---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 05/18/03: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:54 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 33 Msgs - 05/17/03 (Mark Weiss) 2. 01:01 AM - Re: What Walmart tires? (Phil & Michele Miller) 3. 01:14 AM - Re: 601HD real world cruise speed (Richard McLachlan) 4. 06:36 AM - Southwest Regional Fly-In (Joseph Kintz) 5. 07:07 AM - Re: Southwest Regional Fly-In (Clifton J. Bardwell) 6. 07:09 AM - Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? (Don Walker) 7. 07:25 AM - Re: Southwest Regional Fly-In (ac6qj@earthlink.net) 8. 07:37 AM - Re: Southwest Regional Fly-In (Randall Thomure) 9. 07:41 AM - Re: Southwest Regional Fly-In (Michael Murphy) 10. 07:41 AM - Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? (Cy Galley) 11. 07:55 AM - Re: Southwest Regional Fly-In (Pwalsh4539@aol.com) 12. 08:04 AM - Re: What Walmart tires? (Cy Galley) 13. 08:41 AM - Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? (Benford2@aol.com) 14. 10:16 AM - Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? (Randy L. Thwing) 15. 10:47 AM - Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? (Cy Galley) 16. 10:57 AM - More EAA ? (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com) 17. 11:06 AM - Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? (Fred or Sandy Hulen) 18. 11:06 AM - Re: More EAA ? (ac6qj@earthlink.net) 19. 12:12 PM - Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? (Cy Galley) 20. 12:27 PM - Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? (Cy Galley) 21. 12:29 PM - Re: More EAA ? (Cy Galley) 22. 12:31 PM - Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? (ac6qj@earthlink.net) 23. 12:58 PM - Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? (GW) 24. 01:31 PM - Re: More EAA ? (Morse code) (Carlos Sa) 25. 01:59 PM - To whom do we comment? (Jeff Small) 26. 02:47 PM - Re: Southwest Regional Fly-In (Jeff Small) 27. 02:59 PM - Re: 601HD real world cruise speed (Brian Caithcart) 28. 03:10 PM - Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? (Cy Galley) 29. 03:18 PM - Re: To whom do we comment? (Cy Galley) 30. 03:29 PM - Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? (Cy Galley) 31. 03:57 PM - Re: More EAA ? (Matthew P. Cummings) 32. 06:10 PM - EAA Bashing (Elwood140@aol.com) 33. 06:35 PM - Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? (Greg Ferris) 34. 06:42 PM - Prop (The Meiste's) 35. 06:52 PM - EAA sucks (Fred Poor) 36. 07:41 PM - Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? (Cy Galley) 37. 07:45 PM - Re: EAA sucks (Robert Hillebrand) 38. 08:13 PM - Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? (wizard-24@juno.com) 39. 08:30 PM - Re: EAA Bashing (Benford2@aol.com) 40. 10:28 PM - Re: Southwest Regional Fly-In (Gary Gower) 41. 10:34 PM - Re: What Walmart tires? (Gary Gower) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:49 AM PST US From: Mark Weiss Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Digest: 33 Msgs - 05/17/03 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mark Weiss Hi: You have sent Mark Weiss an email. He is on vacation and will get back to you when he returns. Thanks Mark Weiss This message was sent from my Palm wireless email account. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:56 AM PST US From: "Phil & Michele Miller" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: What Walmart tires? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller" Hi, Guys, Several years ago I worked as a tire salesman so have a little working knowledge of tires although not of the aircraft variety. The "Not for Highway Use" designation relates mainly to the speed that a wheelbarrow tire is designed to operate at. At highway speeds, cornering (side) loads are much higher than the tire is designed for. There are other considerations also such as rubber compound suitability the possibility of heat buildup. The risk of a blowout is real. Side loads are certainly a significant factor to be considered for aircraft tires. A blowout when tracking straight down the runway will cause a sudden, large increase in rolling resistance on that side resulting in a severe pull to that side which you may or mat not be able to counter with rudder/steering/differential braking. If it occurs during a muffed crosswind landing when tracking sideways, the wheel may dig in and put enormous side load on the landing gear. The scenarios are easy to imagine - collapsed gear/prop strike/wing damage. I guess it's up to each aircraft owner to make the call as they see fit but make sure you have all the information on which to make an INFORMED decision. Here's a thought to end with: I understand that Ken Brock (of gyroplane fame) died when landing a taildragger that swerved off the runway into a tree when the tailwheel failed. As noted above, a blowout could cause a similar accident. The right tires for the job are good insurance. Cheers, Phil Miller New Zealand (701 912S) -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of g t Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What Walmart tires? --> Zenith-List message posted by: g t At least at one time, trailer tires had a stronger side wall construction due to the load and the bouncing of the load one can get on highways. I do not know if this is true today anymore, but it would be worth the research before one tries a trailer tire or a wheelbarrow tire. Others please post as I will if I find additonal information. DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR AIRPLANE IF YOU BLOW A TIRE ON LANDING????? Grant Corriveau wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > There is logic here that says as the wheelbarrow tires are so light > one could carry a spare in the tail behind the seats when heading to > one of these places...Assuming you don't wreck the airframe if it > happened you would at least be able to get home. I've never been able to find a definitive answer to the 'not for hiway use' wheelbarrow tire / trailer tire discussion...but I have a theory that the trailer tire tread is 'hardened' in some way that makes it suitable for long hours of high speed running on ashphalt/pavement. The experience on this list with the original wheelbarrow tires seems to bear this out. Those working from grass strips seem to get a lot more use from these tires than those running on paved airports. And when you think of it, our aircraft don't spend enough time on the ground to heat the tires up significantly, so I think it all comes down to load capability more than tread wear, especially if you're not always on the pavement. I'd like to get more technical information to affirm or refute my theory... if anyone finds a good 'tire' theory page on the net somewhere???.... -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 --------------------------------- direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:14:17 AM PST US From: Richard McLachlan Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601HD real world cruise speed --> Zenith-List message posted by: Richard McLachlan We get an indicated 110 kts @ 5000 RPM 3 blade Warp Drive set to 15 deg. 80 HP Rotax. However, we have no static system and have measured ASI as 15 kts over at this speed. Hence true speed probably 95 kts. Richard In article <200305171411.h4HEBYT21000@matronics.com>, Cleone Markwell writes >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Cleone Markwell > >Brian, In cold weather I can actually see 100mph, at 3000 msl, at 5500 rpm, >but not in hot wx. I have the 80 hp Rotax and have my ASI checked out >pretty close. I was disappointed also, but this is the real world. I >don't know how some fellows get 20 mph more. Perhaps without a good static >system. Cleone > > >At 06:14 PM 5/16/03 -0600, you wrote: >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brian Caithcart" >> >> >>What is the REALWORLD cruise speed for a CH601HD. I've heard from many >>sources that the published 120mph cruise speed should be more like 100mph. I >>need to know for when I order my prop. What are the 601HD flyers on the list >>getting for cruise speed? >> >>Brian Caithcart >>Saskatoon, Sask. >>CH601HD/corvair >> >> > > >============== >============== >============== >============== > > -- Richard McLachlan CH601HDS/R22 G3OQT Landing Site info at http://www.foxfield.demon.co.uk ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:54 AM PST US From: Joseph Kintz Subject: Zenith-List: Southwest Regional Fly-In --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joseph Kintz I just got back from the EAA Southwest Regional Fly-In in New Braunfels, TX. There were somewhere around 200 homebuilts and restorations to see, but not a single Zenith. The most popular kits were RV's. Nice looking planes and impressive performance numbers. For someone who is still in the dreaming stage, why did you choose a Zenith over, say, an RV-7A or RV-9A? Joe __________________________________ http://search.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:32 AM PST US From: "Clifton J. Bardwell" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Southwest Regional Fly-In --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clifton J. Bardwell" Two reasons: 1. The CH-640 is a four seater 2. I wanted to work by myself most of the time which precludes bucked rivets. Clif CH-640 http://homebuilt.duck.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Kintz Subject: Zenith-List: Southwest Regional Fly-In --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joseph Kintz I just got back from the EAA Southwest Regional Fly-In in New Braunfels, TX. There were somewhere around 200 homebuilts and restorations to see, but not a single Zenith. The most popular kits were RV's. Nice looking planes and impressive performance numbers. For someone who is still in the dreaming stage, why did you choose a Zenith over, say, an RV-7A or RV-9A? Joe __________________________________ http://search.yahoo.com direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:34 AM PST US From: "Don Walker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" Interestingly enough our local chapter has 15 or 20 members and no home builders. I gave them a program a few years ago and was to find little interest in homebuilt aircraft. None of the homebuilders around here are members. hmmmm Don Walker HDS do not archive. >From: Benford2@aol.com >Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? >Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 23:53:05 EDT > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > >In a message dated 5/17/2003 9:34:55 AM Mountain Daylight Time, >zodiacjeff@msn.com writes: > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" > > > > Opened today's issue of EAA e-HOT LINE and read that eight more pilots >have > > been selected to fly their states' flag to FFA as part of the "50 Flags >to > > Kitty Hawk" program. > > > > None of the eight are flying homebuilt a/c as part of this centennial > > celebration of the world's first homebuilt. Instead we have a Cessna >172, > > a Mooney, and a Skylane as part of the parade of a/c participating. > > > > Would seem to me that the organization that began its existence with > > interest in homebuilts and whose first name is "Experimental" might want >to > > pick some pilots and aircraft that reflect that interest. > > > > Yes, I applied to the program, and no, I wasn't selected to be the > > Pennsylvania pilot; maybe that explains my dissatisfaction. The >"roots" > > of EAA (the Chapters) may still grow in the garages and workshops of its > > members, but the national organization seems to be lured by the big >money > > of interests like Ford and Eclipse. > > > > My grumpy two-cents worth.jeff > > > > > >AMEN to all that. It has turned into the Poberancy's private assoc. > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:36 AM PST US From: ac6qj@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Southwest Regional Fly-In --> Zenith-List message posted by: ac6qj@earthlink.net >For someone who is still in the dreaming stage, why did you choose a >Zenith over, say, an RV-7A or RV-9A? > One simple reason: The noise of a compressor and bucking rivets!!! -- Best regards, Ray Montagne Cupertino, CA ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:16 AM PST US From: "Randall Thomure" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Southwest Regional Fly-In --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randall Thomure" I was real close to going to the RV-9, but it came down to 3 things: 1. Cost - including tooling - engine - kit 2. Time to build - 500 -vs- 2000 (then double for the real number). 