Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:36 AM - Re: Re: One less Zodiac in the world/Inspecting Valve Guides (Bruce Bockius)
2. 04:31 AM - Re: Re: One less Zodiac in the world/Inspecting Valve Guides (Cy Galley)
3. 06:03 AM - Re: Lightening Holes (David Barth)
4. 09:30 AM - Re: Re: One less Zodiac in the world/Inspecting Valve Guides ()
5. 10:14 AM - Another Zodie down (George Fetzer)
6. 11:00 AM - Re: Another Zodie down (Pinneo, George)
7. 11:11 AM - Re: Another Zodie down (Bill Howerton)
8. 11:55 AM - Auto Pilot information request... (Michael Stempf)
9. 12:21 PM - Re: Another Zodie down (David & Maria Lumgair)
10. 01:28 PM - Re: Electronic gyro article (H. Robert Schoenberger)
11. 01:37 PM - automotive conversion observation (erictauch@attbi.com)
12. 01:46 PM - Re: Another Zodie down (diferent problem) (Gary Gower)
13. 02:05 PM - Re: Auto Pilot information request... (Gary Gower)
14. 02:07 PM - Re: Another Zodie down (Don Honabach)
15. 02:26 PM - Re: Another Zodie down (George Fetzer)
16. 02:32 PM - interiors - 601HD (CBRxxDRV@aol.com)
17. 02:38 PM - Re: Another Zodie down (diferent problem) (George Fetzer)
18. 02:51 PM - Re: automotive conversion observation (Kurt Kingston)
19. 03:02 PM - Re: automotive conversion observation (Grant Corriveau)
20. 03:22 PM - Getting another Zodiac BACK in the air.... (Grant Corriveau)
21. 03:22 PM - Re: Another Zodie down (Grant Corriveau)
22. 03:59 PM - Re: automotive conversion observation (Grant Corriveau)
23. 08:14 PM - Re: Another Zodie down (Philip Polstra)
24. 08:30 PM - What to do with a broken Zenith (or a kit not done) (Hodges, Mitch)
25. 10:36 PM - Re: automotive conversion observation (Phil & Michele Miller)
26. 11:52 PM - Re: automotive conversion observation (Norman Turner)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: One less Zodiac in the world/Inspecting Valve Guides |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Bockius" <bruce@whiteantelopesoftware.com>
EA-81 Valve guide inspection:
I just did this yesterday so it is fresh in my mind. You'll need a
valve spring compressor and what I think they call a 'pneumatic valve
lock'. This 'lock' consists of a fitting that screws into the spark
plug hole on one end and connects to an air compressor on the other end.
This is to keep pressure on the inside of the valve you're working on,
so it won't fall into the cylinder once the valve springs & keeper are
removed. I bought both of these at a 2nd rate auto parts store, so they
shouldn't be hard to find. Incidently yesterday I did this with the
plane outside at the airport with no air or electricity available. A 10
gallon air tank charged to 120psi was adequate for 4 valves.
Remove all spark plugs. Remove valve covers (you'll want something to
catch the oil on the floor). Remove the rocker arm (two 17mm bolts).
The pushrods will now be loose so don't let them fall out. Now connect
air pressure to the cylinder for the valve you're working on with your
pneumatic lock and air tank or compressor. 20 or more psi is fine.
Watch out for the propeller swinging as the piston moves to TDC!
Install the spring compressor on your valve springs. The EA-81 has a
heavy-duty outer spring and a lighter inner spring. My spring
compressor is able to just grab both of them. The inner one is light
enough that you can remove/install the spring without it being
compressed anyways. If your engine is like mine the valve keeper (metal
disk connected to end of valve stem that the springs normally push
against) will be stuck to the end of the stem. The way it is supposed
to work is that once the pressure is off the springs the keeper can be
moved down the valve stem, and two small pieces of metal will fall out
from between the keeper and the stem. These are what hold the keeper to
the stem when the springs are applying pressure. On my engine the
keeper/stem/locks are always stuck together, which requires one to 'tap'
on the end of the valve compressor which will transmit the impact to the
keeper. You might need more air pressure since that is what is holding
the valve against your taps. It generally takes me 10-20 taps for the
keeper/stem/locks to fall apart. If you tap hard enough you can cause
the valve to open enough to let the air out of the cylinder, breaking
your pneumatic lock. Just pull the stem to close the valve again.
Don't let the stem slide all the way into the cylinder or you'll be
removing a head.
Once the locks are removed the keeper and springs can be removed.
You'll be left looking at the valve stem, stem seal (intake valves
only), and valve guide. You can pull off the stem seal to inspect it
and see the naked guide. I use a 1/4" wide metal ruler graduated in
millimeters to measure how for out of the head each guide extends, and
compare this each time check to see if there has been any movement.
When you're satisifed reinstall the seal. Put back the springs (still
compressed with the spring compressor). Push on the keeper about 1/4"
too far and carefully insert those two little locks. Pull the keeper
back and everything will lock together. Release springs. Now repeat 3
more times for the other valves on this side.
