---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/05/03: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:20 AM - Re: 701 General questions (Carl Bertrand) 2. 12:50 PM - cutting extrusions (Carlos Sa) 3. 01:08 PM - Cutting Extrusions / Tools (Carlos Sa) 4. 01:16 PM - Re: Sebastian Heintz & ZAC bashing (Robert Rehmel) 5. 01:16 PM - Re: Sebastian Heintz & ZAC bashing (Robert Rehmel) 6. 01:36 PM - Re: Sebastian Heintz & ZAC bashing (Robert Rehmel) 7. 01:36 PM - Re: Sebastian Heintz & ZAC bashing (Robert Rehmel) 8. 01:52 PM - XL firewall angle (CLOJAN@aol.com) 9. 02:05 PM - Re: Cutting Extrusions / Tools (Don Honabach) 10. 02:12 PM - Cutting extrusions (Jim Ashford) 11. 02:29 PM - Re: Cutting extrusions (Carlos Sa) 12. 03:06 PM - Re: Cutting Extrusions / Tools (Monty Graves) 13. 03:10 PM - Re: Cutting Extrusions / Tools (tongaloa) 14. 03:42 PM - Re: Cutting Extrusions / Tools (Cy Galley) 15. 04:58 PM - Re: XL firewall angle (William Cribb) 16. 05:21 PM - Re: Holes / Access Panel Instrument Panel (Larry McFarland) 17. 05:31 PM - Re: Cutting Extrusions / Tools (Clyde D Ehlers) 18. 06:52 PM - Got My Plans - Now I Have Questions (Clifton J. Bardwell) 19. 06:53 PM - Re: Cutting Extrusions / Tools (Michel Therrien) 20. 06:57 PM - Build time (Michael Murphy) 21. 07:46 PM - Re: Build time (Randall Stout) 22. 08:00 PM - Re: Build time (Don Honabach) 23. 08:13 PM - Re: Build time (Ed Kramer) 24. 08:37 PM - Re: Cutting Extrusions / Tools (Eric Tauch) 25. 09:14 PM - Re: Got My Plans - Now I Have Questions (Ed Kramer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:20:26 AM PST US From: "Carl Bertrand" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 General questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Carl Bertrand" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walt Cannon" Subject: Zenith-List: 701 General questions > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Walt Cannon" > > Greetings all, > > I have a couple of general questions for you 701/912 and 912S owners: > > 1) Anyone concerned about not having carb heat? Do this engines need it > given that they are picking up warm air from inside the cowl? I was told by the owner of a flight school operating several Katanas with 912 engines over seven years that there is not one recorded incident of carb ice with the 912. I have operated mine ice free for 300 hrs without carb heat and two other friends have flown over 1100 hrs with the same setup/ results. I would like to hear from anyone who has experienced carb ice with the 912/914. I believe the resistence to carb ice is related to the design of the carbs (variable venturi) and not to the fact that most intallations use inside the cowl air. In my setup the air inside the cowl is only 10'C warmer. > > 2) Is anyone using the Rotax "tuned air box" on the 912S? Does it have > provisions for carb heat? I have not, but it does have provisions to add heat. > > 3) What size "amp-hours" and weight battery are you using for a good CG > location. Mounted behind the large access panel or way aft in the tailcone > like the latest drawings from ZAC show? 22 amp/hr, 14lbs. I had mine mounted in the tail untill I took the header tank out. It's now on the firewall. > > 4) Has anyone actually installed a 912S with the new "high torque" starter. > Did you take the ZAC precautions to insure it cleared the motor mount? Any > issues? A friend is in the process of upgrading to the "S". He had to get a new motor mount from Zenair to get crearance for the longer starter. > > 5) How about cabin heat? Anyone used the ZAC shroud? Does it work? Anyone > accomplish the heating with water and a heat exchanger? You can get all the heat you need from the main rad by adding ducting and valve and not have to worry about carbon monoxide. > All comments welcomed on or off the list. > Thanks, > Walt Cannon > Good luck Walt, Carl > > > UMIDS FROM ADDRESS: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:50:35 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Zenith-List: cutting extrusions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:25 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Zenith-List: Cutting Extrusions / Tools --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Hello, all I'm ready to trim the 1.5" x 1.5" extrusions down to 1.5" x 1.25". I was thinking of renting a band saw to do this, but the local rental store doesn't have any, and the closest one only has the industrial issue (7' tall), so I'd have to rent a truck. Thus, my alternative is to acquire a band saw [pitty me.. ;o) ] Keeping in ming the primary goal of trimming 6 pieces of extrusion 1/8" thick, each 8' long, do builders have any recommendations to offer? "Gotchas" to avoid? I'm looking at a Canadian Tire band saw. To take a look, go to HTTP://www.canadiantire.ca then enter 0556726P in the search box. Thanks in advance for any input Carlos CH601 HD - tailfeathers done! Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:16:34 PM PST US From: "Robert Rehmel" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sebastian Heintz & ZAC bashing --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Rehmel" I had not heard about Sebastian being ill. Hope everything works out for him. As to difficulties with the ZAC drawings I must admit I have been frustrated with the manual layout. I am building a 601HDS from a kit. I usually find that if I stop and read further ahead and layout the pieces it all makes since. Also when I have had questions the factory has been very responsive to my questions. My father and I have been building for two years and are now into the forward fuselage. > [Original Message] > From: Gary Liming > To: > Date: 12/24/2002 11:42:50 AM > Subject: Zenith-List: Sebastian Heintz & ZAC bashing > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming > > > I spoke with Nick today, and he told me that although Sebastian had > suffered a brain aneurysm, which can be very serious, his wasn't too severe > and is back today, just taking it easy. > > As for ZAC criticism, I can empathize with both sides. I know how hard it > is to do technical support well, especially to groups that have some > members with strong personalities (egos) like doctors and pilots. (How > would you like to be Nick day after day, given where their manuals and > drawings used to be?) Living about 1 hour drive away, I've visited the > plant many times, and they have always been as friendly and accommodating > folks as you could ask for. They are also very busy every time I've been > there, but not too busy to talk to me. > > On engine mounts, I had a problem with mine - the holes didn't match the > pre-drilled holes on the firewall, and although the manual tells you to be > very careful to keep those centered when you install the engine mount > brackets, you really need to wait to install those brackets until you can > line them up with the mount you have. When I reported the problem, they > had Zenair in Canada make me one that matched my holes. To be sure, a guy > from Zenair called me to verify the hole placement, and he was quite > nice. The new one fit fine, and is a little better than the old one. > > On the other hand, it is very frustrating when things do go wrong in a > project. There are many gaps in the manuals and drawings which could have > made things better, but nothing that hasn't come out ok in the end. There > have been times when I've questioned my choice, but heck, there have been > times when I've questioned my sanity as well. It really helps to get > plugged into some other builders for moral support during those times. You > don't have to live in a super active homebuilding area, either. I am > equally in contact with builders across town as well as Alaska, Wyoming, > Wisconsin, etc thanks to this medium. (Thanks guys!) > > Like any business, ZAC has to strike a balance between making a certain > level of profit, hiring enough staff to provide a certain level of support > and quality, and having some competitive pricing. Would you go for price > increases on your kits to cover a $60,000 plus benefits manual writer to be > brought on board? Perhaps some of us would, but that probably cuts out > some potential trying to keep down costs. Always tradeoffs. > > Anyway, I hope everyone on this list and at ZAC have a great holiday! > > Gary Liming > 801 > > > > > --- Robert Rehmel --- traveler601@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:16:41 PM PST US From: "Robert Rehmel" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sebastian Heintz & ZAC bashing --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Rehmel" I had not heard about Sebastian being ill. Hope everything works out for him. As to difficulties with the ZAC drawings I must admit I have been frustrated with the manual layout. I am building a 601HDS from a kit. I usually find that if I stop and read further ahead and layout the pieces it all makes since. Also when I have had questions the factory has been very responsive to my questions. One other point join the EAA or your local equivalent. They are great source of information. I have progress regularly inspected by our local advisor. My father and I have been building for two years and are now into the forward fuselage. > [Original Message] > From: Gary Liming > To: > Date: 12/24/2002 11:42:50 AM > Subject: Zenith-List: Sebastian Heintz & ZAC bashing > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming > > > I spoke with Nick today, and he told me that although Sebastian had > suffered a brain aneurysm, which can be very serious, his wasn't too severe > and is back today, just taking it easy. > > As for ZAC criticism, I can empathize with both sides. I know how hard it > is to do technical support well, especially to groups that have some > members with strong personalities (egos) like doctors and pilots. (How > would you like to be Nick day after day, given where their manuals and > drawings used to be?) Living about 1 hour drive away, I've visited the > plant many times, and they have always been as friendly and accommodating > folks as you could ask for. They are also very busy every time I've been > there, but not too busy to talk to me. > > On engine mounts, I had a problem with mine - the holes didn't match the > pre-drilled holes on the firewall, and although the manual tells you to be > very careful to keep those centered when you install the engine mount > brackets, you really need to wait to install those brackets until you can > line them up with the mount you have. When I reported the problem, they > had Zenair in Canada make me one that matched my holes. To be sure, a guy > from Zenair called me to verify the hole placement, and he