Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:14 AM - Re: What Walmart tires? (Phil & Michele Miller)
2. 02:53 AM - First Flight (Chris Weber)
3. 05:30 AM - Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? (Aaron)
4. 05:37 AM - Re: First Flight (Fred or Sandy Hulen)
5. 05:58 AM - Re: First Flight (Ron DeWees)
6. 06:17 AM - Re: First Flight (Pwalsh4539@aol.com)
7. 06:55 AM - Why Zenith (Mark A. Wood)
8. 08:27 AM - Re: First Flight (ZodiacBuilder@aol.com)
9. 08:33 AM - Re: First Flight (owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com)
10. 08:38 AM - Re: Southwest Regional Fly-In (JNBOLDING1)
11. 08:51 AM - (charles.long@gm.com)
12. 10:23 AM - Re: (ZodiacBuilder@aol.com)
13. 11:24 AM - Re: What Walmart tires? Information on trailer tire (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
14. 01:01 PM - Vapour lock? (Dr. Perry Morrison)
15. 03:15 PM - Re: Vapour lock? (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
16. 04:08 PM - Re: Vapour lock? (Bryan Martin)
17. 04:14 PM - Re: Vapour lock? (Dave Austin)
18. 04:50 PM - my progress report (Flydog1966@aol.com)
19. 04:50 PM - Re: Vapour lock? (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
20. 05:04 PM - Re: Vapour lock? (wizard-24@juno.com)
21. 05:58 PM - Re: Vapour lock? (Cy Galley)
22. 06:01 PM - fuel system design...was Vapour lock? (Pwalsh4539@aol.com)
23. 06:48 PM - Re: fuel system design...was Vapour lock? (prm@softhome.net)
24. 07:42 PM - Re: Vapour lock? (Fred or Sandy Hulen)
25. 08:08 PM - Re: fuel system design...was Vapour lock? (Bryan Martin)
26. 08:17 PM - Re: fuel system design...was Vapour lock? (Bryan Martin)
27. 08:28 PM - Fw: Reality Check (David J. Dormer)
28. 08:41 PM - Re: Vapour lock? (Bryan Martin)
29. 08:49 PM - Re: Fw: Reality Check (Scott Laughlin)
30. 09:08 PM - Re: Vapour lock? (Bryan Martin)
31. 10:01 PM - Re: Fw: Reality Check (Bryan Martin)
32. 10:01 PM - Re: Fw: Reality Check (Randy Stout)
33. 10:29 PM - 4-point belts... (Jari.Kaija@pkcgroup.com)
34. 10:40 PM - CH801 scratch plans availability (scott heinzerling)
35. 11:08 PM - Re: 4-point belts... (Jim Frisby)
Message 1
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| Subject: | What Walmart tires? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller" <millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
Thanks, Cy. I stand corrected. (Do not archive)
Cheers,
Phil Miller
New Zealand
(701 912S)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cy Galley
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What Walmart tires?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Ken Brock was not killed due to the failure of the tailwheel. His T-18
hit a cement post but what killed him was the unsecured tool box that
hit him in the head, not the loss of control, not the hitting of the
cement post. Marie had little but a few bruises from the accident and is
still alive. Point is that most tire blow outs are not as fatal. At the
landing speed of a Zenith a blowout should be little more than an
inconvenience.
Cy Galley
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil & Michele Miller" <millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: What Walmart tires?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller"
<millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
>
> Hi, Guys,
>
> Several years ago I worked as a tire salesman so have a little working
> knowledge of tires although not of the aircraft variety.
>
> The "Not for Highway Use" designation relates mainly to the speed that
> a wheelbarrow tire is designed to operate at. At highway speeds,
> cornering
> (side) loads are much higher than the tire is designed for. There are
> other considerations also such as rubber compound suitability the
> possibility of heat buildup. The risk of a blowout is real. Side loads
> are certainly a significant factor to be considered for aircraft
tires.
>
> A blowout when tracking straight down the runway will cause a sudden,
> large increase in rolling resistance on that side resulting in a
> severe pull to that side which you may or mat not be able to counter
> with rudder/steering/differential braking. If it occurs during a
> muffed crosswind landing when tracking sideways, the wheel may dig in
> and put enormous side load on the landing gear. The scenarios are easy
> to imagine - collapsed gear/prop strike/wing damage.
>
> I guess it's up to each aircraft owner to make the call as they see
> fit but make sure you have all the information on which to make an
> INFORMED decision.
>
> Here's a thought to end with: I understand that Ken Brock (of
> gyroplane
> fame) died when landing a taildragger that swerved off the runway into
a
> tree when the tailwheel failed. As noted above, a blowout could cause
a
> similar accident. The right tires for the job are good insurance.
>
> Cheers,
> Phil Miller
> New Zealand
> (701 912S)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of g t
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What Walmart tires?
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: g t <wauwis2002@yahoo.com>
>
> At least at one time, trailer tires had a stronger side wall
> construction due to the load and the bouncing of the load one can get
> on highways. I do not know if this is true today anymore, but it
> would be worth the research before one tries a trailer tire or a
> wheelbarrow tire. Others please post as I will if I find additonal
> information.
>
> DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR AIRPLANE IF YOU BLOW A TIRE ON
> LANDING?????
>
>
> Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau
>
> > From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
>
> > There is logic here that says as the wheelbarrow tires are so light
> > one could carry a spare in the tail behind the seats when heading to
> > one of these places...Assuming you don't wreck the airframe if it
> > happened you would at least be able to get home.
>
> I've never been able to find a definitive answer to the 'not for hiway
> use' wheelbarrow tire / trailer tire discussion...but I have a theory
> that the trailer tire tread is 'hardened' in some way that makes it
> suitable for long hours of high speed running on ashphalt/pavement.
>
> The experience on this list with the original wheelbarrow tires seems
> to bear this out. Those working from grass strips seem to get a lot
> more use from these tires than those running on paved airports.
>
> And when you think of it, our aircraft don't spend enough time on the
> ground to heat the tires up significantly, so I think it all comes
> down to load capability more than tread wear, especially if you're not
> always on the pavement.
>
> I'd like to get more technical information to affirm or refute my
> theory... if anyone finds a good 'tire' theory page on the net
> somewhere???....
