Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:17 AM - Cowling fiberglass thickness (Michel Therrien)
2. 06:24 AM - Re: Cowling fiberglass thickness (Benford2@aol.com)
3. 07:03 AM - Re: Cowling fiberglass thickness (Gary Liming)
4. 07:03 AM - Re: Cowling fiberglass thickness (Randy Stout)
5. 08:21 AM - Re: fuel tubing for sight gauge (Ron DeWees)
6. 08:48 AM - Re: fuel tubing for sight gauge (Don Walker)
7. 09:31 AM - Re: What's the Chatter? (The Meiste's)
8. 10:03 AM - 912 EGT's (Greg Ferris)
9. 11:06 AM - Re: fuel tubing for sight gauge (Dave Alberti)
10. 11:32 AM - Re: fuel tubing for sight gauge (Chesterman Family)
11. 03:34 PM - Re: Cowling fiberglass thickness (Michel Therrien)
12. 03:37 PM - Re: Cowling fiberglass thickness (Michel Therrien)
13. 07:21 PM - XL Rudder question (Joe Kerr)
14. 08:32 PM - Re: XL Rudder question (Don Honabach)
15. 09:03 PM - Re: XL Rudder question (Scott Laughlin)
16. 11:14 PM - Aileron and Elevator Gap seals (Norman Turner)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Cowling fiberglass thickness |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Hello group,
I made a sample piece of fiberglass yesterday and I'm
surprised by the end result in terms of material
thickness and flexibility.
The part (a sheet 12" by 20") I made varies from 3 to
5 layers of 6oz fiberglass material.
The 3 layer portion of the sheet is very flexible and
is approx .032" in thickness.
The 4 layer portion is still quite flexible and is
approx. .040".
I can't really comment on the 5-ply flexibility as
that portion is too small, but thickness is around
.050" (less than 1/16" of an inch).
How thick should the cowling material be? I was told
to use between 3 and 4 layers of cloth... is this what
I should use? What stiffness should I expect in the
final result?
Thanks!
Michel
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling fiberglass thickness |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
Hi. I just measured my cowling which is a Airlink one for a Franklin for my
801. It is .097 including the gel coat. In the joggle area where the top cowl
fits into the lower cowl there is no gel coat and it is .081. Of course the
thing is 5 feet long and needs some extra strength . I have to admit it is flimsy
for what is does. It is MUCH better fiberglass quality then the Zenith
supplied glass parts like the tips.
Ben Haas N801BH.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling fiberglass thickness |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming <gary@liming.org>
At 09:23 AM 6/8/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>
>Hi. I just measured my cowling which is a Airlink one for a Franklin for my
>801. ... I have to admit it is flimsy
>for what is does. It is MUCH better fiberglass quality then the Zenith
>supplied glass parts like the tips.
Yeah - I plan on beefing my ZAC cowling up in certain places with a couple
of additional layers. It is plain ole resin, so the polyester stuff should
work ok. An easy way to see where it is too thin is simply shine a light
on the other side!
Gary Liming
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling fiberglass thickness |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" <r5t0ut@ev1.net>
Michel
If I remember correctly from my KR building days, the KR used 4 layers of
5.85 oz BID (bi-directional cloth) on things like leading edges and cowl and
2 layers on other places. The BID was cut and applied on the bias, or
diagonally, to add torsional resistance. Depending on what kind of resin
you used, it may take many days for it to cure to full strength.
I recently made some modifications to mine. I used 4 layers of the BID with
Aeropoxy. It felt flexible for quite a while. I don't think it started
getting real stiff until I applied the filler. If you only have a flat
sheet, I don't think it will ever get very stiff. The bends and curves add
to the strength and stiffness.
--
Randy Stout - San Antonio
VW powered Zodiac N282RS
r5t0ut@ev1.net
http://www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Therrien" <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Cowling fiberglass thickness
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
>
> Hello group,
>
> I made a sample piece of fiberglass yesterday and I'm
> surprised by the end result in terms of material
> thickness and flexibility.