was quite > nice. The new one fit fine, and is a little better than the old one. > > On the other hand, it is very frustrating when things do go wrong in a > project. There are many gaps in the manuals and drawings which could have > made things better, but nothing that hasn't come out ok in the end. There > have been times when I've questioned my choice, but heck, there have been > times when I've questioned my sanity as well. It really helps to get > plugged into some other builders for moral support during those times. You > don't have to live in a super active homebuilding area, either. I am > equally in contact with builders across town as well as Alaska, Wyoming, > Wisconsin, etc thanks to this medium. (Thanks guys!) > > Like any business, ZAC has to strike a balance between making a certain > level of profit, hiring enough staff to provide a certain level of support > and quality, and having some competitive pricing. Would you go for price > increases on your kits to cover a $60,000 plus benefits manual writer to be > brought on board? Perhaps some of us would, but that probably cuts out > some potential trying to keep down costs. Always tradeoffs. > > Anyway, I hope everyone on this list and at ZAC have a great holiday! > > Gary Liming > 801 > > > > > --- Robert Rehmel --- traveler601@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:36:49 PM PST US From: "Robert Rehmel" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sebastian Heintz & ZAC bashing --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Rehmel" I had not heard about Sebastian being ill. Hope everything works out for him. As to difficulties with the ZAC drawings I must admit I have been frustrated with the manual layout. I am building a 601HDS from a kit. I usually find that if I stop and read further ahead and layout the pieces it all makes since. Also when I have had questions the factory has been very responsive to my questions. My father and I have been building for two years and are now into the forward fuselage. > [Original Message] > From: Gary Liming > To: > Date: 12/24/2002 11:42:50 AM > Subject: Zenith-List: Sebastian Heintz & ZAC bashing > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming > > > I spoke with Nick today, and he told me that although Sebastian had > suffered a brain aneurysm, which can be very serious, his wasn't too severe > and is back today, just taking it easy. > > As for ZAC criticism, I can empathize with both sides. I know how hard it > is to do technical support well, especially to groups that have some > members with strong personalities (egos) like doctors and pilots. (How > would you like to be Nick day after day, given where their manuals and > drawings used to be?) Living about 1 hour drive away, I've visited the > plant many times, and they have always been as friendly and accommodating > folks as you could ask for. They are also very busy every time I've been > there, but not too busy to talk to me. > > On engine mounts, I had a problem with mine - the holes didn't match the > pre-drilled holes on the firewall, and although the manual tells you to be > very careful to keep those centered when you install the engine mount > brackets, you really need to wait to install those brackets until you can > line them up with the mount you have. When I reported the problem, they > had Zenair in Canada make me one that matched my holes. To be sure, a guy > from Zenair called me to verify the hole placement, and he was quite > nice. The new one fit fine, and is a little better than the old one. > > On the other hand, it is very frustrating when things do go wrong in a > project. There are many gaps in the manuals and drawings which could have > made things better, but nothing that hasn't come out ok in the end. There > have been times when I've questioned my choice, but heck, there have been > times when I've questioned my sanity as well. It really helps to get > plugged into some other builders for moral support during those times. You > don't have to live in a super active homebuilding area, either. I am > equally in contact with builders across town as well as Alaska, Wyoming, > Wisconsin, etc thanks to this medium. (Thanks guys!) > > Like any business, ZAC has to strike a balance between making a certain > level of profit, hiring enough staff to provide a certain level of support > and quality, and having some competitive pricing. Would you go for price > increases on your kits to cover a $60,000 plus benefits manual writer to be > brought on board? Perhaps some of us would, but that probably cuts out > some potential trying to keep down costs. Always tradeoffs. > > Anyway, I hope everyone on this list and at ZAC have a great holiday! > > Gary Liming > 801 > > > > > --- Robert Rehmel --- traveler601@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:36:49 PM PST US From: "Robert Rehmel" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sebastian Heintz & ZAC bashing --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Rehmel" I had not heard about Sebastian being ill. Hope everything works out for him. As to difficulties with the ZAC drawings I must admit I have been frustrated with the manual layout. I am building a 601HDS from a kit. I usually find that if I stop and read further ahead and layout the pieces it all makes since. Also when I have had questions the