---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 06/08/03: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:17 AM - Cowling fiberglass thickness (Michel Therrien) 2. 06:24 AM - Re: Cowling fiberglass thickness (Benford2@aol.com) 3. 07:03 AM - Re: Cowling fiberglass thickness (Gary Liming) 4. 07:03 AM - Re: Cowling fiberglass thickness (Randy Stout) 5. 08:21 AM - Re: fuel tubing for sight gauge (Ron DeWees) 6. 08:48 AM - Re: fuel tubing for sight gauge (Don Walker) 7. 09:31 AM - Re: What's the Chatter? (The Meiste's) 8. 10:03 AM - 912 EGT's (Greg Ferris) 9. 11:06 AM - Re: fuel tubing for sight gauge (Dave Alberti) 10. 11:32 AM - Re: fuel tubing for sight gauge (Chesterman Family) 11. 03:34 PM - Re: Cowling fiberglass thickness (Michel Therrien) 12. 03:37 PM - Re: Cowling fiberglass thickness (Michel Therrien) 13. 07:21 PM - XL Rudder question (Joe Kerr) 14. 08:32 PM - Re: XL Rudder question (Don Honabach) 15. 09:03 PM - Re: XL Rudder question (Scott Laughlin) 16. 11:14 PM - Aileron and Elevator Gap seals (Norman Turner) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:14 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Zenith-List: Cowling fiberglass thickness --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien Hello group, I made a sample piece of fiberglass yesterday and I'm surprised by the end result in terms of material thickness and flexibility. The part (a sheet 12" by 20") I made varies from 3 to 5 layers of 6oz fiberglass material. The 3 layer portion of the sheet is very flexible and is approx .032" in thickness. The 4 layer portion is still quite flexible and is approx. .040". I can't really comment on the 5-ply flexibility as that portion is too small, but thickness is around .050" (less than 1/16" of an inch). How thick should the cowling material be? I was told to use between 3 and 4 layers of cloth... is this what I should use? What stiffness should I expect in the final result? Thanks! Michel ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:09 AM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cowling fiberglass thickness --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com Hi. I just measured my cowling which is a Airlink one for a Franklin for my 801. It is .097 including the gel coat. In the joggle area where the top cowl fits into the lower cowl there is no gel coat and it is .081. Of course the thing is 5 feet long and needs some extra strength . I have to admit it is flimsy for what is does. It is MUCH better fiberglass quality then the Zenith supplied glass parts like the tips. Ben Haas N801BH. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:43 AM PST US From: Gary Liming Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cowling fiberglass thickness --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming At 09:23 AM 6/8/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > >Hi. I just measured my cowling which is a Airlink one for a Franklin for my >801. ... I have to admit it is flimsy >for what is does. It is MUCH better fiberglass quality then the Zenith >supplied glass parts like the tips. Yeah - I plan on beefing my ZAC cowling up in certain places with a couple of additional layers. It is plain ole resin, so the polyester stuff should work ok. An easy way to see where it is too thin is simply shine a light on the other side! Gary Liming ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:51 AM PST US From: "Randy Stout" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cowling fiberglass thickness --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" Michel If I remember correctly from my KR building days, the KR used 4 layers of 5.85 oz BID (bi-directional cloth) on things like leading edges and cowl and 2 layers on other places. The BID was cut and applied on the bias, or diagonally, to add torsional resistance. Depending on what kind of resin you used, it may take many days for it to cure to full strength. I recently made some modifications to mine. I used 4 layers of the BID with Aeropoxy. It felt flexible for quite a while. I don't think it started getting real stiff until I applied the filler. If you only have a flat sheet, I don't think it will ever get very stiff. The bends and curves add to the strength and stiffness. -- Randy Stout - San Antonio VW powered Zodiac N282RS r5t0ut@ev1.net http://www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Therrien" Subject: Zenith-List: Cowling fiberglass thickness > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien > > Hello group, > > I made a sample piece of fiberglass yesterday and I'm > surprised by the end result in terms of material > thickness and flexibility. > > The part (a sheet 12" by 20") I made varies from 3 to > 5 layers of 6oz fiberglass material. > > The 3 layer portion of the sheet is very flexible and > is approx .032" in thickness. > > The 4 layer portion is still quite flexible and is > approx. .040". > > I can't really comment on the 5-ply flexibility as > that portion is too small, but thickness is around > .050" (less than 1/16" of an inch). > > How thick should the cowling material be? I was told > to use between 3 and 4 layers of cloth... is this what > I should use? What stiffness should I expect in the > final result? > > Thanks! > > Michel > > > ===== > ---------------------------- > Michel Therrien CH601-HD > http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 > http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby > http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby > > __________________________________ > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:21:06 AM PST US From: "Ron DeWees" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel tubing for sight gauge --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" Hi Dave, I got blue Tygron at