3. Ease of construction - Blind rivets -vs- driven rivets. Since I am on my own, this was a key consideration. This is my first kit. First, I needed to prove to my self that I could build it to my standards. Second, I needed to not get in too much trouble with The Boss (my wife). I am already looking ahead to second project will be for a faster plane - an RV-9A or a Lancair. TBD at a much later date. Don't let the number of RV's steer you away from a great plane and building experience. RT -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Kintz Subject: Zenith-List: Southwest Regional Fly-In --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joseph Kintz I just got back from the EAA Southwest Regional Fly-In in New Braunfels, TX. There were somewhere around 200 homebuilts and restorations to see, but not a single Zenith. The most popular kits were RV's. Nice looking planes and impressive performance numbers. For someone who is still in the dreaming stage, why did you choose a Zenith over, say, an RV-7A or RV-9A? Joe __________________________________ http://search.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:12 AM PST US From: Michael Murphy Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Southwest Regional Fly-In --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Murphy Hey Joseph, I am in the dreaming stage and I wanted to build an RV 7. I have since started to consider the Zenith XL because I don't know yet if I can regain my medical. I haven't flown in over three years because I was diagnosed as having MS in July 2000. I have since regained all of my motor skills and can do everything that I want to do. If it turns out that I can't get a third class medical then I would be able to get a Sport Pilot Rating and fly the XL. I WILL fly again! Joseph Kintz wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joseph Kintz I just got back from the EAA Southwest Regional Fly-In in New Braunfels, TX. There were somewhere around 200 homebuilts and restorations to see, but not a single Zenith. The most popular kits were RV's. Nice looking planes and impressive performance numbers. For someone who is still in the dreaming stage, why did you choose a Zenith over, say, an RV-7A or RV-9A? Joe __________________________________ http://search.yahoo.com --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:17 AM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" I beg your pardon. What publication aren't you getting on time? What do you gain with your comments without any positive suggestions for improvement? There are many things that go on behind the scenes for your benefit. What would you change or add? Do you think EAA would have the same power with the FAA if it was several little fragmented groups instead of one large cohesive group. Incidentally, If you think we are leaving something out, you are more than welcome to write on the topic. Cy Galley - life member, Chair; Emergency Aircraft Repair Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "GW" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "GW" > > I joined the EAA in the '60's and it was a bunch of guys that loved > homebuilt planes. Now the EAA is a money driven PAC (Political Action > Committie) that tries to be all things to all airmen (which it cannot do). > > There needs to be seperate Associations for the many hats that EAA is trying > to wear. But, with Sport Pilot coming up the EAA will don yet another hat. > They look sort of ridiculous with some many differnts hats,caps, fedoras on > their head all at once. Tom should have stayed with aerobatics. He does not > have the leadership ability of his father. > > Internally the place is a featherbed. They can not even get their > publications out and delivered on time. > > GW > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > > > > In a message dated 5/17/2003 9:34:55 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > > zodiacjeff@msn.com writes: > > > > > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" > > > > > > Opened today's issue of EAA e-HOT LINE and read that eight more pilots > have > > > been selected to fly their states' flag to FFA as part of the "50 Flags > to > > > Kitty Hawk" program. > > > > > > None of the eight are flying homebuilt a/c as part of this centennial > > > celebration of the world's first homebuilt. Instead we have a Cessna > 172, > > > a Mooney, and a Skylane as part of the parade of a/c participating. > > > > > > Would seem to me that the organization that began its existence with > > > interest in homebuilts and whose first name is "Experimental" might want > to > > > pick some pilots and aircraft that reflect that interest. > > > > > > Yes, I applied to the program, and no, I wasn't selected to be the > > > Pennsylvania pilot; maybe that explains my dissatisfaction. The > "roots" > > > of EAA (the Chapters) may still grow in the garages and workshops of its > > > members, but the national organization seems to be lured by the big > money > > > of interests like Ford and Eclipse. > > > > > > My grumpy two-cents worth.jeff > > > > > > > > > > AMEN to all that. It has turned into the Poberancy's private assoc. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:37 AM PST US From: Pwalsh4539@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Southwest Regional Fly-In --> Zenith-List message posted by: Pwalsh4539@aol.com Build time and cost. Comparing a Zenith to an RV is comparing apples to oranges. Personally, as a first timer, I just thought (correctly, I think) that the 601 or 701 was a more realistic goal. It surely flies great although not fast, it is still on par speedwise with the 152s and 172s I was used to flying and is better in all other ways. If you want a faster, more expensive plane with a much longer build time, opt for the RV. If you want a slower, less expensive, equally safe plane with a short build time, opt for the Zenith designs. Of course, I have never built an RV so my opinion is somewhat biased. Patrick Walsh 601 HD ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:14 AM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What Walmart tires? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Ken Brock was not killed due to the failure of the tailwheel. His T-18 hit a cement post but what killed him was the unsecured tool box that hit him in the head, not the loss of control, not the hitting of the cement post. Marie had little but a few bruises from the accident and is still alive. Point is that most tire blow outs are not as fatal. At the landing speed of a Zenith a blowout should be little more than an inconvenience. Cy Galley Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil & Michele Miller" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: What Walmart tires? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller" > > Hi, Guys, > > Several years ago I worked as a tire salesman so have a little working > knowledge of tires although not of the aircraft variety. > > The "Not for Highway Use" designation relates mainly to the speed that a > wheelbarrow tire is designed to operate at. At highway speeds, cornering > (side) loads are much higher than the tire is designed for. There are > other considerations also such as rubber compound suitability the > possibility of heat buildup. The risk of a blowout is real. Side loads > are certainly a significant factor to be considered for aircraft tires. > > A blowout when tracking straight down the runway will cause a sudden, > large increase in rolling resistance on that side resulting in a severe > pull to that side which you may or mat not be able to counter with > rudder/steering/differential braking. If it occurs during a muffed > crosswind landing when tracking sideways, the wheel may dig in and put > enormous side load on the landing gear. The scenarios are easy to > imagine - collapsed gear/prop strike/wing damage. > > I guess it's up to each aircraft owner to make the call as they see fit > but make sure you have all the information on which to make an INFORMED > decision. > > Here's a thought to end with: I understand that Ken Brock (of gyroplane > fame) died when landing a taildragger that swerved off the runway into a > tree when the tailwheel failed. As noted above, a blowout could cause a > similar accident. The right tires for the job are good insurance. > > Cheers, > Phil Miller > New Zealand > (701 912S) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of g t > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What Walmart tires? > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: g t > > At least at one time, trailer tires had a stronger side wall > construction due to the load and the bouncing of the load one can get on > highways. I do not know if this is true today anymore, but it would be > worth the research before one tries a trailer tire or a wheelbarrow > tire. Others please post as I will if I find additonal information. > > DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR AIRPLANE IF YOU BLOW A TIRE ON > LANDING????? > > > Grant Corriveau wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > > > From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > > > There is logic here that says as the wheelbarrow tires are so light > > one could carry a spare in the tail behind the seats when heading to > > one of these places...Assuming you don't wreck the airframe if it > > happened you would at