---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 05/22/03: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:38 AM - Seats () 2. 08:19 AM - Re: High Density Altitude performance (Mark A. Wood) 3. 09:14 AM - performance chart (Mark A. Wood) 4. 09:19 AM - Re: performance chart (Michel Therrien) 5. 09:55 AM - Re: performance chart (Bill Steer) 6. 01:55 PM - Re: High Density Altitude performance (Gary Gower) 7. 03:11 PM - Aluminum cleaner and paintable silicone caulk (LARRY BOHANNON) 8. 03:26 PM - Re: First Flight (Grant Corriveau) 9. 03:26 PM - Re: Re: Heffer of a Bird (Grant Corriveau) 10. 03:26 PM - Re: Sucking on Fuel (Grant Corriveau) 11. 03:34 PM - San Diego Builders (Brandon Tucker) 12. 07:36 PM - Re: First Flight (Ed) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:38:02 AM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: Seats --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Morelli, would you contact me off list so I can ask about material needed for confor seats? Jensenm33@sbcglobal.net Jerry Jensen 601HDS Jabiru 3300 90% ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:29 AM PST US From: "Mark A. Wood" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: High Density Altitude performance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark A. Wood" I will really be ticked if my 601HD with an O-200 does not perform well.(Should be off the ground early summer and I am really looking forward to that) Some time ago someone started to put together a chart to compare different engines on different 601 set ups. Did that ever get done. I know something like that is hard with so many different variables engine; 912 vs 914 vs Subaru vs Corvair vs O-200 vs O-235 vs Honda wing; HD vs HDS vs XL: landing gear; tricycle vs tailwheel which prop and angle of prop? How do you measure speed, air pressure(bad without a static tube) GPS with a triangular course (good) I had been looking at using a Subaru or Corvair. If it turns out I have a dog and it could have been better with a less expensive engine, I will not be happy. It would be great if we had enough info to get a good comparison. For me even more than the speed will be the climb performance. As I said above I think someone started to put together a chart. What happened to it? Anyone know? Do we need to pick that idea up again? Mark Wood >Bill Howerton wrote: > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" >> >> Hi Stan, I have a question for you and the collective group. I am based out >> of MeadowLake Airport, which is approximately 12 miles NE of Colorado >> Springs. The field elevation is 6874 feet. On a warm day, it is not >> uncommon to see the DA climb well above 9000 feet and sometimes even peak >> above 10,000 feet. The question I have is this: Does anyone have any >> performance statistics on the 601 at high density altitude? Specifically, >> how does the DA affect rate of climb, take-off, landing, useful load etc.? >> >> This is especially pertinent because I'm in the process of building a 601XL, >> and need to decide which engine to buy. Because of the DA, I'm leaning >> toward the bigger motors like the Lycoming 235 or the Corvair O-190 due to >> their horsepower, but have no hard numbers to back up those decisions. I've >> asked a number of sources including ZAC and the engine manufacturers but no >> one seems to know. >> >> Surely someone in this list can provide the data I'm looking for. >> > > Bill Howerton -- Mark Wood Assistive Technology Consultant, VT I-Team Center on Disability and Community Inclusion University of Vermont ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:46 AM PST US From: "Mark A. Wood" Subject: Zenith-List: performance chart --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark A. Wood" Bill Steer just sent me his spreadsheet that had the information about performance of different 601s. This is the information I was talking about in my previous posting. I wanted to publicly thank Bill for sending me the spreadsheet and also for putting it together. Thank you Bill I also want to ask people to remember to send performance information to Bill, as I am sure he will add it to his spreadsheet, and the more the better for people who have not yet made a commitment to airframe, wing, or engine. The information he has in the sheet includes Builder, Registration # Model Engine Prop Total Time (hrs) Empty Weight (lbs) Rate of Climb (fpm) Climb at Speed Stall Speed (mph) Speed Across the Fence (mph) Touch Down Speed (mph) Cruise Speed (mph) Service Ceiling (MSL - ft) Notes Bill, I hope you don't mind having me plug your spreadsheet, I think it has some good info. Mark Wood -- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:10 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: performance chart --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien Bill's spreadsheet is posted on my web site (since last year, I think). A few planes have been added since then and I'll be pleased to update it with additional data if you like. Michel --- "Mark A. Wood" wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark A. Wood" > > > Bill Steer just sent me his spreadsheet that had the > information > about performance of different 601s. This is the > information I was > talking about in my previous posting. I wanted to > publicly thank Bill > for sending me the spreadsheet and also for putting > it together. > Thank you Bill > > I also want to ask people to remember to send > performance information > to Bill, as I am sure he will add it to his > spreadsheet, and the more > the better for people who have not yet made a > commitment to airframe, > wing, or engine. The information he has in the sheet > includes > > Builder, > Registration # > Model > Engine > Prop > Total Time (hrs) > Empty Weight (lbs) > Rate of Climb (fpm) > Climb at Speed > Stall Speed (mph) > Speed Across the Fence (mph) > Touch Down Speed (mph) > Cruise Speed (mph) > Service Ceiling (MSL - ft) > Notes > > Bill, I hope you don't mind having me plug your > spreadsheet, I think > it has some good info. > > Mark Wood ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________ http://search.