
un-noticed/un-sold because nobody can figure what to use them for.
Just forget the "crimp" function and look for the "parallel jaw" feature.
You will recognize this when you see it.......there is an extra pivot point
between the handle and the business end, and this also provides extra
mechanical advantage (makes squeezing easier). Most of these items
originally cost in the hundreds of dollars and were used in the aerospace
industry.
Zed Smith
701/R912 werking on the wangs here in Northeast Texas
do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Useful Books |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Charles Hagerty" <chagerty@worldnet.att.net>
Gary
Thank you for taking the time to put such detail into your project. Your
list of tools was very very helpful. I also enjoyed your description of
making the assembly table. Tell me something though. You did use a 4 x d12
sheet of plywood and MDF didn't you. Thanks again.
Chuck Hagerty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Liming" <gary@liming.org>
Subject: Zenith-List: Useful Books
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming <gary@liming.org>
>
>
> I've just updated my tools page to include the best reference books I've
> found and have actually used. (its at www.liming.org/ch801/tools.html
down
> at the bottom) and I was wondering if anyone else has any references that
> they've really used that are not on this list:
>
> 1. All 4 Bingelis books
> 2. AC43.13 Advisory Circular
> 3. Standard Aircraft Handbook
> 4. Standard Aviation Maintenance Handbook
> 5. Skyranch Engineering manual
> 6. Flight Testing Homebuilt Aircraft
> 7. Aeroelectric Connection
>
> I have left out the packet of info on the FAA paperwork, etc. that you get
> from your local FSDO for the registration rules, etc. Am I missing
> anything good?
>
> Gary Liming
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: tool for soft rivets @ 99 CENTS |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Poor <fredspoor2002@yahoo.com>
I can't believe you guys can't keep it simple and
cheap- IF YOU CHANGE THE "NOTCH" ON A CHEAP SET OF
PLIERS, THE JAWS ARE PARALLEL------- No. 2 is the
thing to do, as mentioned earlier by someone else and
they told just how to do it--- 1) buy a set of cheap
pliers, 2) grind the jaws smooth, 3) set a dimple (the
size of the rivet head) and squeeze the damn thing----
DON'T USE A HAMMER AS ONE PERSON SUGGESTED---- I
built my "soft rivet setter" for 99 cents. I bought
my pliers for that amount at a place called MARDEN'S
---- Chris has done so well to keep it simple----- I
think some of you folks, are building without getting
the plans etc from Zenair/ Zenith---- Chris explains
so much of what some of you folks ask of this site to
explain-- "fred" do no archive
--- ZSMITH3rd@aol.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com
>
> There are three schools of thought as to how one
> handles (no pun intended)
> the "soft rivet" issue on the 701.
>
> (1) Buy the high-dollar squeezer.
>
> (2) Make a squeezer by grinding some of those
> Georgia "plars"
>
> (3) Make a squeezer by building up the jaws of some
> pliers.
> You may want to study this third option. The
> ideal starting place
> would be pliers with parallel jaws. Obviously we
> would all like for the
> rivet to look neat when we are done. Unless the
> jaws are
> parallel/even/flat/etc at the position where the
> rivit is "set"
> we end up with a "sloped" surface opposite the rivet
> head.
> Those with access to the discard pile anywhere wire
> harnesses are
> manufactured or assembled may find junked crimpers
> of all types. These may
> have dies attached with Allen-head screws. A number
> of makes and models are
> usually available at "ham" sidewalk sales. Normally
> all these crimpers go
> un-noticed/un-sold because nobody can figure what to
> use them for.
> Just forget the "crimp" function and look for the
> "parallel jaw" feature.
> You will recognize this when you see it.......there
> is an extra pivot point
> between the handle and the business end, and this
> also provides extra
> mechanical advantage (makes squeezing easier). Most
> of these items
> originally cost in the hundreds of dollars and were
> used in the aerospace
> industry.
>
> Zed Smith
> 701/R912 werking on the wangs here in Northeast
> Texas
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> latest messages.
> List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm
> Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: tool for soft rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Poor <fredspoor2002@yahoo.com>
THIS GUY KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT-- "fred" do
not archive
--- Winston Ellis <w1mdi@cox-internet.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Winston Ellis
> <w1mdi@cox-internet.com>
>
> I took an old pair of large vise grips and ground
> the jaws smooth and then dimpled one side with a
> drill for locating the rivet head. I then
> experimented with the jaw settings until I was
> getting a properly upset rivet and
> then taped the adjustment screw in place with
> electrical tape. Works great.
>
>
> Winston Ellis
> 701/Suzuki
> Ketchum, Idaho
>
> Larry Bohannon wrote:
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry
> Bohannon" <lbohannon1@mindspring.com>
> >
> > Does anybody know of a way to set the soft rivets
> along the trailing edge? I don't want to spend $250
> for a rivet squeezer but would spend $100 or less if
> anybody knows where I could order one and what size
> it should be?
> > Thanks
> > Larry Bohannon
> > 701 just started
> > Winder, Georgia
> >
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> latest messages.
> List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm
> Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: vw twin powered zenith |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison" <prm@softhome.net>
Will a twin powered 601 wing actually gain anything other than fuel
burn?
Maybe someone with a better understanding of the airfoil could comment?
Perry Morrison
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A. Wood" <Mark.Wood@uvm.edu>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vw twin powered zenith
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark A. Wood" <Mark.Wood@uvm.edu>
>
> I wanted to say two things.
>
> First, I agree with Doug on the idea of a large part of the ending up
> dead problem with twins on one engine being due to the high
> stall/landing speed. This would not be a problem with a twin based
> on the 601.
>
> Second, I think it is great that someone came up with a twin 601 on
> there own, based I will assume on the pictures of the factory 620. I
> think we should all give him our support any way we can, and look
> forward to any flight reports he may give us. I know I do.
>
> Mark Wood
>
>
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
> >
> >I saw one explanation of this interesting stat. The argument was that
the
> >twin is generally moving faster than a single, and when you crash, faster
is
> >very, very bad. Every extra knot can cause an extra knot, so to speak.
Add
> >in the difficulty of handling some twins on one engine, which can
sometimes
> >give you that really lovely "upside-down approach," and boom, bad
> >survivability stats. Just a theory.
> >
> >With that said, it's also widely theorized that "one engine saves" (i.e.,
> >the flight/aircraft is saved because the twin was able to limp home on
one
> >engine) are probaby underreported. Why make a fuss when you land safely?
> >Etc.
> >
> >Cheers
> >Doug G.
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: tool for soft rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" <jari.kaija@pp.inet.fi>
Couple hours of work and you can make this kind of tool for rivets:
http://www.project-ch701.net/ch701_wings/big_wingf138.jpg
....works perfectly.
-Jari
www.project-ch701.net
(I do not accept messages from yahoo, msn, hotmail etc spammer supported
places...)
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