Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:04 AM - Sun N Fun 2003 (Bill Morelli)
2. 08:17 AM - Re: Got a good source of 4130N? (Garrou, Douglas)
3. 08:27 AM - Re: 640 (Garrou, Douglas)
4. 09:38 AM - Re: Angle of Attack indicators (Schallgren@aol.com)
5. 11:01 AM - Alternator from Stratus - EA81 (Don Honabach)
6. 11:35 AM - Bending Brake vs. Press Brake (daddybob)
7. 03:36 PM - 601XL/3300 Firewall Forward Kit (Weston & Judy Walker)
8. 04:59 PM - Rudder Spar (Joe Kerr)
9. 05:14 PM - Re: Angle of Attack indicators (Wayne Glasser)
10. 05:18 PM - Re: Rudder Spar (Michel Therrien)
11. 05:53 PM - Re: 601XL/3300 Firewall Forward Kit (Ron DeWees)
12. 05:57 PM - Re: Got a good source of 4130N? (Robert Hillebrand)
13. 07:26 PM - XL aileron outbd rib (Fred Poor)
14. 07:53 PM - Re: XL aileron outbd rib (Mark Stauffer)
Message 1
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Morelli <billvt@together.net>
I have posted some information and photos of our trip to Sun N Fun on my
web site (address below). Carol and I flew to Carlisle, PA and met up with
Jeff and Sandy Small. The two HDS's handled the trip well.
My HDS was loaded to gross weight (1300 lbs). The Stratus handled the trip
in stride. It now has 230 hours on it. Valve guides have never moved,
alternator has never failed and I have no cooling problems. I also have
both original Stratus ignitions and they too have been flawless. Also note
that my Whelan strobes have never failed and I have used them on every
flight for 230 hours. The cheap ZAC supplied tires now have 329 landings
and still have life remaining.
If anyone has any questions, let me know.
Regards,
Bill (N812BM - HDS - Tri - Stratus - Vermont - 230.6 flight hrs. - 329
landings, 1 ON ICE!!)
web site -> http://homepages.together.net/~billvt/
Message 2
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| Subject: | RE: Got a good source of 4130N? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
Goodness gracious! That's a "small" builders group?
You're building a 601 squadron!! :)
Your group definitely needs a web page. I'd be happy to host photos of your
progress if you aren't already web-able.
Good luck!
Doug Garrou
Project 801 www.garrou.com
Time: 05:59:09 AM PST US
From: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Got a good source of 4130N?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
Hi List. If any of you scratch builders out there
have found a good source of 4130N (preferably in
Canada since shipping over the border is expensive) I
would love to hear about it. I am looking to buy
enough for 3 - 601 XLs for the small builders group I
am a part of. Thanks for any information you can send
my way. Have a great day!
David
=====
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder
Currently making parts.
Stab and Rudder waiting for skins
Message 3
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
The 801 and the 640 are an interesting contrast. The 801 gives you load,
roominess, and fairly incredible short field performance, all at the expense
of fashion and speed. The 640 is quite a bit cooler looking, and faster,
and also is roomy, but is a much more "conventional" design with more
conventional takeoff/landing performance. It would probably be easier to
get first time passengers into a 640. :) Comparing them to certificated
designs might help:
If you would buy a Maule, Helio Courier, or STOL-kitted 172 - 801.
If you would buy a Warrior or Cherokee 180 - 640.
We went with the 801. The 640 didn't exist at the time, but I think we still
would have gone with the 801. We like flying low and slow, our cross
country destinations aren't far away, and we want to squeeze into some of
those Blue Ridge grass strips. And I confess that I just LOVE the way the
801 looks.
Good luck!
Doug Garrou
Project 801 www.garrou.com
Richmond, VA
-----Original Message-----
Time: 05:59:52 PM PST US
From: thomas hobbes <doublecheckvalve@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: 640
--> Zenith-List message posted by: thomas hobbes
<doublecheckvalve@yahoo.com>
anyone in the southeast building a 640?
what thoughts would people have comparing a 640
to an 801?
first time builder...
Tim
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Angle of Attack indicators |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com
Wayne:
I have over 3,000 hours in military fighters and in high-performance fighters
they are essential, especially for short-field and carrier landings.
Having said that I can reluctantly report that I made 5 carrier landings in a
SNJ without an airspeed indicator. The SNJ had about a 4(?) knot "buzz"
just above stall which was highly reliable. Flying just above the buzz
allowed very precise speed control and kept the LSO happy. Our 601 HDS has
a "buzz" that starts at 60 mph and it stalls at 54 mph. The Buzz/vibration
is so pronounced that one could not miss an impending stall. Since we have
a forward CG, but within limits, an AOA was not considered necessary when
building and so far that has been a good decision.