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:55:53 AM PST US From: "Bill Steer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: performance chart --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" Thanks, Mark. I'm glad to be able to put it together and maintain it. If anybody wants to contribute the information Mark listed, please either post it to the list or send it directly to me. If anybody wants a copy, just drop me a note. Bill Do not archive > > Builder, > Registration # > Model > Engine > Prop > Total Time (hrs) > Empty Weight (lbs) > Rate of Climb (fpm) > Climb at Speed > Stall Speed (mph) > Speed Across the Fence (mph) > Touch Down Speed (mph) > Cruise Speed (mph) > Service Ceiling (MSL - ft) > Notes ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:55:46 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: High Density Altitude performance --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower That will be great, BUT there are so many variables, just with the same engine... using diferent propelers (pitch & Diam), altitude and temperature the results will be like black and white. The comparision should be with the diferent options in similar conditions to evaluate fairly every conbination. One important thing... Each of us should do the best homework availabe to us to decide our particular plane's options... once if the finished is a SAFE airplane (Gross, CG, performance inside parameters, etc.) we can LIVE and get old flying it. I wont be disapointed if my particular plane is 5 miles slower or faster than another similar one, but if I feel confident to take my children for a ride knowing that we will be back and in one piece, I also feel confortable the way it handles in all safe conditions, even in turbulence: I will be proud of having and excelent airplane, I will just need to convince my ego :-). Saludos Gary Gower 701 912S Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico. --- "Mark A. Wood" wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark A. Wood" > > > I will really be ticked if my 601HD with an O-200 does not perform > well.(Should be off the ground early summer and I am really looking > forward to that) Some time ago someone started to put together a > chart to compare different engines on different 601 set ups. Did that > > ever get done. I know something like that is hard with so many > different variables > > engine; 912 vs 914 vs Subaru vs Corvair vs O-200 vs O-235 vs Honda > wing; HD vs HDS vs XL: > landing gear; tricycle vs tailwheel > which prop and angle of prop? > How do you measure speed, air pressure(bad without a static tube) GPS > > with a triangular course (good) > > I had been looking at using a Subaru or Corvair. If it turns out I > have a dog and it could have been better with a less expensive > engine, I will not be happy. It would be great if we had enough info > to get a good comparison. For me even more than the speed will be the > > climb performance. As I said above I think someone started to put > together a chart. What happened to it? Anyone know? Do we need to > pick that idea up again? > Mark Wood > > >Bill Howerton wrote: > > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" > > >> > >> Hi Stan, I have a question for you and the collective group. I > am based out > >> of MeadowLake Airport, which is approximately 12 miles NE of > Colorado > >> Springs. The field elevation is 6874 feet. On a warm day, it is > not > >> uncommon to see the DA climb well above 9000 feet and sometimes > even peak > >> above 10,000 feet. The question I have is this: Does anyone > have any > >> performance statistics on the 601 at high density altitude? > Specifically, > >> how does the DA affect rate of climb, take-off, landing, useful > load etc.? > >> > >> This is especially pertinent because I'm in the process of > building a 601XL, > >> and need to decide which engine to buy. Because of the DA, I'm > leaning > >> toward the bigger motors like the Lycoming 235 or the Corvair > O-190 due to > >> their horsepower, but have no hard numbers to back up those > decisions. I've > >> asked a number of sources including ZAC and the engine > manufacturers but no > >> one seems to know. > >> > >> Surely someone in this list can provide the data I'm looking for. > >> > > > Bill Howerton > > -- > Mark Wood > Assistive Technology Consultant, VT I-Team > Center on Disability and Community Inclusion > University of Vermont > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://search.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:11:39 PM PST US From: "LARRY BOHANNON" Subject: Zenith-List: Aluminum cleaner and paintable silicone caulk --> Zenith-List message posted by: "LARRY BOHANNON" I'm just finishing up my 701 right wing and I would like to clean it before putting it away in storage while I work on the rest of the plane. I use laquer thinner to remove the sharpie markings and tried Dawn dishwashing detergent and a non-solvent cleaner/degreaser from Home Depot to try and remove the greasy handprints,sweat, etc. but still doesn't clean up very well. Question: Anybody know of any good cleaners for the handprints,grease? Should I try Alumprep or wait until I'm ready to paint? Also, I would like to caulk various places, especially around where the gas cap comes through the skin.Thought I would try a paintable silicone caulk. Anybody tried this or know of something