Reinstall rocker arms. Make sure the pushrods are seated properly in
the rocker arm and the cam follower before you tighten the two 17mm
bolts or you can buckle them. My Subaru books says 47 ft*lbs is the
propery torque for these bolts. You'll need to reset the valve
clearances when you're done.
It took me about 2 hours to complete both heads, including the valve
clearances which need to be done anyways. I've found bad valve seals a
couple times doing this, so it is not a bad procedure to do even if
you're not worried about the guides. Incidently they were special order
items from my auto parts store that took a week or so to come in.
I first measured mine at 100 hours. 6 of eight were the same
distance, the other two were quite a bit shorter... Might have always
been that way, but since I didn't know I had them replaced.
Unfortunately I don't know what method was used to do this. However
there has been no change in their position for the last 300 hours.
-Bruce/601HD/TDO/Stratus/380 hrs
**************************************************
Bruce Bockius
Black Forest, CO, USA
bruce@WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com
http://www.WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com/zodiac
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> John Karnes
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:36 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: One less Zodiac in the world
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Karnes"
> <jpkarnes@charter.net>
>
> "...and have checked them at each annual and also at each
> oil change (every 50 hours). They have not moved."
>
> What process is used to check the valve guides?
> (Step-by-step, please. I'm mechanically challenged.)
>
> John Karnes
> Port Orchard, WA
>
>
> ==========
> Matronics Forums.
> ==========
> List members.
> ==========
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: One less Zodiac in the world/Inspecting Valve Guides |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Don't need air... Use a rope thru the spark plug hole.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Bockius" <bruce@whiteantelopesoftware.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: One less Zodiac in the world/Inspecting Valve
Guides
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Bockius"
<bruce@whiteantelopesoftware.com>
>
> EA-81 Valve guide inspection:
>
> I just did this yesterday so it is fresh in my mind. You'll need a
> valve spring compressor and what I think they call a 'pneumatic valve
> lock'. This 'lock' consists of a fitting that screws into the spark
> plug hole on one end and connects to an air compressor on the other end.
> This is to keep pressure on the inside of the valve you're working on,
> so it won't fall into the cylinder once the valve springs & keeper are
> removed. I bought both of these at a 2nd rate auto parts store, so they
> shouldn't be hard to find. Incidently yesterday I did this with the
> plane outside at the airport with no air or electricity available. A 10
> gallon air tank charged to 120psi was adequate for 4 valves.
>
> Remove all spark plugs. Remove valve covers (you'll want something to
> catch the oil on the floor). Remove the rocker arm (two 17mm bolts).
> The pushrods will now be loose so don't let them fall out. Now connect
> air pressure to the cylinder for the valve you're working on with your
> pneumatic lock and air tank or compressor. 20 or more psi is fine.
> Watch out for the propeller swinging as the piston moves to TDC!
>
> Install the spring compressor on your valve springs. The EA-81 has a
> heavy-duty outer spring and a lighter inner spring. My spring
> compressor is able to just grab both of them. The inner one is light
> enough that you can remove/install the spring without it being
> compressed anyways. If your engine is like mine the valve keeper (metal
> disk connected to end of valve stem that the springs normally push
> against) will be stuck to the end of the stem. The way it is supposed
> to work is that once the pressure is off the springs the keeper can be
> moved down the valve stem, and two small pieces of metal will fall out
> from between the keeper and the stem. These are what hold the keeper to
> the stem when the springs are applying pressure. On my engine the
> keeper/stem/locks are always stuck together, which requires one to 'tap'
> on the end of the valve compressor which will transmit the impact to the
> keeper. You might need more air pressure since that is what is holding
> the valve against your taps. It generally takes me 10-20 taps for the
> keeper/stem/locks to fall apart. If you tap hard enough you can cause
> the valve to open enough to let the air out of the cylinder, breaking
> your pneumatic lock. Just pull the stem to close the valve again.
> Don't let the stem slide all the way into the cylinder or you'll be
> removing a head.
>
> Once the locks are removed the keeper and springs can be removed.
> You'll be left looking at the valve stem, stem seal (intake valves
> only), and valve guide. You can pull off the stem seal to inspect it
> and see the naked guide. I use a 1/4" wide metal ruler graduated in
> millimeters to measure how for out of the head each guide extends, and
> compare this each time check to see if there has been any movement.
>
> When you're satisifed reinstall the seal. Put back the springs (still
> compressed with the spring compressor). Push on the keeper about 1/4"
> too far and carefully insert those two little locks. Pull the keeper
> back and everything will lock together. Release springs. Now repeat 3
> more times for the other valves on this side.
>
> Reinstall rocker arms. Make sure the pushrods are seated properly in
> the rocker arm and the cam follower before you tighten the two 17mm
> bolts or you can buckle them. My Subaru books says 47 ft*lbs is the
> propery torque for these bolts. You'll need to reset the valve
> clearances when you're done.
>
> It took me about 2 hours to complete both heads, including the valve
> clearances which need to be done anyways. I've found bad valve seals a
> couple times doing this, so it is not a bad procedure to do even if
> you're not worried about the guides. Incidently they were special order
> items from my auto parts store that took a week or so to come in.
