---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/19/03: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:36 AM - Re: Re: One less Zodiac in the world/Inspecting Valve Guides (Bruce Bockius) 2. 04:31 AM - Re: Re: One less Zodiac in the world/Inspecting Valve Guides (Cy Galley) 3. 06:03 AM - Re: Lightening Holes (David Barth) 4. 09:30 AM - Re: Re: One less Zodiac in the world/Inspecting Valve Guides () 5. 10:14 AM - Another Zodie down (George Fetzer) 6. 11:00 AM - Re: Another Zodie down (Pinneo, George) 7. 11:11 AM - Re: Another Zodie down (Bill Howerton) 8. 11:55 AM - Auto Pilot information request... (Michael Stempf) 9. 12:21 PM - Re: Another Zodie down (David & Maria Lumgair) 10. 01:28 PM - Re: Electronic gyro article (H. Robert Schoenberger) 11. 01:37 PM - automotive conversion observation (erictauch@attbi.com) 12. 01:46 PM - Re: Another Zodie down (diferent problem) (Gary Gower) 13. 02:05 PM - Re: Auto Pilot information request... (Gary Gower) 14. 02:07 PM - Re: Another Zodie down (Don Honabach) 15. 02:26 PM - Re: Another Zodie down (George Fetzer) 16. 02:32 PM - interiors - 601HD (CBRxxDRV@aol.com) 17. 02:38 PM - Re: Another Zodie down (diferent problem) (George Fetzer) 18. 02:51 PM - Re: automotive conversion observation (Kurt Kingston) 19. 03:02 PM - Re: automotive conversion observation (Grant Corriveau) 20. 03:22 PM - Getting another Zodiac BACK in the air.... (Grant Corriveau) 21. 03:22 PM - Re: Another Zodie down (Grant Corriveau) 22. 03:59 PM - Re: automotive conversion observation (Grant Corriveau) 23. 08:14 PM - Re: Another Zodie down (Philip Polstra) 24. 08:30 PM - What to do with a broken Zenith (or a kit not done) (Hodges, Mitch) 25. 10:36 PM - Re: automotive conversion observation (Phil & Michele Miller) 26. 11:52 PM - Re: automotive conversion observation (Norman Turner) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:36:40 AM PST US From: "Bruce Bockius" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: One less Zodiac in the world/Inspecting Valve Guides --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Bockius" EA-81 Valve guide inspection: I just did this yesterday so it is fresh in my mind. You'll need a valve spring compressor and what I think they call a 'pneumatic valve lock'. This 'lock' consists of a fitting that screws into the spark plug hole on one end and connects to an air compressor on the other end. This is to keep pressure on the inside of the valve you're working on, so it won't fall into the cylinder once the valve springs & keeper are removed. I bought both of these at a 2nd rate auto parts store, so they shouldn't be hard to find. Incidently yesterday I did this with the plane outside at the airport with no air or electricity available. A 10 gallon air tank charged to 120psi was adequate for 4 valves. Remove all spark plugs. Remove valve covers (you'll want something to catch the oil on the floor). Remove the rocker arm (two 17mm bolts). The pushrods will now be loose so don't let them fall out. Now connect air pressure to the cylinder for the valve you're working on with your pneumatic lock and air tank or compressor. 20 or more psi is fine. Watch out for the propeller swinging as the piston moves to TDC! Install the spring compressor on your valve springs. The EA-81 has a heavy-duty outer spring and a lighter inner spring. My spring compressor is able to just grab both of them. The inner one is light enough that you can remove/install the spring without it being compressed anyways. If your engine is like mine the valve keeper (metal disk connected to end of valve stem that the springs normally push against) will be stuck to the end of the stem. The way it is supposed to work is that once the pressure is off the springs the keeper can be moved down the valve stem, and two small pieces of metal will fall out from between the keeper and the stem. These are what hold the keeper to the stem when the springs are applying pressure. On my engine the keeper/stem/locks are always stuck together, which requires one to 'tap' on the end of the valve compressor which will transmit the impact to the keeper. You might need more air pressure since that is what is holding the valve against your taps. It generally takes me 10-20 taps for the keeper/stem/locks to fall apart. If you tap hard enough you can cause the valve to open enough to let the air out of the cylinder, breaking your pneumatic lock. Just pull the stem to close the valve again. Don't let the stem slide all the way into the cylinder or you'll be removing a head. Once the locks are removed the keeper and springs can be removed. You'll be left looking at the valve stem, stem seal (intake valves only), and valve guide. You can pull off the stem seal to inspect it and see the naked guide. I use a 1/4" wide metal ruler graduated in millimeters to measure how for out of the head each guide extends, and compare this each time check to see if there has been any movement. When you're satisifed reinstall the seal. Put back the springs (still compressed with the spring compressor). Push on the keeper about 1/4" too far and carefully insert those two little locks. Pull the keeper back and everything will lock together. Release springs. Now repeat 3 more times for the other valves on this side. Reinstall rocker arms. Make sure the pushrods are seated properly in the rocker arm and the cam follower before you tighten the two 17mm bolts or you can buckle them. My Subaru books says 47 ft*lbs is the propery torque for these bolts. You'll need to reset the valve clearances when you're done. It took me about 2 hours to complete both heads, including the valve clearances which need to be done anyways. I've found bad valve seals a couple times doing this, so it is not a bad procedure to do even if you're not worried about the guides. Incidently they were special order items from my auto parts store that took a week or so to come in. I first measured mine at 100 hours. 