---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/20/03: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:48 AM - Re: Kit Planes (Phil & Michele Miller) 2. 04:52 AM - Insurance (Philip Polstra) 3. 04:59 AM - Re: Insurance (David & Maria Lumgair) 4. 09:18 AM - Re: Seat belt attachments (Bruce Bockius) 5. 09:18 AM - Re: Kit Planes (Greg Ferris) 6. 11:30 AM - Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS (Leo Gates) 7. 11:45 AM - Cortec 373 (H. Robert Schoenberger) 8. 02:21 PM - Re: Cortec 373 (Flydog1966@aol.com) 9. 02:36 PM - Re: Cortec 373 (Rich) 10. 02:38 PM - Re: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS (Philip Polstra) 11. 02:40 PM - Fuel tank (Dave Pepper) 12. 05:06 PM - Re: Seat belt attachments (Dr. Perry Morrison) 13. 05:56 PM - Re: Cortec 373 (Mark Stauffer) 14. 06:00 PM - save your butt (Jeff Small) 15. 06:02 PM - Re: Fuel tank (Larry McFarland) 16. 06:14 PM - Re: save your butt (Dr. Perry Morrison) 17. 06:16 PM - Re: Fuel tank (Dave Pepper) 18. 06:17 PM - Re: Fuel tank (Dave Pepper) 19. 06:27 PM - Re: save your butt (Jeff Small) 20. 06:42 PM - one more time (Jeff Small) 21. 07:01 PM - Re: save your butt (Bill Morelli) 22. 07:08 PM - RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 (michael michael) 23. 07:37 PM - Re: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 (Philip Polstra) 24. 07:45 PM - Re: save your butt (Bruce Bockius) 25. 07:49 PM - Re: save your butt (Zodie Rocket) 26. 07:57 PM - Re: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 (Bill Howerton) 27. 07:58 PM - Re: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 (Zodie Rocket) 28. 09:58 PM - Re: Fuel tank (Bryan Martin) 29. 10:08 PM - Re: Fuel tank (Dave Pepper) 30. 10:27 PM - Re: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 (michael michael) 31. 10:42 PM - Re: Fuel tank (Bryan Martin) 32. 10:51 PM - Re: Fuel tank (Dave Pepper) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:48:17 AM PST US From: "Phil & Michele Miller" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller" How many necks have you got, Greg? Cheers, Phil Miller New Zealand (Do not archive) -----Original Message----- >> I used to think that flying tended to give me stiff necks. Actually I found that it was flying a 150 that gave me stiff necks. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit Planes > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > > Faster cruise?...Are you sure about that? > > Its been a while since I flew a 152 but I thought it did a little > better than the 110mph of the HDS (well of MY HDS anyway). > > Even if it is faster, the point is its is similar (on paper at least) > at less money and the 152 does not APPEAR to lose value as fast. > > At 2/3rds the price (and zero building time) it makes the 601 a tough > financial choice to many folks. > > Frank > > Do not archive > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Polstra [mailto:ppolstra@mindspring.com] > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit Planes > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra" > --> > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > > >In fact considering that a good used 152 can be had for less than > >$20k, Vs $30+ for the 601 and it gets real hard. Mind you, with 100Hp > >the 152/172 owners think we have rocket ships when > they > >watch us take off! > > > You can't even compare a CH601HDS or a CH601XL to a clunky old Cessna. > Faster climb, cruise, better payload, and half the fuel load, not to mention > more comfort. That's why I'm selling shares in the CH601XL, Alarus CH2000, > and CH640 at my flight school, but not in a Cessna. > > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. > Share: Share photos & files with other List members. > > direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:25 AM PST US From: "Philip Polstra" Subject: Zenith-List: Insurance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra" I finally got paid by the insurance company. Thirty four days after my poor little Zodiac was totalled. The insurance company (AIG) said they would overnight me a check, then "forgot" to do so. I was originally going to get my brand new Alarus CH2000 tomorrow, but will now have to wait till Wednesday. Incidently, did you know that you can buy a completed CH640, CH601XL, and CH701 from the factory down here in Georgia! If anyone wants to know more, e-mail me off the list. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:54 AM PST US From: "David & Maria Lumgair" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Insurance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair" I'd be curious to know what they want for them - Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Polstra" Subject: Zenith-List: Insurance > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra" > > I finally got paid by the insurance company. Thirty four days after my poor > little Zodiac was totalled. The insurance company (AIG) said they would > overnight me a check, then "forgot" to do so. I was originally going to get > my brand new Alarus CH2000 tomorrow, but will now have to wait till > Wednesday. > > Incidently, did you know that you can buy a completed CH640, CH601XL, and > CH701 from the factory down here in Georgia! If anyone wants to know more, > e-mail me off the list. > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:08 AM PST US From: "Bruce Bockius" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Seat