>
> I first measured mine at 100 hours. 6 of eight were the same
> distance, the other two were quite a bit shorter... Might have always
> been that way, but since I didn't know I had them replaced.
> Unfortunately I don't know what method was used to do this. However
> there has been no change in their position for the last 300 hours.
>
> -Bruce/601HD/TDO/Stratus/380 hrs
>
> **************************************************
> Bruce Bockius
> Black Forest, CO, USA
> bruce@WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com
> http://www.WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com/zodiac
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> > John Karnes
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:36 PM
> > To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: One less Zodiac in the world
> >
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Karnes"
> > <jpkarnes@charter.net>
> >
> > "...and have checked them at each annual and also at each
> > oil change (every 50 hours). They have not moved."
> >
> > What process is used to check the valve guides?
> > (Step-by-step, please. I'm mechanically challenged.)
> >
> > John Karnes
> > Port Orchard, WA
> >
> >
> > ==========
> > Matronics Forums.
> > ==========
> > List members.
> > ==========
> > ==========
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Lightening Holes |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
Hi Dave.
I believe you are both talking about the same thing.
I believe that the flanging process increased the
diameter of the hole by about 5mm. It is what I
measured in the ones I did. So you cut the hole to
95mmm and it ends up at 100 after flanging or cut the
hole at 65mm and it ends up at 70mm after flanging.
I am building the 601XL from plans and 95 105 and 65
are the three sizescommoly found in the plans. Look at
Scott Laughlin's website. His dies are great. We are
using a similar set.
Happy building
David
> >I assume that this means the hole is 95mm or 105mm.
> Am I correct? Also, how big is >the flange to be
> and what angle is it formed at.
>
> Dave,
> I just measured some lightening holes in my CH640
> bulkheads and most were approximately 100mm in
> diameter. The smaller ones were approximately 70mm
> in diameter. The flange was concave shaped and
=====
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder
Currently making parts.
Stab, elevator and Rudder waiting for skins. Flaps and ailerons ready for inspection.
__________________________________
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: One less Zodiac in the world/Inspecting Valve Guides |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <PAULROD36@msn.com>
Bruce's method sounds excellent. If I may add one thing, for those who can't
conveniently bring air to the engine, you can fall back on "the rope trick".
Pull a plug while the piston is somewhere near BDC, stuff a length of
clothesline rope inside, (leave enough out for a hand hold)and bring the
piston up close to TDC. The rope will fill the top of the cylinder, and hold
the valves up.
Paul Rodriguez
601XL, still on the wings (sigh)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Bockius" <bruce@whiteantelopesoftware.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: One less Zodiac in the world/Inspecting Valve
Guides
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Bockius"
<bruce@whiteantelopesoftware.com>
>
> EA-81 Valve guide inspection:
>
> I just did this yesterday so it is fresh in my mind. You'll need a
> valve spring compressor and what I think they call a 'pneumatic valve
> lock'. This 'lock' consists of a fitting that screws into the spark
> plug hole on one end and connects to an air compressor on the other end.
> This is to keep pressure on the inside of the valve you're working on,
> so it won't fall into the cylinder once the valve springs & keeper are
> removed. I bought both of these at a 2nd rate auto parts store, so they
> shouldn't be hard to find. Incidently yesterday I did this with the
> plane outside at the airport with no air or electricity available. A 10
> gallon air tank charged to 120psi was adequate for 4 valves.
>
> Remove all spark plugs. Remove valve covers (you'll want something to
> catch the oil on the floor). Remove the rocker arm (two 17mm bolts).
> The pushrods will now be loose so don't let them fall out. Now connect
> air pressure to the cylinder for the valve you're working on with your
> pneumatic lock and air tank or compressor. 20 or more psi is fine.
> Watch out for the propeller swinging as the piston moves to TDC!
>
> Install the spring compressor on your valve springs. The EA-81 has a
> heavy-duty outer spring and a lighter inner spring. My spring
> compressor is able to just grab both of them. The inner one is light
> enough that you can remove/install the spring without it being
> compressed anyways. If your engine is like mine the valve keeper (metal
> disk connected to end of valve stem that the springs normally push
> against) will be stuck to the end of the stem. The way it is supposed
> to work is that once the pressure is off the springs the keeper can be
> moved down the valve stem, and two small pieces of metal will fall out
> from between the keeper and the stem. These are what hold the keeper to
> the stem when the springs are applying pressure. On my engine the
> keeper/stem/locks are always stuck together, which requires one to 'tap'
> on the end of the valve compressor which will transmit the impact to the
> keeper. You might need more air pressure since that is what is holding
> the valve against your taps. It generally takes me 10-20 taps for the
> keeper/stem/locks to fall apart. If you tap hard enough you can cause
> the valve to open enough to let the air out of the cylinder, breaking
> your pneumatic lock. Just pull the stem to close the valve again.
> Don't let the stem slide all the way into the cylinder or you'll be
> removing a head.
>
> Once the locks are removed the keeper and springs can be removed.