6 of eight were the same distance, the other two were quite a bit shorter... Might have always been that way, but since I didn't know I had them replaced. Unfortunately I don't know what method was used to do this. However there has been no change in their position for the last 300 hours. -Bruce/601HD/TDO/Stratus/380 hrs ************************************************** Bruce Bockius Black Forest, CO, USA bruce@WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com http://www.WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com/zodiac > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > John Karnes > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:36 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: One less Zodiac in the world > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Karnes" > > > "...and have checked them at each annual and also at each > oil change (every 50 hours). They have not moved." > > What process is used to check the valve guides? > (Step-by-step, please. I'm mechanically challenged.) > > John Karnes > Port Orchard, WA > > > ========== > Matronics Forums. > ========== > List members. > ========== > ========== > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:32 AM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: One less Zodiac in the world/Inspecting Valve Guides --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Don't need air... Use a rope thru the spark plug hole. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Bockius" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: One less Zodiac in the world/Inspecting Valve Guides > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Bockius" > > EA-81 Valve guide inspection: > > I just did this yesterday so it is fresh in my mind. You'll need a > valve spring compressor and what I think they call a 'pneumatic valve > lock'. This 'lock' consists of a fitting that screws into the spark > plug hole on one end and connects to an air compressor on the other end. > This is to keep pressure on the inside of the valve you're working on, > so it won't fall into the cylinder once the valve springs & keeper are > removed. I bought both of these at a 2nd rate auto parts store, so they > shouldn't be hard to find. Incidently yesterday I did this with the > plane outside at the airport with no air or electricity available. A 10 > gallon air tank charged to 120psi was adequate for 4 valves. > > Remove all spark plugs. Remove valve covers (you'll want something to > catch the oil on the floor). Remove the rocker arm (two 17mm bolts). > The pushrods will now be loose so don't let them fall out. Now connect > air pressure to the cylinder for the valve you're working on with your > pneumatic lock and air tank or compressor. 20 or more psi is fine. > Watch out for the propeller swinging as the piston moves to TDC! > > Install the spring compressor on your valve springs. The EA-81 has a > heavy-duty outer spring and a lighter inner spring. My spring > compressor is able to just grab both of them. The inner one is light > enough that you can remove/install the spring without it being > compressed anyways. If your engine is like mine the valve keeper (metal > disk connected to end of valve stem that the springs normally push > against) will be stuck to the end of the stem. The way it is supposed > to work is that once the pressure is off the springs the keeper can be > moved down the valve stem, and two small pieces of metal will fall out > from between the keeper and the stem. These are what hold the keeper to > the stem when the springs are applying pressure. On my engine the > keeper/stem/locks are always stuck together, which requires one to 'tap' > on the end of the valve compressor which will transmit the impact to the > keeper. You might need more air pressure since that is what is holding > the valve against your taps. It generally takes me 10-20 taps for the > keeper/stem/locks to fall apart. If you tap hard enough you can cause > the valve to open enough to let the air out of the cylinder, breaking > your pneumatic lock. Just pull the stem to close the valve again. > Don't let the stem slide all the way into the cylinder or you'll be > removing a head. > > Once the locks are removed the keeper and springs can be removed. > You'll be left looking at the valve stem, stem seal (intake valves > only), and valve guide. You can pull off the stem seal to inspect it > and see the naked guide. I use a 1/4" wide metal ruler graduated in > millimeters to measure how for out of the head each guide extends, and > compare this each time check to see if there has been any movement. > > When you're satisifed reinstall the seal. Put back the springs (still > compressed with the spring compressor). Push on the keeper about 1/4" > too far and carefully insert those two little locks. Pull the keeper > back and everything will lock together. Release springs. Now repeat 3 > more times for the other valves on this side. > > Reinstall rocker arms. Make sure the pushrods are seated properly in > the rocker arm and the cam follower before you tighten the two 17mm > bolts or you can buckle them. My Subaru books says 47 ft*lbs is the > propery torque for these bolts. You'll need to reset the valve > clearances when you're done. > > It took me about 2 hours to complete both heads, including the valve > clearances which need to be done anyways. I've found bad valve seals a > couple times doing this, so it is not a bad procedure to do even if > you're not worried about the guides. Incidently they were special order > items from my auto parts store that took a week or so to come in. > > I first measured mine at 100 hours. 