better? Regards, Larry Bohannon Building "Miss Ride Me High 701" Winder, Georgia ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:26:08 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Flight From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > Something similar happened here, there are two Kitfox "6" diferent > owners, one has a Rotax 912 S (100 hp) and the other one a 235 (Co or > Ly?) about 115 hp. both engines are factory new. > > Well the take of and climb performance of the Rotax one is awsome, the > one with the 235 climbs like a C 172... The 235 is more expensive, > heavy and the flying performance is diferent (more like a 150), maybe > because is a direct drive and the extra weight? The owner is very > dispointed. > > Saludos > Gary Gower. Hi Gary, The weight is significant of course when comparing the overall performance with the same payload. But assuming both aircraft are loaded to Max takeoff weight, then there must be something else going on. I'd suspect it's in the propellor (assuming that the engine is actually putting out its rated power)... Didn't someone on this list using the Jab 3300 have a huge performance improvement after they found the correct propellor size/pitch setting? Besides HP the other key factor to consider is at what RPM does the engine produce max tourque. I think ideally you want a prop that allows the engine to run at full throttle, just above the max tourque RPM, as much as possible. The 235 owner should look at trying some different prop sizes and pitch angles etc.... and check with the engine manufacturer regarding best climb rpm etc... Without the ideal prop/setting, it could be similar to running a car in the wrong gear all the time and of course, not getting proper performance. -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:26:08 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Heffer of a Bird From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > I also suspect that the mechanic that did the original weigh in, used the > wrong equipment. He used commercial sized scales that are used to weigh > jets. He had a very hard time calibrating it in the lower weight setting. Hmm - those numbers sure don't add up well... You can easily recheck the weight yourself with an accurate set of bathroom scales. -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:08 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sucking on Fuel From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > There's probably a legacy of people copying standard aircraft/avgas fuel > systems that are unappropriate for those of us running unleaded mogas. What's more, many of those systems that some builders use as models, were certified (many as far back as the 1940s and '50s), with specific technology in mind. This doesn't mean that the manufacturers would design them the same way today. > There's been many a flight when I've omitted to turn the thing off! I've reasoned that I'm using the same Facet pumps that are designed for continuous service on the underside of my car - in the grime and salt - so it should run continuously just fine in the relatively cleaner environment of my aircraft. I run one at each tank (2) full time except if necessary for balancing. The full time electrical load is only about 2 amps each. fwiw -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:22 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: San Diego Builders --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Greetings List, I just got back from the gulf, so I missed the last few months of posts. I just recieved word that I will be transferring to San Diego this summer, and I am looking for builders in the area. I know one of the computer guys on the list put together a search engine a few months ago, but I don't have the site anymore. Anyone building anywhere in California between San Diego and Paso Robles that can give me a looksie during the first two weeks of June? I am coming home on vacation and want to see one up close. I am tired of looking at the plans and dreaming! I hope to order the tail feathers as soon as I close on a house. Brandon Tucker Plans rotting in the closet --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:24 PM PST US From: "Ed" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Flight --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed" Re the discussion on engine power/weight and props etc. A few details of my 601hds with the 0-235. Prop is a wooden Sensenich, two bladed 66" dia and if I remember correctly has a pitch of 56... (can't find the paperwork) This was the prop suggested to me by Sensenich when I enquired about prices for a wooden prop. The guy there knew the Zenith and recommended a 68" x 56 pitch but because of ground clearance (which turned out not to be an issue) I ordered a 66". Aircraft checked on scales when completed at 700lbs empty weight. Takeoff rpm (static) is around 2300 which increases to 2500 on the roll and I currently climb at 80kts and 1000/1100ft/min (full fuel and single occupant...around 1010lb) With two up ROC is slightly reduced to around 800/900ft/min. This is all at sea level. Cruise speed at 4500ft by gps (in various directions) averaged out at 105kts with 2300rpm set. I am hesitant to be definitive about these figures as the engine was bought second hand and compression on one cylinder was only 40/80 and the others around 68/80 and I have no history on the engine as far as hours etc go. I have just changed the low cylinder (for another second hand one!)this afternoon and am curious to see what, if any, difference it makes....(it does run smoother.) Maybe the above will be of some help to anyone thinking about using a lycoming...I'm pretty happy with it. Ed 601hds/lyc...56hrs (Ink still wet on my license)