> You'll be left looking at the valve stem, stem seal (intake valves
> only), and valve guide. You can pull off the stem seal to inspect it
> and see the naked guide. I use a 1/4" wide metal ruler graduated in
> millimeters to measure how for out of the head each guide extends, and
> compare this each time check to see if there has been any movement.
>
> When you're satisifed reinstall the seal. Put back the springs (still
> compressed with the spring compressor). Push on the keeper about 1/4"
> too far and carefully insert those two little locks. Pull the keeper
> back and everything will lock together. Release springs. Now repeat 3
> more times for the other valves on this side.
>
> Reinstall rocker arms. Make sure the pushrods are seated properly in
> the rocker arm and the cam follower before you tighten the two 17mm
> bolts or you can buckle them. My Subaru books says 47 ft*lbs is the
> propery torque for these bolts. You'll need to reset the valve
> clearances when you're done.
>
> It took me about 2 hours to complete both heads, including the valve
> clearances which need to be done anyways. I've found bad valve seals a
> couple times doing this, so it is not a bad procedure to do even if
> you're not worried about the guides. Incidently they were special order
> items from my auto parts store that took a week or so to come in.
>
> I first measured mine at 100 hours. 6 of eight were the same
> distance, the other two were quite a bit shorter... Might have always
> been that way, but since I didn't know I had them replaced.
> Unfortunately I don't know what method was used to do this. However
> there has been no change in their position for the last 300 hours.
>
> -Bruce/601HD/TDO/Stratus/380 hrs
>
> **************************************************
> Bruce Bockius
> Black Forest, CO, USA
> bruce@WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com
> http://www.WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com/zodiac
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> > John Karnes
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:36 PM
> > To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: One less Zodiac in the world
> >
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Karnes"
> > <jpkarnes@charter.net>
> >
> > "...and have checked them at each annual and also at each
> > oil change (every 50 hours). They have not moved."
> >
> > What process is used to check the valve guides?
> > (Step-by-step, please. I'm mechanically challenged.)
> >
> > John Karnes
> > Port Orchard, WA
> >
> >
> > ==========
> > Matronics Forums.
> > ==========
> > List members.
> > ==========
> > ==========
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Another Zodie down |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Fetzer" <gfetzer@peoplepc.com>
I read Philip's narrative of his bad fortune and almost decided to copy
it and change the name. I experienced a total loss of power on a short
flight last Saturday that resulted in a very bad forced landing. The
aircraft is probably a total loss, but I also was fortunate to walk
away. I was also powered by a Subaru nearing the 200 hour mark, but my
failure was caused by one of the few shared components in the dual
ignition systems. The distributor rotor metal contact broke loose as a
result of excessive shaft clearance in the distributor. This was
overlooked at the last service. The resulting forced landing in a muddy
field was not well executed and the aircraft came to rest inverted.
Although there is no undamaged part forward of the baggage shelf, the
cockpit area remained fairly intact.
George Fetzer
N601G
Message 6
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| Subject: | Another Zodie down |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pinneo, George" <george.pinneo@ngc.com>
It's a good landing!
GGP
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Another Zodie down |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" <Bill@Howerton.com>
This ever-growing list of zodiacs with Subaru engines going down with 2 or
less yeasr of service is becoming more than just concerning - it's downright
disturbing. To date has anyone kept track of how many there are out there?
Also how many engine failures out there did not result in crashes? Has
anyone contacted Subaru to discuss this? Finally, what about the other
engines, the Corvair, the Jabiru, the Rotax the Continental and the
Lycoming; have we seen these fail as well?
Message 8
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| Subject: | Auto Pilot information request... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Michael Stempf" <mstempf@earthlink.net>
All,
I was wondering if anyone knew these answers, I think I know them - but
I want to double check. I am looking at installing a S-Tec Single Axis
Auto Pilot.
Also I was wondering (I have not worked with autopilots before), what
recommendations do people have as far as going with either a roll auto
pilot or with a pitch auto pilot?
* We need to know the type of control system you will utilize,
push rod, cable or a combination of both.
* We need to know the full travel from "stop to stop" of the
control system so we can establish the servo RPM and system gain levels.
* We need to know the electrical system voltage of your aircraft
Thanks,
Michael Stempf
601XL - working on the right wing
N-4XL
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Another Zodie down |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair" <dlummy@visi.net>
I have a strange suspicion that if you call subaru they will tell you they
are sorry but their engines are intended for cars not airplanes. No further
discussion. Someone even told me they tried to buy a "crate motor" from a
dealer for an experimental and because of his big mouth - IE Bragging what
it was going to be used for was DECLINED. You think that's why they are in
"experimental" planes? A certified plane will only run you about
$150,000.00 - then you can call Lycoming or whoever... Or even buy a
Lycoming for about $28,000 new and use it. Then if there is a problem the
manufacturer might take interest since that is the intended use of the part.
Ever heard of the guy who tried to trim his hedge by picking the lawnmower
up over his head while it was running. His family tried to sue after it
"turned on him" (Gyroscopic procession....Bet that hurt.) All these
stickers we see on things - Don't use for this, that etc.... That's usually
because someone actually tried it most of the time... PLEASE DON'T CALL
SUBARU - they make a great engine - BUT MINE DOESN'T NEED A STICKER!
