---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/15/03: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:08 AM - Re: EA 81 problems (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 2. 08:46 AM - inconsistency in CH601 HD plans, page 6V2 (Carlos Sa) 3. 09:22 AM - Re: EA 81 problems (Don Honabach) 4. 09:50 AM - Re: EA 81 problems (Pinneo, George) 5. 11:43 AM - Re: EA 81 problems (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 6. 02:12 PM - Re: EA 81 problems (Don Honabach) 7. 02:50 PM - CH-801 POH (Carlson, Dale) 8. 02:59 PM - Re: EA 81 problems (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 9. 04:59 PM - Re: EA 81 problems (prm@softhome.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:43 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EA 81 problems --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Hi guys... I have a Stratus EA81 and a few problems.I never had an EGT before but I fitted one in each exhaust pipe because Stratus informed me that they saw signs of high cyl temps. Not exactly sure what these signs were but they thought that the motor had been "overheating". Anyway, as the water temps had never been over 220F I thought it good insurance to see what the EGT was doing. After that I had a very nice big valve job done by Ram performance...lovely properly stepped valve guides.all good stuff. So I asked Ron at Ram what the EGT's should be?...He recommended a maximum of 1250F...okey dokey...so I fit the EGT and calibrate them with a handheld EGT from work in an adjacent hole in the ex pipe. All very nice and the first thing the EGTs show is a 200F delta between the banks. I found the needle positions different in the BING altitude compensating carbs. I lift the lowest needle and the banks now read the same throughout the rev range. So life is good except that during taxi tests on our 6000ft runway I get full power EGT's of 1450F and cruise settings of 1400. I.e higher than Ron's 1250F suggested max. I decide to do a plug chop, raise rpm on the brakes to 3000rpm (engine) and cut the igniton...all I got a was sooty plugs, as if the mixture was VERY rich....I don't think it runs this rich,more like something in the way the engine takes a last gulp of fuel that gets partially burnt...besides i still have very high EGT's which would presumably mean a weak mixture! Ron suggested raising both the needles to get more fuel to cool the mixture.Now my cruise is about 4400RPM and I would think the main jet would have more authority at this engine speed than the needle. But a needle height change I CAN DO RIGHT AWAY. so I do this and taxi out to the runway....sure enough no change in the full power EGT's (flys pretty good without the cowling) 'cos the main jet is the same. So I try a few runs at cruise setting about 44 to 4500 rpm. Well the EGTs settle out to 1400F still way higher than 1250F maximum and makes me nervous because of the so called "EVIDENCE OF OVERHEATING" that Stratus told me about. The only difference is the motor was using quite a bit more fuel, about 5.5GPM compared to the 5.0 GPM it used to use. I taxi back to the hangar, pull the plugs and once again they are sooty but on one of them it was completly white underneath the soot. Now the plugs are brand new and this engine has run for less than one hour so I'm not sure plug color is a good indication of what the mixture should be for such a short stop start regime of testing...particularly if they soot up anyway when you kill the ignition. So I'm a little stumped as to what to do next? The whole premice here is that 1450F is too high, is this true from everyone elses experience? How am I supposed to get the mixture set correctly with these carbs in the first place.I always used to do this by doing plug chops on old motorclycles, but this engine seems to just soot the plugs? if it really is running way to rich, why the high EGT's? I have a hard time believing a big valve job will make a big difference in the mixture? Seems to me there must be a way to set the mixture correctly and get resaonable EGT readings. I'm pretty sure the ignition timing is close to where it should be. Any comments most gratefully received. Frank ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:31 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Zenith-List: inconsistency in CH601 HD plans, page 6V2 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Hello, all For the record, a couple of answers from ZAC, one of them involving an error in the CH601 HD plans, 4th edition: ................................................................. "Zenith Aircraft Company" 2003/04/15 09:55 Subject: Re: inconsistency in CH601 plans, page 6V2 > I believe I found a small error in the (computer drawn) plans, 4th > Edition 04/01. I have plans for a CH601-HD, serial 6-3066. > > If the spar tip 6V2-3 is cut as shown, the angle between the tip > edge will not be at 50 degrees with the vertical. > > The problem seems to be the horizontal, bottom, measurement of 270 > mm. If the measure is applied at the bend line, as in the old, hand > drafted plans, then the edge will be at 50 degrees. > > Could you please confirm the correct way of measuring 6V2-3: 270 mm > at the