It may be that nearly 50 years of flying has dimmed my memory of the level of
expertise of a fledgling aviator. There is one brief moment on each landing
that I would like to have the "high chevron, donut and low chevron" in my
windscreen for an assist. That moment is the last 50 feet before touchdown
when, because of the nose high attitude, you have to judge your altitude out
both sides of the aircraft for the touchdown alert. During that time a
positive sign of a steady IAS would be nice to have.
Stan
601HDS/Jabiru 3300
96 hours
Message 5
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| Subject: | Alternator from Stratus - EA81 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" <don@pcperfect.com>
For those of your using the alternator supplied from Stratus for your
Subaru EA81 it appears that the wiring diagram may be wrong or at least
not work in all cases.
I recently had a problem where my 'idiot light' wouldn't go out after
starting the engine. After getting some help/suggestions from Mykal at
Stratus I moved the Exciter wire (labeled as IG in the circuit diagram)
from the + side of starter switch circuit to the + side of the Ignition
circuit. The wiring diagram I was sent shows the Exciter/IG wire being
tied directly to the + side of the starter switch circuit which
according to Mykal may not provide power long enough to 'excite' the
alternator.
Also, here's his direct reply that may help as well:
>>>
The big wire at the top goes to the battery.in the plug hole (and) the
three pins the single one is not used.
If you look at the two side by side the one marked L on the left is the
neg wire for the led lite.the one on the
right is the ign. for ignition or 12 volts with the key on. if that wire
comes from the solynoid starter wire a
problem occures if the eng. starts right up the alternater does not
have voltage long enough to excite and
start charging. so it needs to come from a costant 12v source.
>>>
Regards,
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ - 601HDS
Message 6
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| Subject: | Bending Brake vs. Press Brake |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: daddybob <daddybob52954@yahoo.com>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clifton J.
> Bardwell" <clif@duck.org>
> Bending Brake vs. Press Brake
> Just wondering...
>
> Is one better to use over the other? Or are they
> pretty much used for
> different types of bends completely?
>
> It seems to me that a press brake would produce a
> more accurate long
> bend.
Accuracy has more to do with the quality of the
machinery and how it is set up than having to do with
either type of brake.
They are used for different purposes, but their uses
overlap. Some bends or combination of bends are fairly
exclusive to one or the other.
Press brakes have dies- one male, usually on top and
pressing down, the other female, usually on bottom and
receiving the metal in a groove. The edges of the
groove often leave scratches in the metal. You may
need to cushion those edges with tape. I've seen
rubber dies but they are quite expensive.
You can make a small press brake for small pieces with
any small hydraulic press.
Bending brakes remain the most common and generally
least expensive in light sheetmetal work, except for
the big power brakes. Some of the power brakes are
capable of making radius curves by shooting out the
metal in 1/32" increments and bending it in very small
angles per bend. I've made round aluminum column
covers this way. I've often wondered how it would do
for the leading edge of an airfoil. Chances are one of
these machines is within driving distance for you. My
brother has one near Charlotte.
When bending aluminum in a bending brake, it is
important to maintain a "T2" radius (thickness X 2 R) to prevent cracking of the
aluminum on the outside
of the bend. this is done by moving the "Beam" or
"nose" back from the "apron" or "leaf" by a distance
of at least twice the aluminum thickness. You do not
want to depend on the average sheetmetal worker to
even know what you're talking about, let alone do it.
You need to watch to make sure it's done that way if
you hire this out.
Daddybob
http://tax.yahoo.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | 601XL/3300 Firewall Forward Kit |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston & Judy Walker" <westonjudy@earthlink.net>
I am about to purchase a Jabiru 3300 and a firewall forward kit for my
601XL. I just discovered the firewall forward kit that ZAC sells is
different from the one Pete sells at Jabiru USA Flight Center.
According to Pete, here are the main differences:
1. Prop. ZAC uses Sensenich. Pete supplies GT and claims better speed
and climb, better fuel efficiency with GT.
2. Location of oil cooler. ZAC on the side. Jabiru lower center in
front of vent; claims better cooling.
3. Cowls. ZAC made by Skyshop, fit on inside of front skins; Jabiru
from Jabiru in Australia, fit on outside of front skins.
4. Carb heat. ZAC=92s filter is bypassed when carb heat supplied; Jabiru
filters air either way.
Does anyone have any good/bad experience with either of these Firewall
Forward kits? Any other pointers?