Dave
OK - I'm done ranting now.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Howerton" <Bill@Howerton.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" <Bill@Howerton.com>
>
> This ever-growing list of zodiacs with Subaru engines going down with 2 or
> less yeasr of service is becoming more than just concerning - it's
downright
> disturbing. To date has anyone kept track of how many there are out
there?
> Also how many engine failures out there did not result in crashes? Has
> anyone contacted Subaru to discuss this? Finally, what about the other
> engines, the Corvair, the Jabiru, the Rotax the Continental and the
> Lycoming; have we seen these fail as well?
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic gyro article |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "H. Robert Schoenberger" <HRS4@prodigy.net>
Grant - thanks for sharing this interesting article with us. Hap
Schoenberger 701 20%, do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Corriveau" <grantc@ca.inter.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Electronic gyro article
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
>
> http://www.xbow.com/General_info/gyro_guide.htm
>
> This is an interesting article explaining the basics of gyros and the new
> solid state 'stuff' available ... hmmmm
>
> --
> Grant Corriveau
> C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | automotive conversion observation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: erictauch@attbi.com
Greetings,
I have also noticed a lot of posts on engine out situations, especially
recently with all the Subaru troubles.
Years ago when I first started looking at building a kitplane, I wanted to
use an auto-conversion. I researched and studied, and over the years decided
I would not attempt it due to my general lack of experience with engines.
I feel confident about "assembling" a plane and a proven power plant, but
not doing true "experimentation"
But, I still listened and followed along with all the conversion packages.
My own "thru the grapevine" experience is that I hear about a lot of engine out
problems with conversions. This is totally un-scientific, but it seems
I hear about a dis-proportionately high rate of conversion failures. Although
this may be because it is a conversion, thus you hear more about it.
Not trying to start a "conversion email debate", just seems to be my
experience over the years. My theory is that a power-plant installation
has to be tested (like other complex systems) with volume and test hours
to flush out the bugs.
I dont think the conversions get this as much because each one tends to be
a custom istallation and are not in very high numbers.
Eric
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair" <dlummy@visi.net>
>
> I have a strange suspicion that if you call subaru they will tell you they
> are sorry but their engines are intended for cars not airplanes. No further
> discussion. Someone even told me they tried to buy a "crate motor" from a
> dealer for an experimental and because of his big mouth - IE Bragging what
> it was going to be used for was DECLINED. You think that's why they are in
> "experimental" planes? A certified plane will only run you about
> $150,000.00 - then you can call Lycoming or whoever... Or even buy a
> Lycoming for about $28,000 new and use it. Then if there is a problem the
> manufacturer might take interest since that is the intended use of the part.
> Ever heard of the guy who tried to trim his hedge by picking the lawnmower
> up over his head while it was running. His family tried to sue after it
> "turned on him" (Gyroscopic procession....Bet that hurt.) All these
> stickers we see on things - Don't use for this, that etc.... That's usually
> because someone actually tried it most of the time... PLEASE DON'T CALL
> SUBARU - they make a great engine - BUT MINE DOESN'T NEED A STICKER!
>
> Dave
> OK - I'm done ranting now.....
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Howerton" <Bill@Howerton.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" <Bill@Howerton.com>
> >
> > This ever-growing list of zodiacs with Subaru engines going down with 2 or
> > less yeasr of service is becoming more than just concerning - it's
> downright
> > disturbing. To date has anyone kept track of how many there are out
> there?
> > Also how many engine failures out there did not result in crashes? Has
> > anyone contacted Subaru to discuss this? Finally, what about the other
> > engines, the Corvair, the Jabiru, the Rotax the Continental and the
> > Lycoming; have we seen these fail as well?
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Another Zodie down (diferent problem) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Bill,
Hold on, dont panic please. Sorry but this last engine is what
mechanics know as "Careless Assembly", Sorry if it sound rude...
When you rebuild an OLD engine from a car (mainly to use it) as a AERO
conversion, you should check (double check) and/or change all the
moving parts: oil pump, water pump, distributor, camshaft pushers,
distributor gear (when applied) etc. NOT only the bearings, rings and
pistons.
Is like using the old head gaskets to save a few bucks and overheat the
entire engine (several 100.00 bucks bill) because of a water leak.
NOW You Subaru conversion pilots, I advise, should do a few things now:
First, take an emergency landing course from your local utralight
school :-)
Second, practice deadstick landings
Third, avoid flying over places you will not like to land in.
Forth, unite efforts (with the conversion bussiness) to get the valve
problem isolated and solved, dont fight them, they are interested the
same in getting the problem solved as soon as possible (They are
loosing money, the word spreads).
Fifth, when you got the "cure" contact in all lists as much Suby
pilots as possible, to be shure they check and preventive repair their
engine heads.