>
> The part (a sheet 12" by 20") I made varies from 3 to
> 5 layers of 6oz fiberglass material.
>
> The 3 layer portion of the sheet is very flexible and
> is approx .032" in thickness.
>
> The 4 layer portion is still quite flexible and is
> approx. .040".
>
> I can't really comment on the 5-ply flexibility as
> that portion is too small, but thickness is around
> .050" (less than 1/16" of an inch).
>
> How thick should the cowling material be? I was told
> to use between 3 and 4 layers of cloth... is this what
> I should use? What stiffness should I expect in the
> final result?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Michel
>
>
> =====
> ----------------------------
> Michel Therrien CH601-HD
> http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
> http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
> http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
>
> __________________________________
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: fuel tubing for sight gauge |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Hi Dave,
I got blue Tygron at ACS but didn't see any yellow, but it's too dense to
see fuel thru. I will check for yellow also. I plan on sleeving my clear
with the next size up of vinyl tubing and also will have a shutoff on both
ends of the 8 inches or so of clear so hopefully this will cut the problems
down. I dont know what folks are doing with the full sight tube from the
header tank. It could dump 8 or 16 gallons in your lap and ruin your whole
day : (
Thanks
Ron
<daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
>
> Ron,
> I used Tygon gasoline rated clear (yellow) tubing. Unless it is gasoline
> rated, I wouldn't touch it. The clear tubing supplied by Zenair
> disintegrated after three years, leaving me with a cockpit full of fuel -
> fortunately when I wasn't flying.
> Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
>
> >
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: fuel tubing for sight gauge |
Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 10:48:14 -0500
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" <dwalk3dw@msn.com>
I'm using clear vinyl tubing from Lowe's in my sight tube. I changed it out at
the end of three years due to yellowing. Upon removal it was still well intact
but discoloration had ruined visibility. Don Walker HDS
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron DeWees
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel tubing for sight gauge
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Hi Dave,
I got blue Tygron at ACS but didn't see any yellow, but it's too dense to
see fuel thru. I will check for yellow also. I plan on sleeving my clear
with the next size up of vinyl tubing and also will have a shutoff on both
ends of the 8 inches or so of clear so hopefully this will cut the problems
down. I dont know what folks are doing with the full sight tube from the
header tank. It could dump 8 or 16 gallons in your lap and ruin your whole
day : (
Thanks
Ron
<daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
>
> Ron,
> I used Tygon gasoline rated clear (yellow) tubing. Unless it is gasoline
> rated, I wouldn't touch it. The clear tubing supplied by Zenair
> disintegrated after three years, leaving me with a cockpit full of fuel -
> fortunately when I wasn't flying.
> Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
>
> >
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: What's the Chatter? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "The Meiste's" <meiste@essex1.com>
> I'm flying my first belt reduction, a Stratus. After 290 hours and lots
of experimentation I have been unable to find a tension setting that
eliminates the chattering when I come off the power. Takeoff is always
smooth and some times stays that way for a while, but inevitably the chatter
creeps in. Cruising straight and level at a particular setting may be smooth
and then without warning, here it comes. Usually this is at lower power
settings though. It seems less likely to produce this above 4000 rpm. This
will be removed after adding power above a certain point, too. I have my
pitch at 15 degrees on a Warp drive and cruise 100 at 4150 in summer and
3900 in winter. Flying eighty five or ninety, which I like to do frequently,
is where I have the problem..from 3400 thru 3800 rpm.
Don,
I have the same engine in my HD, and I have my warp prop pitched at 15.5
deg. I also cruise 3,800 to 4,000 rpm (if my engine temps allow).
I have never noticed the chatter you describe. Seems I get a slight
vibration at around 3,400 rpm but nothing more. Are you sure the belt is to
blame?
