Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:21 AM - Re: automotive conversion observation (Phil & Michele Miller)
2. 03:24 AM - Re: Another Zodie down (diferent problem) (Alexander Birca (RMD))
3. 03:39 AM - Looking for 701 information (Richard Andersen)
4. 04:26 AM - Re: automotive conversion >Rotax (CBRxxDRV@aol.com)
5. 06:10 AM - Re: Getting another Zodiac BACK in the air.... (Weston, Jim)
6. 07:13 AM - Re: automotive conversion >Rotax (Mike Fothergill)
7. 07:44 AM - Re: automotive conversion observation (Pinneo, George)
8. 07:53 AM - Cowling inlets - ahhhhhhhhh (Michel Therrien)
9. 08:25 AM - Primer Hook Up... (Don Honabach)
10. 08:27 AM - Too many Zodiacs down! (Paul Hartl)
11. 09:11 AM - Re: Cowling inlets - ahhhhhhhhh (Mark A. Wood)
12. 11:32 AM - Stratus Subaru Failure (RLucka@aol.com)
13. 12:48 PM - Re: Cowling inlets - ahhhhhhhhh (CBRxxDRV@aol.com)
14. 01:59 PM - Re: 912S Hard Starting (Phil & Michele Miller)
15. 02:35 PM - Re: 912S Hard Starting (CBRxxDRV@aol.com)
16. 03:14 PM - Re: Too many Zodiacs down! (Ramperf@aol.com)
17. 03:52 PM - Re: Too many Zodiacs down! (Michel Therrien)
18. 04:10 PM - Re: Another Zodie down (Repairable?) (Gary Gower)
19. 04:29 PM - Re: Too many Zodiacs down! (Ramperf@aol.com)
20. 04:29 PM - Re: Another Zodie down (diferent problem) (APOLOGIZE) (Gary Gower)
21. 04:57 PM - Re: Getting another Zodiac BACK in the air.... (Grant Corriveau)
22. 04:58 PM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 06/10/03 (Greg P Jannakos)
23. 05:00 PM - Re: automotive conversion observation (Grant Corriveau)
24. 05:08 PM - Re: What to do with a broken Zenith (or a kit not (Grant Corriveau)
25. 05:17 PM - Re: Too many Zodiacs down! (Grant Corriveau)
26. 05:24 PM - Re: Too many Zodiacs down! (Grant Corriveau)
27. 06:28 PM - Re: Too many Zodiacs down! (Don Walker)
28. 06:36 PM - Re: Too many Zodiacs down! (Ramperf@aol.com)
29. 10:17 PM - Re: Too many Zodiacs down! (Ed)
Message 1
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| Subject: | automotive conversion observation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller" <millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
Thanks, Norm,
Any assistance at all is appreciated. I'll contact Bill tomorrow.
PS. Couldn't find the attached pics. (Do not archive)
Cheers,
Phil Miller
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Norman
Turner
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Norman Turner"
--> <normsflighttraining@bigpond.com>
Phil, I can understand your frustration in this matter as it has
happened to me !!! some time ago when delivering a 701 from W.A. to the
N.T. the dam thing would never start especially when cold , delivered
the aircraft and then went home to Darwin . It worried me all the same
and then delivered the same aircraft to a new owner , starting problem
still there. So the new owner a Mr Bill Lowther, has found the problem
and I suggest that you ring him at a respectable time of an evening and
I'm sure that your problem will be solved, his phone number is
0269472540 in NSW Australia. Hope this info is of use to you. Norm
turner 601 HDS 912. Cheers and safe flying.A pic of the aircraft
attached and mine.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil & Michele Miller" <millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller"
<millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
>
> Grant,
>
> I wish it was that easy. I have a 912S with only 72 hours on it an it
> is an absolute pig to start when cold. There is no Rotax service agent
> here in New Zealand and we have been trying to solve this one for 14
> months with no success. The flight/troubleshooting ratio is probably
> about 1/20 since I have owned this plane. V-e-r-y
> f-r-u-s-t-r-a-t-i-n-g !!!!!
>
> Cheers,
> Phil Miller
> New Zealand (701)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Grant
> Corriveau
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation
>
>
> >If I'd spent the extra 10,000 or so for the Rotax, I'd be able to
> >just
> drop the aircraft off at the local Rotax agent for annual tune-ups,
> troubles, etc... But then, would I be able to afford that? ;-)
>
> >The main thing that I'd probably benefit from is the many-thousands
> >of
> hours of experience that the engine has, and the information base that
> exists so I don't have to be the first to experience the problem.
>
> >So, my recommendation is: IF you like having your hands in the
> machinery and solving problems, making solutions, etc. -- auto
> conversion; IF youre less mechanically inclined and prefer a higher
> flight/maintenance ratio -- aircraft engine. FWIW
>
> --
> Grant Corriveau
> C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
>
>
> direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>
>
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Another Zodie down (diferent problem) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Alexander Birca (RMD)" <Alexander.Birca@rmd.ericsson.se>
Totally agree, if you have enough funds, buy Rotax and be quiet.
