Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:14 AM - alum bar? (alex trent)
2. 05:05 AM - EJ-22 (Magnus Matthiasson)
3. 06:54 AM - Re: 701 bungee/New Territory (David Barth)
4. 08:09 AM - Re: Rotax 912 school (Doon47@aol.com)
5. 08:27 AM - Re: 701 bungee? (Doon47@aol.com)
6. 08:37 AM - Re: alum bar? (Randy L. Thwing)
7. 08:46 AM - 701 flaps.. 30 degrees too much? (Jon Croke)
8. 10:37 AM - Re: alum bar? (Flydog1966@aol.com)
9. 11:50 AM - Removing soft copper rivets (H. Robert Schoenberger)
10. 12:41 PM - Re: Removing soft copper rivets (Ed Kramer)
11. 12:51 PM - Assembly table (Gary Liming)
12. 12:52 PM - Re: Removing soft copper rivets (g t)
13. 01:23 PM - Re: EJ-22 (Philip Polstra)
14. 01:32 PM - Re: EJ-22 (Fred Poor)
15. 01:57 PM - Re: alum bar? (MJBTOL@aol.com)
16. 01:58 PM - 6.5 mm reamer (David Barth)
17. 02:21 PM - Ammeter for a 912 (Leo Gates)
18. 02:28 PM - Garmin GPS 196 (Schallgren@aol.com)
19. 03:34 PM - Re: Removing soft copper rivets (Winston Ellis)
20. 05:38 PM - Re: 701 flaps.. 30 degrees too much? (TomLazear@netscape.net (John Lazear))
21. 08:27 PM - Re: alum bar? (Randy L. Thwing)
Message 1
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: alex trent <atrent7@cogeco.ca>
> Time: 07:45:38 AM PST US
> From: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: cutting alum bar
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
>
> I wouldn't call 3/16" thickness Aluminum "bar" stock.
Then what would you call a piece 3/16" x 4" x 6' ?
Anyway what ever you want to call it thanks for the tip.
A sabre saw works
> just fine, use a medium to fine tooth pitch blade (18 tpi?), tape up or
> otherwise shield the foot so the sheet surface doesn't get scratched, hang
> on and follow your line, cut slightly oversize, belt sand or file to finish.
> Piece of cake!
>
> Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas
>
>
> Subject: Zenith-List: cutting alum bar
>
>
> >when you don't have a power hack
> > saw or band saw.
>
Message 2
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Magnus Matthiasson" <dofra@simnet.is>
Hello list.
I was wondering if any of you building or flying the CH601
are using the EJ-22 engine from Subaru?
I ask this because I have one from a Legacy year 1990.
I would like to know if any one has experience with it
and what modifycations there has to be done before instaling
it in the plane.
Thanks
Best regards
Magnus Matthiasson,
601XL,Zen. #5034
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 701 bungee/New Territory |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
Hey Zed. I don't know about your 701 question but I
can shed a little light on the new territory question.
A lot of the remote portions of the NorthWest
Territories was just too remote to be adequately
represented so they created Nunavut. I think it is
the largest partion of land of any territory or
province in Canada but it is all north of 60 and VERY
sparsly populated.
David
do not archive
>
> And for you guys in Canada, "Hockey Day" yesterday
> was excellent. They
> mentioned several times something about a "new
> territory". What was that?
> We just never get Hudson Bay news in Texas.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Zed Smith
> 701/R912
> do not archive
=====
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder
Currently making parts.
Stab and Rudder waiting for skins
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 school |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Doon47@aol.com
JON - Thanks very much for the information concerning factory manuals. I
can't keep myself from asking - what was the interesting information
concerning the difference between the 912 and 912s models?
Chip Muldoon
701/912s
90%/60% to go do not archive
doon47@aol.com
Message 5
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Doon47@aol.com
ZED - I'm at about the same point with my 701. I took delivery of my kit in
Sept 01 and although it was supposed to be the SP addition, many of the parts
were not updated. Also the plans were third addition, ZAC provided 4th
addition plans and parts upon request at no charge - they've always been
great.
Although I did initially recieve the heavy nosegear the firewall
braces had to be updated. The bungee was obviously too thin for the upgraded
firewall and when ZAC sent the new bungee it appeared to be 4 times
thicker. once mounted and fully extended (no engine) it is loose and close to
coming off. Is that what you're seeing?
Chip Muldoon
701/912s
doon47@aol.com
Message 6
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: alex trent <atrent7@cogeco.ca>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing"
<n4546v@mindspring.com>
> >
> > I wouldn't call 3/16" thickness Aluminum "bar" stock.
>
> Then what would you call a piece 3/16" x 4" x 6' ?
> Anyway what ever you want to call it thanks for the tip.