Kelly
Message 8
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Greg Ferris" <ferret@wmtel.net>
I have a 912UL and a Grand Rapids Technologies Engine Monitor. My EGT's have always
been on the high side, but I noticed on one flight that one cylinder was
getting over 1570. When I orginally programmed the limits in my monitor, Lockwood
told me 1620 was the redline for EGT. Just out of curiosity, I called LEAF
and asked about my EGT's. I was told the normal range is 1470 to 1562F.
To lower the EGT's I moved the clips on the jet needles down to richen the mixture.
When I did this, 3 of the cylinder EGT's dropped into the 1430~1480 range,
but the right rear cylinder stayed in the 1560~1570 range. I swapped EGT
probes to verify that it is not a bad probe.
I talked with another Zodiac builder who has experienced the exact same phenomenon
( with a different cylinder). He has done everything imaginable to eliminate
the possibility of an air leak in the induction side. He also moved the probe
location with no effect. To me that the air/fuel mixture is simply not consistant
from cylinder to cylinder. It is a mystery to me why this would only
be happening on one cylinder though.
I would like to hear from other people using the 912 and 4 EGT probes to see if
what I'm experiencing is common or not.
Happy Flying,
Greg
Message 9
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| Subject: | fuel tubing for sight gauge |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" <daberti@execpc.com>
The fuel sight lines should be fitted with an orifice at each end no bigger
than 1/16 diameter. This allows the fuel to flow slowly into the sight
tube, minimizes wild swings due to G forces and if you get a leak it is much
less than you get using a full 1/4 inch tube. A small solid rod of aluminum
or brass pushed into the line will work just fine.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ron DeWees
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel tubing for sight gauge
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
I plan on sleeving my clear
with the next size up of vinyl tubing and also will have a shutoff on both
ends of the 8 inches or so of clear so hopefully this will cut the problems
down. I dont know what folks are doing with the full sight tube from the
header tank. It could dump 8 or 16 gallons in your lap and ruin your whole
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: fuel tubing for sight gauge |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Chesterman Family <chesterman@on.aibn.com>
my 701 uses fuel line as a sight gauge and I have to replace it every two years
or I can't see through the stained gas line. I run premix but fuel line will
always discolor so build in a way you can replace hose easily.
Dave Chesterman
Rick wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick <rick.pitcher@verizon.net>
>
> Ron DeWees wrote:
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
> >
> > Hi Gang, I need to ask your advise yet again. I plan on using a short length
of clear tubing from each wing tank into the selector switch on the center
console so I can see when the fuel is exhausted. I found blue tubing at ACS,
but it's a bit too dense to see fuel through. What are others using for clear
tubing? I found something marked as clear fuel tubing at an auto parts store,
but there were no details on composition or heat range. Any ideas would
be appreciated.
> >
> > Ron DeWees
> > Zenair 601HDS/Jab 3300 in progress
>
> Ron. The good fuel proof tubing is available at CPS for about a buck a
> foot:
> http://mikes.automated-shops.com/cgi-bin/ams/shopzone30.cgi/st_prod.html?p_prodid=157&p_catid=22&sid=9iSKnP0lqJY638U-39103067085.c4
> This is the stuff that Rotax uses as their fuel pump pulse line. It's
> rated for use as fuel line and will not deteriorate with time the way
> Tygon tubing does. We use it in ultralights as the primary fuel line.
> Much better than the blue stuff.
>
> Rick P.
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling fiberglass thickness |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Somebody wrote to me in private and guessed correctly
that I applied all layer pretty quickly on my test
piece. He said that when I do the entire cowling,
I'll have a thicker end-result as the epoxy will drain
less between the fibers when I will apply a new layer
(it will already start to become thicker).
Therefore, I could end-up with about .080"+ for four
layers of material according with him.
