Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:51 AM - Re: Engine Selection (Phil & Michele Miller)
2. 01:18 AM - 912S Hard Starting (Phil & Michele Miller)
3. 04:12 AM - Re: 912S Hard Starting (Dave Austin)
4. 04:44 AM - Re: 912S Hard Starting (CBRxxDRV@aol.com)
5. 05:30 AM - Re: (Robert Rehmel)
6. 06:52 AM - Flight Service Station (Hal Rozema)
7. 06:52 AM - Flight Service Station (Hal Rozema)
8. 07:17 AM - Re: Get scientific was Too many Zodiacs down! (Garrou, Douglas)
9. 08:15 AM - Re: Get scientific was Too many Zodiacs down! (Benford2@aol.com)
10. 08:21 AM - Re: Flight Service Station (CBFLESHREN@aol.com)
11. 08:35 AM - Re: Get scientific was Too many Zodiacs down! (Benford2@aol.com)
12. 01:09 PM - Re: Get scientific was Too many Zodiacs down! (Don Walker)
13. 02:33 PM - Les Faucheurs de Marguerites: June 28, 29 (Carlos Sa)
14. 03:15 PM - Re: Les Faucheurs de Marguerites: June 28, 29 (Michel Therrien)
15. 04:28 PM - Re: Flight Service Station (Bill Howerton)
16. 07:20 PM - Re: 912S Hard Starting (Don Honabach)
17. 07:49 PM - Re: Flight Service Station (Gary Gower)
18. 08:35 PM - Mitchell Instruments... (Don Honabach)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Engine Selection |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller" <millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
Mike,
I think if you are going to offer an opinion against a particular
engine, it would be prudent for your own sake and fair to the
manufacturer if you offered some justification.
With respect,
Phil Miller
New Zealand
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Fothergill
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine Selection
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill
--> <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
Hi;
I personally prefer the 912S, but will recommend that you delete the
Jabiru 2200 from your list. The others are all OK. Mike C-FRND 912S UHS
Spinners
David Tellet wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Tellet <telletdl@erols.com>
>
> > List,
> >
> > I'm starting to jump the gun and look at engines for my HD. I
> > know there are a lot of choices out there and a lot of advocates for
> > each one. Right now I am looking for comments on power. I am
> > debating between the nominal 80hp of the Jabiru 2200 and Rotax 912,
> > or the 100+ of the 3300 or 912S. I know that the top end on the
> > draggy HD won't change much, but I wonder if there are other
> > advantages of the larger engines (climb, prop matching ...).
> >
> > JustPlaneSteve seems to be satisfied with his 912 powered HD.
> > Any other advise out there?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > David Tellet, 601HD, ~50% done
> >
>
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 2
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| Subject: | 912S Hard Starting |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller" <millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
This is a great list. Thanks very much to all who have offered help in
trying to resolve my starting problem. I have replied to many of you
individually and to others via this list. If I have failed to
acknowledge anyone, please accept my apologies.
To those who have suggested possible starter motor/cable/battery
problems, we have tried direct connecting 3 different large capacity
batteries using very short, super heavy leads with no improvement. I
have a ground cable from the engine back to the battery (not relying on
the airframe for grounding).
Someone suggested incorrect valve timing. I don't think this is the
cause as the engine runs very smoothly once it starts and it starts fine
when hot. Am I missing something here?
Yes, I have tried starting on L and R mags independently. No difference.
I don't have a primer or an electric fuel pump but the carbs flood very
quickly once the engine starts leaping around during cranking. I think I
have a problem with too much fuel rather than too little (carb floats
bouncing allowing fuel past float valves). It will even flood if the
starting is attempted with the fuel valve closed.
Sal, my engine is not one of those affected by SB-912-026
Guys, please don't stop offering suggestions if you think of anything
else. I sincerely appreciate it.
Regards,
Phil Miller
New Zealand
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 912S Hard Starting |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
Just one more time, Phil,
After all the checks you have done, the kickback and violent rocking you
describe surely can only be that the ignition is firing too soon before TDC.
I've never enquired of Rotax whether their ignition modules include a retard
function at low or starting rpm. If they do, that could be failing. If
not, I would try retarding the ignition up to five degrees. I don't recall
you mentioning a timing check under idling condition.