Answer:
A piece of thick "sheet" aluminum. It was cut from a rolled sheet, it was
never extruded as a 3/16" x 4" "bar".
There is a thickness where "sheet" turns into "plate" Although rectangles
can be extruded to standard sizes (i.e. 1" x 2"), these same sizes are often
"sawn" from plate of the appropriate thickness.
This was the problem with building you own landing gear spring for the
original 701 design, it required a 3/4 x 3 1/4 piece of 2024. While this
is not a common extruded rectangle size, it is no problem to have it sawn
from plate. If you were buying 2000 lbs. of them, they would be very
inexpensive. When I asked for a quote through metal suppliers for 1 ea.
with associated plate sawing charges, it was cheaper to buy the finished
blank from ZA.
And, don't get me started on the widely tossed around term: "billet".
Best Regards,
Randy, Las vegas
Message 7
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| Subject: | 701 flaps.. 30 degrees too much? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <Jon@joncroke.com>
Looking for field experience:
I have noticed that the new 701 plans only call for allowing 15 degrees of
flaps--- the older plans have another position for up to 30 degrees.
This would lead one to beleive that the 30 isnt being used or is
undesirable.
Can any of you comment on whether the 30 is practical or not --I need to
know whether to include this position on the flap actuator. If it is a
safety problem (accidently going to 30) then Id prefer not too include it.
Thanks
Jon
www.joncroke.com
Message 8
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com
So, its only called bar stock if its extruded? Is 3/16th always cut from a
sheet?
I have a piece of 3/16x1 -1/2 x2feet, that shows no evidence of being sawn
/cut from a sheet. Do they put a smooth finish on the edges after cutting? It
even has several deep gouges running down its entire length on the 1-1/2 inch
dimension, looks like there must have been some kind of .... well,shit,on the
rolls/(dies) I asked Airparts for a replacement and it was the same,with
its gouges matching perfectly with the first piece.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Removing soft copper rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "H. Robert Schoenberger" <HRS4@prodigy.net>
List . . . does anyone have any experience or ideas for removing all of the soft
copper rivets along the trailing edge of the 701 elevator so they can be replaced
and squeezed more neatly? I am not satisfied with the way mine look. I
used the hammer as suggested in the manual. The manual doesn't mention anything
about a squeezer which I didn't know existed until the recent list discussion
over the past week. One of the reference books I have talks about drilling
out solid rivets, but they also mention that the heads have a dimple to help
start the drill. I think this is for the larger solid steel rivets and not the
small copper ones which don't have said dimple. Thanks Hap Schoenberger
701
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Removing soft copper rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" <edkramer@prodigy.net>
Hap!
The dimple in a solid alum. rivet is a marking that means it's a
structural rivet. A rivet without a dimple is a non-structural rivet (soft
1100 alum). The copper color is a cadmium coating, for corrosion protection.
To remove a solid alum rivet: Center punch the rivet and use the same size
drill bit as the rivet and drill just to the skin. Do not drill right
through. It's almost certain you'll elongate the hole, then to the next
larger size rivet . Set the same size diameter punch in the hole you drilled
in the head of the rivet and break the head off. Then, use the punch to push
the remaining rivet out. This will prevent the hole from getting any larger.
Ed Kramer
West Seneca, NY
CH 701, almost finished with left wing
edkramer@prodigy.net
----- Original Message -----
Subject: Zenith-List: Removing soft copper rivets
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "H. Robert Schoenberger"
<HRS4@prodigy.net>
>
> List . . . does anyone have any experience or ideas for removing all of
the soft copper rivets along the trailing edge of the 701 elevator so they
can be replaced and squeezed more neatly? I am not satisfied with the way
mine look. I used the hammer as suggested in the manual. The manual
doesn't mention anything about a squeezer which I didn't know existed until
the recent list discussion over the past week. One of the reference books I
have talks about drilling out solid rivets, but they also mention that the
heads have a dimple to help start the drill. I think this is for the larger
solid steel rivets and not the small copper ones which don't have said
dimple. Thanks Hap Schoenberger 701
Message 11
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming <gary@liming.org>
At 09:07 PM 2/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> I also enjoyed your description of
>making the assembly table. Tell me something though. You did use a 4 x d12
>sheet of plywood and MDF didn't you. Thanks again.
>Chuck Hagerty
Hi Chuck, I used one 4 and one 8 foot sheet of 4 ft wide plywood, cut down
on the sides to allow for a clamping lip, screwed into the beams. Then I
used a 4 and 8 foot full width piece of MDF, placed so the butt joint were
not on top of the plywood joint, and screwed that in place. Despite
pounding on it and standing on it many times, it has stayed straight and
level for over 2 years now.
Over time, some drill-through holes have eaten away at some sections, so
next time the table is clear, I may flip the MDF pieces over for a new
surface.
I don't think there was $8 difference between the plywood beams and 2x10s.