6 of eight were the same > distance, the other two were quite a bit shorter... Might have always > been that way, but since I didn't know I had them replaced. > Unfortunately I don't know what method was used to do this. However > there has been no change in their position for the last 300 hours. > > -Bruce/601HD/TDO/Stratus/380 hrs > > ************************************************** > Bruce Bockius > Black Forest, CO, USA > bruce@WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com > http://www.WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com/zodiac > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > > John Karnes > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:36 PM > > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: One less Zodiac in the world > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Karnes" > > > > > > "...and have checked them at each annual and also at each > > oil change (every 50 hours). They have not moved." > > > > What process is used to check the valve guides? > > (Step-by-step, please. I'm mechanically challenged.) > > > > John Karnes > > Port Orchard, WA > > > > > > ========== > > Matronics Forums. > > ========== > > List members. > > ========== > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:29 AM PST US From: David Barth Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lightening Holes --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth Hi Dave. I believe you are both talking about the same thing. I believe that the flanging process increased the diameter of the hole by about 5mm. It is what I measured in the ones I did. So you cut the hole to 95mmm and it ends up at 100 after flanging or cut the hole at 65mm and it ends up at 70mm after flanging. I am building the 601XL from plans and 95 105 and 65 are the three sizescommoly found in the plans. Look at Scott Laughlin's website. His dies are great. We are using a similar set. Happy building David > >I assume that this means the hole is 95mm or 105mm. > Am I correct? Also, how big is >the flange to be > and what angle is it formed at. > > Dave, > I just measured some lightening holes in my CH640 > bulkheads and most were approximately 100mm in > diameter. The smaller ones were approximately 70mm > in diameter. The flange was concave shaped and ===== David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder Currently making parts. Stab, elevator and Rudder waiting for skins. Flaps and ailerons ready for inspection. __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:35 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: One less Zodiac in the world/Inspecting Valve Guides --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bruce's method sounds excellent. If I may add one thing, for those who can't conveniently bring air to the engine, you can fall back on "the rope trick". Pull a plug while the piston is somewhere near BDC, stuff a length of clothesline rope inside, (leave enough out for a hand hold)and bring the piston up close to TDC. The rope will fill the top of the cylinder, and hold the valves up. Paul Rodriguez 601XL, still on the wings (sigh) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Bockius" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: One less Zodiac in the world/Inspecting Valve Guides > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Bockius" > > EA-81 Valve guide inspection: > > I just did this yesterday so it is fresh in my mind. You'll need a > valve spring compressor and what I think they call a 'pneumatic valve > lock'. This 'lock' consists of a fitting that screws into the spark > plug hole on one end and connects to an air compressor on the other end. > This is to keep pressure on the inside of the valve you're working on, > so it won't fall into the cylinder once the valve springs & keeper are > removed. I bought both of these at a 2nd rate auto parts store, so they > shouldn't be hard to find. Incidently yesterday I did this with the > plane outside at the airport with no air or electricity available. A 10 > gallon air tank charged to 120psi was adequate for 4 valves. > > Remove all spark plugs. Remove valve covers (you'll want something to > catch the oil on the floor). Remove the rocker arm (two 17mm bolts). > The pushrods will now be loose so don't let them fall out. Now connect > air pressure to the cylinder for the valve you're working on with your > pneumatic lock and air tank or compressor. 20 or more psi is fine. > Watch out for the propeller swinging as the piston moves to TDC! > > Install the spring compressor on your valve springs. The EA-81 has a > heavy-duty outer spring and a lighter inner spring. My spring > compressor is able to just grab both of them. The inner one is light > enough that you can remove/install the spring without it being > compressed anyways. If your engine is like mine the valve keeper (metal > disk connected to end of valve stem that the springs normally push > against) will be stuck to the end of the stem. The way it is supposed > to work is that once the pressure is off the springs the keeper can be > moved down the valve stem, and two small pieces of metal will fall out > from between the keeper and the stem. These are what hold the keeper to > the stem when the springs are applying pressure. On my engine the > keeper/stem/locks are always stuck together, which requires one to 'tap' > on the end of the valve compressor which will transmit the impact to the > keeper. You might need more air pressure since that is what is holding > the valve against your taps. It generally takes me 10-20 taps for the > keeper/stem/locks to fall apart. If you tap hard enough you can cause > the valve to open enough to let the air out of the cylinder, breaking > your pneumatic lock. Just pull the stem to close the valve again. > Don't let the stem slide all the way into the cylinder or you'll be > removing a head. > > Once the locks are removed the keeper and springs can be removed. > You'll be left looking at the valve stem, stem seal (intake valves > only), and valve guide. You can pull off the stem seal to inspect it > and see the naked guide. I use a 1/4" wide metal ruler graduated in > millimeters to measure how for out of the head each guide extends, and > compare this each time check to see if there has been any movement. > > When you're satisifed reinstall the seal. Put back the springs (still > compressed with the spring compressor). Push on the keeper about 1/4" > too far and carefully insert those two little locks. Pull the keeper > back and everything will lock together. Release springs. Now repeat 3 > more times for the other valves on this side. > > Reinstall rocker arms. Make sure the pushrods are seated properly in > the rocker arm and the cam follower before you tighten the two 17mm > bolts or you can buckle them. My Subaru books says 47 ft*lbs is the > propery torque for these bolts. You'll need to reset the valve > clearances when you're done. > > It took me about 2 hours to complete both heads, including the valve > clearances which need to be done anyways. I've found bad valve seals a > couple times doing this, so it is not a bad procedure to do even if > you're not worried about the guides. Incidently they were special order > items from my auto parts store that took a week or so to come in. > > I first measured mine at 100 hours. 