But I have to say, certified engine itself will not do all the job for you.
Some time you have to check oil, for instance.
Do not be a snobbery guys.
Alex Birca
-----Original Message-----
From: George Fetzer [mailto:gfetzer@peoplepc.com]
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Zodie down (diferent problem)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Fetzer" <gfetzer@peoplepc.com>
And to you Gary I must say, I am just a little offended that you want to
categorize me as a careless mechanic when you have little or no
knowledge of which you speak. Even the Lyc and Cont engine rebuilders
reuse parts that meet certain wear tolerances at rebuild time. That is
not to say that the same part will meet this tolerance over it's
lifetime. If we all had unlimited budgets, then things might be
different. There is a vast difference between a serviceable used part
and a used gasket. If you don't care to fly behind a Soob, then by all
means don't. But maybe some of us do. And I for one will rebuild and
fly again behind another Subaru. As for training, no one can ever get
enough regardless of what you fly. And last, under the tools menu you
will find spell check. Try it.
George
-----Original Message-----
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Bill,
Hold on, dont panic please. Sorry but this last engine is what
mechanics know as "Careless Assembly", Sorry if it sound rude...
When you rebuild an OLD engine from a car (mainly to use it) as a AERO
conversion, you should check (double check) and/or change all the
moving parts: oil pump, water pump, distributor, camshaft pushers,
distributor gear (when applied) etc. NOT only the bearings, rings and
pistons.
Is like using the old head gaskets to save a few bucks and overheat the
entire engine (several 100.00 bucks bill) because of a water leak.
NOW You Subaru conversion pilots, I advise, should do a few things now:
First, take an emergency landing course from your local utralight
school :-)
Second, practice deadstick landings
Third, avoid flying over places you will not like to land in.
Forth, unite efforts (with the conversion bussiness) to get the valve
problem isolated and solved, dont fight them, they are interested the
same in getting the problem solved as soon as possible (They are
loosing money, the word spreads).
Fifth, when you got the "cure" contact in all lists as much Suby
pilots as possible, to be shure they check and preventive repair their
engine heads.
Sixth, If the owners of the conversion shops start flying with Lycos or
Conts, think in selling you engine ;-) :-) :-)
Saludos
Gary Gower
Message 3
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| Subject: | Looking for 701 information |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard Andersen" <randersen@cox-internet.com>
I am interested in finding out more about the STOL 701. Are there any
builders or owners on the list that I could talk with in Louisiana or south
west Texas. I am located in Lake Charles LA (south west corner of
Louisiana). Please e-mail off line.
Thanks
randersen@cox-internet.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: automotive conversion >Rotax |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: CBRxxDRV@aol.com
In a message dated 6/20/03 1:37:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
millerpg@ps.gen.nz writes:
> I wish it was that easy. I have a 912S with only 72 hours on it an it is
> an absolute pig to start when cold. There is no Rotax service agent here
> in New Zealand and we have been trying to solve this one for 14 months
> with no success. The flight/troubleshooting ratio is probably about 1/20
> since I have owned this plane. V-e-r-y f-r-u-s-t-r-a-t-i-n-g !!!!!
>
Are you using the choke or a primer?
New Zealand......How Cold?
Sal Capra
Lakeland, FL
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html">My Home Page
http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html
Message 5
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| Subject: | Getting another Zodiac BACK in the air.... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
Grant,
I don't know about your CAM100 system, but usually there is a Hall Effect sensor
and an electronic module. The electronic module, being a solid state device
(i.e. transistors and the like) can be sensitive to temperature. I had a very
similar problem with my ignition early on. Thank goodness I had the alternate
ignition system to switch to. Anyway, once the electronic module was replaced
the problem has never returned. Mine used to do the same thing when hot.
In fact, when I landed somewhere on a hot summer day and then tried a restart
while the engine was still hot it wouldn't start until I switched to the alternate
ignition system.
This is why they classify us as 'EXPERIMENTAL'. ;0)
Hope this helps,
Jim Weston
McDonough, Ga.
-----Original Message-----
From: Grant Corriveau [mailto:grantc@ca.inter.net]
Subject: Zenith-List: Getting another Zodiac BACK in the air....
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
After a hiatus (moving, life, etc..) I'm starting to fix an ignition problem
with my CAM100. After a couple of incidents of power loss in flight, I was
finally able to pinpoint one channel as the culprit.
The engine manufacturer helped me troubleshoot the system and wierdly - the
problem has to be in one of the Hall Effect sensors (or the lead/wires from
there to the computer). The problem is intermittant - very hard to pinpoint
- but HEAT seems to play a role in causing the failure as it always happened
under conditions when the engine was hot.
So, I'm thinking about a faulty pin, poor connection, something like that.
However, today when I was inspecting the magnets as they move past the
sensors, I wondered, what would happen if the expansion of the various parts
actually caused the gap to get too small?
Question: If a Hall Effect sensor should actually come in contact with the
magnet as it sweeps past on the flywheel, would this interfere with the
signal?