belt attachments --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Bockius" Our EAA chapter just had a speaker, a doctor (and pilot and builder of a Skybolt and an RV-4) give a talk on crash survivability. One of the things he covered was how many g's the human body could take and survive. He asserted that you could take the following: Horizontal G forces: 50g's for up to 3 seconds and still be able to walk away from the crash 100-200g's for 0.003 seconds and still be alive. That would be a pretty impressive seatbelt. (Actually I bet the seatbelt webbing could take this; it's the attach points, as always, that limit everything.) Vertical G forces: He said military ejection seats are designed to produce 20g's, with a design criteria of not more than 10% of ejectees suffering compressive fractures of their spine from the accelerator. This is apparently a pretty fine line though, with 25g's being fatal. He personally thought since the human body can withstand many more horizontal g's than vertical, plus that most aircraft have much more 'crush space' ahead of you than below you, that in an emergency landing in the always-to-short clearing he would much rather run into the trees at the end than to prang it down onto the ground in an effort to avoid the trees. On the positive side the ZAC designs pretty much described his safest plane: tractor design, metal (actually steel tube & fabric was a little safer he said), slow stall speeds. -Bruce/601HD/Stratus/TDO/375hrs > I also went through the calculations and it appeared that the 0.040 > straps were sized for the 175 lb person for 9 gs. Didn't > look like the > 1.33 was used for the fitting sizes. But my straps in the kit appear > to be 0.063. I still beefed them up a little to prevent the > bolt from > pulling through and because I doubt I'll see 175 again. > > > David Tellet, 601HD, ~50% done ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:36 AM PST US From: "Greg Ferris" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Greg Ferris" Why I have 1 neck Phil (thank you for your concern in the matter), but I had a stiff neck on many occaisions while peering under the wing of my 150. Greg do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil & Michele Miller" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit Planes > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller" > > How many necks have you got, Greg? > > Cheers, > Phil Miller > New Zealand > (Do not archive) > > > -----Original Message----- > >> I used to think that flying tended to give me stiff necks. Actually > I found that it was flying a 150 that gave me stiff necks. > > Greg > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > To: > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit Planes > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > > > > > Faster cruise?...Are you sure about that? > > > > Its been a while since I flew a 152 but I thought it did a little > > better than the 110mph of the HDS (well of MY HDS anyway). > > > > Even if it is faster, the point is its is similar (on paper at least) > > at less money and the 152 does not APPEAR to lose value as fast. > > > > At 2/3rds the price (and zero building time) it makes the 601 a tough > > financial choice to many folks. > > > > Frank > > > > Do not archive > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Philip Polstra [mailto:ppolstra@mindspring.com] > > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit Planes > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra" > > --> > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > > > > >In fact considering that a good used 152 can be had for less than > > >$20k, Vs $30+ for the 601 and it gets real hard. Mind you, with 100Hp > > > >the 152/172 owners think we have rocket ships when > > they > > >watch us take off! > > > > > > You can't even compare a CH601HDS or a CH601XL to a clunky old Cessna. > > > Faster climb, cruise, better payload, and half the fuel load, not to > mention > > more comfort. That's why I'm selling shares in the CH601XL, Alarus > CH2000, > > and CH640 at my flight school, but not in a Cessna. > > > > > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. > > Share: Share photos & files with other List members. > > > > > > > direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:30:39 AM PST US From: Leo Gates Subject: Zenith-List: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: Leo Gates After five years I have some real progress to report! Those that don't care, hit the delete key now. N601Z (Tail dragger kit), Rotax 912UL. 74" Magnum Ivoprop (in-flight adjustable), Castrol Superbike oil, 70 percent Prestone anti-freeze and 30 percent distilled water, 87 Octane Chevron unleaded autogas. I used an off-board 1 gal. fuel can and Facet fuel pump plumbed to the inlet side of the engine fuel pump. This engine has been "pickled" for five years, so I was expecting to crank for a bit. Surprise, 2-3 seconds after engaging the starter, it fired right up - AND PURRRED! NO LEAKS! I ran it over 15 minutes, about 5 minutes at full power. The water and oil temps were up to 210 F and stable. Was able to get up to 5700 static RPM. 5300 seemed about right. No cowling. Oil cooler on nose. Rotax radiator 4" forward of the firewall, across the bottom. Now the question is, when does she take to the skies? Right now she is on her gear with rudder, engine and instrument panel