>
> --
> Grant Corriveau
> C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
> direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>
>
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 2
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chris Weber" <chrisoz@gmx.net>
Hello Listers,
today I took Zodiac 601 HD Special TD up for the first time. Everything went
well, though not without hitch.
The plane has several modifications, to note the main points: thicker
fuselage skins, a cockpit with windscreen, gullwing doors, a razor-back with
side windows, longer (6 inch) undercarriage legs, wider tyres, two leading
edge tanks of my own design, a BRS in the nose of the plane with steel
bridles runnig to the rear spar, and some other little things. I did not
consult Chris, as he is a buisy man and I was quite conservative in the
changes. No changes to flight surfaces nor geometry.
It is built from scratch, I did all the welding, exept the fuel tanks,
myself. Building time from spar to first flight 735 hours, from June 2002
until last week.
The problem I encountered on climbout was partial power loss from the EA 81.
This is fitted with two Bing-Carbs ala 912, and everything over 4700 rpm
suddenly started to run rough with a marked lack of performance. Climbed
like a dog, especially to my first Zodiac, 'Small and Humble', that went up
like a homesick angel at 1400 ftpm. As my current steed has a hole instead
of the VSI ( delivery problems, the old stary. What are they doing over
there in China?) there was no way of telling how slow I climbed, but it
couldn't have been more than 300 ftpm. At 300 ft I finaly dared to throttle
back some more, and at 4600 she started to run smooth as silk, climbed and
showed me close to 90 knots, tying in with the data from the GPS.
So, first things first, will have to crack that carby problem, have to cut
of the rudder pedals and make them longer, and that is basically it.
Happy, happy, happy, though, yes, it is never as good as the first time :-)
I was nervous, but a year ago with my first baby I was ready to lay down and
die!
Cheers from Downunder,
Chris
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Aaron" <agustafson@chartermi.net>
Just a note of good on EAA chapters. Our local chapter 439 recently had a
meeting at a members home to review his project. There were 11 members
present of which 8 had ongoing projects. The next and previous months were
also at members homes with projects. There is also a chapter project being
built in a nearby town. I'm happy!
Aaron
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Ferris" <ferret@wmtel.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where's the "Experimental" in EAA?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Greg Ferris" <ferret@wmtel.net>
>
> I too have been disappointed with the local chapters of EAA that I've
> visited. The vast majority of the members are flying certified aircraft,
> and there is hardly ever any discussion about building.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" <hulens61@birch.net>
> today I took Zodiac 601 HD Special TD up for the first time. Everything
went
> well, though not without hitch.
CONGRATULATIONS CHRIS!!!!! Awesome feeling isn't it?
Find out what the problem with partial power loss is, fix it, then go up
again,...and keep us posted.
Fred Hulen
601HDS, Jab 3300
do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Congratulations Chris,
It's great to hear from someone who gets off the ground with their plane. I
bet the carby problem will work out and you will be flying all over the
place in no time. Thanks for the report and we look forward to many more.
BTW, how does it handle as a tail dragger? MIne is a 601 HDS TD but won't
be in the air for a while yet.
Ron DeWees
Atlanta , Ga, USA
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Weber" <chrisoz@gmx.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: First Flight
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chris Weber" <chrisoz@gmx.net>
>
> Hello Listers,
>
> today I took Zodiac 601 HD Special TD up for the first time.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Pwalsh4539@aol.com
Congratulations on your flight!
Please keep us informed as to the carb problem/rpm loss. I had a similar
problem (with a 912) on takeoff a year and a half ago..however my engine quit
completely after about 5 seconds. At 100 feet there isnt even enough time to
get sweaty palms. Just react.I have never determined the problem and it has
not happened again, so I am always interested to hear about similar events.
Patrick Walsh
Message 7
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark A. Wood" <Mark.Wood@uvm.edu>
On the why Zenith question:
For me it was
1 KISS Keep It Simple S---- and the zenith wins in this
2 I work alone, no one to help buck rivets
3 cost the airframes are not that much different, but engines and
other things make a common RV much more expansive than a Zenith.
4 I plan to add floats and the 601 is a proven design to use with floats.
5 I live in New England and the distances are not great like in the west.
--
Mark Wood
Assistive Technology Consultant, VT I-Team
Center on Disability and Community Inclusion
University of Vermont
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ZodiacBuilder@aol.com
In a message dated 5/19/2003 5:54:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
chrisoz@gmx.net writes:
> Climbed
> like a dog, especially to my first Zodiac, 'Small and Humble', that went up
> like a homesick angel at 1400 ftpm. As my current steed has a hole instead
> of the VSI ( delivery problems, the old stary. What are they doing over
> there in China?) there was no way of telling how slow I climbed, but it
> couldn't have been more than 300 ftpm. At 300 ft I finaly dared to throttle
> back some more, and at 4600 she started to run smooth as silk, climbed and
> showed me close to 90 knots, tying in with the data from the GPS.
>
Chris,
I also have a heavy hds, and it really is a dog in climb. I have electric
flaps, and tried to put 10 degs of flaps in hopes of getting a bit more
climb. I sill had no luck.
When I fly solo, it climbs at 500fpm. Fully loaded, it climbs at about
250fpm.
The Zodiac is not a very aerodynamically clean airplane. That wing is way
too fat.
Congrats on your first flight...!
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
--> Zenith-List message posted by:
In a message dated 5/19/2003 8:27:40 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
ZodiacBuilder@aol.com writes:
> The Zodiac is not a very aerodynamically clean airplane. That wing is way
> too fat.
>
Does this come as a very big surprise to anyone building and HD or and HDS,
Hello?!? Many others on the list report climb performance in the area of
1,000 fpm or greater, so me thinks the problem is in the heavy airplane (or
in my case heavy builder, but I digress) not the "fat wing". Granted cruise
speed is not as advertised, but climb performance has always met or exceeded
expectaions of most the builders I have seen reporting here.
Steve Freeman
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Southwest Regional Fly-In |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "JNBOLDING1" <JNBOLDING1@mail.ev1.net>
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
>
>
>>There were somewhere around 200 homebuilts and restorations to see, but not
>a
>>single Zenith. The most popular kits were RV's.
>
>Joe,
>
>This is not a rational answer but the fact that you don't see many is one of
>the reasons I chose the 601. If you show up in an RV you're one of many.
>Show up in a 601 and then go stand along the sidelines. People will begin
>to gravitate toward it and when you go over you'll hear comments of "cute"
>and "something I could build." Happens all the time.