bottom edge or at the bend line? Thanks for pointing this out. Holding the 615 along the top, the dl=305 and the 50 degrees from vertical as true, then the distance across the bottom is 252mm (instead of 270 shown on the 4th edition). Note: 270 is a horizontal distance 290mm from the top edge > Also, I'd like to confirm that the position of the lightening holes > is measured from the edges of the (flat) part (as shown in 4th > edition plans), and not from the bend line. Correct, the 118 and 152 are measured down from the top edge (615mm side) > Finally, if I build wings with the baggage lockers, must I make > lightening holes in the ribs at stations 130 and 650? If you leave out the lightening holes, you may want to add vertical stiffeners, ref bottom right diagram on 6-V-6 Nick Heintz Zenith Aircraft Company support@zenithair.com http://www.zenithair.com Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EA 81 problems From: "Don Honabach" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" Frank, Not much of an engine person and haven't got my plane in the air yet, but you may want to take a look at www.bingcarburetor.com. They have a tuning and parts manual for the CV Bing Carb (which is what Stratus uses on the EA81), and you can also buy any of the needed parts for later overhaul, etc. for your bing carbs. In the tuning/parts manual it talks about a colortune spark plug that allows you to see the flame color of each cyclinder and adjust the carbs for the proper mixture. They also have information on carb synchronizers which may also help. Hope this helps and please let us know what you find. Regards, Don Honabach Tempe, AZ - 601HDS -----Original Message----- From: HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1) [mailto:frank.hinde@hp.com] Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EA 81 problems --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" --> Hi guys... I have a Stratus EA81 and a few problems.I never had an EGT before but I fitted one in each exhaust pipe because Stratus informed me that they saw signs of high cyl temps. Not exactly sure what these signs were but they thought that the motor had been "overheating". Anyway, as the water temps had never been over 220F I thought it good insurance to see what the EGT was doing. After that I had a very nice big valve job done by Ram performance...lovely properly stepped valve guides.all good stuff. So I asked Ron at Ram what the EGT's should be?...He recommended a maximum of 1250F...okey dokey...so I fit the EGT and calibrate them with a handheld EGT from work in an adjacent hole in the ex pipe. All very nice and the first thing the EGTs show is a 200F delta between the banks. I found the needle positions different in the BING altitude compensating carbs. I lift the lowest needle and the banks now read the same throughout the rev range. So life is good except that during taxi tests on our 6000ft runway I get full power EGT's of 1450F and cruise settings of 1400. I.e higher than Ron's 1250F suggested max. I decide to do a plug chop, raise rpm on the brakes to 3000rpm (engine) and cut the igniton...all I got a was sooty plugs, as if the mixture was VERY rich....I don't think it runs this rich,more like something in the way the engine takes a last gulp of fuel that gets partially burnt...besides i still have very high EGT's which would presumably mean a weak mixture! Ron suggested raising both the needles to get more fuel to cool the mixture.Now my cruise is about 4400RPM and I would think the main jet would have more authority at this engine speed than the needle. But a needle height change I CAN DO RIGHT AWAY. so I do this and taxi out to the runway....sure enough no change in the full power EGT's (flys pretty good without the cowling) 'cos the main jet is the same. So I try a few runs at cruise setting about 44 to 4500 rpm. Well the EGTs settle out to 1400F still way higher than 1250F maximum and makes me nervous because of the so called "EVIDENCE OF OVERHEATING" that Stratus told me about. The only difference is the motor was using quite a bit more fuel, about 5.5GPM compared to the 5.0 GPM it used to use. I taxi back to the hangar, pull the plugs and once again they are sooty but on one of them it was completly white underneath the soot. Now the plugs are brand new and this engine has run for less than one hour so I'm not sure plug color is a good indication of what the mixture should be for such a short stop start regime of testing...particularly if they soot up anyway when you kill the ignition. So I'm a little stumped as to what to do next? The whole premice here is that 1450F is too high, is this true from everyone elses experience? How am I supposed to get the mixture set correctly with these carbs in the first place.I always used to do this by doing plug chops on old motorclycles, but this engine seems to just soot the plugs? if it really is running way to rich, why the high EGT's? I have a hard time believing a big valve job will make a big difference in the mixture? Seems to me there must be a way to set the mixture correctly and get resaonable EGT readings. I'm pretty sure the ignition timing is close to where it should be. Any comments most