Thanks for your thoughts.
Weston Walker
Message 8
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe Kerr" <jkerr@pcweb.net>
Greetings-
Here's my first question to the list after lurking for a year. I just received
my 601XL plans and am evaluating scratch building vs kit purchase vs a combination
of the two.
Perhaps a newbie question, but I can not find the answer in the archives and it
did not come to me after studying the plans for a couple days. On vertical tail
spar 6T4-4, the plans say the bottom side is bent 5.5 degrees open, but the
double angle 6T5-5 which fits inside the spar looks bent in the direction I
would call 'closed' by 5.5 degrees (resulting in the 84.5 degree bend indicated).
I hate to start thinking the plans are wrong when I am so new at this, so
I thought I'd ask. Should the plans say 5.5 degrees closed for the spar bend
rather than open? It seems the doubler would then fit inside.
Part two of the question. The plans call for the bend at the top of 6T4-4 to be
3.5 degrees closed. If this is the case, does this mean the bend angle of the
side would gradually open two degrees starting at the point where the spar
doubler ends (approx 900 mm from the bottom of the spar). Of course, if the plans
said the top angle should be 5.5 degrees closed rather than 3.5, and the
5.5 degree open bend at the bottom should really be 5.5 degree closed, then it
would be a consistent bend angle from top to bottom. So, either the plans are
wrong in two places in the first place I looked at closely, or I'm really missing
something basic and definitely need the kit with preformed parts. Thanks
for any help.
Joseph Kerr
Reno, NV
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Angle of Attack indicators |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Wayne Glasser" <ku-tec@bigpond.net.au>
Stan
Thanks for your input.
When my a/c is complete I can see it being used to introduce prospective
pilots to the joys of flight and therefore want to make it as painless as
possible.
Unfortunately 'sensory overload' prevents low time pilots from 'feeling'
what their a/c is trying to tell them so what to an experienced pilot may be
major feedback becomes just part of the background noise for a novice.
Another area where I see the AOA indicator being useful is for steep turns.
When I learnt to fly I remember trying to do the sums in my head - we are
at a 60deg bank so the stall speed increases by ........ In time it becomes
just another part of the experienced pilots 'feel' but initially it is
another thing to put someone off.
I have seen sensory overload, where the brain receives too much information
for it to process, cause panic in junior pilots that gave them such the
biggest scare in their lives they gave up for good.
As a side note I was just wondering how your 3300 is performing, it is the
engine of my choice when I get that far.
Wayne Glasser
Sydney - Australia
601XL 5075
----- Original Message -----
From: <Schallgren@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Angle of Attack indicators
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com
>
> Wayne:
>
> I have over 3,000 hours in military fighters and in high-performance
fighters
> they are essential, especially for short-field and carrier landings.
>
> Having said that I can reluctantly report that I made 5 carrier landings
in a
> SNJ without an airspeed indicator. The SNJ had about a 4(?) knot "buzz"
> just above stall which was highly reliable. Flying just above the buzz
> allowed very precise speed control and kept the LSO happy. Our 601 HDS
has
> a "buzz" that starts at 60 mph and it stalls at 54 mph. The
Buzz/vibration
> is so pronounced that one could not miss an impending stall. Since we
have
> a forward CG, but within limits, an AOA was not considered necessary when
> building and so far that has been a good decision.
>
> It may be that nearly 50 years of flying has dimmed my memory of the level
of
> expertise of a fledgling aviator. There is one brief moment on each
landing
> that I would like to have the "high chevron, donut and low chevron" in my
> windscreen for an assist. That moment is the last 50 feet before
touchdown
> when, because of the nose high attitude, you have to judge your altitude
out
> both sides of the aircraft for the touchdown alert. During that time a
> positive sign of a steady IAS would be nice to have.
>
> Stan
> 601HDS/Jabiru 3300
> 96 hours
>
>
Message 10
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
I'm building the HD which has the same specifications
as you mentioned except that my plans do not qualify
"open" or "closed". It just states the angles. Top
is 3.25 degrees bend inward (closed I suppose) and
bottom is 5 degrees.
A "good" bending brake will bend a constant angle
throughout the lenght. I have a not so good one (not
strong enough) that can probably achieve this bend
with no sweat (it the straight ones that create a
problem!! :-)
When I made that part, I remember spending time
readjusting the bend angle manually from top to bottom
of the spar.
The rudder is the first piece we assemble, but it is
not the simplest one when you think of it (at least
for a HD builder). Its ribs are more difficult to
make than all the wing ribs. The spar necessitate
also more work (relatively speaking as the main spar
is a LOT of work!-- let's compare it to the rear Z of
the wings or the stabilizer spars).