>
>Wayne Beattie told me this and his words ring true every time it's parked
>somewhere.
>
Isn't the phrase " what goes around comes around" prophetic!! I built the 2nd
RV in Texas and for a long time was the only one to show up at a lot of fly ins
Was always surrounded by Pitts, T-18s, Cassuits, Jr Aces, Tailwinds etc
and always drew a crowd. One year at Oshkosh there were only three of us but
Van was the outcast then as his design didn't have two wings or wasn't fabric
covered. My how times have changed. Hope to repeat the performance with my
701 although there are a few of those already flying in Tex now. LOW&SLOW John
do not archive
Message 11
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05/19/2003 11:51:35 AM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: charles.long@gm.com
This is a flight report from fellow HDS builder and friend Mike
Mossman, reprinted by permission out of the May EAA Chapter 1311
newsletter. Thought you would enjoy it. I have also flown Ray's plane &
it's a beauty! Thanks Ray for sharing your plane with us:
Flying Report
This newsletter editor can always allocate "extra" space for flying
reports. Since none was submitted by publication deadline, I offer the
following first-hand experience:
Friend and fellow Zenair CH 601 HDS builder Ray Ridenour of Elkhart flew
his handiwork into the Fly-In for the promise of a little adventure and
lunch. Ridenour reported that the light Zenair got bounced around a bit
under the cumulous clouds for the trip south, but did enjoy a 15-knot
tailwind, making the trip in about one hour and fifteen minutes.
Ridenoour recently replaced his old Jabiru engine with a new version of
the Jabiru 2200 engine. He is getting the bugs out of the current
installation, and reports that the airframe now has more than 350 hours
of flight time, including trips to Oshkosh and Florida.
Shortly after landing Ray offered me a ride in his airplane. It had been
four-and-a-half months since my last plane ride, and more than a year
since I flew a Zenair, so I didn't have to think about the answer. Ray
is quite a bit shorter than me and built the plane to accomodate his
needs. After getting in we determined that I would have more headroom by
sitting a bit lower in the saddle so he pulled the upholstery out of the
passenger side. Even though I was sitting on bare metal, it was
reasonably comfortable for the short flight. I had no trouble seeing
over the panel, and of course, any view through a bubble is panoramic.
Ray let me try the ground steering via the directly-connected nosewheel
and rudder pedals. As I am used to the sloppy linkage of a Cessna I was
overcorrecting way too soon and taxied everywhere except along the
centerline. Eventually, I recalled my Piper Colt and Cherokee experience
and brought the plane in line.
Once aligned for takeoff, Ridenour took control. In just a few seconds
and a few hundred feet of ground roll, the Zenair rotated and lifted off
easily. Ridenour piloted it to pattern altitude and headed northwest
past Danville for a little air work.
"Want to try it?", was all it took. I grabbed the center yoke with my
left hand, poked my feet back onto the pedals and tried to get the feel
of the airplane in the rough air. Not having much right-seat piloting
experience, it took me a bit of time to get oriented to the controls and
my eyes aligned with the horizon, but once I had it sorted out the fun
began. Ray encouraged me to put it through a few manuevers, so I yanked
and banked.
My last four years of flying experience have been devoted almost
exclusively to piloting my stodgy old Cessna 150, so the nimbleness of
this little sports plane was like chugging a few of cups of hot Java.
Only a couple pounds of stick force cranked the plane to a 45+ degree
bank, and almost an instant later it could be banked 45 degrees the
other way. In my 150 it felt like I had to bend the wings off to
practice S-turns on a road. No so with this airplane. With its shorter
wingspan and 8-foot ailerons it darts around quickly. Steeply banked
turns under a bubble canopy are a great experience. Although rated at 6
+/- G's, the Zenair isn't intended for aerobatics but the view of
"almost upside-down" is exhiliarating.
At cruise speed Ray's airplane showed no adverse yaw in turns. Even in a
steep bank, the ball in his electric turn coordinator stayed centered
with feet flat on the floor. The pitch control felt normal for my
low-time hands, and it is trimmed by an electric control. We cruised
along at an indicated 110 mph or so, but Ray thinks his airspeed reads a
bit fast.
All too soon we headed back to 2R2 for some photos and lunch. Once in
the pattern Ray again took control and brought it in for the final
approach. With no flaps, the Zenair sinks quickly when the power is cut.
After a nice, three-chirp landing we put the seat cushion back into
place and headed for the lunch line.
All-in-all, the Zenair is a nice, fun airplane, suitable for many
pilots. If you need a showplane, something fast, or maybe an instrument
platform then it isn't for you. It is a safe and comfortable cruiser
with decent range, reasonable speed, good economy, great visibility and
is very easy to build. When mine is finished and the test hours are
completed, let's go flying!
Message 12
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: ZodiacBuilder@aol.com
In a message dated 5/19/2003 11:52:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
charles.long@gm.com writes:
> All-in-all, the Zenair is a nice, fun airplane, suitable for many
> pilots. If you need a showplane, something fast, or maybe an instrument
> platform then it isn't for you. It is a safe and comfortable cruiser
> with decent range, reasonable speed, good economy, great visibility and
> is very easy to build. When mine is finished and the test hours are
> completed, let's go flying!
>
Very good summery.....
Do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | What Walmart tires? Information on trailer tire |
design.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Hey Don,
When you say the Carlyle tires don't last as long, are you specifically
referring to the wheelbarrow items or do you mean the trailer tires don't
last long either?
Say, what do we have fitted on our Zod's today?..I have the flat treaded ZAC
items, who are they made by and are they available?...Mine lasted almost 300
hours 'cos I'm such a good pilot....:)
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Walker [mailto:dwalk3dw@msn.com]
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What Walmart tires? Information on trailer tire
design.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" <dwalk3dw@msn.com>
To be frank, Frank, I have had no hesitation in using the wheel barrow
tires since they were provided with the kit. However, the Carlyle tires do
not last as long, and I did forego landing on one strip that presented a
strength question due to large gravel.
We have discussed this before, but there are scooter tires available that
have the strength and are rounded rather than flat on the tread. I think I
will use them next so I don't have to change tires so often and can land
anywhere. They look tough. The Carlyle tires seem to have a softer tread
that wears more quickly than Cheng Shin, but neither of these has a strong
side wall. (Well, there go the softer landings of the ol' wheel barow
tires.) Don Walker HDS
do not archive
>From: g t <wauwis2002@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What Walmart tires? Information on trailer
>tire
>design.