installed. Horizontal stab. and wings built. Need to install horizontal stab., wings, cover rear top fuselage and build/install canopy. Please, land wheel side down. Leo Gates Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:45:23 AM PST US From: "H. Robert Schoenberger" Subject: Zenith-List: Cortec 373 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "H. Robert Schoenberger" List . . . I've ordered a quart of Cortec 373 from ZAC to try in my basement "aircraft factory". I was pretty excited about getting a non-toxic non-flamable corrosion protector until I realized that I still have to clean the surface prior to the corrosion protector. I asked Nick about this and he said they use lacquer thinner. This is probably all right in a big hanger like they have but a no-no in my basement workshop which shares space with two 75 gallon open flame hot water heaters. I've had good luck removing Sharpie markings etc. from the skins with an organic product called De-Solv-it which is used primarily to remove labels, etc. Or perhaps a good rub with the maroon scotch brite and then cleaning with a damp cloth might do the trick. I would appreciate any thoughts you might have on suitable non-toxic / non-flamable products or procedures which can be used prior to the application of the 373. Thank you Hap Schoenberger 701 tail done, working on right wing. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:21 PM PST US From: Flydog1966@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cortec 373 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com In regards to cleaning the alum before priming, does anybody go with the Alumiprep, and Alodine, steps before priming? And how come Zenith skips that? Thanks. do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:36:58 PM PST US From: "Rich" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cortec 373 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rich" I used the alodine on some parts only, works great but because of the quantities involved to do the entire plane, I changed my mind. So I tried something called Cameo, Aluminum & Stainless Steel cleaner. It's sold in the kitchen isle almost anywhere to clean pots & pans. I tried it on the rudder & it works great! The surface stayed clean & oxidation free for a year just like the day I cleaned it. Use this with the correct scotchbrite pads & you won't be dissappointed. Rich 801 ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cortec 373 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com > > In regards to cleaning the alum before priming, does anybody go with the > Alumiprep, and Alodine, steps before priming? And how come Zenith skips that? > Thanks. > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:17 PM PST US From: "Philip Polstra" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra" --> Zenith-List message posted by: Leo Gates Now the question is, when does she take to the skies? Right now she is on her gear with rudder, engine and instrument panel installed. Horizontal stab. and wings built. Need to install horizontal stab., wings, cover rear top fuselage and build/install canopy. Sounds like you are pretty close! Let us know when the big day arrives. do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:47 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel tank --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" The person I bought my fuselage from had already built the header tank out of aluminum. He installed 6 outlets.....1 to feed the gascolator, 1 each on the lower left and right sides, and 3 at the top facing the instrument panel. I don't think all these outlets are required. Is it acceptable to replace some of these fuel outlets with brass plugs? What thread sealer should be used on fuel tank fittings? Also, is there some type of fuel level sender which could be incorporated into one of the fuel outlets in the upper vertical tank wall? Does anyone have any comments on the ZAC gascolator? Seems like an expensive aluminum box, with no filter screen, and not worth the $49. Thank you....Dave ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:38 PM PST US From: "Dr. Perry Morrison" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Seat belt attachments --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison" These are all good points, the most important being than seat builts do almost nothing for a vertical deceleration/impact. I believe that it doesn't take too many Gs on a vertical impact to rupture the aorta. A local cessna 210 crashed a few years back and apart from the wings being slightly drooped it looked like the impact was almost trivial. But the vertical deceleration killed all 6. So obviously what we all need is an airbag system for our butt! Perry Morrison Bruce Bockius wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Bockius" Our EAA chapter just had a speaker, a doctor (and pilot and builder of a Skybolt and an RV-4) give a talk on crash survivability. One of the things he covered was how many g's the human body could take and survive. He asserted that you could take the following: Horizontal G forces: 50g's for up to 3 seconds and still be able to walk away from the crash 100-200g's for 0.003 seconds and still be alive. That would be a pretty impressive seatbelt. (Actually I bet the seatbelt webbing could take this; it's the attach points, as always, that limit everything.) Vertical G forces: He said military