factory has been very responsive to my questions. One other point join the EAA or your local equivalent. They are great source of information. I have progress regularly inspected by our local advisor. My father and I have been building for two years and are now into the forward fuselage. > [Original Message] > From: Gary Liming > To: > Date: 12/24/2002 11:42:50 AM > Subject: Zenith-List: Sebastian Heintz & ZAC bashing > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming > > > I spoke with Nick today, and he told me that although Sebastian had > suffered a brain aneurysm, which can be very serious, his wasn't too severe > and is back today, just taking it easy. > > As for ZAC criticism, I can empathize with both sides. I know how hard it > is to do technical support well, especially to groups that have some > members with strong personalities (egos) like doctors and pilots. (How > would you like to be Nick day after day, given where their manuals and > drawings used to be?) Living about 1 hour drive away, I've visited the > plant many times, and they have always been as friendly and accommodating > folks as you could ask for. They are also very busy every time I've been > there, but not too busy to talk to me. > > On engine mounts, I had a problem with mine - the holes didn't match the > pre-drilled holes on the firewall, and although the manual tells you to be > very careful to keep those centered when you install the engine mount > brackets, you really need to wait to install those brackets until you can > line them up with the mount you have. When I reported the problem, they > had Zenair in Canada make me one that matched my holes. To be sure, a guy > from Zenair called me to verify the hole placement, and he was quite > nice. The new one fit fine, and is a little better than the old one. > > On the other hand, it is very frustrating when things do go wrong in a > project. There are many gaps in the manuals and drawings which could have > made things better, but nothing that hasn't come out ok in the end. There > have been times when I've questioned my choice, but heck, there have been > times when I've questioned my sanity as well. It really helps to get > plugged into some other builders for moral support during those times. You > don't have to live in a super active homebuilding area, either. I am > equally in contact with builders across town as well as Alaska, Wyoming, > Wisconsin, etc thanks to this medium. (Thanks guys!) > > Like any business, ZAC has to strike a balance between making a certain > level of profit, hiring enough staff to provide a certain level of support > and quality, and having some competitive pricing. Would you go for price > increases on your kits to cover a $60,000 plus benefits manual writer to be > brought on board? Perhaps some of us would, but that probably cuts out > some potential trying to keep down costs. Always tradeoffs. > > Anyway, I hope everyone on this list and at ZAC have a great holiday! > > Gary Liming > 801 > > > > > --- Robert Rehmel --- traveler601@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:52:35 PM PST US From: CLOJAN@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: XL firewall angle --> Zenith-List message posted by: CLOJAN@aol.com I have received fast answers to my questions with you fellow XL builders and I have another one that has stopped my progress until I have an answer. (I would like to continue on it this weekend). The Drawing 6-b-10 shows the firewall angle from the bottom floor at 80 deg. The latest revision in the instructions show a photo of a plywood template cut at 77 deg. Which is it? A 3deg difference could make a big difference at the end of the prop. The revision check list ( also downloaded in February) shows nothing about this change. Also, what kind of firewall insulation are you using and where did you get it? Thanks in advance. Jack Russell Clovis CA ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:05:51 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Cutting Extrusions / Tools From: "Don Honabach" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" Carlos- I wasted my money on two band saws and getting ready to buy the 3rd. The first two band saws where small $100 to $250(US) models and you aren't able to get enough tension on the blades nor operate a thick enough blade (1/2"+) to prevent the blade from deflecting while cutting most extrusions of 1/8" aluminum stock. I end up having to run the stock through at angle to get a straight cut and always laugh at the thought of doing precision cuts with it. Best I can do is to rough cut it and then sand to the line. There is a book you may want to look at called 'The Band saw Book' by Lonnie Bird. Available at amazon.com. It covers advice on choosing a band saw, tips for tuning it, and some projects, etc. One of the things that drives me nuts about the smaller band saws is the lack of blade/band choices (even from the place you purchase the unit from). Seem like the $500-$2000 models have much better blade/bands available. You may also want to consider making a jig and cutting the extrusion that way. For the smaller pieces of extrusion that I needed to trim down, I just used my miter saw and 2x4 support blocks. Took a bit to get everything secured and aligned, but the cut was quick. If you don't want to invest in more equipment, you