---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/19/03: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:03 AM - Re: 701 Firewall Insullation (Joseph Kintz) 2. 08:25 AM - insulation/soundproofing materials (Jeff Small) 3. 09:32 AM - Re: 701 Firewall Insullation (Scott Harding) 4. 11:33 AM - CH-640 'L' Angle (Clifton J. Bardwell) 5. 01:15 PM - Re: CH-640 'L' Angle (Chesterman Family) 6. 05:03 PM - Re: CH-640 'L' Angle (David Witt) 7. 06:11 PM - Re: CH-640 'L' Angle (Clifton J. Bardwell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:45 AM PST US From: Joseph Kintz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Firewall Insullation --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joseph Kintz I hope this isn't the same "insulating paint" system demonstrated to me by the manufacturer a few years ago. He brought a table-top demonstration with a little house heated by an external light bulb. A thermometer inside the house registered the internal temperature with and without "insulating paint" on the roof. Sure enough, the insulating paint lowered the temperature inside the house. Trouble is, when I layed a sheet of white paper on the unpainted roof, the inside temperature dropped even more than with the "insulating paint". The obvious conclusion is that the white color of the paint reflects light radiation better than a darker colored surface. No surprise there. A good insulator for your firewall should reflect infrared radiation and have low thermal conductivity. I'm don't know if this "insulating paint" will fit the bill. Joe --- g t wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: g t > > Another thought along a similar line. I have seen a coating that is Latex > based, but primarily composed of a ceramic material. I used it at work for > insulating hot tanks. This may be an interesting product to pursue for heat > insulating the firewall. If anyone has interest, I will look up more > information on this material to see if it is a fit. It would certainly > provide good heat insulation in a very thin application. Probably at a > weight disadvantage to fiberglass though. > > ABC wrote:--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ABC" > > > > Mike and Group > > I found a site with some interesting products. They have a liquid sound > proofing paint ?? It's FAA approved. I have never used this product, but I > did purchase some of their 2 inch tape ( worked good , it stuck to > everything ). Just a though.... > > http://store.yahoo.com/soundproofing/index.html > > > Peter Ferguson > N601PK > Jab 3300 > 7 years in the making ..... Almost done !! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > Just a quick question for any owners of > aircraft with the 912 engine, > > have any of you went without insullating the firewall? and has there > > been any noticable heat coming through into the cockpit? And if there > > was, what type of insullation may have been used to counter the heat? I > > am almost at the point of closing up the panel forward section of the > > project and figure this would be better taken care of at this stage. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > http://search.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:09 AM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Zenith-List: insulation/soundproofing materials --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" The discussion and info from the site recently mentioned about firewall insulation materials leads to this additional input. When I planned the insulation of the firewall in my 601 the design was to use 1/4 inch "super soundproofing sheet" from ACS. I purchased that thickness because of cost (the stuff is fairly expensive) and because I didn't know how much room would be available between the header tank and the firewall. Using Bill Morelli's idea of setting the tank back off the firewall by 3/4 to 1 inch through the use of standoffs resulted in the answer to whether there would be enough room. Then Fred Hulen made the decision (indirectly) for me by discovering the foam he was going to use on the firewall could be painted - and color matched to your interior - using simple latex interior paint. The foam is the nitrate closed-cell vinyl foam mentioned on the soundproofing site. Locally you will find HVAC firms using it in new construction around office building and schools. Available in a myriad of thickness (just pay your $), it meets many fire retardant standards including FAR 25.853b. The roll mine was cut from carried numerous tags. If you ever look at one of these tags you'll see a lot of California standards. I used 1 inch thickness on the bottom half (or more) of the firewall and the 1/4 inch between the header and firewall. Attached using contact cement which probably upped the ante on flammability - BUT Fred discovered the latex paint actually cuts down on the "smolder factor." The local hardware store matched the color of my seat material. Caveat, the stuff is fairly heavy. Its heat and cold insulating properties are excellent and very little sound seems to be transmitted through it. All-aluminum a/c that weigh around 600 to 750 pounds are not going to be the quietest flying environment you can find so noise will be an objective observation. Go back in the archives and use Fred's name and "3M sound dampening tape" and you'll find something that really reduces oilcanning noises from the large areas in the rear fuselages of all the Zenith designs. It's a tape-backed, dead soft, all aluminum sheet (sometimes cut into strips) that you cut and paste. Many of the builders peering under the panel at SnF asked about how the firewall was color-matched to the interior - this is how. Anyone who would like to see the results can contact