Michel
PS: thanks to all for the answers
--- Benford2@aol.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>
> Hi. I just measured my cowling which is a Airlink
> one for a Franklin for my
> 801. It is .097 including the gel coat. In the
> joggle area where the top cowl
> fits into the lower cowl there is no gel coat and it
> is .081. Of course the
> thing is 5 feet long and needs some extra strength .
> I have to admit it is flimsy
> for what is does. It is MUCH better fiberglass
> quality then the Zenith
> supplied glass parts like the tips.
>
>
__________________________________
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling fiberglass thickness |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
I'm using a similar cloth (5.85 oz that they call
6oz). I think I'll go with 4 layers and install
stiffeners (with foam cores) if need be. Thanks to
all!
Someone mentioned (I believe it's Mark) that he
installed an aluminum strip between two layers of
cloth to act as washers for the attachment hardware.
I'll like to know more about this (is this just a
plain strip? How thick? And how many layers of
fiberglass around the strip, for instance.
Michel
--- Randy Stout <r5t0ut@ev1.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout"
> <r5t0ut@ev1.net>
>
> Michel
>
> If I remember correctly from my KR building days,
> the KR used 4 layers of
> 5.85 oz BID (bi-directional cloth) on things like
> leading edges and cowl and
> 2 layers on other places. The BID was cut and
> applied on the bias, or
> diagonally, to add torsional resistance. Depending
> on what kind of resin
> you used, it may take many days for it to cure to
> full strength.
>
> I recently made some modifications to mine. I used 4
> layers of the BID with
> Aeropoxy. It felt flexible for quite a while. I
> don't think it started
> getting real stiff until I applied the filler. If
> you only have a flat
> sheet, I don't think it will ever get very stiff.
> The bends and curves add
> to the strength and stiffness.
>
>
> --
> Randy Stout - San Antonio
> VW powered Zodiac N282RS
> r5t0ut@ev1.net
> http://www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michel Therrien" <mtherr@yahoo.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Cowling fiberglass thickness
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien
> <mtherr@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Hello group,
> >
> > I made a sample piece of fiberglass yesterday and
> I'm
> > surprised by the end result in terms of material
> > thickness and flexibility.
> >
> > The part (a sheet 12" by 20") I made varies from 3
> to
> > 5 layers of 6oz fiberglass material.
> >
> > The 3 layer portion of the sheet is very flexible
> and
> > is approx .032" in thickness.
> >
> > The 4 layer portion is still quite flexible and is
> > approx. .040".
> >
> > I can't really comment on the 5-ply flexibility as
> > that portion is too small, but thickness is around
> > .050" (less than 1/16" of an inch).
> >
> > How thick should the cowling material be? I was
> told
> > to use between 3 and 4 layers of cloth... is this
> what
> > I should use? What stiffness should I expect in
> the
> > final result?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Michel
> >
> >
> > =====
> > ----------------------------
> > Michel Therrien CH601-HD
> > http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
> >
> http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
> > http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
> >
> > __________________________________
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> latest messages.
> List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm
> Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
Message 13
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| Subject: | XL Rudder question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe Kerr" <jkerr@pcweb.net>
Hello List-
Don't tell my wife, but it looks like I screwed up the first part on my first day
of actual building; does this mean I'm officially a homebuilder now? When
laying out the rivet line on the rib flange for the bottom rib 6-T-4-6, I placed
the holes 10mm from down from the rib and 10mm up from the spar as indicated
on page 9 of rudder assembly manual. When directed to locate the two end holes,
I was meticulous in making sure I maintained 10mm from the edge of the flange.
I also maintained the 10mm edge distance on the hole that is drilled 10mm
up from the bottom of the doublers as indicated on page 10. Unfortunately,
drilling 10mm in from the edge of the flange means I put a hole 5mm from the
edge of the spar doublers on the other side. Looks like a new spar, doublers,
and rib are needed. I assume there is no way to salvage any of this??? This
kind of mistake makes me wish I was building from scratch! Thanks-Joe
Message 14
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| Subject: | XL Rudder question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" <don@pcperfect.com>
Joe -
If I understand your situation, you have some extra holes that have only
a 5mm edge distance. If this is the case, then most likely you'll be
fine. You might want to double up and add a rivet near by as well. Also,
get the okay from ZAC, but I'm sure there isn't any builder that doesn't
have at least a few holes that violate the edge distance 'rules'.