could also take the pieces to a machine shop. Takes all the fun out of it, but it's always good to make friends with those that have the 'cool toys'. However, don't forgot that you'll need tools for your next homebuilt, so to ensure the next one is 'cheaper' it's best to get the tool purchases out of the way now :) Good Luck, Don Honabach Tempe, AZ - 601HDS -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Sa [mailto:carlosfsa@yahoo.com] Subject: Zenith-List: Cutting Extrusions / Tools --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Hello, all I'm ready to trim the 1.5" x 1.5" extrusions down to 1.5" x 1.25". I was thinking of renting a band saw to do this, but the local rental store doesn't have any, and the closest one only has the industrial issue (7' tall), so I'd have to rent a truck. Thus, my alternative is to acquire a band saw [pitty me.. ;o) ] Keeping in ming the primary goal of trimming 6 pieces of extrusion 1/8" thick, each 8' long, do builders have any recommendations to offer? "Gotchas" to avoid? I'm looking at a Canadian Tire band saw. To take a look, go to HTTP://www.canadiantire.ca then enter 0556726P in the search box. Thanks in advance for any input Carlos CH601 HD - tailfeathers done! Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:43 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Cutting extrusions From: Jim Ashford --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim Ashford Carlos, If you are talking about the extrusions that provide the guides for the main gear, they are more like 8 inches not 8 feet long. I cut mine with a hacksaw. Not a difficult job as the extrusions are fairly soft. Jim Ashford 601 HDS tri-150 hours ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:16 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cutting extrusions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Jim, I'm talking about the spar caps (e.g., 6V2-5)... Carlos > If you are talking about the extrusions that provide the guides for the main > gear, they are more like 8 inches not 8 feet long. I cut mine with a > hacksaw. Not a difficult job as the extrusions are fairly soft. > > Jim Ashford > 601 HDS tri-150 hours Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:53 PM PST US From: Monty Graves Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cutting Extrusions / Tools --> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves 1/8 inch thick alum 6061 angle can be ripped on a table saw fairly easily, fine tooth carbide teeth blade, good alignment of the rip fence. SLOW feed!!!!! Also need a zero clearance plate for the blade is helpful. I have ripped a lot of alum extrusions. eye and ear protection are a MUST. LOTS and LOTS of alum chips. The band saw will do it with less noise, but the table saw will give you a much more accurate cut. SLOW feed.. Hold downs, and push sticks are a must, kick back is a metal projectile. Monty At 04:07 PM 4/5/03 -0500, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > >Hello, all > > >I'm ready to trim the 1.5" x 1.5" extrusions down to 1.5" x 1.25". > >I was thinking of renting a band saw to do this, but the local rental store doesn't >have any, and the closest one only has the industrial issue (7' tall), so I'd have >to rent a truck. >Thus, my alternative is to acquire a band saw [pitty me.. ;o) ] >Keeping in ming the primary goal of trimming 6 pieces of extrusion 1/8" thick, each >8' long, do builders have any recommendations to offer? "Gotchas" to avoid? > >I'm looking at a Canadian Tire band saw. To take a look, go to >HTTP://www.canadiantire.ca >then enter 0556726P in the search box. > >Thanks in advance for any input > >Carlos >CH601 HD - tailfeathers done! > >Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:53 PM PST US From: tongaloa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cutting Extrusions / Tools --> Zenith-List message posted by: tongaloa Not familiar with that part because I've not started building :-) I've had good success cutting AL with router and carbide bit. Use a guide, climb cut, finish with a file. You may need 2 - 3 passes depending on router. You're only taking off 0.25 x 0.125 Anyone done this on that part? -bob Carlos Sa wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > Hello, all > > > I'm ready to trim the 1.5" x 1.5" extrusions down to 1.5" x 1.25". > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:42 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cutting Extrusions / Tools --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Why not use a carbide saw blade in a tablesaw. Wear safety glasses, use the fence, feed slowly and a little candle wax on the blade helps. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlos Sa" Subject: Zenith-List: Cutting Extrusions / Tools > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > Hello, all > > > I'm ready to trim the 1.5" x 1.5" extrusions down to 1.5" x 1.25". > > I was thinking of renting a band saw to do this, but the local rental store doesn't > have any, and the closest one only has the industrial issue (7' tall), so I'd have > to rent a truck. > Thus, my alternative is to acquire a band saw [pitty me.. ;o) ] > Keeping in ming the primary goal of trimming 6 pieces of extrusion 1/8" thick, each > 8' long, do builders have any recommendations to offer? "Gotchas" to avoid? > > I'm looking at a Canadian Tire band saw. To take a look, go to > HTTP://www.canadiantire.ca > then enter 0556726P in the search box. > > Thanks in advance for any input > > Carlos > CH601 HD - tailfeathers done! > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:35 PM PST US From: "William Cribb" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL firewall angle --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William Cribb" Jack wrote: > I have received fast answers to my questions with you fellow XL builders and > I have another one that has stopped my progress until I have an answer. (I > would like to continue on it this weekend). > The Drawing 6-b-10 shows the firewall angle from the bottom floor at 80 deg. > The latest revision in the instructions show a photo of a plywood template > cut at 77 deg. Which is it? A 3deg difference could make a big difference at > the end of the prop. The revision check list ( also downloaded in February) > shows nothing about this change. > > Also, what kind of firewall insulation are you using and where did you get > it? > Thanks in advance. > Jack Russell Clovis CA > Hello Jack, The quick answer to your question is that both angles are correct. You need to account for the 3 degree angle of the cockpit floor in relation to the table top. Another way of looking at this is; the angle between the table top and the cockpit is 3 degrees, the angle between the table top and firewall is 77 degrees. When you add the two together you get the referenced 80 degrees. Bill Cribb 601 XL N601WC (reserved) http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/wscribb/ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:30 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Holes / Access Panel Instrument Panel --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Don, I found that the forward top skin can be removable with the aid of about 100 Tinnerman-like U-type fasteners. The forward top skin extensions that reach down to the upper longerons become separate and underlap the forward top skin. These pieces would be hard to remove at the longeron line. The fasteners I used are the type that are made for 1/4" long AN525 truss head 6-32 screws. This is not a structural problem. Can't see how anyone could be without this area accessable. There's more on my web site journal and pictures were just about to be added when my hard drive quit. So it will be a few days. Hope this helps, Larry McFarland 601hds at www.macsmachine.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Honabach" Subject: Zenith-List: Holes / Access Panel Instrument Panel > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" > > Hey Guys, > > After trying to crawl under the instrument panel today, it's obvious > that unless I shrink in a major way, working under the panel in any real > way just isn't going to happen. > > Has any one installed access holes or similiar to provide access to the > instrument panel area? Any problems with doing so? Just seems like a > shame to have to de-rivet for any minor work or inspection. > > Thanks, > Don Honabach > Tempe, AZ - 601HDS ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:32 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cutting Extrusions / Tools From: Clyde D Ehlers --> Zenith-List message posted by: Clyde D Ehlers HI:Carlos I used a Carbide tip Radial saw it worker great and filed the edge to smooth the edge On Sat, 5 Apr 2003 16:07:49 -0500 (EST) Carlos Sa writes: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > Hello, all > > > I'm ready to trim the 1.5" x 1.5" extrusions down to 1.5" x 1.25". > > I was thinking of renting a band saw to do this, but the local > rental store doesn't > have any, and the closest one only has the industrial issue (7' > tall), so I'd have > to rent a truck. > Thus, my alternative is to acquire a band saw [pitty me.. ;o) ] > Keeping in ming the primary goal of trimming 6 pieces of extrusion > 1/8" thick, each > 8' long, do builders have any recommendations to offer? "Gotchas" to > avoid? > > I'm looking at a Canadian Tire band saw. To take a look, go to > HTTP://www.canadiantire.ca > then enter 0556726P in the search box. > > Thanks in advance for any input > > Carlos > CH601 HD - tailfeathers done! > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > > > > > > > > > Yours Truly, Clyde Ehlers ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:52 PM PST US From: "Clifton J. Bardwell" Subject: Zenith-List: Got My Plans - Now I Have Questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clifton J. Bardwell" Hi List, Well, the plans arrived last weekend. It took Zenith a bit longer than I thought, but the wait was ok. I've been looking over the plans and getting together a shopping list for the rudder (seems like the best place to start). I do have some questions though. 1. Each drawing has one or more sub-drawings. Each of these has a number inside of a circle, which I have come to understand is the "X" of 640-R-5-X. However next to each number circle is a triangle with a number in it. I've yet to figure out what this is. I looked in the spec book, but it's a bit confusing on this point. 2. Am I correct in presuming the dl (d-lambda) means overall width (before bending)? Does dl have any other meaning? 3. Is the Balance Mass made out of Aluminum, Steel, Lead or ??? 