>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 06:49:56 -0700 (PDT)
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: g t <wauwis2002@yahoo.com>
>
>This link will get you additonal information on trailer and passenger
>tire
>designs. Nothing about wheelbarrow tires though.
>
>Tom
>
>http://www.championtrailers.com/tire_art.html
>
>g t <wauwis2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: g t
>
>At least at one time, trailer tires had a stronger side wall
>construction
>due to the load and the bouncing of the load one can get on highways. I do
>not know if this is true today anymore, but it would be worth the research
>before one tries a trailer tire or a wheelbarrow tire. Others please post
>as I will if I find additonal information.
>
>DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR AIRPLANE IF YOU BLOW A TIRE ON
>LANDING?????
>
>
>Grant Corriveau wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau
>
> > From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
>
> > There is logic here that says as the wheelbarrow tires are so light
> > one could carry a spare in the tail behind the seats when heading to
> > one of these places...Assuming you don't wreck the airframe if it
> > happened you would at least be able to get home.
>
>I've never been able to find a definitive answer to the 'not for hiway
>use' wheelbarrow tire / trailer tire discussion...but I have a theory
>that the trailer tire tread is 'hardened' in some way that makes it
>suitable for long hours of high speed running on ashphalt/pavement.
>
>The experience on this list with the original wheelbarrow tires seems
>to bear this out. Those working from grass strips seem to get a lot
>more use from these tires than those running on paved airports.
>
>And when you think of it, our aircraft don't spend enough time on the
>ground
>to heat the tires up significantly, so I think it all comes down to load
>capability more than tread wear, especially if you're not always on the
>pavement.
>
>I'd like to get more technical information to affirm or refute my
>theory... if anyone finds a good 'tire' theory page on the net
>somewhere???....
>
>--
>Grant Corriveau
>C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
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Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison" <prm@softhome.net>
I'd appreciate some comments on the following:
My original fuel set up on my 912 was- 60L header tank down to facet boost
pump on
inner fire wall with metal finger fuel filter as supplied. Fuel line then
goes
thru furewall to gascolator and on to engine. Fuel flow from the drain on
the gascolator has always been very good.
Since I wasn't happy with an opaque fuel filter I removed the metal fuel
filter
on the inlet side of the facet pump and fitted a plastic, transparent fuel
filter
immediately under the header tank.
On a flight up to 4,000'AMSL I notice the fuel filter was almost empty.
Fuel was still in the line and I could see the fuel dribbling in at the top.
Levelling off at cruise didn't change the situation but I was close to home
and on descent noticed the filter filling up. At circuit altitude the filter
was
almost full. On the ground it was completely full.
Fuel flow at the gascolator was fine. Fuel cap vents were fine. I opened
these
up a tad and installed a glass in-line boat filter in place of the plastic
Ryco one.
Next flight, same story.
I thought about pressurising the tank slightly with a tiny scoop on the fuel
cap,
but instead went back to the old setup which never missed a beat in 140 hrs
and flights up to 8,000.
I run unleaded fuel. Am I right in thinking these filters are acting as an
expansion
chamber. Ground air temps were in the low 30 deg C. I can't imagine this is
simply the engine outstripping the fuel flow since I did tests at cruise rpm
and
the filter never filled again. Even high throttle runs at low altitude did
not reproduce
the effect- it is clearly related to altitude.
Ideas
Perry Morrison
Message 15
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Hi Perry,
I get a lot of flaming when talking about potential vapour lock and fuel
system deasign but here goes...
Essentially fuel will boil because of reduced pressure (i.e sucking on fuel,
either trying to suck it up hill or thro a restriction) and/or higher temps.
Warming the fuel increases its vapour pressure. If your suck pressure drops
below the vapour pressure, the fuel will boil, vapour lock your pump fuel
flow stops.
It is quite possible you have a partial block of your tank strainer or the
in line filter and temps around 30C could be partially boiling the fuel in
your filter housing.
Of course having the filter between the tank and pump is asking for it, if
the filter gets partially blocked you could end up in real trouble.
I would put the filter between the Facet and the engine. At least then you
can be assured that you got at least 5psi to overcome any filter blockage.
How about pulling out the finger strainer to see if it has any crud on it?
I don't have a header tank but in theory the filler cap should be in a high
pressure area. Assuming this to be true (others will confirm this I'm sure)
then you must have a blockage and or vapour in the fuel filter.
If you have any HVAC techs where you work they can loan you a solid state
low pressure meter that you can check the differential pressure between the
cap location and the static port. I usually put a T into my static line and
run the hi pressure port to wherever I need to measure...In the vicinity of
the filler cap in your case.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. Perry Morrison [mailto:prm@softhome.net]
Subject: Zenith-List: Vapour lock?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison"
--> <prm@softhome.net>
I'd appreciate some comments on the following:
My original fuel set up on my 912 was- 60L header tank down to facet boost
pump on inner fire wall with metal finger fuel filter as supplied. Fuel line
then goes thru furewall to gascolator and on to engine. Fuel flow from the
drain on the gascolator has always been very good.
Since I wasn't happy with an opaque fuel filter I removed the metal fuel
filter on the inlet side of the facet pump and fitted a plastic, transparent
fuel filter immediately under the header tank.
On a flight up to 4,000'AMSL I notice the fuel filter was almost empty. Fuel
was still in the line and I could see the fuel dribbling in at the top.
Levelling off at cruise didn't change the situation but I was close to home
and on descent noticed the filter filling up. At circuit altitude the filter
was almost full. On the ground it was completely full.
Fuel flow at the gascolator was fine. Fuel cap vents were fine. I opened
these up a tad and installed a glass in-line boat filter in place of the
plastic Ryco one. Next flight, same story.
I thought about pressurising the tank slightly with a tiny scoop on the fuel
cap, but instead went back to the old setup which never missed a beat in 140
hrs and flights up to 8,000.
I run unleaded fuel. Am I right in thinking these filters are acting as an
expansion chamber. Ground air temps were in the low 30 deg C. I can't
imagine this is simply the engine outstripping the fuel flow since I did
tests at cruise rpm and the filter never filled again. Even high throttle
runs at low altitude did not reproduce the effect- it is clearly related to
altitude.