I originally wondered the opposite - could my mangets be too far away - but
that doesn't add up as the failures were always at higher rpm (i.e.
cruise/takeoff power when the signal is strongest), and physically the
sensors are very close -- maybe too close?.
So, my BIG JOB to gain access to these sensors and replace them with new
ones from the factory will commence in a few days when I get back from work.
Anyone have any previous experience with failures in Hall Effect sensors?
The engine manufacturer tells me that they've never seen this one before.
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Of course when I started the engine in the driveway today, it started right
up and runs like a top on both channels... tempting to just go flying! BUT
after experiencing that deafening silence of a dying engine in flight, I
WILL NOT fly it until I'm reasonable sure I've found/cured the problem.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: automotive conversion >Rotax |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
Hi;
My 912's have always started easily is sub zero weather. I fly all winter.
Use choke to start. Is the starter turning fast enough. ie what size
battery/wires?
Check spark plug gap.
Mike
C-FRND CH-601HDS/912S
UHS Spinners
CBRxxDRV@aol.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: CBRxxDRV@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 6/20/03 1:37:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> millerpg@ps.gen.nz writes:
>
> > I wish it was that easy. I have a 912S with only 72 hours on it an it is
> > an absolute pig to start when cold. There is no Rotax service agent here
> > in New Zealand and we have been trying to solve this one for 14 months
> > with no success. The flight/troubleshooting ratio is probably about 1/20
> > since I have owned this plane. V-e-r-y f-r-u-s-t-r-a-t-i-n-g !!!!!
> >
>
> Are you using the choke or a primer?
> New Zealand......How Cold?
>
> Sal Capra
> Lakeland, FL
> <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html">My Home Page
> http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | automotive conversion observation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pinneo, George" <george.pinneo@ngc.com>
I don't have a lot of cold weather starting experience on my 912, but it's absolutely
critical to have the carbs fully closed, throttle all the way aft, and
start on the "Starting Carb" after using the boost pump to pressurize the fuel
line to the Pierberg pump.
GGP
Message 8
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| Subject: | Cowling inlets - ahhhhhhhhh |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Hello gang,
I think I found the limit of my abilities, patience
and competence. While I spent 30 hours trying to
create the lip (or flange) around the air inlet
openings, I just couldn't progress at all. See:
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/chcowling3.htm for
the details of what I've done.
So, I'm putting this aside for a while and I will work
on the canopy. Any advise (for inlets or canopy)
would be appreciated.
Have a nice day!
Michel
do not archive
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
Message 9
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| Subject: | Primer Hook Up... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" <don@pcperfect.com>
One interesting item that a fellow builder and I tested the other day is
that if you have a fuel primer setup (electric in our case) and you
accidentially activate the primer after the engine is running, you stand
a 99% chance of the engine dying. We were able to restart the engine,
but depending on the the phase of flight, this might be an issue.
I'm now considering how to make a device that will kill the power to the
primer circuit if the engine is running to prevent an accidential or
failed switch from activating the primer.
Regards,
Don Honabach
Message 10
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| Subject: | Too many Zodiacs down! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Hartl" <pdhartl@mindspring.com>
Sorry to hear of your misfortune this week, George - and Philip, too. Obviously
it's
great that you both could walk away - that's the most important part, but I know
it
must be pretty painful to see the airplane you poured so much time and effort into
as a unsalvageable wreck. As I near the "airframe complete" step of my HDS, I
can't help think about all that time you've lost - and I sure don't want to lose
mine,
either!
Another thing I think about - 90% of my flying is over very rugged mountainous
terrain, often requiring hard climbing to get over 10 to 12,000 foot peaks; the
chances that an engine-out scenario for me would be fatal are quite high. When
I
look at that Stratus EA-81 crate sitting in the corner, I can't help but wonder
- is this
thing going to kill me or maim me? Or my wife? Or a friend or relative?
So I've lost my nerve with this engine. I think I'm going to take the advice of
Grant
and others on this list and look into a certified engine, or perhaps a Jabiru.
After
this week, I don't think I could ever have the confidence to enjoy flying around
my
home base with a Stratus Sub up front. I will be putting it up for sale at the
AOPA
website's classifieds, and I will inform any prospective buyer of the valve guide
and
engine mount problems and their fixes (I'm not sure what to say about the distributor
- get a new one?). If any of you know someone braver than me - and who flies
more regularly over open country, who's looking for a good deal on this engine
(never been out of the crate and dual ignition, BTW), please send them my way.
Paul Hartl
Paul Hartl, 601HDS Stratus Subaru
Tail, rear fuse, wings completed;fuselage under construction
FS2002 Aircraft Website: http://home.mindspring.com/~pdhartl/
email: pdhartl@mindspring.com or paul_hartl@communityschool.org
Sun Valley, Idaho 208-788-9147
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling inlets - ahhhhhhhhh |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark A. Wood" <Mark.Wood@uvm.edu>
Michel
I have a good idea of how you are feeling with the process on the
cowling, I am not done mine yet either. However after looking at your
web pages I will tell you how I have been working with the spray foam
to get better results.