The flooding would almost certainly be the shaking disturbing the needle
valves. Which raises one more question.. what fuel pressure are you seeing
when you do these cold start attempts? No more than 4 lbs/sq.in.? I prime
with the electric pump, then turn it off. We've had builders here install
incorrect higher pressure pumps, which has caused all sorts of problems.
Are you using an unusually heavy prop, or a very flexible one which is
causing the crankshaft to "pulse"?
Bit of a pig getting to the stage you are and putting the money down.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 912S Hard Starting |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: CBRxxDRV@aol.com
In a message dated 6/22/03 4:18:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
millerpg@ps.gen.nz writes:
> Guys, please don't stop offering suggestions if you think of anything
> else. I sincerely appreciate it.
>
You seem to have most of the bases covered. The too much fuel
may be an issue since it floods so easy. The next time you
are going to park the plane let it run for a moment with the fuel off
to lower the fuel level in the carb bowl. let it sit till the next day.
Do not turn the fuel on and see how it cranks. Worth a try and beats
tearing down the carbs to check the float level.
Sal Capra
Lakeland, FL
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html">My Home Page
http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html
Message 5
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"David Tellet" <telletdl@erols.com>
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Rehmel" <traveler601@earthlink.net>
I just finished that part. I could not find anywhere were it said to rivet
the seat in. I finally just checked the rest of the steps, checked the
fit, and just riveted it in place. Just watch out for the "No rivet zones"
and where the supports come off of the sides of the seat back that go to
the baggage floor. Otherwise I just riveted it together and put it in that
way it stabilizes the center wing section. Then you can add the tail
section.
> [Original Message]
> From: David Tellet <telletdl@erols.com>
> To: Zenith Listserver <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 6/21/2003 2:57:36 PM
> Subject: Zenith-List:
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Tellet <telletdl@erols.com>
>
> > List,
> >
> > I am at the last part of the center wing assembly sequence for my
> > HD (just prior to bungee installation in the Zenith manual) but I'm not
> > sure when I need to (or can) rivet in the seat structure, seatbelt side
> > attachments etc. The manual seems to show the seats out of the section
> > when attaching and aligning the rear fuselage section, but there
> > doesn't seem to be an explicit step where the seats go back in and get
> > riveted. Any thoughts?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > David Tellet, 601HD, ~50% done
> >
>
>
>
>
>
--- Robert Rehmel
--- traveler601@earthlink.net
Message 6
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Geoff Hoffman <salientdigital@cox.net>, James Berdick <homebltjcb@aol.com>,
Joe Norris EAA Information <jnorris@eaa.org>,
Mariann <info@arizonaaviation.com>, Richard Brown <resat44@access4less.net>,
RALEIGH GRIFFIN <ninewheels@aol.com>,
to send to Jodel Group <jodel@yahoogroups.com>,
ZENITH GROUP <zenith-list@matronics.com>
| Subject: | Flight Service Station |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema <hartist1@cox.net>
Declared emergency, interesting tape
Hal
Message 7
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Geoff Hoffman <salientdigital@cox.net>, James Berdick <homebltjcb@aol.com>,
Joe Norris EAA Information <jnorris@eaa.org>,
Mariann <info@arizonaaviation.com>, Richard Brown <resat44@access4less.net>,
RALEIGH GRIFFIN <ninewheels@aol.com>,
to send to Jodel Group <jodel@yahoogroups.com>,
ZENITH GROUP <zenith-list@matronics.com>
| Subject: | Flight Service Station |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema <hartist1@cox.net>
Declared emergency, interesting tape
http://www.naats.org/docs/flightassist.mp3
Hal
Message 8
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| Subject: | Get scientific was Too many Zodiacs down! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
I know so little about engines that it's laughable. But I actually take a
lot of comfort from the fact that Lycosauruses and other certified engines
have ADs issued on them from time to time. This means that somebody who
DOES know something is systematically evaluating the safety and reliability
of these engines in the field, and taking steps to ensure continued safety.
To me, the relevant question about auto conversions such as the Stratus Soob
is: how many ADs WOULD there be on them IF they were subject to that
regime? What would the ADs say? Would they ground the engine?