Ideas
Perry Morrison
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Vapour lock? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Fuel flowing through a fuel filter will experience some pressure drop due to
the filter's resistance to flow. Any kind of restriction in the line will
cause some pressure drop, the amount of drop will depend on the flow rate
and degree of restriction. Some of the components of gasoline will boil at
relatively low temperatures at standard sea level pressure. Some components
actually have boiling points below room temperature but remain dissolved in
the liquid and don't bubble out. Auto gas has a greater tendency to vaporize
than avgas, higher octane fuels vaporize easier than low octane fuels and
winter auto gas vaporizes easier than summer gas (for easier starting in the
winter).
Reducing the pressure of the gasoline (either by suction on the inlet of a
pump or by increasing the altitude) will both reduce the boiling point of
its components and reduce their ability to remain in solution. This is why
it's a good idea to have the pump as close to the fuel tank as practical and
having gravity feed to the pump inlet with no filters between the tank and
pump (except for the fairly coarse screen in the tank). Any fine filter
should be between the pump and the carburetor. You rarely have vapor
problems on the pressure side of the pump. The screen in the tank keeps the
large chunks that might damage the pump out of the system, and the filter
keeps the finer stuff from clogging the carb jets or injectors. The pump can
push fuel through a partially clogged filter much easier than it can pull it
through. Even most autos have the filters downstream of the pump.
Keep the fuel under pressure, either gravity pressure or fuel pump pressure,
and vapor lock should not be a problem.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior.
on 5/18/03 10:03 AM, Dr. Perry Morrison at prm@softhome.net wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison" <prm@softhome.net>
>
> I'd appreciate some comments on the following:
>
> My original fuel set up on my 912 was- 60L header tank down to facet boost
> pump on
> inner fire wall with metal finger fuel filter as supplied. Fuel line then
> goes
> thru furewall to gascolator and on to engine. Fuel flow from the drain on
> the gascolator has always been very good.
>
> Since I wasn't happy with an opaque fuel filter I removed the metal fuel
> filter
> on the inlet side of the facet pump and fitted a plastic, transparent fuel
> filter
> immediately under the header tank.
>
> On a flight up to 4,000'AMSL I notice the fuel filter was almost empty.
> Fuel was still in the line and I could see the fuel dribbling in at the top.
> Levelling off at cruise didn't change the situation but I was close to home
> and on descent noticed the filter filling up. At circuit altitude the filter
> was
> almost full. On the ground it was completely full.
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Vapour lock? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
Perry,
Do you have the standard Zenith supplied fuel cut-off valve directly below
the fuel tank?
We've had an incident here when the Zenith supplied fuel shut-off was nearly
blocked by debris. It has quite a small passage and any burr on the
rotating ball catches crud.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 18
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| Subject: | my progress report |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com
Just finished my plans built ch-701 wings this weekend, feels pretty good!
Elevator
and rudder are also done. Ordered material today to start on the rear fuse.
Now if anyone is considering plans built or kit, I thought I'd share
some details.
It took 10 months to build the wings, and 283 hours, averaging an
embarassing
6-3/4 hours a week. It makes me look bad when you guys build your plane in
one year. It took 1-1/2 hours to make each rib from lay out to finished
piece. Can any one
tell me what Zenith charges for a rear rib? My total cost with shipping, and
some
"do-overs", (including another 12 foot sheet of alum) was $1,981. Zenith
wing kit,
$3,740, plus crating $245. plus shipping.....? $3,985. plus. An easy 50%
savings.
some of the pieces were were so simple it would have been silly to buy them
in a kit. Oh-yeah I did buy Zenith nose ribs, those were kinda tricky.
I'm not saying plans building is the only way to go,but it is in my
case.
now, onto that fuselage
Phil Day
scratch building at a snails pace but havin' fun
wings
rudder
elevator
Message 19
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I agree with almost all of this except that I think Lower octane fuels
vapourise easier than higher octane fuels.....Notably 87 auto fuel vaporises
much easierthan 100 octane avgas.
Either way...Don't suck on the fuel!!!
Frank
Stratus sube with valve guides that should now stay in place.
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Martin [mailto:bryanmmartin@comcast.net]
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Vapour lock?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
--> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Fuel flowing through a fuel filter will experience some pressure drop due to
the filter's resistance to flow. Any kind of restriction in the line will
cause some pressure drop, the amount of drop will depend on the flow rate
and degree of restriction. Some of the components of gasoline will boil at
relatively low temperatures at standard sea level pressure. Some components
actually have boiling points below room temperature but remain dissolved in
the liquid and don't bubble out. Auto gas has a greater tendency to vaporize
than avgas, higher octane fuels vaporize easier than low octane fuels and
winter auto gas vaporizes easier than summer gas (for easier starting in the
winter).
Reducing the pressure of the gasoline (either by suction on the inlet of a
pump or by increasing the altitude) will both reduce the boiling point of
its components and reduce their ability to remain in solution. This is why
it's a good idea to have the pump as close to the fuel tank as practical and
having gravity feed to the pump inlet with no filters between the tank and
pump (except for the fairly coarse screen in the tank). Any fine filter
should be between the pump and the carburetor. You rarely have vapor
problems on the pressure side of the pump. The screen in the tank keeps the
large chunks that might damage the pump out of the system, and the filter
keeps the finer stuff from clogging the carb jets or injectors. The pump can
push fuel through a partially clogged filter much easier than it can pull it
through. Even most autos have the filters downstream of the pump.
Keep the fuel under pressure, either gravity pressure or fuel pump pressure,
and vapor lock should not be a problem.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior.
on 5/18/03 10:03 AM, Dr. Perry Morrison at prm@softhome.net wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison"
> --> <prm@softhome.net>
>
> I'd appreciate some comments on the following:
>
> My original fuel set up on my 912 was- 60L header tank down to facet
> boost pump on inner fire wall with metal finger fuel filter as
> supplied. Fuel line then goes
> thru furewall to gascolator and on to engine. Fuel flow from the drain on
> the gascolator has always been very good.
>
> Since I wasn't happy with an opaque fuel filter I removed the metal
> fuel filter on the inlet side of the facet pump and fitted a plastic,
> transparent fuel filter
> immediately under the header tank.