6 of eight were the same > distance, the other two were quite a bit shorter... Might have always > been that way, but since I didn't know I had them replaced. > Unfortunately I don't know what method was used to do this. However > there has been no change in their position for the last 300 hours. > > -Bruce/601HD/TDO/Stratus/380 hrs > > ************************************************** > Bruce Bockius > Black Forest, CO, USA > bruce@WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com > http://www.WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com/zodiac > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > > John Karnes > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:36 PM > > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: One less Zodiac in the world > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Karnes" > > > > > > "...and have checked them at each annual and also at each > > oil change (every 50 hours). They have not moved." > > > > What process is used to check the valve guides? > > (Step-by-step, please. I'm mechanically challenged.) > > > > John Karnes > > Port Orchard, WA > > > > > > ========== > > Matronics Forums. > > ========== > > List members. > > ========== > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:14:09 AM PST US From: "George Fetzer" Subject: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Fetzer" I read Philip's narrative of his bad fortune and almost decided to copy it and change the name. I experienced a total loss of power on a short flight last Saturday that resulted in a very bad forced landing. The aircraft is probably a total loss, but I also was fortunate to walk away. I was also powered by a Subaru nearing the 200 hour mark, but my failure was caused by one of the few shared components in the dual ignition systems. The distributor rotor metal contact broke loose as a result of excessive shaft clearance in the distributor. This was overlooked at the last service. The resulting forced landing in a muddy field was not well executed and the aircraft came to rest inverted. Although there is no undamaged part forward of the baggage shelf, the cockpit area remained fairly intact. George Fetzer N601G ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:00:34 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down From: "Pinneo, George" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pinneo, George" It's a good landing! GGP ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:11:33 AM PST US From: "Bill Howerton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" This ever-growing list of zodiacs with Subaru engines going down with 2 or less yeasr of service is becoming more than just concerning - it's downright disturbing. To date has anyone kept track of how many there are out there? Also how many engine failures out there did not result in crashes? Has anyone contacted Subaru to discuss this? Finally, what about the other engines, the Corvair, the Jabiru, the Rotax the Continental and the Lycoming; have we seen these fail as well? ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:55:29 AM PST US From: "Michael Stempf" Subject: Zenith-List: Auto Pilot information request... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Michael Stempf" All, I was wondering if anyone knew these answers, I think I know them - but I want to double check. I am looking at installing a S-Tec Single Axis Auto Pilot. Also I was wondering (I have not worked with autopilots before), what recommendations do people have as far as going with either a roll auto pilot or with a pitch auto pilot? * We need to know the type of control system you will utilize, push rod, cable or a combination of both. * We need to know the full travel from "stop to stop" of the control system so we can establish the servo RPM and system gain levels. * We need to know the electrical system voltage of your aircraft Thanks, Michael Stempf 601XL - working on the right wing N-4XL ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:21:34 PM PST US From: "David & Maria Lumgair" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair" I have a strange suspicion that if you call subaru they will tell you they are sorry but their engines are intended for cars not airplanes. No further discussion. Someone even told me they tried to buy a "crate motor" from a dealer for an experimental and because of his big mouth - IE Bragging what it was going to be used for was DECLINED. You think that's why they are in "experimental" planes? A certified plane will only run you about $150,000.00 - then you can call Lycoming or whoever... Or even buy a Lycoming for about $28,000 new and use it. Then if there is a problem the manufacturer might take interest since that is the intended use of the part. Ever heard of the guy who tried to trim his hedge by picking the lawnmower up over his head while it was running. His family tried to sue after it "turned on him" (Gyroscopic procession....Bet that hurt.) All these stickers we see on things - Don't use for this, that etc.... That's usually because someone actually tried it most of the time... PLEASE DON'T CALL SUBARU - they make a great engine - BUT MINE DOESN'T NEED A STICKER! Dave OK - I'm done ranting now..... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Howerton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" > > This ever-growing list of zodiacs with Subaru engines going down with 2 or > less yeasr of service is becoming more than just concerning - it's downright > disturbing. To date has anyone kept track of how many there are out there? > Also how many engine failures out there did not result in crashes? Has > anyone contacted Subaru to discuss this? Finally, what about the other > engines, the Corvair, the Jabiru, the Rotax the Continental and the > Lycoming; have we seen these fail as well? > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:41 PM PST US From: "H. Robert Schoenberger" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electronic gyro article --> Zenith-List message posted by: "H. Robert Schoenberger" Grant - thanks for sharing this interesting article with us. Hap Schoenberger 701 20%, do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Corriveau" Subject: Zenith-List: Electronic gyro article > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > > http://www.xbow.com/General_info/gyro_guide.htm > > This is an interesting article explaining the basics of gyros and the new > solid state 'stuff' available ... hmmmm > > -- > Grant Corriveau > C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:25 PM PST US From: erictauch@attbi.com Subject: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation --> Zenith-List message posted by: erictauch@attbi.com Greetings, I have also noticed a lot of posts on engine out situations, especially recently with all the Subaru troubles. Years ago when I first started looking at building a kitplane, I wanted to use an auto-conversion. I researched and studied, and over the years decided I would not attempt it due to my general lack of experience with engines. I feel confident about "assembling" a plane and a proven power plant, but not doing true "experimentation" But, I still listened and followed along with all the conversion packages. My own "thru the grapevine" experience is that I hear about a lot of engine out problems with conversions. This is totally un-scientific, but it seems I hear about a dis-proportionately high rate of conversion failures. Although this may be because it is a conversion, thus you hear more about it. Not trying to start a "conversion email debate", just seems to be my experience over the years. My theory is that a power-plant installation has to be tested (like other complex systems) with volume and test hours to flush out the bugs. I dont think the conversions get this as much because each one tends to be a custom istallation and are not in very high numbers. Eric > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair" > > I have a strange suspicion that if you call subaru they will tell you they > are sorry but their engines are intended for cars not airplanes. No further > discussion. Someone even told me they tried to buy a "crate motor" from a > dealer for an experimental and because of his big mouth - IE Bragging what > it was going to be used for was DECLINED. You think that's why they are in > "experimental" planes? A certified plane will only run you about > $150,000.00 - then you can call Lycoming or whoever... Or even buy a > Lycoming for about $28,000 new and use it. Then if there is a problem the > manufacturer might take interest since that is the intended use of the part. > Ever heard of the guy who tried to trim his hedge by picking the lawnmower > up over his head while it was running. His family tried to sue after it > "turned on him" (Gyroscopic procession....Bet that hurt.) All these > stickers we see on things - Don't use for this, that etc.... That's usually > because someone actually tried it most of the time... PLEASE DON'T CALL > SUBARU - they make a great engine - BUT MINE DOESN'T NEED A STICKER! > > Dave > OK - I'm done ranting now..... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Howerton" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" > > > > This ever-growing list of zodiacs with Subaru engines going down with 2 or > > less yeasr of service is becoming more than just concerning - it's > downright > > disturbing. To date has anyone kept track of how many there are out > there? > > Also how many engine failures out there did not result in crashes? Has > > anyone contacted Subaru to discuss this? Finally, what about the other > > engines, the Corvair, the Jabiru, the Rotax the Continental and the > > Lycoming; have we seen these fail as well? > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:11 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down (diferent problem) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Bill, Hold on, dont panic please. Sorry but this last engine is what mechanics know as "Careless Assembly", Sorry if it sound rude... When you rebuild an OLD engine from a car (mainly to use it) as a AERO conversion, you should check (double check) and/or change all the moving parts: oil pump, water pump, distributor, camshaft pushers, distributor gear (when applied) etc. NOT only the bearings, rings and pistons. Is like using the old head gaskets to save a few bucks and overheat the entire engine (several 100.00 bucks bill) because of a water leak. NOW You Subaru conversion pilots, I advise, should do a few things now: First, take an emergency landing course from your local utralight school :-) Second, practice deadstick landings Third, avoid flying over places you will not like to land in. Forth, unite efforts (with the conversion bussiness) to get the valve problem isolated and solved, dont fight them, they are interested the same in getting the problem solved as soon as possible (They are loosing money, the word spreads). Fifth, when you got the "cure" contact in all lists as much Suby pilots as possible, to be shure they check and preventive repair their engine heads. Sixth, If the owners of the conversion shops start flying with Lycos or Conts, think in selling you engine ;-) :-) :-) Saludos Gary Gower --- Bill Howerton wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" > > > This ever-growing list of zodiacs with Subaru engines going down with > 2 or > less yeasr of service is becoming more than just concerning - it's > downright > disturbing. To date has anyone kept track of how many there are out > there? > Also how many engine failures out there did not result in crashes? > Has > anyone contacted Subaru to discuss this? Finally, what about the > other > engines, the Corvair, the Jabiru, the Rotax the Continental and the > Lycoming; have we seen these fail as well? > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:36 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Auto Pilot information request... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Hi Michael, We are going to install the one from Navaid Devices. http://www.navaid-devices.com/contact.htm A local Kitfox has one installed and the owner is very happy. Ours is arriving in a couple of weeks. I will post when we start installing it. Saludos Gary Gower 701 912S Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico. --- Michael Stempf wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Michael Stempf" > > > All, > > I was wondering if anyone knew these answers, I think I know them - > but > I want to double check. I am looking at installing a S-Tec Single > Axis > Auto Pilot. > > Also I was wondering (I have not worked with autopilots before), what > recommendations do people have as far as going with either a roll > auto > pilot or with a pitch auto pilot? > > * We need to know the type of control system you will utilize, > push rod, cable or a combination of both. > * We need to know the full travel from "stop to stop" of the > control system so we can establish the servo RPM and system gain > levels. > > * We need to know the electrical system voltage of your > aircraft > > > Thanks, > > > Michael Stempf > > 601XL - working on the right wing > > N-4XL > > > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:54 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down From: "Don Honabach" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" George, Do you have any pictures of the area that failed. This sounds like a good point for us Subaru owners to periodically check. Thanks! Don Honabach -----Original Message----- From: George Fetzer [mailto:gfetzer@peoplepc.com] Subject: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Fetzer" --> I read Philip's narrative of his bad fortune and almost decided to copy it and change the name. I experienced a total loss of power on a short flight last Saturday that resulted in a very bad forced landing. The aircraft is probably a total loss, but I also was fortunate to walk away. I was also powered by a Subaru nearing the 200 hour mark, but my failure was caused by one of the few shared components in the dual ignition systems. The distributor rotor metal contact broke loose as a result of excessive shaft clearance in the distributor. This was overlooked at the last service. The resulting forced landing in a muddy field was not well executed and the aircraft came to rest inverted. Although there is no undamaged part forward of the baggage shelf, the cockpit area remained fairly intact. George Fetzer N601G direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:47 PM PST US From: "George Fetzer" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Fetzer" Dave As the driver of the most recent casualty, I can not agree with you more. We are taking an auto engine that is some 20 years old and using it for a purpose other than the manufacturer intended. I think it serves the purpose very well. It seems to me that most of the faults have been due to a replacement of the valve guides. I had the originals and they never gave me a problem. In fact nothing on this installation gave me any grief until my 20 year old distributor failed. Even this was not a total failure as such. If I had perhaps been more observant when I last replaced the rotor, I would still be flying instead of filing reports. Let's not blame Subaru here. I have every intention of putting this or another Soob in my next plane. George Fetzer -----Original Message----- --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair" I have a strange suspicion that if you call subaru they will tell you they are sorry but their engines are intended for cars not airplanes. ... PLEASE DON'T CALL SUBARU - they make a great engine - BUT MINE DOESN'T NEED A STICKER! Dave OK - I'm done ranting now..... ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:07 PM PST US From: CBRxxDRV@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: interiors - 601HD --> Zenith-List message posted by: CBRxxDRV@aol.com Well as I ponder on my project plane I have come up with 2 companys that make an interiors for for the 601 series. Skyshops and Oregon. Any other companys?? TIA Sal Capra Lakeland, FL My Home Page http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:35 PM PST US From: "George Fetzer" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down (diferent problem) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Fetzer" And to you Gary I must say, I am just a little offended that you want to categorize me as a careless mechanic when you have little or no knowledge of which you speak. Even the Lyc and Cont engine rebuilders reuse parts that meet certain wear tolerances at rebuild time. That is not to say that the same part will meet this tolerance over it's lifetime. If we all had unlimited budgets, then things might be different. There is a vast difference between a serviceable used part and a used gasket. If you don't care to fly behind a Soob, then by all means don't. But maybe some of us do. And I for one will rebuild and fly again behind another Subaru. As for training, no one can ever get enough regardless of what you fly. And last, under the tools menu you will find spell check. Try it. George -----Original Message----- --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Bill, Hold on, dont panic please. Sorry but this last engine is what mechanics know as "Careless Assembly", Sorry if it sound rude... When you rebuild an OLD engine from a car (mainly to use it) as a AERO conversion, you should