gratefully received. Frank direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:56 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EA 81 problems From: "Pinneo, George" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pinneo, George" EGT is very position sensitive, at least in a Rotax 912. An inch up or downstream from the port might be 200 degrees F. Rotax has a recommended distance from a position inside the head. This is not easy to measure. Ask Stratus WHERE the thermocouple should be located. GGP ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:43:43 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EA 81 problems --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Thanks George, Ron suggested aposition of 6" away from the manifold. My EGT probes are two inches closer but my calibrated probe was stuck in the exhaust at 6" where it showed the EGT probes to be remarkably accurate. Stratus do not recommend EGT's. Its almost as if the EGT's have begged more questions than answers.... Frank -----Original Message----- From: Pinneo, George [mailto:George.Pinneo@trw.com] Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EA 81 problems --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pinneo, George" --> EGT is very position sensitive, at least in a Rotax 912. An inch up or downstream from the port might be 200 degrees F. Rotax has a recommended distance from a position inside the head. This is not easy to measure. Ask Stratus WHERE the thermocouple should be located. GGP advertising on the Matronics Forums. Share: Share photos & files with other List members. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:46 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EA 81 problems From: "Don Honabach" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" Frank, Why did Stratus think that your engine was running too hot? Also, if anyone with a Subaru EA81 could let us know what values they are getting that may also be helpful. Regards, Don -----Original Message----- From: HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1) [mailto:frank.hinde@hp.com] Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EA 81 problems --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" --> Thanks George, Ron suggested aposition of 6" away from the manifold. My EGT probes are two inches closer but my calibrated probe was stuck in the exhaust at 6" where it showed the EGT probes to be remarkably accurate. Stratus do not recommend EGT's. Its almost as if the EGT's have begged more questions than answers.... Frank -----Original Message----- From: Pinneo, George [mailto:George.Pinneo@trw.com] Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EA 81 problems --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pinneo, George" --> EGT is very position sensitive, at least in a Rotax 912. An inch up or downstream from the port might be 200 degrees F. Rotax has a recommended distance from a position inside the head. This is not easy to measure. Ask Stratus WHERE the thermocouple should be located. GGP advertising on the Matronics Forums. Share: Share photos & files with other List members. direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:50:32 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: CH-801 POH From: "Carlson, Dale" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Carlson, Dale" I wonder if anyone had put together a pilot operating handbook (POH) for the 801. Zenith does not seem inclined to offer anything in this area. It would be helpful if a consistent, accurate manual were available out there in a "word" form. I am planning on starting one but don't want to rebuild the wheel if it already exists. Dale Carlson N128DC ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:59:28 PM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EA 81 problems --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Well I had a valve guide failure...the new phos bronze circlipped type. When they got the heads they said they saw cupping in the valve seats and it looked generally worn out, even though it had just over 100 hours on it. Frank -----Original Message----- From: Don Honabach [mailto:don@pcperfect.com] Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EA 81 problems --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" Frank, Why did Stratus think that your engine was running too hot? Also, if anyone with a Subaru EA81 could let us know what values they are getting that may also be helpful. Regards, Don -----Original Message----- From: HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1) [mailto:frank.hinde@hp.com] Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EA 81 problems --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" --> Thanks George, Ron suggested aposition of 6" away from the manifold. My EGT probes are two inches closer but my calibrated probe was stuck in the exhaust at 6" where it showed the EGT probes to be remarkably accurate. Stratus do not recommend EGT's. Its almost as if the EGT's have begged more questions than answers.... Frank -----Original Message----- From: Pinneo, George [mailto:George.Pinneo@trw.com] Subject: RE: Zenith-List: EA 81 problems --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pinneo, George" --> EGT is very position sensitive, at least in a Rotax 912. An inch up or downstream from the port might be 200 degrees F. Rotax has a recommended distance from a position inside the head. This is not easy to measure. Ask Stratus WHERE the thermocouple should be located. GGP advertising on the Matronics Forums. Share: Share photos & files with other List members. direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. advertising on the Matronics Forums. Share: Share photos & files with other List members. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:17 PM PST US From: prm@softhome.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EA 81 problems --> Zenith-List message posted by: prm@softhome.net I concurr with others discussing this: Identifying the most appropriate position for the EGT probe is difficult unless the manufacturer specifically shows where. Your EGT measures might be spurious without this. If in doubt, I believe the accepted view is to read the plugs. There can be no argument with a fouled or white plug. From what you've indicated it seems your engine is running rich and the claim that it ever ran hot may be spurious too. With sooty plugs its difficult to see how your EGTs could be this high. Whatever past probs your engine has experienced may have nothing to do with EGT. Just .02. Perry Morrison DO NOT ARCHIVE HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1) writes: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > > Hi guys... > > I have a Stratus EA81 and a few problems.I never had an EGT before > but I fitted one in each exhaust pipe because Stratus informed me > that they saw signs of high cyl temps. Not exactly sure what these > signs were but they thought that the motor had been "overheating". > Anyway, as the water temps had never been over 220F I thought it > good insurance to see what the EGT was doing. > > After that I had a very nice big valve job done by Ram > performance...lovely properly stepped valve guides.all good stuff. > > So I asked Ron at Ram what the EGT's should be?...He recommended a > maximum of 1250F...okey dokey...so I fit the EGT and calibrate them > with a handheld EGT from work in an adjacent hole in the ex pipe. > > All very nice and the first thing the EGTs show is a 200F delta > between the banks. I found the needle positions different in the > BING altitude compensating carbs. I lift the lowest needle and the > banks now read the same throughout the rev range. So life is good > except that during taxi tests on our 6000ft runway I get full power > EGT's of 1450F and cruise settings of 1400. I.e higher than Ron's > 1250F suggested max. > > I decide to do a plug chop, raise rpm on the brakes to 3000rpm > (engine) and cut the igniton...all I got a was sooty plugs, as if > the mixture was VERY rich....I don't think it runs this rich,more > like something in the way the engine takes a last gulp of fuel that > gets partially burnt...besides i still have very high EGT's which > would presumably mean a weak mixture! > > Ron suggested raising both the needles to get more fuel to cool the > mixture.Now my cruise is about 4400RPM and I would think the main > jet would have more authority at this engine speed than the needle. > But a needle height change I CAN DO RIGHT AWAY. > > so I do this and taxi out to the runway....sure enough no change in > the full power EGT's (flys pretty good without the cowling) 'cos the > main jet is the same. > > So I try a few runs at cruise setting about 44 to 4500 rpm. Well the > EGTs settle out to 1400F still way higher than 1250F maximum and > makes me nervous because of the so called "EVIDENCE OF OVERHEATING" > that Stratus told me about. The only difference is the motor was > using quite a bit more fuel, about 5.5GPM compared to the 5.0 GPM it > used to use. > > I taxi back to the hangar, pull the plugs and once again they are > sooty but on one of them it was completly white underneath the soot. > > Now the plugs are brand new and this engine has run for less than > one hour so I'm not sure plug color is a good indication of what the > mixture should be for such a short stop start regime of > testing...particularly if they soot up anyway when you kill the > ignition. > > So I'm a little stumped as to what to do next? The whole premice > here is that 1450F is too high, is this true from everyone elses > experience? > > How am I supposed to get the mixture set correctly with these carbs > in the first place.I always used to do this by doing plug chops on > old motorclycles, but this engine seems to just soot the plugs? > > if it really is running way to rich, why the high EGT's? > > I have a hard time believing a big valve job will make a big > difference in the mixture? > > Seems to me there must be a way to set the mixture correctly and get > resaonable EGT readings. > > I'm pretty sure the ignition timing is close to where it should be. > > Any comments most gratefully received. > > Frank > > > > > > ________________________________ Dr. Perry Morrison Morrison Associates Pty Ltd (08) 89 88 4617 0408892638 prm@softhome.net PO Box 1483 Humpty Doo, NT 0836 ________________________________