I also found that putting on a large amount of foam at one time made
foam that would take a very long time to dry to the center and would
also be very dense in the center and therefor hard to form. To avoid
this I put the foam on in smaller doses. I layer on the foam. I put
one layer of a beads of foam as small as I can get about one every
1/2 inch. After this layer expands and dries I have a layer about an
inch deep. I trim off the top with a sharp knife so I don't have that
outer skin, then lay on another layer where needed. While this dries
I work on other things. It does not take that long for each layer to
dry, but if you start to work it before the foam sets it will
collapse the inner section. If I feel any sticky material when I
start to cut the foam, I know I need to give it more time to set.
I find that doing it this way I build up foam that does not take that
long to dry and has a good working density.
I am at this time raising up the front of my cowling about 3/4 of an
inch. When I started to put the air inlet openings in, I felt the top
of the cowling was to close to the cylinders and would not let enough
air over the engine. I am raising the front and therefore need to do
some work to rebuild the sides where the upper and lower halves join.
I am not having fun with this fiberglass either, but I do at least
feel I am making progress.
Best of luck with yours
Mark
>
>Hello gang,
>
>I think I found the limit of my abilities, patience
>and competence. While I spent 30 hours trying to
>create the lip (or flange) around the air inlet
>openings, I just couldn't progress at all. See:
>http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/chcowling3.htm for
>the details of what I've done.
>
>So, I'm putting this aside for a while and I will work
>on the canopy. Any advise (for inlets or canopy)
>would be appreciated.
>
>Have a nice day!
>
>Michel
>do not archive
>
--
Mark Wood
Assistive Technology Consultant, VT I-Team
Center on Disability and Community Inclusion
University of Vermont
Message 12
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| Subject: | Stratus Subaru Failure |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: RLucka@aol.com
List,
I reported an in-flight valve-guide failure two years ago when my Stratus
conversion had only 32 hours run time. I bought this engine from Reiner but
Mykal exchanged heads with me. I was just 7 miles away from the airport after
flying for one hour when the failure occured, where a piece of valve guide bent
a
spark plug causing a short and I was able to limp back on the remaining three
working cylinders.
I have since rebuilt the engine with new heads, replaced the water pump (it
leaked), and repaired a crack in one of the engine mounts (supplied by
Stratus). I now have 150 hours on the engine.
Since my experience, I closed the air leaks around the radiator, blocked air
flow around half of the muffler from entering the radiator intake, and
enrichen the carbs so the engine runs a little cooler. I take off on full power
until I reach 1000 feet, do a cruising climb (4200 RPM) until I reach my desired
altitude, and then I ease off at 3800 RPM and cruise at about 90 - 95 MPH.
Kinda slow but at least the engine is humming along smooth and quiet at that RPM.
So, count me as having suffered a valve-guide failure and I hope not to
suffer another one. With all the problems from Reiner's shop, it probably would
be
fun to find another Soob and work on that while my Stratus conversion still
works and then swap the engines. In the meantime, I'm keeping my current
engine running a little slower until I replace it. I hate for my plane to be down
for any length of time.
Dick (CH601-HDS, 150 hours flying slowly)
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling inlets - ahhhhhhhhh |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: CBRxxDRV@aol.com
In a message dated 6/20/03 10:54:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mtherr@yahoo.com writes:
> So, I'm putting this aside for a while and I will work
> on the canopy. Any advise (for inlets or canopy)
> would be appreciated.
>
When Coming up with a boat mold....or modifying a mold
they use a wood plug. IOW Choose a soft wood that is easy
to shape and make a plug inside the cowling ....shape the
opening / lip into the wood coat the wood with something
that the fiberglass will not stick too and lay up the glass.
when cured remove the wood......viola.
On boat mold they coat the plug with glass/resin and then
gelcoat. This is a small job and I am sure you could come up
with something the fiberglass would not stick to.
Sal Capra
Lakeland, FL
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html">My Home Page
http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html
Message 14
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| Subject: | Zenith-List:912S Hard Starting |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller" <millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
It's not cold here. Seldom less than about 60 deg F. Always use Rotax
start recommendation of Full choke and throttle at idle.
Cheers,
Phil Miller
New Zealand
701/912S
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
CBRxxDRV@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: automotive conversion >Rotax
--> Zenith-List message posted by: CBRxxDRV@aol.com
In a message dated 6/20/03 1:37:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
millerpg@ps.gen.nz writes:
> I wish it was that easy. I have a 912S with only 72 hours on it an it
> is an absolute pig to start when cold. There is no Rotax service agent
> here in New Zealand and we have been trying to solve this one for 14
> months with no success. The flight/troubleshooting ratio is probably
> about 1/20 since I have owned this plane. V-e-r-y
> f-r-u-s-t-r-a-t-i-n-g !!!!!
>
Are you using the choke or a primer?
New Zealand......How Cold?
Sal Capra
Lakeland, FL
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html">My Home Page
http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List:912S Hard Starting |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: CBRxxDRV@aol.com
In a message dated 6/20/03 5:00:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
millerpg@ps.gen.nz writes:
> It's not cold here. Seldom less than about 60 deg F. Always use Rotax
> start recommendation of Full choke and throttle at idle.