Opinions are like noses -- most everybody has one, and some may well be
worse than others. But here's mine: at this point, I wouldn't fly behind
an auto conversion over the Salt Flats on a CAVU day with an airframe
parachute and a gun held to my head. I fly for fun, and my life has enough
excitement without the fan quitting on me.
Flying behind a Lycosaurus, I can reasonably expect that I won't experience
the fan quitting in 10,000 hours, and if I do I can reasonably expect it
will be because I stupidly ran out of gas. Not a 100 percent expectation,
of course, but still reasonable. Not sure anyone can say that about any
auto conversion.
Actually, I suppose, due to the lack of data, none of us knows one way or
another what we can really say about auto conversion reliability. But to
me, we don't just lack knowledge about the problem; the very lack of
knowledge IS a problem in itself, since it prevents me from making
reasonable guesstimates about risk.
Doug "the flying chicken" Garrou
Project 801 www.garrou.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Get scientific was Too many Zodiacs down! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 6/22/2003 8:18:36 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
dgarrou@hunton.com writes:
>
> Opinions are like noses -- most everybody has one, and some may well be
> worse than others. But here's mine: at this point, I wouldn't fly behind
> an auto conversion over the Salt Flats on a CAVU day with an airframe
> parachute and a gun held to my head. I fly for fun, and my life has enough
> excitement without the fan quitting on me.
>
>
That is quite a bold statement to make. If you could not land safely within
the parameters you quote above you might want to rethink your flying skills.
Surely you heard about the Lycoming fiasco last year and this in which the FAA
issued an emergency AD because of faulty crankshafts in the 6 cylinder Lycs.
After a pretty tense legal battle and a few deaths Lycoming " a CERTIFIED engine
" admitted there "might " be a small problem. So they grounded the fleet of
that model of 550 engines and re- engineered the cranks, the FAA reviewed the
whole quality control program at Lycoming and they reforged a new batch of
cranks in a Texas forging plant. Of course the Faa and Lycoming forgot to
monitor this run of cranks and they issued them to all the people who were grounded
for the previous AD. A new style CERTIFIED crank was installed in a Piper
Malibu owned by an attorney and he promply resumed flying behind this CERTIFIED
engine. That crank broke and, the good news is another lawyer was killed. The
bad news is so was his innocent family. So, lets review the numbers. Certified
engines- 5 dead. Auto conversions that are being discussed on the Zenith list
0 deaths. Of course I am not being too serious here and Doud is a fellow 801
builder so we must stick together. And I will be running a V-8 all aluminum
Ford I am just finishing up with, so time and gravity will tell.
Ben Haas N801BH. Jackson Hole Wy.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Flight Service Station |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: CBFLESHREN@aol.com
In a message dated 6/22/2003 9:53:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
hartist1@cox.net writes:
> Declared emergency, interesting tape
>
> http://www.naats.org/docs/flightassist.mp3
>
> Hal
>
Great one Hal, educational on two fronts. I'm sure you'll get plenty of
"forwarding" of this to aviation folk. Too bad it's not the kind of thing the
general public would view objectively as the "Union's" defense and/or lessons
learned. Out of ignorance it would probably scare more people from G.A.
That's life I guess :-) Chris Do Not Archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Get scientific was Too many Zodiacs down! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 6/22/2003 9:16:34 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
Benford2@aol.com writes:
> here and Doud is a fellow 801
OOPS !!!
Sorry, It should have said DOUG.
Ben Haas N801BH.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Get scientific was Too many Zodiacs down! |
Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 15:09:14 -0500
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" <dwalk3dw@msn.com>
Nothing wrong with being conservative, but most fears are based on fantasy.
It is clear that we have a forum where both fears and ignorance are okay to share.
I certainly have. Ignorance and delusion will get us killed, however.
It seems clear that the Subaru would not be grounded at all if it went through
the rigorous scrutiny of the certified engines. My guess is it would be used
more, and that is after my own personal problems with my Stratus. I don't think
it is the Soob, but is the lack of refinement and coordination of the systems.
WE are the development of the Subaru engine in this forum, along with lots
of others. If you are not interested in that aspect of aviation, then a certified
engine is the only ticket. Nothing wrong with that peace of mind. d
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Garrou, Douglas
To: 'zenith-list@matronics.com'
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 9:14 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Get scientific was Too many Zodiacs down!