Sixth, If the owners of the conversion shops start flying with Lycos or
Conts, think in selling you engine ;-) :-) :-)
Saludos
Gary Gower
--- Bill Howerton <Bill@Howerton.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton"
> <Bill@Howerton.com>
>
> This ever-growing list of zodiacs with Subaru engines going down with
> 2 or
> less yeasr of service is becoming more than just concerning - it's
> downright
> disturbing. To date has anyone kept track of how many there are out
> there?
> Also how many engine failures out there did not result in crashes?
> Has
> anyone contacted Subaru to discuss this? Finally, what about the
> other
> engines, the Corvair, the Jabiru, the Rotax the Continental and the
> Lycoming; have we seen these fail as well?
>
__________________________________
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Auto Pilot information request... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Hi Michael,
We are going to install the one from Navaid Devices.
http://www.navaid-devices.com/contact.htm
A local Kitfox has one installed and the owner is very happy.
Ours is arriving in a couple of weeks. I will post when we start
installing it.
Saludos
Gary Gower
701 912S
Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico.
--- Michael Stempf <mstempf@earthlink.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Michael Stempf"
> <mstempf@earthlink.net>
>
> All,
>
> I was wondering if anyone knew these answers, I think I know them -
> but
> I want to double check. I am looking at installing a S-Tec Single
> Axis
> Auto Pilot.
>
> Also I was wondering (I have not worked with autopilots before), what
> recommendations do people have as far as going with either a roll
> auto
> pilot or with a pitch auto pilot?
>
> * We need to know the type of control system you will utilize,
> push rod, cable or a combination of both.
> * We need to know the full travel from "stop to stop" of the
> control system so we can establish the servo RPM and system gain
> levels.
>
> * We need to know the electrical system voltage of your
> aircraft
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Michael Stempf
>
> 601XL - working on the right wing
>
> N-4XL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Message 14
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| Subject: | Another Zodie down |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" <don@pcperfect.com>
George,
Do you have any pictures of the area that failed. This sounds like a
good point for us Subaru owners to periodically check.
Thanks!
Don Honabach
-----Original Message-----
From: George Fetzer [mailto:gfetzer@peoplepc.com]
Subject: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Fetzer"
--> <gfetzer@peoplepc.com>
I read Philip's narrative of his bad fortune and almost decided to copy
it and change the name. I experienced a total loss of power on a short
flight last Saturday that resulted in a very bad forced landing. The
aircraft is probably a total loss, but I also was fortunate to walk
away. I was also powered by a Subaru nearing the 200 hour mark, but my
failure was caused by one of the few shared components in the dual
ignition systems. The distributor rotor metal contact broke loose as a
result of excessive shaft clearance in the distributor. This was
overlooked at the last service. The resulting forced landing in a muddy
field was not well executed and the aircraft came to rest inverted.
Although there is no undamaged part forward of the baggage shelf, the
cockpit area remained fairly intact.
George Fetzer
N601G
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Another Zodie down |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Fetzer" <gfetzer@peoplepc.com>
Dave
As the driver of the most recent casualty, I can not agree with you
more. We are taking an auto engine that is some 20 years old and using
it for a purpose other than the manufacturer intended. I think it
serves the purpose very well. It seems to me that most of the faults
have been due to a replacement of the valve guides. I had the originals
and they never gave me a problem. In fact nothing on this installation
gave me any grief until my 20 year old distributor failed. Even this
was not a total failure as such. If I had perhaps been more observant
when I last replaced the rotor, I would still be flying instead of
filing reports. Let's not blame Subaru here. I have every intention of
putting this or another Soob in my next plane.
George Fetzer
-----Original Message-----
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair"
<dlummy@visi.net>
I have a strange suspicion that if you call subaru they will tell you
they
are sorry but their engines are intended for cars not airplanes. ...
PLEASE DON'T CALL
SUBARU - they make a great engine - BUT MINE DOESN'T NEED A STICKER!
Dave
OK - I'm done ranting now.....
Message 16
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| Subject: | interiors - 601HD |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: CBRxxDRV@aol.com
Well as I ponder on my project plane I have come up with 2 companys
that make an interiors for for the 601 series. Skyshops and Oregon.
Any other companys??
TIA
Sal Capra
Lakeland, FL
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html">My Home Page
http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html
Message 17
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| Subject: | Another Zodie down (diferent problem) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Fetzer" <gfetzer@peoplepc.com>
And to you Gary I must say, I am just a little offended that you want to
categorize me as a careless mechanic when you have little or no
knowledge of which you speak. Even the Lyc and Cont engine rebuilders
reuse parts that meet certain wear tolerances at rebuild time. That is
not to say that the same part will meet this tolerance over it's
lifetime. If we all had unlimited budgets, then things might be
different. There is a vast difference between a serviceable used part
and a used gasket. If you don't care to fly behind a Soob, then by all
means don't. But maybe some of us do. And I for one will rebuild and
fly again behind another Subaru. As for training, no one can ever get
enough regardless of what you fly. And last, under the tools menu you
will find spell check. Try it.
George
-----Original Message-----
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Bill,
Hold on, dont panic please. Sorry but this last engine is what
mechanics know as "Careless Assembly", Sorry if it sound rude...