>
The throttle all the way back (idle)
Intake rubbers properly installed, tight, and not cracked.
Carbs synchronized
Idle at correct setting
Good plugs
switch on both
I am willing to bet you have already tried all of the
above. If you have then try a primer instead of the choke.
I had a primer on the last 912 I had and it seemed to work
real well. One shot in summer, 2 in winter the same
as my continental. Real cold morning leave it pulled out
as it warms up and pump it a bit if needed. My Zodiac
I just bought will start (summer) with no choke as long
as the throttle is pulled all the way to the stop. I had to
start it this way because the cable is not working correctly.....
On the "Fix list" :)
Sal Capra
Lakeland, FL
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html">My Home Page
http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Too many Zodiacs down! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ramperf@aol.com
Paul
I have a hard time beleiving that you all would just give up on a
Subaru engine because of one builder's problems. You are marking all builders or
just one engine because of one builder. Ok, Stratus, has had his problems in
areas that he has overlooked or left up to someone incompetent of doing the job,
but don't use that to judge other builders. How many Rotax engines do you
think have gone down? Lycom?Cont?Jabaru? And are they still using them , you bet!
This maybe a "surface discussion" but I don't like being judged by the
failures of others. Take the time to ask questions and do your homework, find out
how many failures other builders have had and stay away from them! Not all
builders build the same!!!!!!
Thanks
Ron
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Too many Zodiacs down! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
I think this is a good point. In my area, I remember
the S44 Mystere that went down and killed the pilot
during a test flight because of a Rotax 912 engine
failure (carburator failure I believe). There is
someonelse here that experienced forced landing after
an oil fitting broke in flight, resulting in loss of
oil and engine. Also a Rotax.
During a presentation at our local RAA chapter a few
years ago, a mechanic working on Lycoming engine was
discussing the various ADs for the engine and the many
failure that happened or could happen with the engine.
Very scary and it seemed to be very expensive to just
own one of those engines (At one point, Lycoming was
trying to resolve a problem with the oil pump and the
customer had to pay several times to get updates
during that experimentation period).
It seems to me that any engine can fail and as
builders, we should do our best to understand the
failures and make the corrections for our
installation. I'm not a pilot yet, but it appears
very clearly now that as pilot, we can also prepare
ourselves for engine failure and continue to walk even
after a severe accident.
Michel
do not archive
--- Ramperf@aol.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ramperf@aol.com
>
> Paul
> I have a hard time beleiving that you all
> would just give up on a
> Subaru engine because of one builder's problems. You
> are marking all builders or
> just one engine because of one builder. Ok, Stratus,
> has had his problems in
> areas that he has overlooked or left up to someone
> incompetent of doing the job,
> but don't use that to judge other builders. How many
> Rotax engines do you
> think have gone down? Lycom?Cont?Jabaru? And are
> they still using them , you bet!
> This maybe a "surface discussion" but I don't like
> being judged by the
> failures of others. Take the time to ask questions
> and do your homework, find out
> how many failures other builders have had and stay
> away from them! Not all
> builders build the same!!!!!!
> Thanks
> Ron
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
Message 18
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| Subject: | Another Zodie down (Repairable?) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
George,
Is your plane reparable? Is a shame with al that time (and money of
course) invested to just trash it... Is my first time working with
aluminum planes, probably every piece part bends because of the
structure porpouse of the design.
Well, I had to ask this, hoping I never do any harm to my plane, I
really love mu planes. My last one got the landing gear broken and
finished up side down, but we repaired it in 3 months, aluminum
tubing, not sheet.
--- George Fetzer <gfetzer@peoplepc.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Fetzer"
> <gfetzer@peoplepc.com>
>
> Dave
>
> As the driver of the most recent casualty, I can not agree with you
> more. We are taking an auto engine that is some 20 years old and
> using
> it for a purpose other than the manufacturer intended. I think it
> serves the purpose very well. It seems to me that most of the faults
> have been due to a replacement of the valve guides. I had the
> originals
> and they never gave me a problem. In fact nothing on this
> installation
> gave me any grief until my 20 year old distributor failed. Even this
> was not a total failure as such. If I had perhaps been more
> observant
> when I last replaced the rotor, I would still be flying instead of
> filing reports. Let's not blame Subaru here. I have every intention
> of
> putting this or another Soob in my next plane.
>
> George Fetzer
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair"
> <dlummy@visi.net>
>
> I have a strange suspicion that if you call subaru they will tell you
> they
> are sorry but their engines are intended for cars not airplanes. ...
> PLEASE DON'T CALL
> SUBARU - they make a great engine - BUT MINE DOESN'T NEED A STICKER!
>
> Dave
> OK - I'm done ranting now.....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Too many Zodiacs down! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ramperf@aol.com
I don't know about you but buying an engine out of a car, throwing rings and
bearings at it,installing aircraft carbs and a redrive does not make a
Aeromotive engine, Thats why the failures. The engine was built to run 1500 to
2000
rpms, with the parts involved not 4500 constant with the same parts. That's
just the start.