>
> On a flight up to 4,000'AMSL I notice the fuel filter was almost
> empty. Fuel was still in the line and I could see the fuel dribbling
> in at the top. Levelling off at cruise didn't change the situation but
> I was close to home and on descent noticed the filter filling up. At
> circuit altitude the filter was almost full. On the ground it was
> completely full.
>
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Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Vapour lock? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
> This is why it's a good idea to have the pump as close to the fuel tank
as
> practical and having gravity feed to the pump inlet
This is what worries me about the way the XL fuel system is now designed
when you have the extended tanks installed. Basically, all fuel lines run
independently to a 4-way fuel selector valve on the center panel, so the
closest to the tanks you can install the pump is after the selector
valve....which is quite a bit away from the tanks and higher (thus no
gravtity feed). The only alternative I suppose would be to install a
separate Facet pump at the outlet of each tank, which of course adds both
cost and weight. Decisions, decisions. :)
Mike Fortunato
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: Vapour lock? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
The Reid-Vapor pressure is different in AvGas than in auto gas. Auto gas
will vaporize quicker than either 80 octane or 100 octane AvGas. The octane
rating has nothing to do with the vapor pressure reading. The vapor
pressure is higher for winter car gas than summer car gas to aid cold
weather starting in a car. Vapor pressure stays constant year round in
AvGas.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Vapour lock?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> I agree with almost all of this except that I think Lower octane fuels
> vapourise easier than higher octane fuels.....Notably 87 auto fuel
vaporises
> much easierthan 100 octane avgas.
>
> Either way...Don't suck on the fuel!!!
>
> Frank
> Stratus sube with valve guides that should now stay in place.
>
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bryan Martin [mailto:bryanmmartin@comcast.net]
> To: Zenith List
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Vapour lock?
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
> --> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> Fuel flowing through a fuel filter will experience some pressure drop due
to
> the filter's resistance to flow. Any kind of restriction in the line will
> cause some pressure drop, the amount of drop will depend on the flow rate
> and degree of restriction. Some of the components of gasoline will boil at
> relatively low temperatures at standard sea level pressure. Some
components
> actually have boiling points below room temperature but remain dissolved
in
> the liquid and don't bubble out. Auto gas has a greater tendency to
vaporize
> than avgas, higher octane fuels vaporize easier than low octane fuels and
> winter auto gas vaporizes easier than summer gas (for easier starting in
the
> winter).
>
> Reducing the pressure of the gasoline (either by suction on the inlet of a
> pump or by increasing the altitude) will both reduce the boiling point of
> its components and reduce their ability to remain in solution. This is why
> it's a good idea to have the pump as close to the fuel tank as practical
and
> having gravity feed to the pump inlet with no filters between the tank and
> pump (except for the fairly coarse screen in the tank). Any fine filter
> should be between the pump and the carburetor. You rarely have vapor
> problems on the pressure side of the pump. The screen in the tank keeps
the
> large chunks that might damage the pump out of the system, and the filter
> keeps the finer stuff from clogging the carb jets or injectors. The pump
can
> push fuel through a partially clogged filter much easier than it can pull
it
> through. Even most autos have the filters downstream of the pump.
>
> Keep the fuel under pressure, either gravity pressure or fuel pump
pressure,
> and vapor lock should not be a problem.
>
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> Airframe construction complete.
> Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior.
>
>
> on 5/18/03 10:03 AM, Dr. Perry Morrison at prm@softhome.net wrote:
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison"
> > --> <prm@softhome.net>
> >
> > I'd appreciate some comments on the following:
> >
> > My original fuel set up on my 912 was- 60L header tank down to facet
> > boost pump on inner fire wall with metal finger fuel filter as
> > supplied. Fuel line then goes
> > thru furewall to gascolator and on to engine. Fuel flow from the drain
on
> > the gascolator has always been very good.
> >
> > Since I wasn't happy with an opaque fuel filter I removed the metal
> > fuel filter on the inlet side of the facet pump and fitted a plastic,
> > transparent fuel filter
> > immediately under the header tank.
> >
> > On a flight up to 4,000'AMSL I notice the fuel filter was almost
> > empty. Fuel was still in the line and I could see the fuel dribbling
> > in at the top. Levelling off at cruise didn't change the situation but
> > I was close to home and on descent noticed the filter filling up. At
> > circuit altitude the filter was almost full. On the ground it was
> > completely full.
> >
>
>
> advertising on the Matronics Forums.
> Share: Share photos & files with other List members.
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | fuel system design...was Vapour lock? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Pwalsh4539@aol.com
Just curious...who is using the parallel system as opposed to series? I have
always used a parallel, but for simplicity, I am seriously considering going
series this annual. My present parallel system sure does have a lot of fuel
line running everywhere, and for a series system it would be simple to have
the following:
Header tank, finger screen and shut off valve, to gascolator(without
filter) on firewall...to facet pump on lower firewall...then to Rotax 912
fuel pump, to filter, tee for fuel pressure guage, tee to carbs. Isnt simpler
safer??
Opinions?
Thanks,
Patrick Walsh
601 HD w/ 912
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: fuel system design...was Vapour lock? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: prm@softhome.net
Patrick,
This is almost my fuel old set up except my header tank runs
into a shutoff valve first and the finger filter is on the inlet
side of the facet pump and the gascolator on the other side.
I note people's concerns with sucking through any filter and I've
thought it silly to pump into a gascolator designed to trap rubbish.
So your setup sounds better although mine has run fine for 140 hrs
and made a S-N traverse of Australia.
In my own "vapour lock" case probably the best starting point is
to exactly measure the on-ground fuel flow from the fuel drain.
If this is OK then there's unlikely to be any restrictions in the
tank or line and what I'm dealing with is clearly altitude related
vapourisation locking up the big plastic fuel filter inlet.
The fact that I can go fuel throttle @ 1000' and the fuel filter
remains full, while @ 4,000' and cruise it's starting to empty
suggests it isn't throttle dependent or caused by a valve/line
restriction.
ON ANOTHER MATTER- I SENT AN .AVI IN COCKPIT VIDEO OF A LANDING IN MY 601HD
TO THE PHOTOSHARE ADDRESS- pictures@matronics.com. ANY IDEA HOW
I CAN FOLLOW UP ON THIS?