Gary
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Removing soft copper rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: g t <wauwis2002@yahoo.com>
Another Hint. Using the same rivets, put together a couple of scraps. Then try
this technique to get the feel for rivet removal before you go at your real
project. Avoids damaging the real thing while learning this technique. Good
Luck
Ed Kramer <edkramer@prodigy.net> wrote:--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed
Kramer"
Hap!
The dimple in a solid alum. rivet is a marking that means it's a
structural rivet. A rivet without a dimple is a non-structural rivet (soft
1100 alum). The copper color is a cadmium coating, for corrosion protection.
To remove a solid alum rivet: Center punch the rivet and use the same size
drill bit as the rivet and drill just to the skin. Do not drill right
through. It's almost certain you'll elongate the hole, then to the next
larger size rivet . Set the same size diameter punch in the hole you drilled
in the head of the rivet and break the head off. Then, use the punch to push
the remaining rivet out. This will prevent the hole from getting any larger.
Ed Kramer
West Seneca, NY
CH 701, almost finished with left wing
edkramer@prodigy.net
----- Original Message -----
Subject: Zenith-List: Removing soft copper rivets
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "H. Robert Schoenberger"
---------------------------------
>
> List . . . does anyone have any experience or ideas for removing all of
the soft copper rivets along the trailing edge of the 701 elevator so they
can be replaced and squeezed more neatly? I am not satisfied with the way
mine look. I used the hammer as suggested in the manual. The manual
doesn't mention anything about a squeezer which I didn't know existed until
the recent list discussion over the past week. One of the reference books I
have talks about drilling out solid rivets, but they also mention that the
heads have a dimple to help start the drill. I think this is for the larger
solid steel rivets and not the small copper ones which don't have said
dimple. Thanks Hap Schoenberger 701
---------------------------------
Message 13
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra" <ppolstra@mindspring.com>
I don't think this engine is within the weight & hp range for the 601. You
might be able to fit it on an 801 or 640.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Magnus Matthiasson" <dofra@simnet.is>
I was wondering if any of you building or flying the CH601
are using the EJ-22 engine from Subaru?
---
Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Poor <fredspoor2002@yahoo.com>
recommend checking on insurance rates before
building up your own engine---- had a friend that was
going to do this, and couldn't get insurance----- he
bought a VW from Great Plains---- "fred" do not
archive
--- Magnus Matthiasson <dofra@simnet.is> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Magnus
> Matthiasson" <dofra@simnet.is>
>
> Hello list.
>
> I was wondering if any of you building or flying the
> CH601
> are using the EJ-22 engine from Subaru?
> I ask this because I have one from a Legacy year
> 1990.
> I would like to know if any one has experience with
> it
> and what modifycations there has to be done before
> instaling
> it in the plane.
>
> Thanks
>
> Best regards
> Magnus Matthiasson,
> 601XL,Zen. #5034
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> latest messages.
> List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm
> Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: MJBTOL@aol.com
In a message dated 2/17/03 1:38:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Flydog1966@aol.com writes:
> So, its only called bar stock if its extruded? Is 3/16th always cut from a
>
> sheet?
3/16" is availiable in extruded barstock, and so is 1/8". Usualy up to 12"
wide.
Mike 601 HD #3756 building from
plans
Message 16
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
Hi List. I am currently making the bell cranks for
the 601 XL ailerons. The drawings call for a 1/4"
hole to be reamed to 6.5 mm after riveting. I can get
a reamer to do these 2 holes for $34 plus taxes.
Seems a bit steep. Anyone have any advice? Thanks
for any suggestions you send my way.
David
=====
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder
Currently making parts.
Stab and Rudder waiting for skins
Message 17
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| Subject: | Ammeter for a 912 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Leo Gates <leogates@ev1.net>
Having looked at the wiring diagrams in the Rotax Repair Manual and ZAC
Recommended Circuit Diagram I still am not sure where to place my
Ammeter. Lead "C" or the lead from "+B and R"? I couldn't find the
answer in the archives.
Thanks
Leo Gates
N601Z, CH601HDS - 90% done?
Message 18
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com
List:
I have a Garmin GPS 196 and am having a problem with the Weight and Balance
feature. The tenth digit does not change until you get all the way to the
next whole number. For example, If I have 14 pounds in the baggage
compartment at arm +55.1 I have a moment arm of 10274 with a weight of 932#
my CG is 10.97 but the GPS 196 gives me a CG of 10.0. If I add one pound to
the baggage I have a real CG of 11.02 and the GPS 196 reports it as 11.0.
If I increase the baggage weight to 36 pounds I have a real CG of 11.994 but
the GPS 196 is still showing it as 11.0.
I have sent two emails to Garmin but have not received a reply to either of
them. Since we have a forward CG the tenth digit is important information.