For what it's worth, there are going to be spots on the plane where you
just can't get the proper edge distance. In these cases it's just
important to make sure the part is structural sound and move on to the
next piece/part.
In any case, congrats on the project. It's been so long since I did the
rudder - can barely remember anything about it, but that's probably more
to do with getting old...
Regards,
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Kerr [mailto:jkerr@pcweb.net]
Subject: Zenith-List: XL Rudder question
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe Kerr" <jkerr@pcweb.net>
Hello List-
Don't tell my wife, but it looks like I screwed up the first part on my
first day of actual building; does this mean I'm officially a
homebuilder now? When laying out the rivet line on the rib flange for
the bottom rib 6-T-4-6, I placed the holes 10mm from down from the rib
and 10mm up from the spar as indicated on page 9 of rudder assembly
manual. When directed to locate the two end holes, I was meticulous in
making sure I maintained 10mm from the edge of the flange. I also
maintained the 10mm edge distance on the hole that is drilled 10mm up
from the bottom of the doublers as indicated on page 10. Unfortunately,
drilling 10mm in from the edge of the flange means I put a hole 5mm from
the edge of the spar doublers on the other side. Looks like a new spar,
doublers, and rib are needed. I assume there is no way to salvage any
of this??? This kind of mistake makes me wish I was building from
scratch! Thanks-Joe
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: XL Rudder question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
Joe:
I'm building from scratch and I wish I was building from a kit. Wanna
trade? Just kidding. It does not sound like you have a big problem. I
will need some photos, but it sounds like you have just one hole closer than
10mm. Put another rivet between the close one and the next rivet and you
should be golden. If you read further in the plans, it is OK to put some
holes closer than the 10mm edge distance (see the stabilizer drawings and
photo manual for this note).
If I have this wrong, send me some photos so I can see what you did. Also,
send a photo to ZAC before taking advice from a first-time, building from
scratch, really not an expert guy like me. Relax, take a deep breath and
you will find a solution without having to start over.
Email me some photos and maybe it will be clearer what you did.
Take care,
Scott Laughlin
601XL plans-building
www.cooknwithgas.com
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Joe Kerr" <jkerr@pcweb.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: XL Rudder question
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe Kerr" <jkerr@pcweb.net>
Hello List-
Don't tell my wife, but it looks like I screwed up the first part on my
first day of actual building; does this mean I'm officially a homebuilder
now? When laying out the rivet line on the rib flange for the bottom rib
6-T-4-6, I placed the holes 10mm from down from the rib and 10mm up from the
spar as indicated on page 9 of rudder assembly manual. When directed to
locate the two end holes, I was meticulous in making sure I maintained 10mm
from the edge of the flange. I also maintained the 10mm edge distance on
the hole that is drilled 10mm up from the bottom of the doublers as
indicated on page 10. Unfortunately, drilling 10mm in from the edge of the
flange means I put a hole 5mm from the edge of the spar doublers on the
other side. Looks like a new spar, doublers, and rib are needed. I assume
there is no way to salvage any of this??? This kind of mistake makes me
wish I was building from scratch! Thanks-Joe
Message 16
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| Subject: | Aileron and Elevator Gap seals |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Norman Turner <normsflighttraining@bigpond.com>
Hi All, Need your Help,
I would like to know what to use for Aileron and Elevator gap seals on a 601 HDS,
and is there anybody out there who has done it,? and what if any difference
It made, (i.e. ) is it worth doing. Have also asked ZAC for there advice on the
subject.
Cheers Norm.
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