I'm not going to soap box, (too,late)
Ron
Message 20
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| Subject: | Another Zodie down (diferent problem) (APOLOGIZE) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
George,
Sorry, no ofense intended, sometimes when we rebuild an engine
something is not checked as it should be, it has happend to me a couple
of times, The most important thing is to look for the problem of the
valves as soon as possible.
We are planning to build a turbo Geo coversion for some next proyect
(we still dont have a plane in mind for the engine).
Of course, also a used engine, I worked in several VW conversions and
like them, this 701 will be the first 912 we own, and I know that, if
expensive is not "bullet proof", there has been several close
encounters aound here in 912's, nothing serious but they land with
"pale faces"...
My post was because they where adding your engine problem to the valve
problem and treating the auto conversions as extra dangerous, thing
that is totally false.
One more time George, I am sorry if my words were of ofense for you, I
sincerely apologize to you and list, sometimes we need (as in repairing
and prefighting) to double check our mails before hitting the (enter)
button.
Saludos
Gary Gower
--- George Fetzer <gfetzer@peoplepc.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Fetzer"
> <gfetzer@peoplepc.com>
>
> And to you Gary I must say, I am just a little offended that you want
> to
> categorize me as a careless mechanic when you have little or no
> knowledge of which you speak. Even the Lyc and Cont engine
> rebuilders
> reuse parts that meet certain wear tolerances at rebuild time. That
> is
> not to say that the same part will meet this tolerance over it's
> lifetime. If we all had unlimited budgets, then things might be
> different. There is a vast difference between a serviceable used
> part
> and a used gasket. If you don't care to fly behind a Soob, then by
> all
> means don't. But maybe some of us do. And I for one will rebuild
> and
> fly again behind another Subaru. As for training, no one can ever
> get
> enough regardless of what you fly. And last, under the tools menu
> you
> will find spell check. Try it.
>
> George
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
>
> Bill,
>
> Hold on, dont panic please. Sorry but this last engine is what
> mechanics know as "Careless Assembly", Sorry if it sound rude...
>
> When you rebuild an OLD engine from a car (mainly to use it) as a
> AERO
> conversion, you should check (double check) and/or change all the
> moving parts: oil pump, water pump, distributor, camshaft pushers,
> distributor gear (when applied) etc. NOT only the bearings, rings
> and
> pistons.
>
> Is like using the old head gaskets to save a few bucks and overheat
> the
> entire engine (several 100.00 bucks bill) because of a water leak.
>
> NOW You Subaru conversion pilots, I advise, should do a few things
> now:
>
> First, take an emergency landing course from your local utralight
> school :-)
>
> Second, practice deadstick landings
>
> Third, avoid flying over places you will not like to land in.
>
> Forth, unite efforts (with the conversion bussiness) to get the valve
> problem isolated and solved, dont fight them, they are interested the
> same in getting the problem solved as soon as possible (They are
> loosing money, the word spreads).
>
> Fifth, when you got the "cure" contact in all lists as much Suby
> pilots as possible, to be shure they check and preventive repair
> their
> engine heads.
>
> Sixth, If the owners of the conversion shops start flying with Lycos
> or
> Conts, think in selling you engine ;-) :-) :-)
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower
>
__________________________________
http://search.yahoo.com
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Getting another Zodiac BACK in the air.... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
Hi Jim,
I appreciate hearing about other experiences. Even though mine is not the
electronic unit, it verifies that I have at least covered all the bases in
my troubleshooting. The factory sent me a completely new computer. After
installation, the problem became worse. What was intermittent with my
computer was now 'full time' on theirs! Also the computer is mounted on the
cockpit side of the firewall, so it's not exposed to heat extremes.
I also tried interchanging the dual coils to see if the problem changed, but
it did not. My 'final answer' (guess) so far is that I have a bad
connection in one of the fine wires inside one of the cables and that the
heating of the cable itself, is triggering a loss/degradation of signal.
Anyhow, I've tested and checked everything else in the system, so this is
all that's left.
Thanks again for the ideas,
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
> From: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
> Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:09:27 -0400
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Getting another Zodiac BACK in the air....
>
> Grant,
>
> I don't know about your CAM100 system, but usually there is a Hall Effect
> sensor and an electronic module. The electronic module, being a solid state
> device (i.e. transistors and the like) can be sensitive to temperature. I had
> a very similar problem with my ignition early on. Thank goodness I had the
> alternate ignition system to switch to. Anyway, once the electronic module
> was replaced the problem has never returned. Mine used to do the same thing
> when hot. In fact, when I landed somewhere on a hot summer day and then tried
> a restart while the engine was still hot it wouldn't start until I switched to
> the alternate ignition system.
>
> This is why they classify us as 'EXPERIMENTAL'. ;0)
>
> Hope this helps,
> Jim Weston
> McDonough, Ga.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 06/10/03 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Greg P Jannakos <gpjann@juno.com>
I'm getting ready to select an engine for my 601HDS and need to take
advantage of those who are flying.