Pwalsh4539@aol.com writes:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Pwalsh4539@aol.com
>
> Just curious...who is using the parallel system as opposed to series? I have
> always used a parallel, but for simplicity, I am seriously considering going
> series this annual. My present parallel system sure does have a lot of fuel
> line running everywhere, and for a series system it would be simple to have
> the following:
> Header tank, finger screen and shut off valve, to gascolator(without
> filter) on firewall...to facet pump on lower firewall...then to Rotax 912
> fuel pump, to filter, tee for fuel pressure guage, tee to carbs. Isnt simpler
> safer??
> Opinions?
> Thanks,
> Patrick Walsh
> 601 HD w/ 912
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Vapour lock? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" <hulens61@birch.net>
I suppose would be to install a
> separate Facet pump at the outlet of each tank,
> which of course adds both cost and weight.
And adds Reliability ! Your choice, you can either save a very little bit
of money or receive reliability by placing the pumps were they can PUSH as
recommended.
Fred
do not archive
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: fuel system design...was Vapour lock? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
As long as fuel will flow freely through either pump in the forward
direction if it quits working, this setup sounds good.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior.
do not archive.
on 5/19/03 8:59 PM, Pwalsh4539@aol.com at Pwalsh4539@aol.com wrote:
> Header tank, finger screen and shut off valve, to gascolator(without
> filter) on firewall...to facet pump on lower firewall...then to Rotax 912
> fuel pump, to filter, tee for fuel pressure guage, tee to carbs. Isnt simpler
> safer??
> Opinions?
> Thanks,
> Patrick Walsh
> 601 HD w/ 912
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: fuel system design...was Vapour lock? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
The filter may be restricting the flow just enough that its effect isn't
noticeable until you reach that altitude.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior.
on 5/19/03 9:47 PM, prm@softhome.net at prm@softhome.net wrote:
> The fact that I can go fuel throttle @ 1000' and the fuel filter
> remains full, while @ 4,000' and cruise it's starting to empty
> suggests it isn't throttle dependent or caused by a valve/line
> restriction.
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Fw: Reality Check |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David J. Dormer" <revdjd@gci.net>
Fellow Zenith List Members:
I am considering buying a Zodiac 601XL kit from Zenith Aircraft. As you might
expect, I have a few questions that I would like to ask of the members of this
e-list who have had experience building the 601 aircraft. I hope that someone
may have the time to answer these questions.
1.. To those who are building right now: How good are the instructions/blueprints
for the building of the airplane? How many pages are in the construction
manual? Are the instructions clear, easy to understand and follow for the first
time builder? Realistically, if one works 6-8 hours a day on the weekend how
much can really be accomplished?
2.. How's the delivery time for the kit or for modules of the kit? What is the
wait-time for delivery?
3.. How's the quality of the parts in the kit?
4.. The Zenith website states that the airplane can be built only with simple
hand tools. Is this for real?
D.J. Dormer
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Vapour lock? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
All auto gas vaporizes easier than any grade of avgas. Avgas and auto gas
are made by completely different processes. Auto gas is made by "skimming
off" the lighter compounds from crude oil. Avgas is made by catalytically
cracking the heavier compounds in the crude oil into lighter ones suitable
for gasoline engines, this somehow results in a less volatile mixture. This
is something to keep in mind when designing a fuel system for a plane that
will use auto gas, the fuel pressure is more critical.
The Octane rating of auto gas is increased primarily by adding a larger
fraction of lighter, more volatile compounds. High octane racing gas is more
volatile than 87 octane auto gas. I believe 100 octane avgas is more
volatile than 80 octane avgas, but I could be mistaken.
I'm no expert on the subject, I just happened to do some reading on the
subject recently.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior.
do not archive.
on 5/19/03 7:48 PM, HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1) at frank.hinde@hp.com
wrote:
>
> I agree with almost all of this except that I think Lower octane fuels
> vapourise easier than higher octane fuels.....Notably 87 auto fuel vaporises
> much easierthan 100 octane avgas.
>
> Either way...Don't suck on the fuel!!!
>
> Frank
> Stratus sube with valve guides that should now stay in place.
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Reality Check |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
D.J.:
I have just completed my tail section, so I can answer a few of your
questions, however I'm building from plans only. The question that jumped
out at me was the last one. It is a matter of preference, but I prefer not
to use hand tools when a perfectly good power tool is available to do the
job. Especially not the hand riveter. I bought a riveter from Harbor
Freight on sale for $54 and it has worked flawlessly. I have had an air
compressor for many years so it was a small investment. Ray M. in
Cupertino, CA is building his kit with just a hand riveter (I'm a big fan of
his web site and browse it often) and he says he enjoys the quiet operation,
but I would have to have gorilla arms to pump that riveter as much as Ray
does. It takes three or four squeezes for each rivet when I use the hand
riveter and only a slight pull of the trigger for the air operated puller.
When it comes to cutting aluminum, high quality Wiss Offset snips are
fantastic, but you need a band saw if you plan to cut .040 and thicker AL.
The new version of the XL plans are really good as far as I'm concerned. I
study them quite a bit since I have to build each part and they have not let
me down yet. Nick H. has done a great job of updating the drawings to their
current form.
I have no first hand knowledge of the delivery on parts, but my new friends
I met at the rudder building class have expressed some frustration at
waiting on components and full kits. I guess ZAC is getting busy and that
is a good thing.
As far as the quality of the parts, from what I saw at the factory, the
parts are superb and the workers are real craftsmen. I build my own parts,
so I really respect those guys.
Also, concerning the how many pages are in the manuals - ZAC posts the
manuals on-line at their builder's website and they are excellent
photo-manuals. Nick H. updates them from time-to-time, so I check them
often and print only the section I am working on. There are lots of photos
and good instructions, but you have to study them.
If you can, I recommend that you attend the rudder-building seminar. It
really energized the start of my project and I was really proud to bring
home my rudder after only two days. Great experience if you haven't already
attended. They have it every month I think.
Good luck on your project,
Scott Laughlin
Omaha, NE
601XL - www.cooknwithgas.com
----Original Message Follows----
From: "David J. Dormer" <revdjd@gci.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Fw: Reality Check
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David J. Dormer" <revdjd@gci.net>
Fellow Zenith List Members:
1.. How good are the instructions/blueprints for the building of the
airplane? How many pages are in the construction manual?
2.. How's the delivery time for the kit or for modules of the kit? What
is the wait-time for delivery?
3.. How's the quality of the parts in the kit?
4.. The Zenith website states that the airplane can be built only with
simple hand tools. Is this for real?