ejection seats are designed to produce 20g's, with a design criteria of not more than 10% of ejectees suffering compressive fractures of their spine from the accelerator. This is apparently a pretty fine line though, with 25g's being fatal. He personally thought since the human body can withstand many more horizontal g's than vertical, plus that most aircraft have much more 'crush space' ahead of you than below you, that in an emergency landing in the always-to-short clearing he would much rather run into the trees at the end than to prang it down onto the ground in an effort to avoid the trees. On the positive side the ZAC designs pretty much described his safest plane: tractor design, metal (actually steel tube & fabric was a little safer he said), slow stall speeds. -Bruce/601HD/Stratus/TDO/375hrs > I also went through the calculations and it appeared that the 0.040 > straps were sized for the 175 lb person for 9 gs. Didn't > look like the > 1.33 was used for the fitting sizes. But my straps in the kit appear > to be 0.063. I still beefed them up a little to prevent the > bolt from > pulling through and because I doubt I'll see 175 again. > > > David Tellet, 601HD, ~50% done __________________________ Dr. Perry Morrison Morrison Associates Pty Ltd +61 08 89 88 4617 0408892638 perrymorrison@yahoo.com __________________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:25 PM PST US From: "Mark Stauffer" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Cortec 373 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" After going round and round, getting many different opinions and suggestions, I decided to use the Alumiprep and Alodine. The Alumiprep is very easy to work with. I mix a small batch in a glass bowl and use one of those kitchen sponges with the scotch brite pad on the back. I lightly scrub the parts with the scotch brite pad and then rinse with water until the water sheens on the part. The Anodine is a bit more troublesome. I lay all the parts out and then brush it on straight with a foam brush. I let it sit for awhile and then rinse it with water. I get a slight "goldish" tint on the metal. My spray on Zinc Oxide primer seems to adhere a little better when I use the Alodyne. FWIW. Mark Stauffer 601 XL N996XL (reserved) Tail finished. Skinning first wing. do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Flydog1966@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cortec 373 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com In regards to cleaning the alum before priming, does anybody go with the Alumiprep, and Alodine, steps before priming? And how come Zenith skips that? Thanks. do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:32 PM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Zenith-List: save your butt Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:01:50 -0400 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" >So obviously what we all need is an airbag system for our butt! ...and the best you can do there is green and blue Temperfoam - made with that in mind. do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:28 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tank --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Is it acceptable to replace some of these fuel outlets with brass plugs? What thread sealer should be used on fuel tank fittings? Also, is there some type of fuel level sender which could be incorporated into one of the fuel outlets in the upper vertical tank wall? > > Does anyone have any comments on the ZAC gascolator? Seems like an expensive aluminum box, with no filter screen, and not worth the $49. > > Thank you....Dave Dave, Brass plugs work if that's all you have. Use a little Anti-Seize to protect the threads from locking up. A gascolator from Wicks or Aircraft Spruce would probably be a better bargan regardless the price. Fuel level senders are a matter of choice. Most use the float and coil contact type available from Wicks or JC Whitney. Larry McFarland - 601hds at www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:14 PM PST US From: "Dr. Perry Morrison" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: save your butt --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison" Hi Jeff, I live on the other side of the Pacific so I'd be unlikely to trace this. Is there a URL you can supply? Perry Morrison Jeff Small wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" >So obviously what we all need is an airbag system for our butt! ...and the best you can do there is green and blue Temperfoam - made with that in mind. do not archive __________________________ Dr. Perry Morrison Morrison Associates Pty Ltd +61 08 89 88 4617 0408892638 perrymorrison@yahoo.com __________________________ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:14 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tank --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Larry, Thanks for the comments. I guess I could connect hoses to the lower left and right fuel outlets, and rout them to each wing locker tank, if I decide to install them. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tank > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" > > > Is it acceptable to replace some of these fuel outlets with brass plugs? > What thread sealer should be used on fuel tank fittings? Also, is there some > type of fuel level sender which could be incorporated into one of the fuel > outlets in the upper vertical tank wall? > > > > Does anyone have any comments on the ZAC gascolator? Seems like an > expensive aluminum box, with no filter screen, and not worth the $49. > > > > Thank you....Dave > > Dave, > Brass plugs work if that's all you have. Use a little Anti-Seize to protect > the threads from locking up. A gascolator from Wicks or Aircraft Spruce > would > probably be a better bargan regardless the price. Fuel level senders are a > matter > of choice. Most use the float and coil contact type available from Wicks or > JC Whitney. > Larry McFarland - 601hds at www.macsmachine.com > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:04 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tank --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Also, what type of fuel flter are most builders using between the gascolator and the engine driven pump? Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tank > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" > > > Is it acceptable to replace some of these fuel outlets with brass plugs? > What thread sealer should be used on fuel tank fittings? Also, is there some > type of fuel level sender which could be incorporated into one of the fuel > outlets in the upper vertical tank wall? > > > > Does anyone have any comments on the ZAC gascolator? Seems like an > expensive aluminum box, with no filter screen, and not worth the $49. > > > > Thank you....Dave > > Dave, > Brass plugs work if that's all you have. Use a little Anti-Seize to protect > the threads from locking up. A gascolator from Wicks or Aircraft Spruce > would > probably be a better bargan regardless the price. Fuel level senders are a > matter > of choice. Most use the float and coil contact type available from Wicks or > JC Whitney. > Larry McFarland - 601hds at www.macsmachine.com > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:59 PM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: save your butt Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:29:07 -0400 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" I live on the other side of the Pacific so I'd be unlikely to trace this. Is there a URL you can supply? ...and the best you can do there is green and blue Temperfoam - made with that in mind. www.seatfoam.com - they're calling it Confor Foam now but it's the same stuff - made for the Apollo astronauts' seats. http://www.matronics.com/YellerPages/ - This site has everything (well almost) an experimental builder could want. It's a long search through it but you'll turn up something. Another of Mr. Dralle's free offerings to us. do not archive ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:20 PM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Zenith-List: one more time Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:43:26 -0400 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" Let's try this again... Guys, could you please, please, PLEASE, not include the entire original post to which you are responding. The following is taken directly from the Matronics Zenith-List Usage Guidelines: - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! Some posts last week got to be seven messages deep! Thanks for being considerate. Regards Jeff do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:12 PM PST US From: Bill Morelli Subject: Re: Zenith-List: save your butt --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Morelli You can also get temperfoam from Wicks Aircraft Supply at www.wicksaircraft.com They sell it precut or by the foot. Regards, Bill >I live on the other side of the Pacific so I'd be unlikely to trace this. >Is there a URL >you can supply? ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:44 PM PST US From: "michael michael" Subject: Zenith-List: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "michael michael" I`m intrested in the 640. & would love to build it if it was more inline. with what else is on the market. or offered more. Prpunching goes a very long way to swaying my mind... can you builders tell me what its like to measure all your holes...is it easy? hard....do you make alot of mistakes. I would like to build the 640. I`m in toronto only 60 miles from head office....but The RV-7 & 640 weight almost the same. meaning there is the same amount of metal in both. But the 640 is about $7000.00 more & not a prepunched hole to be seen... I realy like the 640. But its a matter of money & skill......What i dont understand is why the 640 is so much money.....there is no prepunching.... How does VAN`s make his kits so cheap. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:58 PM PST US From: "Philip Polstra" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "michael michael" >can you builders tell me what its like to measure all your holes...is it >easy? hard....do you make alot of mistakes. It is easy to measure the holes. I would guess that most of the flat pieces would come predrilled by Zenith. That is how my 601 was. >The RV-7 & 640 weight almost the same. meaning there is the same amount of >metal in both. >But the 640 is about $7000.00 more & not a prepunched hole to be seen... Different forms of metal cost different amounts, you really can't go just by the weight. Also, the Avex rivets are more expensive than the blind rivets. I really doubt that you could build an RV-7 in the same time or less than what you would spend building the 640. Dimpling all those holes and bucking the rivets takes lots of time. Don't forget you are also comparing a 2-seat kit to a 4-seat kit. Not exactly an apples to apples comparision. The CH640 is much roomier, and has over 1000 lb. useful load. If you don't have time to build a CH640, you can buy one factory-built for only $10k more than the cost of a new Alarus CH2000 with the same equipment. Not a bad deal given the extra seats, more metal, and bigger engine. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:16 PM PST US From: "Bruce Bockius" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: save your butt --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Bockius" > >So obviously what we all need is an airbag system for our butt! > > ...and the best you can do there is green and blue Temperfoam > - made with that in mind. Indeed, the doctor in the crash survival talk specifically mentioned Temperfoam as being a good idea. He demonstrated dropping a golf ball on urethane foam from about a 2' height; it bounced probably 1' high. Then he dropped the ball on a sample of temperfoam from the same height; it bounced maybe 1/4". He said there was little difference between blue and green. -Bruce ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:08 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: save your butt --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <601xl@sympatico.ca> I've installed this foam in the seat bottoms and seat backs in my 601XL. I spent the extra bucks just for the extra comfort on any distance travels, it is nice to know that it will be safer as well. Mark Townsend 601XL EA-82MPFI Turbo Alma, Ontario. Canada -----Original Message----- I live on the other side of the Pacific so I'd be unlikely to trace this. Is there a URL you can supply? ...and the best you can do there is green and blue Temperfoam - made with that in mind. www.seatfoam.com - they're calling it Confor Foam now but it's the same stuff - made for the Apollo astronauts' seats. http://www.matronics.com/YellerPages/ - This site has everything (well almost) an experimental builder could want. It's a long search through it but you'll turn up something. Another of Mr. Dralle's free offerings to us. do not archive ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:08 PM PST US From: "Bill Howerton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" As far as RV's prices, I can't comment, but as far as measuring and drilling all your own holes is concerned I can speak with some authority. There are pluses and minuses associated with both. The pluses are mainly that you really get to know the dimensions of your airplane -- down to the last rib. You get a much deeper understanding of the design and the structure. For many of us, this is our first real exposure to aircraft construction, so this knowledge is in many ways a great thing to have. Yes, we do make mistakes from time to time, and yes these mistakes occasionally require us to throw parts away and either remake them, or to re-order them -- I ruined two parts today myself by transposing the blueprints, luckily, they were both very simple to remake. But to tell you the truth, I really feel that I have a much deeper understanding of the design of my airplane than if I'd simply put in rivets where I'd been told to put them in. But then, hey - maybe you're not interested in gaining this knowledge - perhaps you're only interested in getting the thing built, and you don't really care WHY the plane was designed the way it is, you just want to get it built and get it into the air - if so, so be it. it's really up to you. This board spent allot of time doing an RV vs. ZAC comparison last week. The RV is faster, but the ZAC is usually easier to build... yada yada yada. The bottom line is this: This is a hobby; a pastime; something that gives us joy. We each selected the ZAC for our own reasons. If you decide the RV is more to your liking, more power to you. This is all about personal choice. For me, I wanted an easy-to-build airplane that would let me learn about aircraft construction, but you may have different motivations. do not archive Bill Howerton -- 601 XL Rudder: Done Stabilizer: Done Elevator: 85% done ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael michael" Subject: Zenith-List: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "michael michael" > > I`m intrested in the 640. & would love to build it if it was more inline. > with what else is on the market. or offered more. Prpunching goes a very > long way to swaying my mind... > > can you builders tell me what its like to measure all your holes...is it > easy? hard....do you make alot of mistakes. > > I would like to build the 640. I`m in toronto only 60 miles from head > office....but > > The RV-7 & 640 weight almost the same. meaning there is the same amount of > metal in both. > But the 640 is about $7000.00 more & not a prepunched hole to be seen... > > I realy like the 640. But its a matter of money & skill......What i dont > understand is why the 640 is so much money.....there is no prepunching.... > How does VAN`s make his kits so cheap. > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:09 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Michael, not a fair comparison. Match Vans RV 10 to the Zenith 640. then you are talking about comparable planes. IF your curious about Zenith construction methods then drop by for a visit. I live only an hour away from you and I'm building a 601XL from plans only. I'm hoping to build the 640 next but the wife and I are having a battle over it. She wants the Bearhawk. I'm going to take her to Oshkosh in a couple of weeks and show her how much sewing she will have to do on the fabric Fuselage of the Bearhawk. That should convince her on the 640. Mark Townsend 601XL EA-82 MPFI Turbo Alma, Ontario. -----Original Message----- The RV-7 & 640 weight almost the same. meaning there is the same amount of metal in both. But the 640 is about $7000.00 more & not a prepunched hole to be seen... I realy like the 640. But its a matter of money & skill......What i dont understand is why the 640 is so much money.....there is no prepunching.... How does VAN`s make his kits so cheap. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tank From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 7/20/03 9:16 PM, Dave Pepper at rockinrimranch@earthlink.net wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" > > > Also, what type of fuel flter are most builders using between the gascolator > and the engine driven pump? > > Dave > None! The fuel filter should go between the fuel pump and the carburetor, you are less likely to have vapor lock problems that way. If a filter before the pump becomes partly clogged, the pump will draw suction on the line between the filter and the pump which can cause the fuel to vaporize at the inlet to the pump. The pump will not pump vapor and fuel flow will stop, this is vapor lock. A partially clogged filter after the pump will cause the pump to pressurize the line and and the fuel will stay liquid and continue to flow. I haven't got a fuel filter installed yet but it will goe AFTER the pumps. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. Airframe construction complete. Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:54 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tank --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Thanks Bryan. The ZAC plans show the filter between the gascolator and the engine driven pump, so I figured that was the way to go. I know what you're saying about vapor lock though. My plan is to have a fuel flow sender in the fuel line after the gascolator (from MGL Avionics), then a backup Facet pump in series with the engine pump. MGL says that the filter should be in the line before the sender so that the small turbine doesn't get clogged with dirt. I guess the gascolator screen would do this job, and I could put the filter between the engine pump and carbs. Also, I was planning on running lines from the wing locker tanks to the header tank, using a Facet pump on each wing tank. The lines were going to connect to the 2 fittings at the bottom of the header. Will this work, or should the wing tank fuel lines be connected to the fittings at the top of the header tank? Thanks...Dave ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:17 PM PST US From: "michael michael" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "michael michael" Dear Zenair people...I`m not trying to ruffle any feathers.... I realy like the 640. Here are a few questions. Can you flush rivet the 640, if you want to? Does anyone with a 640 have the subaru conversion under the hood? Thanks Michael in Toronto >From: "Zodie Rocket" <601xl@sympatico.ca> >Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 >Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 22:58:01 -0400 > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <601xl@sympatico.ca> > >Michael, not a fair comparison. Match Vans RV 10 to the Zenith 640. then >you are talking about comparable planes. IF your curious about Zenith >construction methods then drop by for a visit. I live only an hour away >from you and I'm building a 601XL from plans only. I'm hoping to build >the 640 next but the wife and I are having a battle over it. She wants >the Bearhawk. I'm going to take her to Oshkosh in a couple of weeks and >show her how much sewing she will have to do on the fabric Fuselage of >the Bearhawk. That should convince her on the 640. > >Mark Townsend >601XL EA-82 MPFI Turbo >Alma, Ontario. > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tank From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 7/21/03 1:08 AM, Dave Pepper at rockinrimranch@earthlink.net wrote: > Also, I was planning on running lines from the wing locker tanks to the > header tank, using a Facet pump on each wing tank. The lines were going to > connect to the 2 fittings at the bottom of the header. Will this work, or > should the wing tank fuel lines be connected to the fittings at the top of > the header tank? > I think I would attach them to the top of the header tank if possible. That way the fuel from the header tank can't possibly flow back down to the wing tanks and overflow them. Some of the Facet pumps allow a small amount of back flow when shut off, this is a design feature to allow the lines to depressurize after shutdown. Some Facet pumps don't allow any back flow, I don't recall the part numbers of which type does which. You may need to use check valves if you connect the transfer lines to the bottom of the header tank. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. Airframe construction complete. Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:26 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tank --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Good point, Bryan.