My plane, less FWF weights about 330#s.
I'm trying to get some info on what to expect for performance on the
following engines:
Rotax 912 80HP
C85
C90
0200
If you can help, appreciate it.
Thanks
Greg Jannakos
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: automotive conversion observation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
Phil,
thanks. I guess sometimes the 'engine starts easier on the other side of
the airport'... (i.e. the grass is greener...).
Engines are complex pieces of machinery, so I guess ultimately, the only way
to avoid having to deal with their idiosyncracies --- is build a glider!
Thanks again for the info.
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
> From: "Phil & Michele Miller" <millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
> Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:33:09 +1200
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: automotive conversion observation
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller"
> <millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
>
> Grant,
>
> I wish it was that easy. I have a 912S with only 72 hours on it an it is
> an absolute pig to start when cold. There is no Rotax service agent here
> in New Zealand and we have been trying to solve this one for 14 months
> with no success. The flight/troubleshooting ratio is probably about 1/20
> since I have owned this plane. V-e-r-y f-r-u-s-t-r-a-t-i-n-g !!!!!
>
> Cheers,
> Phil Miller
> New Zealand (701)
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: What to do with a broken Zenith (or a kit not |
done)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
Cool! I remember the Zenair booth at Oshkosh where they had an almost
complete fuselage with one wing mounted on its side with the wing vertical,
like a sail to attract attention. Looked really good -- I thought hey! If I
ever get fed up building and don't finish the kit, at least I can have some
really unique lawn sculptures! ;-)
do not archive
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
> From: "Hodges, Mitch" <n601mh@BELLSOUTH.NET>
> http://www.motoart.com/
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Too many Zodiacs down! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> From: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
...
> It seems to me that any engine can fail and as
> builders, we should do our best to understand the
> failures and make the corrections for our
> installation. I'm not a pilot yet, but it appears
> very clearly now that as pilot, we can also prepare
> ourselves for engine failure and continue to walk even
> after a severe accident.
Good point Michel!
That's why I find this list so helpful. I hope we can all feel free to
share our successes and "failures" here because this information and
experience is extremely valuable to others.
I was a little reluctant to post my engine problems at first because I
didn't want to misrepresent my engine or defame the manufacturer. While I
was in the midst of discovering the problem, my frustrations may have caused
me to overstate things. (The CAM100 factory has been very helpful, btw -
sending me a new computer to swap for troubleshooting, and now a new set of
Hall sensors/cables and instructions about the installation. Actually, they
offered to do the job for me if I wanted to ship the engine to them ...).
All engines have the basics in common, so anyone's problems can be
instructive and insightful to others hoping to avoid or deal with similar
issues.
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Too many Zodiacs down! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> From: Ramperf@aol.com
> I don't know about you but buying an engine out of a car, throwing rings and
> bearings at it,installing aircraft carbs and a redrive does not make a
> Aeromotive engine, Thats why the failures. The engine was built to run 1500 to
> 2000
> rpms, with the parts involved not 4500 constant with the same parts.
This is a very valid point. But understand that this is not what happens to
a typical 'auto conversion' engine.
The CAM100, for example, starts out as a Honda 1.5l engine block from the
1988circa Honda Civic -- apparently this block has a reputation as being
overbuilt and is used my many performance-car types looking for a good
engine to 'boost'. It is 'zero timed'; the ignition system is thrown away;
many internal clearances are increased to allow for the increased continuous
engine RPMs and heat; a dual electronic ignition system is added along with
dual coils; a 'beefy' prop redrive unit is attached to the front; a 60 amp
alternator is installed; .... etc. etc..
The resultant product is definitely no longer a Honda - it's a CAM100
Aeroengine with a good reputation and overall record.
www.firewall.ca/
for more details...
fwiw
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Too many Zodiacs down! |
Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:28:09 -0500
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" <dwalk3dw@msn.com>
Very true. My friend in Dallas had an engine out, Rotax 912, on his HDS and was
forced to land on the road on the side of a hill. don w.
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Michel Therrien
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Too many Zodiacs down!
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
I think this is a good point. In my area, I remember
the S44 Mystere that went down and killed the pilot
during a test flight because of a Rotax 912 engine
failure (carburator failure I believe). There is
someonelse here that experienced forced landing after
an oil fitting broke in flight, resulting in loss of
oil and engine. Also a Rotax.
During a presentation at our local RAA chapter a few
years ago, a mechanic working on Lycoming engine was
discussing the various ADs for the engine and the many
failure that happened or could happen with the engine.
Very scary and it seemed to be very expensive to just
own one of those engines (At one point, Lycoming was
trying to resolve a problem with the oil pump and the
customer had to pay several times to get updates
during that experimentation period).
It seems to me that any engine can fail and as
builders, we should do our best to understand the
failures and make the corrections for our
installation. I'm not a pilot yet, but it appears
very clearly now that as pilot, we can also prepare
ourselves for engine failure and continue to walk even
after a severe accident.