Any ideas on whether I have a properly functioning Weight and Balance
function or how to get in contact with someone at Garmin that might answer
their emails?
Stan
601HDS/Jabiru 3300
90 hours
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Removing soft copper rivets |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Winston Ellis <w1mdi@cox-internet.com>
Copper? Mine were aluminum and I have replaced misshapen ones by just filing away
one side. It doesn't take more than a few strokes of the file and once flush
with the skin the rest pops out. Doing a lot of them this way could get tedious
though. Good luck!
Winston Ellis
701/Suzuki
Ketchum, Idaho
"H. Robert Schoenberger" wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "H. Robert Schoenberger" <HRS4@prodigy.net>
>
> List . . . does anyone have any experience or ideas for removing all of the soft
copper rivets along the trailing edge of the 701 elevator so they can be replaced
and squeezed more neatly?
Message 20
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| Subject: | 701 flaps.. 30 degrees too much? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: TomLazear@netscape.net (John Lazear)
Hello Jon
I have been flying a 701 for 2 years in and out of a 800 foot grass strip a barn
at one end and high trees at the other. I can get in and out with or with out
flaps, but in a no wind condition full flaps steepen the approach and shorten
the ground roll. And since my strip is in the valley I have calm conditions
most of the time I land with full flaps 95% of the time.
It does take a alot of getting used to. With no power full flaps I hold 55 mph,
this gives you a steep nose down pitch which is un-nerving and the flair is critical,
because as soon as you flair your air speed drops fast.
When you first start using flaps keep 500 extra rpms in till your mains hit and
this makes the flair a little better.
I flew about 70 hours befour I started using flaps,then it was practice practice.
At about 120 hours I moved my batterie to the tail cone. This moved my empty
CG to the center of the loading range, and my loaded CG to the aft 1/3 at gross
I'm just inside the aft limet. For me this is where the plan flairs best,
the noes does not want to fall on to the run way.
Tom 701 912 UL 200 hrs
"Jon Croke" <Jon@joncroke.com> wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <Jon@joncroke.com>
>
>Looking for field experience:
>
>I have noticed that the new 701 plans only call for allowing 15 degrees of
>flaps--- the older plans have another position for up to 30 degrees.
>
>This would lead one to beleive that the 30 isnt being used or is
>undesirable.
>
>Can any of you comment on whether the 30 is practical or not --I need to
>know whether to include this position on the flap actuator. If it is a
>safety problem (accidently going to 30) then Id prefer not too include it.
>
>Thanks
>
>Jon
>
>www.joncroke.com
>
>
The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp
Message 21
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
I stand corrected. AFTER I sent my message I looked further into the AL
situation. Aluminum is rolled into sheets and plates, it is extruded into
shapes, and it is rolled into common sections. Aluminum rolled "BARS" are
available in 1\8" and 3\16" thickness. I checked two suppliers stock lists,
and bars of this thickness were not available in any width beyond 2". I
will take Mike's word that widths up to 12" are available, but I have not
seen them offered anywhere as a stock item.
I consulted "Machinery's Handbook" trying to determine at what thickness
"sheet" becomes "plate". They have a chart labeled "Aluminum sheet and
plate thickness tolerances" with thickness starting at .006" and ending at
6.00" with no distinction between sheet and plate. Another chart was
labeled "Tolerances of aluminum sawn from plate" thickness on this chart
begins at .250 and go up from there. I am paraphrasing the titles of the
charts as I am at home and the reference is at work. Since the reference to
plates begins at .250 thickness, I'm assuming any thickness of .250 and up
is "plate", anything less than .250 is sheet.
Also interesting is that when buying aluminum such as rounds or
rectangles, you must specify whether you want "extruded" (higher cost) or
"wrought" (rolled) as shapes are available made by both processes. The
extruded shapes have more precise tolerances.
Properly chagrined in Las Vegas,
Randy L. Thwing
--> Zenith-List message posted by: MJBTOL@aol.com
Flydog1966@aol.com writes:
> So, its only called bar stock if its extruded? Is 3/16th always cut from
a
>
> sheet?
3/16" is availiable in extruded barstock, and so is 1/8". Usualy up to 12"
wide.
Mike 601 HD #3756 building
from
plans
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: alum bar?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com
>
> So, its only called bar stock if its extruded? Is 3/16th always cut from
a
> sheet?
> I have a piece of 3/16x1 -1/2 x2feet, that shows no evidence of being
sawn
> /cut from a sheet. Do they put a smooth finish on the edges after cutting?
It
> even has several deep gouges running down its entire length on the 1-1/2
inch
> dimension, looks like there must have been some kind of .... well,shit,on
the
> rolls/(dies) I asked Airparts for a replacement and it was the
same,with
> its gouges matching perfectly with the first piece.
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