4. Can "CherryMax" rivets be used in place of the Avex rivets? Specifically A4 = CR3212-4-4 and A5 = CR3212-5-5. How about Cherry Q rivets? If not, does Zenith have a web page which I can order from them, or is there a website from another distributor of the Avex rivets? Well, I suppose that's enough questions for today. TIA Clif 0 hours and counting ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:07 PM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cutting Extrusions / Tools --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien A band saw is not great for this (imho), I used a table saw (i think its called). In fact, the guy where I buy my metal did it for me in his shop. There is a lot of filling needed afterwards. Michel --- Carlos Sa wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > > Hello, all > > > I'm ready to trim the 1.5" x 1.5" extrusions down to > 1.5" x 1.25". > > I was thinking of renting a band saw to do this, but > the local rental store doesn't > have any, and the closest one only has the > industrial issue (7' tall), so I'd have > to rent a truck. > Thus, my alternative is to acquire a band saw [pitty > me.. ;o) ] > Keeping in ming the primary goal of trimming 6 > pieces of extrusion 1/8" thick, each > 8' long, do builders have any recommendations to > offer? "Gotchas" to avoid? > > I'm looking at a Canadian Tire band saw. To take a > look, go to > HTTP://www.canadiantire.ca > then enter 0556726P in the search box. > > Thanks in advance for any input > > Carlos > CH601 HD - tailfeathers done! > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby http://tax.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:00 PM PST US From: Michael Murphy Subject: Zenith-List: Build time --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Murphy The ZAC site says that an XL can be built in about 400-600 hours. How much time have you spent on your Zenith. Please indicate the model and what options you have included. Thanks --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:02 PM PST US From: "Randall Stout" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Build time --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randall Stout" For a 601HD, 600 hours is very doable for the kit only. I'm at about 725 hours and nearly finished. My time not only includes the kit, but also assembling an engine, installing instruments, cowl, ect. I did not include all the time spent staring at the plans and scratching my head. I will admit that my hair is getting rather thin in places ;-) Randy Stout - San Antonio TX CH601HD N282RS r5t0ut@earthlink.net http://www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Murphy" Subject: Zenith-List: Build time > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Murphy > > > The ZAC site says that an XL can be built in about 400-600 hours. How much time have you spent on your Zenith. Please indicate the model and what options you have included. Thanks > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:57 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Build time From: "Don Honabach" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" Michael - I can't say for sure about the XL (I'm building a HDS), but in general all build times from ZAC will only hold true if you already have the base skills established. For example - I never took a shop class or built anything with wood, metal, etc. in my life. I've never been handy and had essentially a screw driver before I started this project. So in my case, even making a level table was a major task that took many weekends and trying different things. I stopped counting awhile back, but I'm sure I've put in 1000 to 1500 hours and still have another good 400 to go. If I was to build another one though, I could easily do it in the 400 to 600 hour range now that I know what's important and what's not. Another thing that amazes me is that when I started this project, it was very difficult for me to drill a straight line of holes and I ended up doing a lot of strange things to make this happen. I've just learned that I can get an almost perfect line of holes by just trusting my eyes and using a steady hand. Sometimes you end up wanting to over complicate things and until you have the experience of what works, you'll 'waste' a lot of time figuring it out. Also, keep in mind that build times are for the un-painted airframe only. Avionics, engine, plumbing, paint, etc. all go on top of this figure and will generally take just as long as the airframe (depending on your prior experience). With that said, one of the things that makes ZAC's kit planes quicker to build than some others is the use of Avex (i.e. special pop) rivets and limited fiberglass sanding/detail work. When you get ready to close up a section, it's quick an easy and no need to worry about how to access the back side for bucking bars, etc., and then still having to worry if the rivet was done right like you have to do with normal rivets. With that said, once you learn how to set normal rivets, it's probably relatively quick as well, but nothing is quick as setting a pop rivet. All in all, the airplane goes together quickly and is a project that can be completed by first time builders. Hope this helps... Don Honabach Tempe, AZ - 601HDS -----Original Message----- From: Michael Murphy [mailto:michaelmurphy2562@yahoo.com] Subject: Zenith-List: Build time --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Murphy --> The ZAC site says that an XL can be built in about 400-600 hours. How much time have you spent on your Zenith. Please indicate the model and what options you have included. Thanks --------------------------------- direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:08 PM PST US From: "Ed Kramer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Build time --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" Michael, I'm building a 701 from a kit. I completed the rudder & left wing in 221 hrs. (12 hrs.