check (double check) and/or change all the moving parts: oil pump, water pump, distributor, camshaft pushers, distributor gear (when applied) etc. NOT only the bearings, rings and pistons. Is like using the old head gaskets to save a few bucks and overheat the entire engine (several 100.00 bucks bill) because of a water leak. NOW You Subaru conversion pilots, I advise, should do a few things now: First, take an emergency landing course from your local utralight school :-) Second, practice deadstick landings Third, avoid flying over places you will not like to land in. Forth, unite efforts (with the conversion bussiness) to get the valve problem isolated and solved, dont fight them, they are interested the same in getting the problem solved as soon as possible (They are loosing money, the word spreads). Fifth, when you got the "cure" contact in all lists as much Suby pilots as possible, to be shure they check and preventive repair their engine heads. Sixth, If the owners of the conversion shops start flying with Lycos or Conts, think in selling you engine ;-) :-) :-) Saludos Gary Gower ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:44 PM PST US From: Kurt Kingston Subject: RE: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation --> Zenith-List message posted by: Kurt Kingston Agreeing with Eric but would like to offer an opinion that will get some mad, but... How many of you know truly skilled mechanics that are also good pilots, or even interested in being good pilots? And the reverse, truly good pilots that are also skilled mechanics, willing to do all of the documentation,etc.? If a person is inclined to be a kit builder vs. scratch builder because he has marginal mechanical abilities (like me), or to save build time so he can go flying, aren't those also good reasons not to get involved in a rebuild/auto conversion project? Thanks Kurt Challenger 2 on PJ amphibs with a Rotax 582 thinking about an XL amphib project but scared of the canopy. -----Original Message----- From: erictauch@attbi.com [mailto:erictauch@attbi.com] Subject: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation --> Zenith-List message posted by: erictauch@attbi.com Greetings, I have also noticed a lot of posts on engine out situations, especially recently with all the Subaru troubles. Years ago when I first started looking at building a kitplane, I wanted to use an auto-conversion. I researched and studied, and over the years decided I would not attempt it due to my general lack of experience with engines. I feel confident about "assembling" a plane and a proven power plant, but not doing true "experimentation" B ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau ... > My theory is that a power-plant installation > has to be tested (like other complex systems) with volume and test hours > to flush out the bugs. > I dont think the conversions get this as much because each one tends to be > a custom istallation and are not in very high numbers. > > Eric Eric, I agree with your theory. I have a CAM100 (Honda conversion) and while I believe it is a good engine, I admit that running a more 'unique' engine like this, adds another level of complexity to my aircraft. If I'd spent the extra 10,000 or so for the Rotax, I'd be able to just drop the aircraft off at the local Rotax agent for annual tune-ups, troubles, etc... But then, would I be able to afford that? ;-) The main thing that I'd probably benefit from is the many-thousands of hours of experience that the engine has, and the information base that exists so I don't have to be the first to experience the problem. So, my recommendation is: IF you like having your hands in the machinery and solving problems, making solutions, etc. -- auto conversion; IF youre less mechanically inclined and prefer a higher flight/maintenance ratio -- aircraft engine. FWIW -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:31 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Getting another Zodiac BACK in the air.... From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau After a hiatus (moving, life, etc..) I'm starting to fix an ignition problem with my CAM100. After a couple of incidents of power loss in flight, I was finally able to pinpoint one channel as the culprit. The engine manufacturer helped me troubleshoot the system and wierdly - the problem has to be in one of the Hall Effect sensors (or the lead/wires from there to the computer). The problem is intermittant - very hard to pinpoint - but HEAT seems to play a role in causing the failure as it always happened under conditions when the engine was hot. So, I'm thinking about a faulty pin, poor connection, something like that. However, today when I was inspecting the magnets as they move past the sensors, I wondered, what would happen if the expansion of the various parts actually caused the gap to get too small? Question: If a Hall Effect sensor should actually come in contact with the magnet as it sweeps past on the flywheel, would this interfere with the signal? I originally wondered the opposite - could my mangets be too far away - but that doesn't add up as the failures were always at higher rpm (i.e. cruise/takeoff power when the signal is strongest), and physically the sensors are very close -- maybe too close?. So, my BIG JOB to gain access to these sensors and replace them with new ones from the factory will commence in a few days when I get back from work. Anyone have any previous experience with failures in Hall Effect sensors? The engine manufacturer tells me that they've never seen this one before. -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 Of course when I started the engine in the driveway today, it started right up and runs like a top on both channels... tempting to just go flying! BUT after experiencing that deafening silence of a dying engine in flight, I WILL NOT fly it until I'm reasonable sure I've found/cured the problem. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:31 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > ...the aircraft came to rest inverted. > Although there is no undamaged part forward of the baggage shelf, the > cockpit area remained fairly intact. > > George Fetzer > N601G Well done George -- if you survived to tell the tale, then you did the main things right (i.e. Fly the aircraft to the ground rather than stall/spin in, etc. etc...). Sorry to hear about the damage.... Keep us posted as to your (and the aircraft's) recovery, please. -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:02 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau I'm slowly rebuilding my mailing list since I lost most of it last year... sorry to 'spam' the list: Dr. Doug Pahanke -- are you out there? Please send me a note at my new address: grantc@ca.inter.net thanks all, do not archive -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:07 PM PST US From: "Philip Polstra" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra" Wow! I'm glad that you also walked away. I still haven't gotten to tear down my engine and diagnose the problem. The recovery truck got stuck yesterday trying to get it. At least you know what happened in your case. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Fetzer" I read Philip's narrative of his bad fortune and almost decided to copy it and change the name. I experienced a total loss of power on a short flight last Saturday that resulted in a very bad forced landing. The aircraft is probably a total loss, but I also was fortunate to walk away. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:08 PM PST US From: "Hodges, Mitch" Subject: Zenith-List: What to do with a broken Zenith (or a kit not done) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hodges, Mitch" Given the recent discussions with folks that have lost their beloved aircraft, I thought you might find this website interesting. Assuming you can get it from the insurance company, perhaps you could create a keepsake for yourself by imitating some of these ideas from "big iron" scrap pieces. I particularly like the DC-9 horizontal stabilizer desk (if I could afford it!!). Probably wouldn't be too difficult to do the same with a Zenith outboard wing, which is a little shorter. http://www.motoart.com/ I include myself withall those that say "Thank God" you are safe after your challenges. Hope to see you in the skies again, and look forward to finding out how the replacement projects go! Mitch Hodges ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:03 PM PST US From: "Phil & Michele Miller" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller" Grant, I wish it was that easy. I have a 912S with only 72 hours on it an it is an absolute pig to start when cold. There is no Rotax service agent here in New Zealand and we have been trying to solve this one for 14 months with no success. The flight/troubleshooting ratio is probably about 1/20 since I have owned this plane. V-e-r-y f-r-u-s-t-r-a-t-i-n-g !!!!! Cheers, Phil Miller New Zealand (701) -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Grant Corriveau Subject: Re: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation >If I'd spent the extra 10,000 or so for the Rotax, I'd be able to just drop the aircraft off at the local Rotax agent for annual tune-ups, troubles, etc... But then, would I be able to afford that? ;-) >The main thing that I'd probably benefit from is the many-thousands of hours of experience that the engine has, and the information base that exists so I don't have to be the first to experience the problem. >So, my recommendation is: IF you like having your hands in the machinery and solving problems, making solutions, etc. -- auto conversion; IF youre less mechanically inclined and prefer a higher flight/maintenance ratio -- aircraft engine. FWIW -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:05 PM PST US From: "Norman Turner" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Norman Turner" Phil, I can understand your frustration in this matter as it has happened to me !!! some time ago when delivering a 701 from W.A. to the N.T. the dam thing would never start especially when cold , delivered the aircraft and then went home to Darwin . It worried me all the same and then delivered the same aircraft to a new owner , starting problem still there. So the new owner a Mr Bill Lowther, has found the problem and I suggest that you ring him at a respectable time of an evening and I'm sure that your problem will be solved, his phone number is 0269472540 in NSW Australia. Hope this info is of use to you. Norm turner 601 HDS 912. Cheers and safe flying.A pic of the aircraft attached and mine. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil & Michele Miller" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller" > > Grant, > > I wish it was that easy. I have a 912S with only 72 hours on it an it is > an absolute pig to start when cold. There is no Rotax service agent here > in New Zealand and we have been trying to solve this one for 14 months > with no success. The flight/troubleshooting ratio is probably about 1/20 > since I have owned this plane. V-e-r-y f-r-u-s-t-r-a-t-i-n-g !!!!! > > Cheers, > Phil Miller > New Zealand (701) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Grant > Corriveau > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation > > > >If I'd spent the extra 10,000 or so for the Rotax, I'd be able to just > drop the aircraft off at the local Rotax agent for annual tune-ups, > troubles, etc... But then, would I be able to afford that? ;-) > > >The main thing that I'd probably benefit from is the many-thousands of > hours of experience that the engine has, and the information base that > exists so I don't have to be the first to experience the problem. > > >So, my recommendation is: IF you like having your hands in the > machinery and solving problems, making solutions, etc. -- auto > conversion; IF youre less mechanically inclined and prefer a higher > flight/maintenance ratio -- aircraft engine. FWIW > > -- > Grant Corriveau > C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 > > > direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. > >