me or Fred off-list and we'll send you a few jpegs. .and PK, when you gonna kick the tires and light the fires of that Jab? Regards Jeff and 22Tango with 75+ hours and over 2600 miles of x-country ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:35 AM PST US From: Scott Harding Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Firewall Insullation --> Zenith-List message posted by: Scott Harding Joe, You are quite correct that an efficient thermal barrier system should address both thermal radiation and conduction. Your example of the piece of white paper being a better insulator than insulating paint is a good example of this. The white paper not only reflected the radiant heat, but the air gap between the paper and the roof also provided a efficient barrier to thermal conduction. Still air is a very poor conductor heat, which is how double pane windows work. The insulating paint, however, did not have the benefit of the insulating air gap and ended up conducting more heat. Scott 701 Plans and Rudder - Looking hard at the 601XL Do Not Archive At 07:02 AM 4/19/03 -0700, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Joseph Kintz > >I hope this isn't the same "insulating paint" system demonstrated to me by the >manufacturer a few years ago. He brought a table-top demonstration with a >little house heated by an external light bulb. A thermometer inside the house >registered the internal temperature with and without "insulating paint" on the >roof. Sure enough, the insulating paint lowered the temperature inside the >house. Trouble is, when I layed a sheet of white paper on the unpainted roof, >the inside temperature dropped even more than with the "insulating >paint". The >obvious conclusion is that the white color of the paint reflects light >radiation better than a darker colored surface. No surprise there. A good >insulator for your firewall should reflect infrared radiation and have low >thermal conductivity. I'm don't know if this "insulating paint" will fit the >bill. > >Joe ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:33:09 AM PST US From: "Clifton J. Bardwell" Subject: Zenith-List: CH-640 'L' Angle --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clifton J. Bardwell" Hello List, In the CH-640 Rudder Assembly Manual, there is a reference to a "STANDARD Lx35mm OPENED 18 degrees". However it gives no other dimensions. I understand the 35mm is the length (cut from a 4 foot piece), but does anyone know what the thickness and width of each side is? TIA, Clif Serial No. 640-0039 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:15:15 PM PST US From: Chesterman Family Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH-640 'L' Angle --> Zenith-List message posted by: Chesterman Family Somewhere in the beginning of the manual are the dimensions of a standard L. My 701 kit came with about 50 of them 48" long to use as required. the 640 maybe a bit heavier so I won't give you 701 dimensions Dave Chesterman 701 186 hrs last weekend I flew into and landed at a local motocross race. The riders thought they were getting big air until they saw me! do not archive "Clifton J. Bardwell" wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clifton J. Bardwell" > > Hello List, > > In the CH-640 Rudder Assembly Manual, there is a reference to a > "STANDARD Lx35mm OPENED 18 degrees". However it gives no other > dimensions. I understand the 35mm is the length (cut from a 4 foot > piece), but does anyone know what the thickness and width of each side > is? > > TIA, > Clif > Serial No. 640-0039 > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:53 PM PST US From: "David Witt" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: CH-640 'L' Angle --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Witt" Hi Clif In the "Design and Construction Standards" manual that came with my plans, on page 2-251 p. 1/2 There are standard aluminum shapes. One is an "L" and the other is a "Z". I haven't started building, but I think this is what is meant by "Standard L". I believe this is the angle shown connecting the Spar to the Tip Rib on drawing 640-R-4. Dave Serial No. 640-0037 > In the CH-640 Rudder Assembly Manual, there is a reference to a > "STANDARD Lx35mm OPENED 18 degrees". However it gives no other > dimensions. I understand the 35mm is the length (cut from a 4 foot > piece), but does anyone know what the thickness and width of each side > is? > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:53 PM PST US From: "Clifton J. Bardwell" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: CH-640 'L' Angle --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clifton J. Bardwell" Thanks for the replies. I found the specs. Somehow I missed that page when I was going through the book. As my Dad used to say, sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees. :) Thanks again. Clif Serial no. 640-0039 -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Witt Subject: RE: Zenith-List: CH-640 'L' Angle --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Witt" Hi Clif In the "Design and Construction Standards" manual that came with my plans, on page 2-251 p. 1/2 There are standard aluminum shapes. One is an "L" and the other is a "Z". I haven't started building, but I think this is what is meant by "Standard L". I believe this is the angle shown connecting the Spar to the Tip Rib on drawing 640-R-4. Dave Serial No. 640-0037 > In the CH-640 Rudder Assembly Manual, there is a reference to a > "STANDARD Lx35mm OPENED 18 degrees". However it gives no other > dimensions. I understand the 35mm is the length (cut from a 4 foot > piece), but does anyone know what the thickness and width of each side > is? > direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.