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
I know so little about engines that it's laughable. But I actually take a
lot of comfort from the fact that Lycosauruses and other certified engines
have ADs issued on them from time to time. This means that somebody who
DOES know something is systematically evaluating the safety and reliability
of these engines in the field, and taking steps to ensure continued safety.
To me, the relevant question about auto conversions such as the Stratus Soob
is: how many ADs WOULD there be on them IF they were subject to that
regime? What would the ADs say? Would they ground the engine?
Opinions are like noses -- most everybody has one, and some may well be
worse than others. But here's mine: at this point, I wouldn't fly behind
an auto conversion over the Salt Flats on a CAVU day with an airframe
parachute and a gun held to my head. I fly for fun, and my life has enough
excitement without the fan quitting on me.
Flying behind a Lycosaurus, I can reasonably expect that I won't experience
the fan quitting in 10,000 hours, and if I do I can reasonably expect it
will be because I stupidly ran out of gas. Not a 100 percent expectation,
of course, but still reasonable. Not sure anyone can say that about any
auto conversion.
Actually, I suppose, due to the lack of data, none of us knows one way or
another what we can really say about auto conversion reliability. But to
me, we don't just lack knowledge about the problem; the very lack of
knowledge IS a problem in itself, since it prevents me from making
reasonable guesstimates about risk.
Doug "the flying chicken" Garrou
Project 801 www.garrou.com
Message 13
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| Subject: | Les Faucheurs de Marguerites: June 28, 29 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Hello, listers
The Sherbrooke fly-in (Les Faucheurs de Marguerites) is next weekend (June 28,
29).
http://www.lesfaucheurs.com/
I plan to be there, probably Saturday.
Who else will be there, and when?
Carlos
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Les Faucheurs de Marguerites: June 28, 29 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
I plan on being there on Saturday as well.
--- Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa
> <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
>
> Hello, listers
>
>
> The Sherbrooke fly-in (Les Faucheurs de Marguerites)
> is next weekend (June 28, 29).
>
> http://www.lesfaucheurs.com/
>
> I plan to be there, probably Saturday.
>
> Who else will be there, and when?
>
> Carlos
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> latest messages.
> List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm
> Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Flight Service Station |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" <Bill@Howerton.com>
Definitely an eye-opener of a tape! Suddenly all that time my CFI made me
spend under the hood doesn't seem all that bad.
Message 16
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| Subject: | 912S Hard Starting |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" <don@pcperfect.com>
Not being an expert, but I figured the engine would be more difficult to
turn when cold - major assumptions on my part, but sometimes my thoughts
stick :)
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: David & Maria Lumgair [mailto:dlummy@visi.net]
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 912S Hard Starting
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair"
--> <dlummy@visi.net>
Don,
I am with you completely with one exception - this statement...
> It doesn't take much for the starter to not get enough power to spin
> the engine quick enough especially when cold.
Seems to me that when electric motors (starters) are cold the are very
efficient - when they are hot...not so. hence the heat shield over the
starter on most vehicles. This doesn't rule out the other possibilities
though...wires, etc... Start with the simple things - I think you are
right on.
Dave
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Flight Service Station |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
This is the data from Landings of the plane involved in the emergency
on the tape:
N-number : N95L
Aircraft Serial Number : 15383
Aircraft Manufacturer : CESSNA
Model : 140A
Engine Manufacturer : CONT MOTOR
Model : C90 SERIES
Aircraft Year : 1950
Owner Name : KERR JOHN
Owner Address : 1100 PEARL DR
HORSESHOE BEND, AR, 72512-3842
Registration Date : 30-May-1985
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Multiple
Airworthiness Types : Standard, Restricted
Approved Operations : Other
--- Hal Rozema <hartist1@cox.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema <hartist1@cox.net>
>
> Declared emergency, interesting tape
>
> http://www.naats.org/docs/flightassist.mp3
>
> Hal
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Message 18
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| Subject: | Mitchell Instruments... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" <don@pcperfect.com>
I'm trying to figure out how to mount 2 Mitchell Fuel Guages that I
bought a couple years back (basically 1 by 1" square fronts). Having a
hard time coming up with a good way to mount on the panel. There isn't
any lip on the front and mounting it totally flush just doesn't seem
right.
If someone has mounted this guys before, could you please e-mail me a
photo or let me know how you mounted the instruments.
Thanks!
Don Honabach
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