So, if you can make the rudder from scratch, you know
you can go quite far into the project from these
skills.
Michel
--- Joe Kerr <jkerr@pcweb.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe Kerr"
> <jkerr@pcweb.net>
>
> Greetings-
> Here's my first question to the list after lurking
> for a year. I just received my 601XL plans and am
> evaluating scratch building vs kit purchase vs a
> combination of the two.
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://tax.yahoo.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL/3300 Firewall Forward Kit |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Hi Weston,
I have the early Jabiru FWF kit for the Jab 3300 and can say that the
fiberglass work is excellent. As far as I know most cowls are on the
outside of the skins and work well that way. I understand they are easier
to install and remove. Don't know how the rest of the components compare
tho. Seems like Jab should know what works best with their motors. How do
the prices compare?
Ron DeWees
601HDS Jab 3300 in progress
Atlanta, Ga
----- Original Message -----
From: "Weston & Judy Walker" <westonjudy@earthlink.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL/3300 Firewall Forward Kit
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston & Judy Walker"
<westonjudy@earthlink.net>
>
> I am about to purchase a Jabiru 3300 and a firewall forward kit for my
> 601XL. I just discovered the firewall forward kit that ZAC sells is
> different from the one Pete sells at Jabiru USA Flight Center.
> According to Pete, here are the main differences:
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Got a good source of 4130N? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Robert Hillebrand <masterbogun@yahoo.com>
Hello from St.Jacob Ill USAI have been doing business with a company for about
15 years. The name is Shipiro Metals they are in St.Louis. If you ask for Stanley
and tell him you are a friend of Bo Hillebrand from the Zoo he might just
give you a good price on that amount of material.Phone number is 314-362-7000Don't
forget to ask for Stan he is the owner. Don't waste your time with anyone
else cause they don't have the authority to cut prices..........Good luck and
keep in touch
David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com> wrote:--> Zenith-List message posted by: David
Barth
Hi List. If any of you scratch builders out there
have found a good source of 4130N (preferably in
Canada since shipping over the border is expensive) I
would love to hear about it. I am looking to buy
enough for 3 - 601 XLs for the small builders group I
am a part of. Thanks for any information you can send
my way. Have a great day!
David
=====
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder
Currently making parts.
Stab and Rudder waiting for skins
http://tax.yahoo.com
---------------------------------
Message 13
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| Subject: | XL aileron outbd rib |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Poor <fredspoor2002@yahoo.com>
I noticed a short time ago-- that some of you folks
said, " the XL aileron outbd rib does not fit as per
plans ( or kit supplied)--- and so you "trimmed your
aileron SKIN to fit the rib----- I am scratch building
and found that my rib didn't fit when made as per
plans----- I made a " NEW OUTBD RIB" to fit the
aileron--- when attached to the wing, the outbd end of
the the aileron lined up "great"..
QUESTION: If you guys trimmed the aileron skin--
Do you think (or know) if you ailerons will match the
wing when the wing tip is trimmed as per plans ?????
"Fred" do not archive
http://tax.yahoo.com
Message 14
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| Subject: | XL aileron outbd rib |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mark Stauffer <mark.stauffer@comcast.net>
Fred and others,
Nick sent me a new drawing that was much clearer (and a bit different) as
far as measurements go. What little that I had to now trim was on the bottom
of the skin. I talked about this problem with Sebastian at SnF and he
pointed out the line along the wing tip to the aileron was not a straight
flat line and that it wouldn't be noticed. He illustrated this point on the
XL on display.
When I did trim it was only about 2mm and was done more make a nice
transition from rib to skin.
Unfortunately my first skin is too far gone to save.
Mark
601XL - N996XL (reserved)
SN-4999
installing trim tab in aileron.
Mark A. Stauffer
mark.stauffer@comcast.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Poor
Subject: Zenith-List: XL aileron outbd rib
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Poor <fredspoor2002@yahoo.com>
I noticed a short time ago-- that some of you folks
said, " the XL aileron outbd rib does not fit as per
plans ( or kit supplied)--- and so you "trimmed your
aileron SKIN to fit the rib----- I am scratch building
and found that my rib didn't fit when made as per
plans----- I made a " NEW OUTBD RIB" to fit the
aileron--- when attached to the wing, the outbd end of
the the aileron lined up "great"..
QUESTION: If you guys trimmed the aileron skin--
Do you think (or know) if you ailerons will match the
wing when the wing tip is trimmed as per plans ?????
"Fred" do not archive
http://tax.yahoo.com
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