Michel
do not archive
--- Ramperf@aol.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ramperf@aol.com
>
> Paul
> I have a hard time beleiving that you all
> would just give up on a
> Subaru engine because of one builder's problems. You
> are marking all builders or
> just one engine because of one builder. Ok, Stratus,
> has had his problems in
> areas that he has overlooked or left up to someone
> incompetent of doing the job,
> but don't use that to judge other builders. How many
> Rotax engines do you
> think have gone down? Lycom?Cont?Jabaru? And are
> they still using them , you bet!
> This maybe a "surface discussion" but I don't like
> being judged by the
> failures of others. Take the time to ask questions
> and do your homework, find out
> how many failures other builders have had and stay
> away from them! Not all
> builders build the same!!!!!!
> Thanks
> Ron
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Too many Zodiacs down! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ramperf@aol.com
Truth - my point- not mad just fact
This is exactly what is done by non-professional engine builders.
Do you hot tank the block, bore and hone with a deck plate, index
grind the crank, c-c the rods, properly install guides, spend the cash for new
camshafts,stainless valves, forged pistons, redirect the oil for the thrust of
the prop,teflon coat wear parts, make roller rockers, have special springs made
for the cam rpm,custom build aluminum oil pans for more oil, more cooling,
less crankcase pressure, have new bolts made for the heads and block, cc for
compression, make sure the block and heads are staight and equal, assemble with
the right lubes and have a clean room to do it in, do you know the inertia
values of the intake and the resonance tuning of the exhaust to the intake, test
your engine on your dyno before you even put it on the market---------- of
course you do thats why your a professional engine builder like me!
Ron
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Too many Zodiacs down! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed" <orion@silcom.com>
Guys.
I've been following the discussion lately on engines and the reason for the
discussion. It's sort of good news that both recent 'incidents' ended as
well as they did (Well done Phil and George) It gives me more faith in the
design of the plane.
But back to engines. There is nothing inherently wrong with any choice of
engine (in my view) provided you accept and can live with what that choice
is. Some engines are designed for airplanes and have a long history,
minutely scrutinized for every possible and actual failure, and some
recommendation coming from every incident. (SB's and AD's)
Some engines are designed for driving vehicles where there isn't the same
minute examination of every failure to ascertain whether it was caused by
poor manufacture, lack of quality control, poor design or just simply poorly
put together. As Grant said somewhere along the way...engines that have a
reputation for reliability in airplanes have built that reputation the hard
way...by constant vigilance on every failure and it's cause, by
investigation, by improvement. This to my mind is what you pay for when you
buy a currently used aviation engine.
There's a couple of things that have been said that I would like to try and
respond to...one is someone asked if anyone knew any A&P pilots...I know a
few and am one myself...they/we do exist, but the time and experience level
in each is unbalanced...one can't be both at a high level mainly because of
the time required in both fields to be "good". Each is a profession and I
suspect to be professional at one is at the expense of the other. I think
this is an important differentiation which applies equally to engine
manufacturers, overhaulers,repair shops...whatever. To build/repair good
airplane engines you need to specifically build/repair airplane engines. A
post on the process used by one 'builder' of engines I read with interest,
I'm sure he does a good job...but airplane engines are special, they are
designed to do what they do best and the best work in the world on an engine
designed to do something else will never reach the specific requirements of
what is being asked of it. (hope that makes sense)
I'm not against 'experimentation' per se, in factI think there are many
opportunities for other engines to be utilised in airplanes...and providing
you accept there might be unforseen problems...that's fine. If you are
careful and meticulous I see no reason to write of one engine against
another. But the bottom line is always going to be that an airplane engine
is different from a ground vehicle engine because of the operating
environment. High power required at critical moments and long periods of
65% -75% power.
Another....well I consider a misconception...is that a standard airplane
engine is gonna cost mega bucks to buy and maintain. (I'm touching wood on
this one!) If you install a standard..Lycoming or Continental in your
experimental plane...you can service it...no A&P required...and there is
plenty of them out there that will help you with information and even parts
(at a price I agree) Standard aircraft engines are not a mystery...they are
basic engines. There is a wealth of information out there and, ok...there
are AD's...but that is in the interest of safety...that's what AD's are
for...to try and prevent totalling your airplane because of a known engine
fault/bad part/recent failure/bad design...whatever. But there is also
quality control.
The other thing is, do you need a new engine? Admittedly had I been able to
afford a new one I would have done so...but there are good standard engines
out there that can be bought for very little and with common sense and
application turned into cheap alternatives to the new engines currently
available. Tap into that wealth of trial and error that has gone into these
engines...use what's out there. I'm not saying they don't have
problems...what I am saying is that the chances are less that something
unforseen will happen.
Guess I have sort of sounded off here...the problem with a few drinks on a
Friday night...but having been in aviation for 40years either as a mechanic
or as flight crew I do tend to get frustrated when there seems to be a lack
of understanding of what we are doing. I remember, and some may have seen
the sign that says something like "Aviation itself is not inherently
dangerous but like the sea it is terribly unforgiving of mistakes" Maintain
a healthy respect for what you are doing.
Ed 601hds/Lyc0-235
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