When you rebuild an OLD engine from a car (mainly to use it) as a AERO
conversion, you should check (double check) and/or change all the
moving parts: oil pump, water pump, distributor, camshaft pushers,
distributor gear (when applied) etc. NOT only the bearings, rings and
pistons.
Is like using the old head gaskets to save a few bucks and overheat the
entire engine (several 100.00 bucks bill) because of a water leak.
NOW You Subaru conversion pilots, I advise, should do a few things now:
First, take an emergency landing course from your local utralight
school :-)
Second, practice deadstick landings
Third, avoid flying over places you will not like to land in.
Forth, unite efforts (with the conversion bussiness) to get the valve
problem isolated and solved, dont fight them, they are interested the
same in getting the problem solved as soon as possible (They are
loosing money, the word spreads).
Fifth, when you got the "cure" contact in all lists as much Suby
pilots as possible, to be shure they check and preventive repair their
engine heads.
Sixth, If the owners of the conversion shops start flying with Lycos or
Conts, think in selling you engine ;-) :-) :-)
Saludos
Gary Gower
Message 18
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| Subject: | automotive conversion observation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Kurt Kingston <Kurt@cfirepro.com>
Agreeing with Eric but would like to offer an opinion that will get some
mad, but...
How many of you know truly skilled mechanics that are also good pilots, or
even interested in being good pilots? And the reverse, truly good pilots
that are also skilled mechanics, willing to do all of the
documentation,etc.?
If a person is inclined to be a kit builder vs. scratch builder because he
has marginal mechanical abilities (like me), or to save build time so he can
go flying, aren't those also good reasons not to get involved in a
rebuild/auto conversion project?
Thanks
Kurt
Challenger 2 on PJ amphibs with a Rotax 582 thinking about an XL amphib
project but scared of the canopy.
-----Original Message-----
From: erictauch@attbi.com [mailto:erictauch@attbi.com]
Subject: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation
--> Zenith-List message posted by: erictauch@attbi.com
Greetings,
I have also noticed a lot of posts on engine out situations, especially
recently with all the Subaru troubles.
Years ago when I first started looking at building a kitplane, I wanted to
use an auto-conversion. I researched and studied, and over the years
decided
I would not attempt it due to my general lack of experience with engines.
I feel confident about "assembling" a plane and a proven power plant, but
not doing true "experimentation"
B
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: automotive conversion observation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
...
> My theory is that a power-plant installation
> has to be tested (like other complex systems) with volume and test hours
> to flush out the bugs.
> I dont think the conversions get this as much because each one tends to be
> a custom istallation and are not in very high numbers.
>
> Eric
Eric,
I agree with your theory. I have a CAM100 (Honda conversion) and while I
believe it is a good engine, I admit that running a more 'unique' engine
like this, adds another level of complexity to my aircraft.
If I'd spent the extra 10,000 or so for the Rotax, I'd be able to just drop
the aircraft off at the local Rotax agent for annual tune-ups, troubles,
etc... But then, would I be able to afford that? ;-)
The main thing that I'd probably benefit from is the many-thousands of hours
of experience that the engine has, and the information base that exists so I
don't have to be the first to experience the problem.
So, my recommendation is: IF you like having your hands in the machinery and
solving problems, making solutions, etc. -- auto conversion; IF youre less
mechanically inclined and prefer a higher flight/maintenance ratio --
aircraft engine. FWIW
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 20
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| Subject: | Getting another Zodiac BACK in the air.... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
After a hiatus (moving, life, etc..) I'm starting to fix an ignition problem
with my CAM100. After a couple of incidents of power loss in flight, I was
finally able to pinpoint one channel as the culprit.
The engine manufacturer helped me troubleshoot the system and wierdly - the
problem has to be in one of the Hall Effect sensors (or the lead/wires from
there to the computer). The problem is intermittant - very hard to pinpoint
- but HEAT seems to play a role in causing the failure as it always happened
under conditions when the engine was hot.
So, I'm thinking about a faulty pin, poor connection, something like that.
However, today when I was inspecting the magnets as they move past the
sensors, I wondered, what would happen if the expansion of the various parts
actually caused the gap to get too small?
Question: If a Hall Effect sensor should actually come in contact with the
magnet as it sweeps past on the flywheel, would this interfere with the
signal?
I originally wondered the opposite - could my mangets be too far away - but
that doesn't add up as the failures were always at higher rpm (i.e.
cruise/takeoff power when the signal is strongest), and physically the
sensors are very close -- maybe too close?.
So, my BIG JOB to gain access to these sensors and replace them with new
ones from the factory will commence in a few days when I get back from work.
Anyone have any previous experience with failures in Hall Effect sensors?
The engine manufacturer tells me that they've never seen this one before.
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Of course when I started the engine in the driveway today, it started right
up and runs like a top on both channels... tempting to just go flying! BUT
after experiencing that deafening silence of a dying engine in flight, I
WILL NOT fly it until I'm reasonable sure I've found/cured the problem.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Another Zodie down |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> ...the aircraft came to rest inverted.