ACS but didn't see any yellow, but it's too dense to see fuel thru. I will check for yellow also. I plan on sleeving my clear with the next size up of vinyl tubing and also will have a shutoff on both ends of the 8 inches or so of clear so hopefully this will cut the problems down. I dont know what folks are doing with the full sight tube from the header tank. It could dump 8 or 16 gallons in your lap and ruin your whole day : ( Thanks Ron > > Ron, > I used Tygon gasoline rated clear (yellow) tubing. Unless it is gasoline > rated, I wouldn't touch it. The clear tubing supplied by Zenair > disintegrated after three years, leaving me with a cockpit full of fuel - > fortunately when I wasn't flying. > Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:46 AM PST US From: "Don Walker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel tubing for sight gauge Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 10:48:14 -0500 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" I'm using clear vinyl tubing from Lowe's in my sight tube. I changed it out at the end of three years due to yellowing. Upon removal it was still well intact but discoloration had ruined visibility. Don Walker HDS ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron DeWees To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 9:51 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel tubing for sight gauge --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" Hi Dave, I got blue Tygron at ACS but didn't see any yellow, but it's too dense to see fuel thru. I will check for yellow also. I plan on sleeving my clear with the next size up of vinyl tubing and also will have a shutoff on both ends of the 8 inches or so of clear so hopefully this will cut the problems down. I dont know what folks are doing with the full sight tube from the header tank. It could dump 8 or 16 gallons in your lap and ruin your whole day : ( Thanks Ron > > Ron, > I used Tygon gasoline rated clear (yellow) tubing. Unless it is gasoline > rated, I wouldn't touch it. The clear tubing supplied by Zenair > disintegrated after three years, leaving me with a cockpit full of fuel - > fortunately when I wasn't flying. > Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:15 AM PST US From: "The Meiste's" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What's the Chatter? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "The Meiste's" > I'm flying my first belt reduction, a Stratus. After 290 hours and lots of experimentation I have been unable to find a tension setting that eliminates the chattering when I come off the power. Takeoff is always smooth and some times stays that way for a while, but inevitably the chatter creeps in. Cruising straight and level at a particular setting may be smooth and then without warning, here it comes. Usually this is at lower power settings though. It seems less likely to produce this above 4000 rpm. This will be removed after adding power above a certain point, too. I have my pitch at 15 degrees on a Warp drive and cruise 100 at 4150 in summer and 3900 in winter. Flying eighty five or ninety, which I like to do frequently, is where I have the problem..from 3400 thru 3800 rpm. Don, I have the same engine in my HD, and I have my warp prop pitched at 15.5 deg. I also cruise 3,800 to 4,000 rpm (if my engine temps allow). I have never noticed the chatter you describe. Seems I get a slight vibration at around 3,400 rpm but nothing more. Are you sure the belt is to blame? Kelly ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:54 AM PST US From: "Greg Ferris" Subject: Zenith-List: 912 EGT's --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Greg Ferris" I have a 912UL and a Grand Rapids Technologies Engine Monitor. My EGT's have always been on the high side, but I noticed on one flight that one cylinder was getting over 1570. When I orginally programmed the limits in my monitor, Lockwood told me 1620 was the redline for EGT. Just out of curiosity, I called LEAF and asked about my EGT's. I was told the normal range is 1470 to 1562F. To lower the EGT's I moved the clips on the jet needles down to richen the mixture. When I did this, 3 of the cylinder EGT's dropped into the 1430~1480 range, but the right rear cylinder stayed in the 1560~1570 range. I swapped EGT probes to verify that it is not a bad probe. I talked with another Zodiac builder who has experienced the exact same phenomenon ( with a different cylinder). He has done everything imaginable to eliminate the possibility of an air leak in the induction side. He also moved the probe location with no effect. To me that the air/fuel mixture is simply not consistant from cylinder to cylinder. It is a mystery to me why this would only be happening on one cylinder though. I would like to hear from other people using the 912 and 4 EGT probes to see if what I'm experiencing is common or not. Happy Flying, Greg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:06:47 AM PST US From: "Dave Alberti" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: fuel tubing for sight gauge --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" The fuel sight lines should be fitted with an orifice at each end no bigger than 1/16 diameter. This allows the fuel to flow slowly into the sight tube, minimizes wild swings due to G forces and if you get a leak it is much less than you get using a full 1/4 inch tube. A small solid rod of aluminum or brass pushed into the line will work just fine. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ron DeWees Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel tubing for sight gauge --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" I plan on sleeving my clear with the next size up of vinyl tubing and also will have a shutoff on both ends of the 8 inches or so of clear so hopefully this will cut the problems down. I dont know what folks are doing with the full sight tube from the header tank. It could dump 8 or 16 gallons in your lap and ruin your whole ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:53 AM PST US From: Chesterman Family Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel tubing for sight gauge --> Zenith-List message posted by: Chesterman Family my 701 uses fuel line as a sight gauge and I have to replace it every two years or I can't see through the stained gas line. I run premix but fuel line will always discolor so build in a way you can replace hose easily. Dave Chesterman Rick wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick > > Ron DeWees wrote: > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" > > > > Hi Gang, I need to ask your advise yet again. I plan on using a short length of clear tubing from each wing tank into the selector switch on the center console so I can see when the fuel is exhausted. I found blue tubing at ACS, but it's a bit too dense to see fuel through. What are others using for clear tubing? I found something marked as clear fuel tubing at an auto parts store, but there were no details on composition or heat range. Any ideas would be appreciated. > > > > Ron DeWees > > Zenair 601HDS/Jab 3300 in progress > > Ron. The good fuel proof tubing is available at CPS for about a buck a > foot: > http://mikes.automated-shops.com/cgi-bin/ams/shopzone30.cgi/st_prod.html?p_prodid=157&p_catid=22&sid=9iSKnP0lqJY638U-39103067085.c4 > This is the stuff that Rotax uses as their fuel pump pulse line. It's > rated for use as fuel line and will not deteriorate with time the way > Tygon tubing does. We use it in ultralights as the primary fuel line. > Much better than the blue stuff. > > Rick P. > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:05 PM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cowling fiberglass thickness --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien Somebody wrote to me in private and guessed correctly that I applied all layer pretty quickly on my test piece. He said that when I do the entire cowling, I'll have a thicker end-result as the epoxy will drain less between the fibers when I will apply a new layer (it will already start to become thicker). Therefore, I could end-up with about .080"+ for four layers of material according with him. Michel PS: thanks to all for the answers --- Benford2@aol.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > > Hi. I just measured my cowling which is a Airlink > one for a Franklin for my > 801. It is .097 including the gel coat. In the > joggle area where the top cowl > fits into the lower cowl there is no gel coat and it > is .081. Of course the > thing is 5 feet long and needs some extra strength . > I have to admit it is flimsy > for what is does. It is MUCH better fiberglass > quality then the Zenith > supplied glass parts like the tips. > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:08 PM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cowling fiberglass thickness --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien I'm using a similar cloth (5.85 oz that they call 6oz). I think I'll go with 4 layers and install stiffeners (with foam cores) if need be. Thanks to all! Someone mentioned (I believe it's Mark) that he installed an aluminum strip between two layers of cloth to act as washers for the attachment hardware. I'll like to know more about this (is this just a plain strip? How thick? And how many layers of fiberglass around the strip, for instance. Michel --- Randy Stout wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" > > > Michel > > If I remember correctly from my KR building days, > the KR used 4 layers of > 5.85 oz BID (bi-directional cloth) on things like > leading edges and cowl and > 2 layers on other places. The BID was cut and > applied on the bias, or > diagonally, to add torsional resistance. Depending > on what kind of resin > you used, it may take many days for it to cure to > full strength. > > I recently made some modifications to mine. I used 4 > layers of the BID with > Aeropoxy. It felt flexible for quite a while. I > don't think it started > getting real stiff until I applied the filler. If > you only have a flat > sheet, I don't think it will ever get very stiff. > The bends and curves add > to the strength and stiffness. > > > -- > Randy Stout - San Antonio > VW powered Zodiac N282RS > r5t0ut@ev1.net > http://www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Therrien" > To: > Subject: Zenith-List: Cowling fiberglass thickness > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien > > > > > Hello group, > > > > I made a sample piece of fiberglass yesterday and > I'm > > surprised by the end result in terms of material > > thickness and flexibility. > > > > The part (a sheet 12" by 20") I made varies from 3 > to > > 5 layers of 6oz fiberglass material. > > > > The 3 layer portion of the sheet is very flexible > and > > is approx .032" in thickness. > > > > The 4 layer portion is still quite flexible and is > > approx. .040". > > > > I can't really comment on the 5-ply flexibility as > > that portion is too small, but thickness is around > > .050" (less than 1/16" of an inch). > > > > How thick should the cowling material be? I was > told > > to use between 3 and 4 layers of cloth... is this > what > > I should use? What stiffness should I expect in > the > > final result? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Michel > > > > > > ===== > > ---------------------------- > > Michel Therrien CH601-HD > > http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 > > > http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby > > http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby > > > > __________________________________ > > > > > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:40 PM PST US From: "Joe Kerr" Subject: Zenith-List: XL Rudder question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe Kerr" Hello List- Don't tell my wife, but it looks like I screwed up the first part on my first day of actual building; does this mean I'm officially a homebuilder now? When laying out the rivet line on the rib flange for the bottom rib 6-T-4-6, I placed the holes 10mm from down from the rib and 10mm up from the spar as indicated on page 9 of rudder assembly manual. When directed to locate the two end holes, I was meticulous in making sure I maintained 10mm from the edge of the flange. I also maintained the 10mm edge distance on the hole that is drilled 10mm up from the bottom of the doublers as indicated on page 10. Unfortunately, drilling 10mm in from the edge of the flange means I put a hole 5mm from the edge of the spar doublers on the other side. Looks like a new spar, doublers, and rib are needed. I assume there is no way to salvage any of this??? This kind of mistake makes me wish I was building from scratch! Thanks-Joe ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:52 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL Rudder question From: "Don Honabach" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" Joe - If I understand your situation, you have some extra holes that have only a 5mm edge distance. If this is the case, then most likely you'll be fine. You might want to double up and add a rivet near by as well. Also, get the okay from ZAC, but I'm sure there isn't any builder that doesn't have at least a few holes that violate the edge distance 'rules'. For what it's worth, there are going to be spots on the plane where you just can't get the proper edge distance. In these cases it's just important to make sure the part is structural sound and move on to the next piece/part. In any case, congrats on the project. It's been so long since I did the rudder - can barely remember anything about it, but that's probably more to do with getting old... Regards, Don -----Original Message----- From: Joe Kerr [mailto:jkerr@pcweb.net] Subject: Zenith-List: XL Rudder question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe Kerr" Hello List- Don't tell my wife, but it looks like I screwed up the first part on my first day of actual building; does this mean I'm officially a homebuilder now? When laying out the rivet line on the rib flange for the bottom rib 6-T-4-6, I placed the holes 10mm from down from the rib and 10mm up from the spar as indicated on page 9 of rudder assembly manual. When directed to locate the two end holes, I was meticulous in making sure I maintained 10mm from the edge of the flange. I also maintained the 10mm edge distance on the hole that is drilled 10mm up from the bottom of the doublers as indicated on page 10. Unfortunately, drilling 10mm in from the edge of the flange means I put a hole 5mm from the edge of the spar doublers on the other side. Looks like a new spar, doublers, and rib are needed. I assume there is no way to salvage any of this??? This kind of mistake makes me wish I was building from scratch! Thanks-Joe direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:37 PM PST US From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Rudder question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" Joe: I'm building from scratch and I wish I was building from a kit. Wanna trade? Just kidding. It does not sound like you have a big problem. I will need some photos, but it sounds like you have just one hole closer than 10mm. Put another rivet between the close one and the next rivet and you should be golden. If you read further in the plans, it is OK to put some holes closer than the 10mm edge distance (see the stabilizer drawings and photo manual for this note). If I have this wrong, send me some photos so I can see what you did. Also, send a photo to ZAC before taking advice from a first-time, building from scratch, really not an expert guy like me. Relax, take a deep breath and you will find a solution without having to start over. Email me some photos and maybe it will be clearer what you did. Take care, Scott Laughlin 601XL plans-building www.cooknwithgas.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Joe Kerr" Subject: Zenith-List: XL Rudder question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe Kerr" Hello List- Don't tell my wife, but it looks like I screwed up the first part on my first day of actual building; does this mean I'm officially a homebuilder now? When laying out the rivet line on the rib flange for the bottom rib 6-T-4-6, I placed the holes 10mm from down from the rib and 10mm up from the spar as indicated on page 9 of rudder assembly manual. When directed to locate the two end holes, I was meticulous in making sure I maintained 10mm from the edge of the flange. I also maintained the 10mm edge distance on the hole that is drilled 10mm up from the bottom of the doublers as indicated on page 10. Unfortunately, drilling 10mm in from the edge of the flange means I put a hole 5mm from the edge of the spar doublers on the other side. Looks like a new spar, doublers, and rib are needed. I assume there is no way to salvage any of this??? This kind of mistake makes me wish I was building from scratch! Thanks-Joe ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:04 PM PST US From: Norman Turner Subject: Zenith-List: Aileron and Elevator Gap seals --> Zenith-List message posted by: Norman Turner Hi All, Need your Help, I would like to know what to use for Aileron and Elevator gap seals on a 601 HDS, and is there anybody out there who has done it,? and what if any difference It made, (i.e. ) is it worth doing. Have also asked ZAC for there advice on the subject. Cheers Norm.