-rudder, 209 left wing). These hours included making a few parts for the right wing. I made a modification to make the fuel tank removable. I also added an access panel, nav & strobe lights and cleaned & primed all the mating surfaces. I counted every hour worked plus the time spent hovering over the plans, like a deer staring into headlights. I have 49.2 hrs.on the right wing which is better than half complete. As you can see once you overcome the fear of sheet metal and understand the way Zenith's plans are done, it gets faster & easier. Ed Kramer West Seneca, NY CH 701: rudder & left wing complete. edkramer@prodigy.net . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Murphy" Subject: Zenith-List: Build time > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Murphy > > > The ZAC site says that an XL can be built in about 400-600 hours. How much time have you spent on your Zenith. Please indicate the model and what options you have included. Thanks > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:54 PM PST US From: "Eric Tauch" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Cutting Extrusions / Tools --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Eric Tauch" I have been through a number of tools/bandsaws, and heres my summary. I originally got one of the vertical/horizontal bandsaws for "more power" (per newsgroup recommendations and dejanews ). These units are not for doing vertical sawing and are good for cutting pipe/bar stock and thats about it. Then I picked up a Ryobi 9" table top bandsaw, and eventually took it back. Very plasticky and vibrations. I finally got a Delta 9" benchtop bandsaw and love it. I did have to get a set of blades mail order from suffolk machinery (timberwolf blades). The US blades make a big difference. This saw is a fantastic buy for 99.00 and cuts through aluminum like a hot knife thru butter. I got a very fine blade for the AL cutting, and dress the cut up on the 3M scotchbrite wheel on my grinder. I put the bandsaw at maybe number 3 on my favorite "non-essential" tool list, just behind the scotchbite pad wheel/grinder, and the 1"x42"belt sander. It also comes in handy for cutting wood (different blade), and other cutting. Eric Tauch -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carlos Sa Subject: Zenith-List: Cutting Extrusions / Tools --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Hello, all I'm ready to trim the 1.5" x 1.5" extrusions down to 1.5" x 1.25". I was thinking of renting a band saw to do this, but the local rental store doesn't have any, and the closest one only has the industrial issue (7' tall), so I'd have to rent a truck. Thus, my alternative is to acquire a band saw [pitty me.. ;o) ] Keeping in ming the primary goal of trimming 6 pieces of extrusion 1/8" thick, each 8' long, do builders have any recommendations to offer? "Gotchas" to avoid? I'm looking at a Canadian Tire band saw. To take a look, go to HTTP://www.canadiantire.ca then enter 0556726P in the search box. Thanks in advance for any input Carlos CH601 HD - tailfeathers done! Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:02 PM PST US From: "Ed Kramer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Got My Plans - Now I Have Questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" Clif, "dl" is the developed length, total width including radius. Most of the plane is made from 6061 T-6 bare aluminum. About using cherrymax rivets- I'm one who likes to use what the designer says to use. After all, Chris designed & tested the airplane with Avex rivets, which can be ordered directly from ZAC. I think using cherrymax rivets would add weight, cost and could get a little frustrating because for different thicknesses of alumn. you would need a different length rivet. An Avex A-4 rivet has a grip range from 0-1/4" and A-5 from 0-5/16". Hope this helps. Ed Kramer West Seneca, NY CH 701: rudder & left wing complete edkramer@prodigy.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clifton J. Bardwell" Subject: Zenith-List: Got My Plans - Now I Have Questions > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clifton J. Bardwell" > > Hi List, > > > I do have some questions though. > 2. Am I correct in presuming the dl (d-lambda) means overall width > (before bending)? Does dl have any other meaning? > > 3. Is the Balance Mass made out of Aluminum, Steel, Lead or ??? > > 4. Can "CherryMax" rivets be used in place of the Avex rivets? > Specifically A4 = CR3212-4-4 and A5 = CR3212-5-5. How about Cherry Q > rivets? If not, does Zenith have a web page which I can order from > them, or is there a website from another distributor of the Avex rivets? > > Well, I suppose that's enough questions for today. > > TIA > Clif > 0 hours and counting > >