least be able to get home. > > I've never been able to find a definitive answer to the 'not for hiway > use' wheelbarrow tire / trailer tire discussion...but I have a theory > that the trailer tire tread is 'hardened' in some way that makes it > suitable for long hours of high speed running on ashphalt/pavement. > > The experience on this list with the original wheelbarrow tires seems to > bear this out. Those working from grass strips seem to get a lot more > use from these tires than those running on paved airports. > > And when you think of it, our aircraft don't spend enough time on the > ground to heat the tires up significantly, so I think it all comes down > to load capability more than tread wear, especially if you're not always > on the pavement. > > I'd like to get more technical information to affirm or refute my > theory... if anyone finds a good 'tire' theory page on the net > somewhere???.... > > -- > Grant Corriveau > C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 > > > --------------------------------- > > > direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:36 AM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com In a message dated 5/18/2003 8:41:31 AM Mountain Daylight Time, cgalley@qcbc.org writes: > > What do you gain with your comments without any positive suggestions for > improvement? There are many things that go on behind the scenes for your > benefit. > > What would you change or add? Do you think EAA would have the same power > with the FAA if it was several little fragmented groups instead of one > large > cohesive group. > > Incidentally, If you think we are leaving something out, you are more than > welcome to write on the topic. > > Cy Galley - life member, Chair; Emergency Aircraft Repair > Editor, EAA Safety Programs > cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org > > Well, let me think.... First off the insurance fiasco last year got me really thinking of the quality of the people in charge of the EAA. I was under the impression that the EAA's primary purpose was to assist the Homebuilt / Experimental movement in joining us all together so there is power in numbers. First, the underwriter the EAA was in bed with dropped auto engine / alternative powerplant builders, then the carrier started to NOT renew policies. Now would'n ya think people at the Eaa home office would have had a better insite to the problem. It was only after a bunch of builders started to complain that they did something. The Eaa should be PRO active, NOT RE active. Now, I understand that the new carrier is balking at alternative powerplants again. I am president of the EAA Chapter 1049 here in Jackson Hole Wy. I put in countless hours working through all the details to keep the chapter thriving and without a dime in compensation. You, on the other hand, are drawing a paycheck, benefit package and a pension from the EAA so I would expect you paint a real rosy picture of the organization. We have flown 256 young eagles two years ago, last year it rained 4 out of 6 hours and we still flew 219 kids. I do want to mention that Tom P attended our Young Eagles day last year and he commented multiple times what a well run, safe, efficient and enthusiastic event we put on. Funny though, when I read Sport Aviation each month all I see is Pictures and articles on the Poberancy family receiving awards and attending Banquets. He never did mention anything about our chapter busting its ass to pass on the fever of flight in Sport Avaition. I am working hard to organize this years Young Eagles event with a goal of flying 300 kids on Sat July 12, 2003. Of course it helps to draw in kids when we have some high profile members in our chapter like Dr Rich Sugden, Harrison Ford, Jack Hagle and a host of other talented flyers. I will see this event through and make it the best Young Eagles fly-in that EAA has ever seen. After that I will resign and not renew my Eaa membership. I will be damned if I will send in any more of my HARD earned money to the Eaa so the the Poberancy family can keep their Fleet of toys flying and hog the spotlight, all the while forgetting to give credit to the grass roots effort that keep the EAA alive. In closing Cy, I want to ask just two question to you, 1, What is your defination of a Homebuilt / Experimantal plane and what should the main purpose of the EAA be????? 2, If you were not receiveing compensation from the EAA would you still support them so strongly ???? Ben Haas. Jackson Hole Wy. N801BH. ps, I am just finishing up my Zenith 801 with a high dollar all aluminum Ford V-8 and guess what???? I probably will not be able purchase insurance from the EAA because I am considered a " high risk". Go figure !!!!!!!!! ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:55 AM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" Hello Cy: I am chairman of our local EAA chapter's "find a new project committee". Our idea is to have a chapter aircraft like a old 172 that could be a flying project that members could fly and retain currency (and Safety) during the years our building their projects etc. Our chapter President, contacted "National" last week to inquire how our Chapter might organize such an ownership. He reported to me yesterday that local Chapters could not own a airplane, and that "National" was forwarding him information on how to organize a separate "flying club". So how is it this "bedrock" AVIATION organization is afraid to allow local Chapters to own an airplane? I've heard the howls about liability, then the howlers go off and fly Young Eagles 3 at a time, their logic is that basic insurance is fine for flying kids, (any liability there?) but no amount of insurance is adequate for a chapter airplane. If we have to create a separate, new organization (flying club) to provide our group with a means to fly, why should there be a EAA? Is the EAA's watchword "we support everyone flying in every area, but we would never, ever own a airplane ourselves". The insurance aspects have been previously mentioned. Why doesn't the EAA have a insurance program that supports and protects such flying projects. I myself am tired of attending Chapter meetings with a 10 minute agenda with no content, the sole result being eating cookies and drinking coffee with the 70 and 80 year olds. I turned 51 last week and believe I am our Chapter's youngest member. It's easy to see why no younger people are interested. I took on this committee assignment to create a reason for active aviation people to join our Chapter, it remains to be seen if that can happen. Regards, Randy L. Thwing Chairman "Find a new project committee" EAA Chapter 163, L:as Vegas, NV Owner 1948 Model 35 Bonanza N4546V 1/3 Owner 1959 Cessna 150 N5744E Stalled Builder Zenair 701 (plans) Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > > I beg your pardon. What publication aren't you getting on time? > > What do you gain with your comments without any positive suggestions for > improvement? There are many things that go on behind the scenes for your > benefit. > > What would you change or add? Do you think EAA would have the same power > with the FAA if it was several little fragmented groups instead of one large > cohesive group. > > Incidentally, If you think we are leaving something out, you are more than > welcome to write on the topic. > > Cy Galley - life member, Chair; Emergency Aircraft Repair > Editor, EAA Safety Programs > cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:47:16 AM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Interesting. Don't let the signature block mislead you. I do receive a small honorarium for the writing my safety section in the Experimenter that I do from my home in Rock Island Illinois. No paycheck, No Pension, No Benefits other than the "That a boys" that I get from members that I have helped. I am a retired school teacher and I receive about 100 times from my school teacher's pension than the honorarium. This honorarium helps cover the expenses such as film, photo development, phone calls, postage, computer and printer expenses I incur as a writer for the EAA. I have been a supporter of the EAA for over 30 years. I have been Vice-President, President, plus Newsletter Editor for about 15 of those years for Chapter 75. I am the webmaster for our website and computer support for our Chapter's monthly Young Eagle program. Several of our Chapter 75 pilots have broken the century mark with one pilot with over 300 Young Eagles We even got 3 Young Eagles from our B-17 tour stop this spring. I am a Century Club Member, A Life member of EAA, A brick contributor to the Eagle Hangar at Oshkosh, a 15 year member of the Vintage Aircraft Division, in addition to being the unpaid (still no paycheck) editor of the BC-Contact! which is the Newsletter for the Bellanca-Champion Type club. I am the Chair of the Emergency Aircraft Repair which has been a service project of Chapter 75 for over 40 years. I have about 45 members of Chapter 75 committed to getting convention attendees and their planes back home --- safely. Chapter 75 built the buildings that we do our repair work. I am a Technical Counselor. I know that I would still support EAA without the honorarium as I believe in the goals and programs of the EAA. Do I always agree with the EAA? Heavens no! Do you know of another organization that has the skills and manpower necessary to promote Sport Flying? To the insurance problem. The relationship between Avemco and EAA was brought to head by the events of 9-11. In addition, ALL insurance programs are funded by the premiums paid. They do not and cannot operate at a loss. If a segments of the insured shows excessive losses, then the policies just will not be renewed. This is not an unusual situation. State Farm, for example, pulled their homeowners policies out of the state of Florida as hurricanes losses would have bankrupted them it they had continued. I feel that the separation from Avemco would have occurred anyway. Avemco did NOT consult EAA when they dropped the policies. Headquarters only knew about the dropped policies when our members told them. The EAA has worked hard and continues to provide new coverage for a very small segment of the experimental aircraft field. Insurance only works if the uncertain losses can be spread out over many policy holders. Too few polices or too large losses will remove coverage for that segment. I as Safety Programs Editor and EAA have worked hard in trying to reduce the losses that occur in the homebuilt first flights with the Flight Advisor program and the FREE Transition Training Waiver Program that the EAA set up with the FAA. When the losses reduce, then the insurance policies will be sold. So you and I have a large incentive to fly safely, to reduce accidents, to reduce the payouts so the insurance companies will offer coverage. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter Soon to be Sport Pilot From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > > In a message dated 5/18/2003 8:41:31 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > cgalley@qcbc.org writes: > > > > > > What do you gain with your comments without any positive suggestions for > > improvement? There are many things that go on behind the scenes for your > > benefit. > > > > What would you change or add? Do you think EAA would have the same power > > with the FAA if it was several little fragmented groups instead of one > > large > > cohesive group. > > > > Incidentally, If you think we are leaving something out, you are more than > > welcome to write on the topic. > > > > Cy Galley - life member, Chair; Emergency Aircraft Repair > > Editor, EAA Safety Programs > > cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org > > > > > > Well, let me think.... > > First off the insurance fiasco last year got me really thinking of the > quality of the people in charge of the EAA. I was under the impression that > the EAA's primary purpose was to assist the Homebuilt / Experimental movement > in joining us all together so there is power in numbers. First, the > underwriter the EAA was in bed with dropped auto engine / alternative > powerplant builders, then the carrier started to NOT renew policies. Now > would'n ya think people at the Eaa home office would have had a better insite > to the problem. It was only after a bunch of builders started to complain > that they did something. The Eaa should be PRO active, NOT RE active. > > Now, I understand that the new carrier is balking at alternative powerplants > again. I am president of the EAA Chapter 1049 here in Jackson Hole Wy. I put > in countless hours working through all the details to keep the chapter > thriving and without a dime in compensation. You, on the other hand, are > drawing a paycheck, benefit package and a pension from the EAA so I would > expect you paint a real rosy picture of the organization. We have flown 256 > young eagles two years ago, last year it rained 4 out of 6 hours and we still > flew 219 kids. I do want to mention that Tom P attended our Young Eagles day > last year and he commented multiple times what a well run, safe, efficient > and enthusiastic event we put on. Funny though, when I read Sport Aviation > each month all I see is Pictures and articles on the Poberancy family > receiving awards and attending Banquets. He never did mention anything about > our chapter busting its ass to pass on the fever of flight in Sport Avaition. > I am working hard to organize this years Young Eagles event with a goal of > flying 300 kids on Sat July 12, 2003. Of course it helps to draw in kids > when we have some high profile members in our chapter like Dr Rich Sugden, > Harrison Ford, Jack Hagle and a host of other talented flyers. I will see > this event through and make it the best Young Eagles fly-in that EAA has ever > seen. After that I will resign and not renew my Eaa membership. I will be > damned if I will send in any more of my HARD earned money to the Eaa so the > the Poberancy family can keep their Fleet of toys flying and hog the > spotlight, all the while forgetting to give credit to the grass roots effort > that keep the EAA alive. > > In closing Cy, I want to ask just two question to you, > > 1, What is your defination of a Homebuilt / Experimantal plane and what > should the main purpose of the EAA be????? > > 2, If you were not receiveing compensation from the EAA would you still > support them so strongly ???? > > Ben Haas. Jackson Hole Wy. N801BH. ps, I am just finishing up my Zenith 801 > with a high dollar all aluminum Ford V-8 and guess what???? I probably will > not be able purchase insurance from the EAA because I am considered a " high > risk". Go figure !!!!!!!!! > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:39 AM PST US From: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: More EAA ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com An acquaintance, a long-time EAA member, remarked some months ago that he was also a member of the ARRL (Amateur Radio Relay League). Direct quotes would not be acceptable in this forum, but he was able to identify areas in which both organizations might be out of touch with reality. His solution was that only ONE person in any locality should actually remain a member, while the rest quietly drop out and just let the beast die of hunger. The one local member could be the "whipping boy" for all, and then blamed for the demise of the beast. Somebody send the EAA a message in Morse Code. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, our friendly masked homebuilder was busy inserting Clecos in his latest Mach 3 stealth STOL 12-seater, powered by a fuel-injected Briggs & Stratton lawn mower engine. New Jersey will sweep the Ducks for the Cup. (THAT should start some really important tirades). Zed Smith 701/R912/90 percent DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:25 AM PST US From: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" Hey Cy, I appreciate your contributions, both to this group and to EAA in general. Would you possibly know the "appropriate" person within EAA to send comments to in support of Jeff Small's observations? I too feel that the aircraft chosen for the centenial of flight should be at least for the most part be.. "Experimental". Perhaps if the right person within EAA were to read his observations, a change might be considered. Thanks Fred Hulen do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:37 AM PST US From: ac6qj@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More EAA ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: ac6qj@earthlink.net *-- **** -*-- **--** *-- **** --- ** *** *-** ** *** - * -* ** -* --* **--** -- Best Regards, Ray Montagne Cupertino, CA ================================================================================ Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL builder #4939 Construction Log & Photos: Build Status: Rudder completed Elevator Completed Stabilizer Completed Flaps Completed Ailerons Completed Right Wing Under Construction ================================================================================ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:55 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" O.K. Since I have placed myself in the barrel. I ran a flying club for about 10 years. The more members, the tougher it is to get insurance coverage. It might be impossible to get coverage for a chapter but very easy for a separately formed corporation. This Corporation can be restricted so only chapter members can join but it separates the liability from the chapter and the EAA supplied liability insurance. Airplanes are expensive to insure. Chapter non-flying activities are not. As for chapter meetings, they are what the leadership and membership set up. One trick that my chapter uses is a program provider raffle. Everyone's name in a hat and we draw for a 2 year period. If you name is drawn, you are responsible for providing a program. You don't have to present the program just round it up. The program can be almost anything flying related. The best programs are people from within the chapter talking about things they have done. Last month we had a Quickie builder and flyer get out his construction photos starting almost 15 years ago. The pictures were scanned, made into a PowerPoint presentation and he walked us thru the various stages with pictures of him and fellow chapter members building his plane. Since there are still some foam and glass builders it was a great learning experience. The one picture he left out was the picture of him receiving Reserve Grand Champion at Oshkosh as he was too modest. But the audience knew and told the newcomers. We have had building programs, Building with metal, Building with tube and fabric Several were presented by Oshkosh or other major flyin Champions. Running an FBO in Alaska. Weight and Balance using the Chapter's scales. A hands on rib stitching. Gas welding. Making a Piper type metal rib using a stretcher/Shrinker. Wearing Night Vision Goggles while helicopter flying. Boy that is weird. Time to Climb to 10,000 international record. Weather bureau people, Tower operators. Correcting oiling problems on a Lycoming. History of our local airplane factory, the Monocoupe. The local ultra-light companies, Challenger and Genisus. The list goes on and on as the members really work at making a good presentation. Plus we also have 3 fly-in pot lucks during the summer and a Christmas potluck with Mr and Mrs Claus to pass out the gifts to the young and not-so young. One key is to have a newsletter or website to tell the membership what will happen and how it happened. I like your Chapter Airplane idea. Remember, it takes a take-charge person to keep it running... and lots of money. Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion Club Newsletter Editor & EAA TC www.bellanca-championclub.com Actively supporting Aeroncas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" > > Hello Cy: > I am chairman of our local EAA chapter's "find a new project > committee". Our idea is to have a chapter aircraft like a old 172 that > could be a flying project that members could fly and retain currency (and > Safety) during the years our building their projects etc. Our chapter > President, contacted "National" last week to inquire how our Chapter might > organize such an ownership. He reported to me yesterday that local Chapters > could not own a airplane, and that "National" was forwarding him information > on how to organize a separate "flying club". > > So how is it this "bedrock" AVIATION organization is afraid to allow > local Chapters to own an airplane? > > I've heard the howls about liability, then the howlers go off and fly > Young Eagles 3 at a time, their logic is that basic insurance is fine for > flying kids, (any liability there?) but no amount of insurance is adequate > for a chapter airplane. > > If we have to create a separate, new organization (flying club) to > provide our group with a means to fly, why should there be a EAA? Is the > EAA's watchword "we support everyone flying in every area, but we would > never, ever own a airplane ourselves". > > The insurance aspects have been previously mentioned. Why doesn't the > EAA have a insurance program that supports and protects such flying > projects. > > I myself am tired of attending Chapter meetings with a 10 minute agenda > with no content, the sole result being eating cookies and drinking coffee > with the 70 and 80 year olds. I turned 51 last week and believe I am our > Chapter's youngest member. It's easy to see why no younger people are > interested. I took on this committee assignment to create a reason for > active aviation people to join our Chapter, it remains to be seen if that > can happen. > > Regards, > > Randy L. Thwing > > Chairman "Find a new project committee" EAA Chapter 163, L:as Vegas, NV > Owner 1948 Model 35 Bonanza N4546V > 1/3 Owner 1959 Cessna 150 N5744E > Stalled Builder Zenair 701 (plans) > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > > > > I beg your pardon. What publication aren't you getting on time? > > > > What do you gain with your comments without any positive suggestions for > > improvement? There are many things that go on behind the scenes for your > > benefit. > > > > What would you change or add? Do you think EAA would have the same power > > with the FAA if it was several little fragmented groups instead of one > large > > cohesive group. > > > > Incidentally, If you think we are leaving something out, you are more than > > welcome to write on the topic. > > > > Cy Galley - life member, Chair; Emergency Aircraft Repair > > Editor, EAA Safety Programs > > cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:20 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Beat you to it! Glad I'm not the only person that thought the EAA should do what they can to have experimentals represented. I regularly forward messages to my contacts at EAA for them to respond, handle, or inform. Even though my signature says I am the Safety Programs Editor for the Experimenter, I actually live in Rock Island, IL and do all submissions by the internet. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" > > Hey Cy, > > I appreciate your contributions, both to this group and to EAA in general. > Would you possibly know the "appropriate" person within EAA to send comments > to in support of Jeff Small's observations? I too feel that the aircraft > chosen for the centenial of flight should be at least for the most part be.. > "Experimental". Perhaps if the right person within EAA were to read his > observations, a change might be considered. > Thanks > > Fred Hulen > > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:29:49 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More EAA ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Sorry, I don't read Morse code. Amateur Radio is about the only group I've not joined. Cy Galley - MVR-AACA www.aaca.org/mvr ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More EAA ? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: ac6qj@earthlink.net > > *-- **** -*-- **--** > > *-- **** --- ** *** *-** ** *** - * -* ** -* --* **--** > -- > > Best Regards, Ray Montagne > Cupertino, CA > > ============================================================================ ==== > > Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL builder #4939 > Construction Log & Photos: > Build Status: Rudder completed > Elevator Completed > Stabilizer Completed > Flaps Completed > Ailerons Completed > Right Wing Under Construction > > ============================================================================ ==== > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:23 PM PST US From: ac6qj@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? --> Zenith-List message posted by: ac6qj@earthlink.net What would make me happy with the EAA: 1. My local chapter did not loose membership applications / dues payments and cancel memberships after two months. 2. Local technical advisors were interested in scheduling inspections. 4. Local technical advisors responded to communication. Even a negative response is better than silence! 5. Technical advisors were interested in providing constructive criticism rather than trying to boost their own ego by expounding on knowledge that is not relevant to an aircraft inspection, construction, engineering flight testing or handling. 6. The local chapter was interested if anyone was building. 7. The local chapter showed any interest in what anyone is building. 8. The local chapter showed any interest in the status of anyone's project. 9. The local chapter responded to requests for help with the technical advisor program. I could go into great detail on these issues. Suffice to say that I joined EAA specifically to participate in the technical advisor and flight advisor programs and have yet to have any positive or in the least way, a cooperative exchange that would allow me to participate in these programs. I'm now nearing 50% completion of my XL without any positive response resulting in requests to participate in the TA program. I only consider myself somewhat fortunate in having helped build three other airplanes and having a brother who has designed and built several aircraft as a resource. I'd love to be able to say something positive but despite my best efforts, I have not been able to attain any positive experience with EAA to date. I've all but given up at this point... -- Best Regards, Ray Montagne Cupertino, CA ================================================================================ Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL builder #4939 Construction Log & Photos: Build Status: Rudder completed Elevator Completed Stabilizer Completed Flaps Completed Ailerons Completed Right Wing Under Construction ================================================================================ ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:51 PM PST US From: "GW" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "GW" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > > I beg your pardon. What publication aren't you getting on time? Any magazine. Their fulfilment service sucks and needs replacing. > What do you gain with your comments without any positive suggestions for > improvement? There are many things that go on behind the scenes for your > benefit. > > What would you change or add? Do you think EAA would have the same power > with the FAA if it was several little fragmented groups instead of one large > cohesive group. Install a new leader into each position the requires a hat. IE Homebuilt, Ultralight, Warbird, Restoration, General Aviation. Each division becoming an independant organization to promote it's own special interest. Form an executive comittee to administer and function much like the legislative and executive branches of the US. The president could have a controlled amount of power but would not have unlimited priveledges. Each division would grow and instead of being fragmented groups would be composed of strong groups. Yet each belongs to a central comitiee (of all groups) This would cordinate and keep each from duplicating efforts and stepping on each others toes. On issues of common interest they could present a stronger united front. You might brouse the usenet and there you will find many who have gotten disgusted with the EAA. I am not talking about a few odd ducks, I refer to many, many responsible talented people. Some just cannot take critism, but if you don't think there is room for improvement... you just have not looked at the orginazation as many others see it. > Incidentally, If you think we are leaving something out, you are more than > welcome to write on the topic. > > Cy Galley - life member, Chair; Emergency Aircraft Repair > Editor, EAA Safety Programs > cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "GW" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "GW" > > > > I joined the EAA in the '60's and it was a bunch of guys that loved > > homebuilt planes. Now the EAA is a money driven PAC (Political Action > > Committie) that tries to be all things to all airmen (which it cannot do). > > > > There needs to be seperate Associations for the many hats that EAA is > trying > > to wear. But, with Sport Pilot coming up the EAA will don yet another hat. > > They look sort of ridiculous with some many differnts hats,caps, fedoras > on > > their head all at once. Tom should have stayed with aerobatics. He does > not > > have the leadership ability of his father. > > > > Internally the place is a featherbed. They can not even get their > > publications out and delivered on time. > > > > GW > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > > > > > > In a message dated 5/17/2003 9:34:55 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > > > zodiacjeff@msn.com writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" > > > > > > > > Opened today's issue of EAA e-HOT LINE and read that eight more pilots > > have > > > > been selected to fly their states' flag to FFA as part of the "50 > Flags > > to > > > > Kitty Hawk" program. > > > > > > > > None of the eight are flying homebuilt a/c as part of this centennial > > > > celebration of the world's first homebuilt. Instead we have a Cessna > > 172, > > > > a Mooney, and a Skylane as part of the parade of a/c participating. > > > > > > > > Would seem to me that the organization that began its existence with > > > > interest in homebuilts and whose first name is "Experimental" might > want > > to > > > > pick some pilots and aircraft that reflect that interest. > > > > > > > > Yes, I applied to the program, and no, I wasn't selected to be the > > > > Pennsylvania pilot; maybe that explains my dissatisfaction. The > > "roots" > > > > of EAA (the Chapters) may still grow in the garages and workshops of > its > > > > members, but the national organization seems to be lured by the big > > money > > > > of interests like Ford and Eclipse. > > > > > > > > My grumpy two-cents worth.jeff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AMEN to all that. It has turned into the Poberancy's private assoc. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:36 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More EAA ? (Morse code) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa According to http://www.soton.ac.uk/~scp93ch/morse/ this means: WHY? WHO IS LISTENING? M > Sorry, I don't read Morse code. Amateur Radio is about the only group I've > not joined. > > Cy Galley - MVR-AACA www.aaca.org/mvr > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More EAA ? > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: ac6qj@earthlink.net > > > > *-- **** -*-- **--** > > > > *-- **** --- ** *** *-** ** *** - * -* ** -* --* **--** > > -- ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:59:46 PM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Zenith-List: To whom do we comment? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" Cy, >Beat you to it! Glad I'm not the only person that thought the EAA should do >what they can to have experimentals represented. Could you tell US where to sent comments? Name and their position in the EAA. E-mailaddress? As far as this homebuilder is concerned, ONLY experimentals and restorations should be chosen. Regards Jeff do not archive ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:15 PM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Southwest Regional Fly-In --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" >There were somewhere around 200 homebuilts and restorations to see, but not a >single Zenith. The most popular kits were RV's. Joe, This is not a rational answer but the fact that you don't see many is one of the reasons I chose the 601. If you show up in an RV you're one of many. Show up in a 601 and then go stand along the sidelines. People will begin to gravitate toward it and when you go over you'll hear comments of "cute" and "something I could build." Happens all the time. Wayne Beattie told me this and his words ring true every time it's parked somewhere. Tailwinds jeff do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:36 PM PST US From: "Brian Caithcart" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601HD real world cruise speed --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brian Caithcart" Kelly Thanks for the heads up about the two blade warp drive. Many of the faster corvair powered planes are using the 3 blade warp. My application will be turning the prop at 2700 RPM at cruise in a direct drive configuration. Quite a bit faster than the stratus. William Wynne (The Corvair Authority) also happens to be a warp drive dealer. I will get his advice before I buy a prop. The warp drive is the prop of choice for the corvair. Brian Caithcart Saskatoon Sask. CH601HD/corvair >>FWIW Warp won't even sell me a two blade prop for my 601. The Darrel said >>I >must use the three blade prop for my engine & plane combo because the two >blades wouldn't have enough surface area to do the job. > >Kelly >601 Stratus HD > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:45 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" There are about 5 divisions at the present time doing essentially what you suggest. HG is responsible for the Vintage (restoration) with their own directors. There is a WarBird division with their own set of directors. Homebuilders are going to be split in two when the Sport Pilot comes on board which will replace the Experimenter. Presently there are two council's there. They are the home builder's council and the ultralight council. There is the IAC with their division. In addition there is a government relations programs which deals with the FAA and the problems they create. Earl Lawrence is slowly getting the FAA to be helpful instead of a hindrance. How? By teaching courses to the FAA personnel on the homebuilding and aging aircraft. For example when I need information or help with Transitional Training Waivers, I call Jan Streblow. Bob Mackey is responsible for the Chapter programs. Now which magazine are you having troubles? With most problems you need to talk to the person in charge. This I can do. But I'll need a name to go with GW. I agree with you that there is always room for improvement even with a quality organization such as the EAA. Knowing some of the inside workings of the EAA, they will try their very best to rectify any problem. First, generalities don't work. You have to tell them the details. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh EAA Chapter 75 Rock Island, Illinois Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "GW" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "GW" > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cy Galley" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > > > > I beg your pardon. What publication aren't you getting on time? > > Any magazine. Their fulfilment service sucks and needs replacing. > > > What do you gain with your comments without any positive suggestions for > > improvement? There are many things that go on behind the scenes for your > > benefit. > > > > What would you change or add? Do you think EAA would have the same power > > with the FAA if it was several little fragmented groups instead of one > large > > cohesive group. > > Install a new leader into each position the requires a hat. IE Homebuilt, > Ultralight, Warbird, Restoration, General Aviation. Each division becoming > an independant organization to promote it's own special interest. Form an > executive comittee to administer and function much like the legislative and > executive branches of the US. The president could have a controlled amount > of power but would not have unlimited priveledges. Each division would grow > and instead of being fragmented groups would be composed of strong groups. > Yet each belongs to a central comitiee (of all groups) This would cordinate > and keep each from duplicating efforts and stepping on each others toes. On > issues of common interest they could present a stronger united front. > > You might brouse the usenet and there you will find many who have gotten > disgusted with the EAA. I am not talking about a few odd ducks, I refer to > many, many responsible talented people. > > Some just cannot take critism, but if you don't think there is room for > improvement... you just have not looked at the orginazation as many others > see it. > > > Incidentally, If you think we are leaving something out, you are more than > > welcome to write on the topic. > > > > Cy Galley - life member, Chair; Emergency Aircraft Repair > > Editor, EAA Safety Programs > > cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "GW" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "GW" > > > > > > I joined the EAA in the '60's and it was a bunch of guys that loved > > > homebuilt planes. Now the EAA is a money driven PAC (Political Action > > > Committie) that tries to be all things to all airmen (which it cannot > do). > > > > > > There needs to be seperate Associations for the many hats that EAA is > > trying > > > to wear. But, with Sport Pilot coming up the EAA will don yet another > hat. > > > They look sort of ridiculous with some many differnts hats,caps, fedoras > > on > > > their head all at once. Tom should have stayed with aerobatics. He does > > not > > > have the leadership ability of his father. > > > > > > Internally the place is a featherbed. They can not even get their > > > publications out and delivered on time. > > > > > > GW > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > > > To: > > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > > > > > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > > > > > > > > In a message dated 5/17/2003 9:34:55 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > > > > zodiacjeff@msn.com writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" > > > > > > > > > > Opened today's issue of EAA e-HOT LINE and read that eight more > pilots > > > have > > > > > been selected to fly their states' flag to FFA as part of the "50 > > Flags > > > to > > > > > Kitty Hawk" program. > > > > > > > > > > None of the eight are flying homebuilt a/c as part of this > centennial > > > > > celebration of the world's first homebuilt. Instead we have a > Cessna > > > 172, > > > > > a Mooney, and a Skylane as part of the parade of a/c participating. > > > > > > > > > > Would seem to me that the organization that began its existence with > > > > > interest in homebuilts and whose first name is "Experimental" might > > want > > > to > > > > > pick some pilots and aircraft that reflect that interest. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I applied to the program, and no, I wasn't selected to be the > > > > > Pennsylvania pilot; maybe that explains my dissatisfaction. The > > > "roots" > > > > > of EAA (the Chapters) may still grow in the garages and workshops of > > its > > > > > members, but the national organization seems to be lured by the big > > > money > > > > > of interests like Ford and Eclipse. > > > > > > > > > > My grumpy two-cents worth.jeff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AMEN to all that. It has turned into the Poberancy's private assoc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:52 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: To whom do we comment? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Might try bwarner@eaa.org I generally send my comments and questions to another personal friend at govt@eaa.org as a work closely with government programs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Zenith-List: To whom do we comment? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" > > Cy, > > >Beat you to it! Glad I'm not the only person that thought the EAA should do > >what they can to have experimentals represented. > > Could you tell US where to sent comments? Name and their position in the > EAA. E-mailaddress? As far as this homebuilder is concerned, ONLY > experimentals and restorations should be chosen. > > Regards Jeff do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:20 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" I also work as unpaid editor for the Bellanca-Champion Type Club. If you think that EAA's fulfillment service sucks and needs replacing, You are talking about the United States Postal Service. The USPS LOST the Bellanca-Champion newsletters. ALL of them. We had to re-print, and re-mail one entire issue... AT OUR EXPENSE. That's right, at our expense, even though the postal service signed our newsletter as received. So then our members got 2 copies a week apart and over 10 weeks late. You are right, their service sucks. That is your United States Monopoly Postal Service. Neither the Bellanca-Champion Club nor the EAA has much control over that organization. We all suffer by their hand. Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion Club Newsletter Editor & EAA TC www.bellanca-championclub.com Actively supporting Aeroncas ----- Original Message ----- From: "GW" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "GW" > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cy Galley" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > > > > I beg your pardon. What publication aren't you getting on time? > > Any magazine. Their fulfilment service sucks and needs replacing. > > > What do you gain with your comments without any positive suggestions for > > improvement? There are many things that go on behind the scenes for your > > benefit. > > > > What would you change or add? Do you think EAA would have the same power > > with the FAA if it was several little fragmented groups instead of one > large > > cohesive group. > > Install a new leader into each position the requires a hat. IE Homebuilt, > Ultralight, Warbird, Restoration, General Aviation. Each division becoming > an independant organization to promote it's own special interest. Form an > executive comittee to administer and function much like the legislative and > executive branches of the US. The president could have a controlled amount > of power but would not have unlimited priveledges. Each division would grow > and instead of being fragmented groups would be composed of strong groups. > Yet each belongs to a central comitiee (of all groups) This would cordinate > and keep each from duplicating efforts and stepping on each others toes. On > issues of common interest they could present a stronger united front. > > You might brouse the usenet and there you will find many who have gotten > disgusted with the EAA. I am not talking about a few odd ducks, I refer to > many, many responsible talented people. > > Some just cannot take critism, but if you don't think there is room for > improvement... you just have not looked at the orginazation as many others > see it. > > > Incidentally, If you think we are leaving something out, you are more than > > welcome to write on the topic. > > > > Cy Galley - life member, Chair; Emergency Aircraft Repair > > Editor, EAA Safety Programs > > cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "GW" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "GW" > > > > > > I joined the EAA in the '60's and it was a bunch of guys that loved > > > homebuilt planes. Now the EAA is a money driven PAC (Political Action > > > Committie) that tries to be all things to all airmen (which it cannot > do). > > > > > > There needs to be seperate Associations for the many hats that EAA is > > trying > > > to wear. But, with Sport Pilot coming up the EAA will don yet another > hat. > > > They look sort of ridiculous with some many differnts hats,caps, fedoras > > on > > > their head all at once. Tom should have stayed with aerobatics. He does > > not > > > have the leadership ability of his father. > > > > > > Internally the place is a featherbed. They can not even get their > > > publications out and delivered on time. > > > > > > GW > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > > > To: > > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > > > > > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > > > > > > > > In a message dated 5/17/2003 9:34:55 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > > > > zodiacjeff@msn.com writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" > > > > > > > > > > Opened today's issue of EAA e-HOT LINE and read that eight more > pilots > > > have > > > > > been selected to fly their states' flag to FFA as part of the "50 > > Flags > > > to > > > > > Kitty Hawk" program. > > > > > > > > > > None of the eight are flying homebuilt a/c as part of this > centennial > > > > > celebration of the world's first homebuilt. Instead we have a > Cessna > > > 172, > > > > > a Mooney, and a Skylane as part of the parade of a/c participating. > > > > > > > > > > Would seem to me that the organization that began its existence with > > > > > interest in homebuilts and whose first name is "Experimental" might > > want > > > to > > > > > pick some pilots and aircraft that reflect that interest. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I applied to the program, and no, I wasn't selected to be the > > > > > Pennsylvania pilot; maybe that explains my dissatisfaction. The > > > "roots" > > > > > of EAA (the Chapters) may still grow in the garages and workshops of > > its > > > > > members, but the national organization seems to be lured by the big > > > money > > > > > of interests like Ford and Eclipse. > > > > > > > > > > My grumpy two-cents worth.jeff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AMEN to all that. It has turned into the Poberancy's private assoc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:22 PM PST US From: "Matthew P. Cummings" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More EAA ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matthew P. Cummings" On Sun, 18 May 2003, Cy Galley wrote: > Sorry, I don't read Morse code. Amateur Radio is about the only group I've > not joined. He said, I don't read it as well as I listen to it, but it should be; Why? Who is listening? -- Matthew P. Cummings 1974 Cessna 150L N10667 Moberly, MO (MBY) ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:08 PM PST US From: Elwood140@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: EAA Bashing --> Zenith-List message posted by: Elwood140@aol.com List: Isn't it about time to return the soap box to those who would enjoy hearing about building Zenith airplanes? Enough! Save your rhetoric for someplace else. Regards, Larry Wood ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:03 PM PST US From: "Greg Ferris" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Greg Ferris" I too have been disappointed with the local chapters of EAA that I've visited. The vast majority of the members are flying certified aircraft, and there is hardly ever any discussion about building. That's why I have pretty much stopped going to meetings. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Walker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" > > Interestingly enough our local chapter has 15 or 20 members and no home > builders. I gave them a program a few years ago and was to find little > interest in homebuilt aircraft. None of the homebuilders around here are > members. hmmmm Don Walker HDS do not archive. > > > >From: Benford2@aol.com > >Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > >Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 23:53:05 EDT > > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > > > >In a message dated 5/17/2003 9:34:55 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > >zodiacjeff@msn.com writes: > > > > > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" > > > > > > Opened today's issue of EAA e-HOT LINE and read that eight more pilots > >have > > > been selected to fly their states' flag to FFA as part of the "50 Flags > >to > > > Kitty Hawk" program. > > > > > > None of the eight are flying homebuilt a/c as part of this centennial > > > celebration of the world's first homebuilt. Instead we have a Cessna > >172, > > > a Mooney, and a Skylane as part of the parade of a/c participating. > > > > > > Would seem to me that the organization that began its existence with > > > interest in homebuilts and whose first name is "Experimental" might want > >to > > > pick some pilots and aircraft that reflect that interest. > > > > > > Yes, I applied to the program, and no, I wasn't selected to be the > > > Pennsylvania pilot; maybe that explains my dissatisfaction. The > >"roots" > > > of EAA (the Chapters) may still grow in the garages and workshops of its > > > members, but the national organization seems to be lured by the big > >money > > > of interests like Ford and Eclipse. > > > > > > My grumpy two-cents worth.jeff > > > > > > > > > >AMEN to all that. It has turned into the Poberancy's private assoc. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:32 PM PST US From: "The Meiste's" Subject: Zenith-List: Prop --> Zenith-List message posted by: "The Meiste's" Brian, I rate Warp Drive right up there with ZAC, both very good companies to deal with. Best of luck with your project, & keep us posted how things turn out for you. Kelly The warp drive is the prop of choice for the corvair. > > Brian Caithcart > Saskatoon Sask. > CH601HD/corvair ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:38 PM PST US From: Fred Poor Subject: Zenith-List: EAA sucks --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Poor I belong to the EAA but agree with all the negative stuff on this site, it is true--- The EAA doesn't give a damn about the person scratch building ( or otherwise) a homebuild airplane. All they give a shit about is MONEY and airplanes that cost megabucks--- I told Paul this also-- doesn't amount to shit. I will not be re-newing my membership this time around, and will still belong to the AOPA---- "fred" __________________________________ http://search.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:31 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" An EAA chapter only does want the members want to do. Chapter 75 has about 10 RVs, some flying, some in progress, most championship caliber. We've built several Long Ezes and Vari Eze. In fact, the last Long Ez just won Reserve Grand Champion at Sun 'n Fun this Spring. Several StarDusters, about 10 AirBikes with 3 finished and flown. We have a couple of Zenith 601s as another builder just signed in tonight. A Lancair 320 and two Hatz biplanes and a Murphy Rebel. We have several people restoring and flying Navions. We just did a B17 tour stop and we could not have done it without our members that always step up to the plate when needed. One thing that makes building easy in our chapter is the extensive tool library we have built up over the years. We have about 5 tech counselors. A qualified flight advisor that we sent to school at our expense. I don't believe our chapter is any different than many other chapters that are active and provide activities like project reviews where we go out an look over a project when it is too cold to fly. Involve the families and wives. Invite the CAP. Go on tours of the Control Towers or ultra-light factories. Have fly-outs. Have fly-in potlucks. Have activities that involves the members. It may not work, so try it a again. Have a young Eagle Rally. Our Young Eagle coordinator has posters, pins, balsa guiders that he gives out to the kids. You only get out of anything what you put into it. If you sit back and want entertainment, stay by your TV. But you will miss the fun of being involved with other's projects. The fun of showing another member one of you hard earned skills. The fun of giving a kid his first plane ride. The fun of helping veterans remember the B-17. The fun of sending a kid to the EAA Air Academy. The great joy of seeing your Daughter graduate from the Air Force Academy with honors. These are the things that makes EAA work for me and for my fellow members of Chapter 75. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Ferris" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Greg Ferris" > > I too have been disappointed with the local chapters of EAA that I've > visited. The vast majority of the members are flying certified aircraft, > and there is hardly ever any discussion about building. That's why I have > pretty much stopped going to meetings. > > Greg > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Walker" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" > > > > Interestingly enough our local chapter has 15 or 20 members and no home > > builders. I gave them a program a few years ago and was to find little > > interest in homebuilt aircraft. None of the homebuilders around here are > > members. hmmmm Don Walker HDS do not archive. > > > > > > >From: Benford2@aol.com > > >Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? > > >Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 23:53:05 EDT > > > > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > > > > > >In a message dated 5/17/2003 9:34:55 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > > >zodiacjeff@msn.com writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" > > > > > > > > Opened today's issue of EAA e-HOT LINE and read that eight more pilots > > >have > > > > been selected to fly their states' flag to FFA as part of the "50 > Flags > > >to > > > > Kitty Hawk" program. > > > > > > > > None of the eight are flying homebuilt a/c as part of this centennial > > > > celebration of the world's first homebuilt. Instead we have a Cessna > > >172, > > > > a Mooney, and a Skylane as part of the parade of a/c participating. > > > > > > > > Would seem to me that the organization that began its existence with > > > > interest in homebuilts and whose first name is "Experimental" might > want > > >to > > > > pick some pilots and aircraft that reflect that interest. > > > > > > > > Yes, I applied to the program, and no, I wasn't selected to be the > > > > Pennsylvania pilot; maybe that explains my dissatisfaction. The > > >"roots" > > > > of EAA (the Chapters) may still grow in the garages and workshops of > its > > > > members, but the national organization seems to be lured by the big > > >money > > > > of interests like Ford and Eclipse. > > > > > > > > My grumpy two-cents worth.jeff > > > > > > > > > > > > > >AMEN to all that. It has turned into the Poberancy's private assoc. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:36 PM PST US From: Robert Hillebrand Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EAA sucks --> Zenith-List message posted by: Robert Hillebrand give that man a big cigar. I totaly agree with you. I have been building from plans a 701 since 1993. I used to belong to EAA back then and for a total of 5 years I could never get anyone from any chapter to come by and see my 701. They always had some sort of excuse. I don't belong to Eaa now and I am not to far from finishing my project. Hope they don't have anything to say about the end result......Bo Fred Poor wrote:--> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Poor I belong to the EAA but agree with all the negative stuff on this site, it is true--- The EAA doesn't give a damn about the person scratch building ( or otherwise) a homebuild airplane. All they give a shit about is MONEY and airplanes that cost megabucks--- I told Paul this also-- doesn't amount to shit. I will not be re-newing my membership this time around, and will still belong to the AOPA---- "fred" __________________________________ http://search.yahoo.com --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? From: wizard-24@juno.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > I myself am tired of attending Chapter meetings with a 10 minute > agenda with no content, the sole result being eating cookies and drinking > coffee I can't resist throwing im a quick comment on this myself (I promise not to mention anything about pigs with or without lipstick). This is the very reason why I elected NOT to join the local EAA Chapter (I am a National member however, mostly to gain access to the good information on their web site). I visited a couple of times at the local meetings, and found that the whole thing was more about anything else BUT building airplanes. I agree that the EAA may be losing touch with its roots....even though they still do provide a lobbying voice for important matters relating to aviation. Perhaps local chapters need to step back and look at their respective organizations from a distance and realize why they exist in the first place? By the way, I admit this may not be the case with some chapters...just my impression of the only one I've been subjected to. Mike Fortunato do not archive The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:08 PM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EAA Bashing --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com In a message dated 5/18/2003 7:10:38 PM Mountain Daylight Time, Elwood140@aol.com writes: > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Elwood140@aol.com > > List: Isn't it about time to return the soap box to those who would enjoy > hearing about building Zenith airplanes? Enough! Save your rhetoric for > someplace else. > > Regards, > > Larry Wood > That will work for me. Ben Haas N801BH. DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:17 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Southwest Regional Fly-In --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Why we chossed Zenith? ...in fact we are finishing our 701 and we will be reciving our 601 XL kit by June... Another good thing about the Zenith aircrafts is the possibility to land in shorter grass strips than the RV's (or any similar airplane). Remember higher cruise speed goes by the hand with higher landing speed and higher mantainance bills... I havent got a ride in a RV (ther are only 2 of them flying, I am aware here in Mexico) but a friend has a Mooney (sp?) and he only visits our 2,100 ft long (4,995 ft ASL) grass strip by car, localy there are only two airports: the international airport and our grass strip, and we are 6 million people in the City. With a 601 XL you have more chances to visit little airports, but also have enough cruise speed to get there without getting to tired. A good reading (not Zenith related) will be the article in Sport Aviation (April 2003) about Earl Luce, he built the replica of Steve Wittman's "Buttercup", and he also owns the faster Tailwind... His wife prefers the slower (145 mph) Buttercup that can land where they used to fly in their Cub and Taylorcraft... Incidently, read the next article, is about a couple that built, own and really fly a RV-6A... They have logged 1,000 hrs in 23 months! They fly every week end, a wife we all dreamed, if you ask me. Our 701 is supposed to land everywhere, you read above here airports and surviving airstrips are scarse, we need "ultralight landing and take off performance" to enjoy flying around here, maybe a diferent scenario in you case, but having more options to visit and extra money for gas (saved from a faster plane) could make a diference... Saludos Gary Gower 701 912S Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico --- Pwalsh4539@aol.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Pwalsh4539@aol.com > > Build time and cost. Comparing a Zenith to an RV is comparing apples > to > oranges. Personally, as a first timer, I just thought (correctly, I > think) > that the 601 or 701 was a more realistic goal. It surely flies great > although > not fast, it is still on par speedwise with the 152s and 172s I was > used to > flying and is better in all other ways. > If you want a faster, more expensive plane with a much longer build > time, > opt for the RV. If you want a slower, less expensive, equally safe > plane with > a short build time, opt for the Zenith designs. > Of course, I have never built an RV so my opinion is somewhat > biased. > Patrick Walsh > 601 HD > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://search.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:09 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What Walmart tires? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Cy, Thank you for your expert opinion, I was thinking the same, but hold my opinion, as I had always flew ultralights (the 701 will be my first "real" airplane) and only had one "inconvenient" flat tire when landing, was not sure in the Zenith's range of landing speeds. Thanks one more time. Saludos Gary Gower do not archive --- Cy Galley wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > > Ken Brock was not killed due to the failure of the tailwheel. His > T-18 hit > a cement post but what killed him was the unsecured tool box that hit > him in > the head, not the loss of control, not the hitting of the cement > post. > Marie had little but a few bruises from the accident and is still > alive. > Point is that most tire blow outs are not as fatal. At the landing > speed of > a Zenith a blowout should be little more than an inconvenience. > > Cy Galley > Editor, EAA Safety Programs > cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Phil & Michele Miller" > To: > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: What Walmart tires? > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller" > > > > > Hi, Guys, > > > > Several years ago I worked as a tire salesman so have a little > working > > knowledge of tires although not of the aircraft variety. > > > > The "Not for Highway Use" designation relates mainly to the speed > that a > > wheelbarrow tire is designed to operate at. At highway speeds, > cornering > > (side) loads are much higher than the tire is designed for. There > are > > other considerations also such as rubber compound suitability the > > possibility of heat buildup. The risk of a blowout is real. Side > loads > > are certainly a significant factor to be considered for aircraft > tires. > > > > A blowout when tracking straight down the runway will cause a > sudden, > > large increase in rolling resistance on that side resulting in a > severe > > pull to that side which you may or mat not be able to counter with > > rudder/steering/differential braking. If it occurs during a muffed > > crosswind landing when tracking sideways, the wheel may dig in and > put > > enormous side load on the landing gear. The scenarios are easy to > > imagine - collapsed gear/prop strike/wing damage. > > > > I guess it's up to each aircraft owner to make the call as they see > fit > > but make sure you have all the information on which to make an > INFORMED > > decision. > > > > Here's a thought to end with: I understand that Ken Brock (of > gyroplane > > fame) died when landing a taildragger that swerved off the runway > into a > > tree when the tailwheel failed. As noted above, a blowout could > cause a > > similar accident. The right tires for the job are good insurance. > > > > Cheers, > > Phil Miller > > New Zealand > > (701 912S) > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of g t > > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What Walmart tires? > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: g t > > > > At least at one time, trailer tires had a stronger side wall > > construction due to the load and the bouncing of the load one can > get on > > highways. I do not know if this is true today anymore, but it > would be > > worth the research before one tries a trailer tire or a wheelbarrow > > tire. Others please post as I will if I find additonal > information. > > > > DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR AIRPLANE IF YOU BLOW A TIRE > ON > > LANDING????? > > > > > > Grant Corriveau wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > > > > > From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > > > > > There is logic here that says as the wheelbarrow tires are so > light > > > one could carry a spare in the tail behind the seats when heading > to > > > one of these places...Assuming you don't wreck the airframe if it > > > happened you would at least be able to get home. > > > > I've never been able to find a definitive answer to the 'not for > hiway > > use' wheelbarrow tire / trailer tire discussion...but I have a > theory > > that the trailer tire tread is 'hardened' in some way that makes it > > suitable for long hours of high speed running on ashphalt/pavement. > > > > The experience on this list with the original wheelbarrow tires > seems to > > bear this out. Those working from grass strips seem to get a lot > more > > use from these tires than those running on paved airports. > > > > And when you think of it, our aircraft don't spend enough time on > the > > ground to heat the tires up significantly, so I think it all comes > down > > to load capability more than tread wear, especially if you're not > always > > on the pavement. > > > > I'd like to get more technical information to affirm or refute my > > theory... if anyone finds a good 'tire' theory page on the net > > somewhere???.... > > > > -- > > Grant Corriveau > > C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://search.yahoo.com