> Although there is no undamaged part forward of the baggage shelf, the
> cockpit area remained fairly intact.
>
> George Fetzer
> N601G
Well done George -- if you survived to tell the tale, then you did the main
things right (i.e. Fly the aircraft to the ground rather than stall/spin in,
etc. etc...). Sorry to hear about the damage....
Keep us posted as to your (and the aircraft's) recovery, please.
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: automotive conversion observation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
I'm slowly rebuilding my mailing list since I lost most of it last year...
sorry to 'spam' the list:
Dr. Doug Pahanke -- are you out there? Please send me a note at my new
address:
grantc@ca.inter.net
thanks all,
do not archive
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 23
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| Subject: | Another Zodie down |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra" <ppolstra@mindspring.com>
Wow! I'm glad that you also walked away. I still haven't gotten to tear
down my engine and diagnose the problem. The recovery truck got stuck
yesterday trying to get it. At least you know what happened in your case.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Fetzer" <gfetzer@peoplepc.com>
I read Philip's narrative of his bad fortune and almost decided to copy
it and change the name. I experienced a total loss of power on a short
flight last Saturday that resulted in a very bad forced landing. The
aircraft is probably a total loss, but I also was fortunate to walk
away.
Message 24
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| Subject: | What to do with a broken Zenith (or a kit not done) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hodges, Mitch" <n601mh@bellsouth.net>
Given the recent discussions with folks that have lost their beloved
aircraft, I thought you might find this website interesting. Assuming you
can get it from the insurance company, perhaps you could create a keepsake
for yourself by imitating some of these ideas from "big iron" scrap pieces.
I particularly like the DC-9 horizontal stabilizer desk (if I could afford
it!!). Probably wouldn't be too difficult to do the same with a Zenith
outboard wing, which is a little shorter.
http://www.motoart.com/
I include myself withall those that say "Thank God" you are safe after your
challenges. Hope to see you in the skies again, and look forward to finding
out how the replacement projects go!
Mitch Hodges
Message 25
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| Subject: | automotive conversion observation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller" <millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
Grant,
I wish it was that easy. I have a 912S with only 72 hours on it an it is
an absolute pig to start when cold. There is no Rotax service agent here
in New Zealand and we have been trying to solve this one for 14 months
with no success. The flight/troubleshooting ratio is probably about 1/20
since I have owned this plane. V-e-r-y f-r-u-s-t-r-a-t-i-n-g !!!!!
Cheers,
Phil Miller
New Zealand (701)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Grant
Corriveau
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation
>If I'd spent the extra 10,000 or so for the Rotax, I'd be able to just
drop the aircraft off at the local Rotax agent for annual tune-ups,
troubles, etc... But then, would I be able to afford that? ;-)
>The main thing that I'd probably benefit from is the many-thousands of
hours of experience that the engine has, and the information base that
exists so I don't have to be the first to experience the problem.
>So, my recommendation is: IF you like having your hands in the
machinery and solving problems, making solutions, etc. -- auto
conversion; IF youre less mechanically inclined and prefer a higher
flight/maintenance ratio -- aircraft engine. FWIW
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: automotive conversion observation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Norman Turner" <normsflighttraining@bigpond.com>
Phil, I can understand your frustration in this matter as it has happened to
me !!! some time ago when delivering a 701 from W.A. to the N.T. the dam
thing would never start especially when cold , delivered the aircraft and
then went home to Darwin . It worried me all the same and then delivered the
same aircraft to a new owner , starting problem still there. So the new
owner a Mr Bill Lowther, has found the problem and I suggest that you ring
him at a respectable time of an evening and I'm sure that your problem will
be solved, his phone number is 0269472540 in NSW Australia. Hope this info
is of use to you. Norm turner 601 HDS 912. Cheers and safe flying.A pic of
the aircraft attached and mine.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil & Michele Miller" <millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller"
<millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
>
> Grant,
>
> I wish it was that easy. I have a 912S with only 72 hours on it an it is
> an absolute pig to start when cold. There is no Rotax service agent here
> in New Zealand and we have been trying to solve this one for 14 months
> with no success. The flight/troubleshooting ratio is probably about 1/20
> since I have owned this plane. V-e-r-y f-r-u-s-t-r-a-t-i-n-g !!!!!
>
> Cheers,
> Phil Miller
> New Zealand (701)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Grant
> Corriveau
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation
>
>
> >If I'd spent the extra 10,000 or so for the Rotax, I'd be able to just
> drop the aircraft off at the local Rotax agent for annual tune-ups,
> troubles, etc... But then, would I be able to afford that? ;-)
>
> >The main thing that I'd probably benefit from is the many-thousands of
> hours of experience that the engine has, and the information base that
> exists so I don't have to be the first to experience the problem.
>
> >So, my recommendation is: IF you like having your hands in the
> machinery and solving problems, making solutions, etc. -- auto
> conversion; IF youre less mechanically inclined and prefer a higher
> flight/maintenance ratio -- aircraft engine. FWIW
>
> --
> Grant Corriveau
> C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
>
>
> direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>
>
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