D.J. Dormer
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Vapour lock? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
If the selector is installed at floor level with an extended shaft on the
actuator and the fuel pumps are installed on the floor just ahead of it, you
should get gravity feed. The wing dihedral puts the bottom of the tanks
above the level of the cabin floor, even more so for the outboard tanks.
I only have two tanks and use one valve for each. They flow into a tee at
the inlet to the gascolater which is mounted on the centerline just ahead of
the spar. My two fuel pumps are mounted in parallel on the heel support just
ahead of the gascolater.
You could connect the two tanks in each wing together as one large tank. Run
a line between them at the bottom and top and vent only the outboard tanks.
Or you could use a separate valve for each tank and it would still be
cheaper and lighter than one of those 4-way valves (Just remember to turn on
the tank you're switching to before you turn off the one you're using). :)
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior.
do not archive.
on 5/19/03 8:10 PM, wizard-24@juno.com at wizard-24@juno.com wrote:
> This is what worries me about the way the XL fuel system is now designed
> when you have the extended tanks installed. Basically, all fuel lines run
> independently to a 4-way fuel selector valve on the center panel, so the
> closest to the tanks you can install the pump is after the selector
> valve....which is quite a bit away from the tanks and higher (thus no
> gravtity feed). The only alternative I suppose would be to install a
> separate Facet pump at the outlet of each tank, which of course adds both
> cost and weight. Decisions, decisions. :)
>
> Mike Fortunato
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Reality Check |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 5/19/03 11:27 PM, David J. Dormer at revdjd@gci.net wrote:
> 1.. To those who are building right now: How good are the
> instructions/blueprints for the building of the airplane? How many pages are
> in the construction manual? Are the instructions clear, easy to understand and
> follow for the first time builder? Realistically, if one works 6-8 hours a day
> on the weekend how much can really be accomplished?
The only places I had any trouble with the plans were in the forward
fuselage area and engine installation. I managed to figure everything out
though and am well on my way to finishing it. The Subaru engine option is
not as common or as well supported as the Rotax, which accounts for some of
the difficulty. I found a lot of helpful information and pictures by
checking out other builders web sites and the photo archives at the Zenith
website. I also went to Oshkosh and took a good look at the demo plane and
took lots of pictures. If you can work on the plane 16 hours every weekend,
you should be able to at least finish the airframe within a year. You could
probably get a lot more than that done. If this is your first airplane
project you should probably figure on around a thousand hours to complete
the whole thing. A lot depends on how good you are with your hands. This is
not just a matter of assembling a bunch of parts.
> 2.. How's the delivery time for the kit or for modules of the kit? What is the
> wait-time for delivery?
I think the longest I had to wait for a major section of the kit a couple of
months and the company generally let me know up front how long it would
take.
> 3.. How's the quality of the parts in the kit?
The quality has been very good and any problems I had were dealt with very
promptly by Zenith. All in all, it's been a very good experience.
> 4.. The Zenith website states that the airplane can be built only with simple
> hand tools. Is this for real?
Yes it is and yes you can. I built most of the project by myself with just a
battery drill and hand tools. I did buy a small compressor and an
inexpensive pneumatic rivet puller from Harbor Freight. Not the "aircraft"
rivet puller, it's more money and you don't need it for the Avex rivets used
in the kit, the cheaper one works just fine.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior.
do not archive.
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Reality Check |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" <r5t0ut@ev1.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "David J. Dormer" <revdjd@gci.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Fw: Reality Check
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David J. Dormer" <revdjd@gci.net>
>
>
> Fellow Zenith List Members:
>
>
> I am considering buying a Zodiac 601XL kit from Zenith Aircraft. As you
might expect, I have a few questions that I would like to ask of the members
of this e-list who have had experience building the 601 aircraft. I hope
that someone may have the time to answer these questions.
>
>
> 1.. To those who are building right now: How good are the
instructions/blueprints for the building of the airplane? How many pages are
in the construction manual? Are the instructions clear, easy to understand
and follow for the first time builder? Realistically, if one works 6-8 hours
a day on the weekend how much can really be accomplished?
> 2.. How's the delivery time for the kit or for modules of the kit? What
is the wait-time for delivery?
> 3.. How's the quality of the parts in the kit?
> 4.. The Zenith website states that the airplane can be built only with
simple hand tools. Is this for real?
>
>
> D.J. Dormer
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | 4-point belts... |
05/20/2003 08:28:08 AM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jari.Kaija@pkcgroup.com
Has anyone modifications and plans for 4-point belts?
Our "EAA" requires that kind of belt system for
experimental aircrafts... (since last autumn).
-Jari CH701 / Rotax 912
-------------------------------------------
Jari Kaija
Electronic Designer
PKC Group Oyj
Vihikari 10
FIN-90440 KEMPELE
FINLAND
Mobile: +358 (0)40 5200265
Phone: +358 (0)201 752252
TeleFax: +358 (0)201 752401
jari.kaija@pkcgroup.com
http://www.pkcgroup.com
http://www.project-ch701.net
-------------------------------------------
Message 34
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| Subject: | CH801 scratch plans availability |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: scott heinzerling <glastar2000@yahoo.com>
Does anyone know where I can find the scratch plans
for the Zenithair CH801 plane? Scott Heinzerling:
near future CH801 scratch builder. Engine of choice:
Subie 3.3 litre.
__________________________________
http://search.yahoo.com
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: 4-point belts... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Frisby" <marslander@hotmail.com>
Art Mitchell at flypass has made this mod on at least one CH801
>From: Jari.Kaija@pkcgroup.com
>Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: 4-point belts...
>Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 08:28:08 +0300 05/20/2003 08:28:08 AM
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jari.Kaija@pkcgroup.com
>
>Has anyone modifications and plans for 4-point belts?
>Our "EAA" requires that kind of belt system for
>experimental aircrafts... (since last autumn).
>
>
>-Jari CH701 / Rotax 912
>-------------------------------------------
>Jari Kaija
>Electronic Designer
>PKC Group Oyj
>Vihikari 10
>FIN-90440 KEMPELE
>FINLAND
>Mobile: +358 (0)40 5200265
>Phone: +358 (0)201 752252
>TeleFax: +358 (0)201 752401
>jari.kaija@pkcgroup.com
>http://www.pkcgroup.com
>http://www.project-ch701.net
>-------------------------------------------
>
>
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