---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 07/21/03: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:49 AM - Re: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 (jnbolding1) 2. 05:56 AM - Update on XL (Dave Kubassek) 3. 07:55 AM - Re: Seat belt attachments (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 4. 08:08 AM - Re: Cortec 373 (nhulin) 5. 08:16 AM - 601XL/Corvair Engine Mount at OSH (nhulin) 6. 08:29 AM - Re: Update on XL (Daniel Vandenberg) 7. 09:29 AM - Re: Re: Update on XL (Dave Kubassek) 8. 09:58 AM - Re: Re: Update on XL (Don Walker) 9. 10:30 AM - XL - main gear attach bolts (David Barth) 10. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: Update on XL (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 11. 11:11 AM - Re: Update on XL (JERICKSON03E@aol.com) 12. 12:24 PM - Re: XL - main gear attach bolts (George Swinford) 13. 12:55 PM - Re: Update on XL (Dave Kubassek) 14. 01:00 PM - Re: XL - main gear attach bolts (Dave Kubassek) 15. 01:29 PM - Re: 601XL/Corvair Engine Mount at OSH (Brian Caithcart) 16. 02:20 PM - Re: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 (Larry McFarland) 17. 02:38 PM - Re: 601XL/Corvair Engine Mount at OSH (nhulin) 18. 02:50 PM - 601/Corvair Engine Mount - Show of hands please (nhulin) 19. 03:05 PM - Re: XL - main gear attach bolts (Rick Pitcher) 20. 03:09 PM - Wing Tank Transfer (Schallgren@aol.com) 21. 03:17 PM - Re: 601XL/Corvair Engine Mount at OSH (Rick Pitcher) 22. 03:19 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Dave Pepper) 23. 03:36 PM - Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS (Schallgren@aol.com) 24. 04:08 PM - Re: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 (michael michael) 25. 04:08 PM - Wing Tank Transfer (Schallgren@aol.com) 26. 04:20 PM - Re: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 27. 04:22 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Dave Pepper) 28. 04:34 PM - Re: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 (Clifton J. Bardwell) 29. 06:31 PM - Re: XL - main gear attach bolts (Dave Alberti) 30. 08:02 PM - Re: 601/Corvair Engine Mount - Show of hands please (Scott Laughlin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:22 AM PST US From: "jnbolding1" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1" She wants >the Bearhawk. I'm going to take her to Oshkosh in a couple of weeks and >show her how much sewing she will have to do on the fabric Fuselage of >the Bearhawk. Mark Next door neighbor is about 2500 hrs into a Bearhawk (his 3rd scratchbuilt airplane) and has maybe 1000 to go.He is an IA and works pretty quickly. He has everything covered up thru the silver and the only sewing is the fin, maybe 2 hrs but this is a big project . If you scratchbuild it you can have it on the gear ready for engine, instruments and paint for $10K or less. It's an AWESOME airplane, not your average pattern pony. Neighbors name is Bill Cox and he will be helping out in the Bearhawk booth. LOW&SLOW JOHN ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:48 AM PST US From: "Dave Kubassek" Subject: Zenith-List: Update on XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" For those of you enquiring An update on the flight testing of C-FDSF 601XL w/Lyc 0235. We now have a grand total of 6.5 hrs on tach. Flew 1.5 on sat am. I am begining to relax and starting to enjoy(Love) the experience I am not used to going so far in such a short time,,,,,,WOW Circuits and touring at stratford, woodstock and tillsonburg. Engine temps are now down in mid green range(180 deg.) now that we have a few hrs on this 0 timed engine. she purrs like a kitten.with a 7gph fuel consumption Climb rpm 2500 with 1000- 1200 fpm at 80 mph. with full fuel myself (210 lbs) and my 14 year old son (130 lbs).( i had to ask him to finally stop saying "Dad ,this is So Awesome" at least on final approach : ))...) cruise speed with the warp drive set at 10 deg. is indicating 110 mph confirmed with gps. to be quite accurate. On Take off and landing, try to avoid steep climb or flare angle as i found i was cutting some little grooves in the grass with my tie down ring at the rear. Just dont be too agressive with the stick at this point. alow it rather to build a little more speed and let it rather fly off v/s hauling it off as i was doing. And on landing ,let your flare angle be a little less steep. This thing actually has a very nice glide and i am vitually after a couple dozen ciruits virtually greasing it on every time. Not that i am any great pilot , it is just very nice handle and fly once you get the find the sweet spots. I am like Tottally impressed! At this point in order to deal with my nose slightly heavy problem (c/w installing lyc. eng.) I will replace the 14 lbs of temporary weight in the tail at this point with a 20 lb. plate under the battery and leave it at that. A note to those who are at the point of installing your aileron trim motor ........ Add a peice of metal let say8-10" square between the motor and the aileron. What is happening is when you have full down deflection the top skin is showing a slight buckling upwards... I'm thinking a stiffner plate under there would eliminate that??? Other than that, what can i say AWESOME : ))) She flys and handles like a dream,just plain Beautifull. It was worth every minute of effort it took to acomplish this.(which at this time is almost forgotten) P.S. My poor old champ is pouting in the back of the hanger now. I walked by her yesterday and she like totally ignored me and looked the other way. So i fired her up and took her for a spin and gave her back her old spot at the front of the hanger, and now all is well again,peace has been restored. Bless you Dudes dave k ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:46 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Seat belt attachments --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" space....:) Mine are in the wings, I'd rather rip them off and leave them behind while I calculate how long it will take me to assemble the RV 7 quickbuild kit when AIG coughs up the dough! Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Bockius [mailto:bruce@whiteantelopesoftware.com] He personally thought since the human body can withstand many more horizontal g's than vertical, plus that most aircraft have much more 'crush space' ahead of you than below you, that in an emergency landing in the always-to-short clearing he would much rather run into the trees at the end than to prang it down onto the ground in an effort to avoid the trees. On the positive side the ZAC designs pretty much described his safest plane: tractor design, metal (actually steel tube & fabric was a little safer he said), slow stall speeds. -Bruce/601HD/Stratus/TDO/375hrs > I also went through the calculations and it appeared that the 0.040 > straps were sized for the 175 lb person for 9 gs. Didn't > look like the > 1.33 was used for the fitting sizes. But my straps in the kit appear > to be 0.063. I still beefed them up a little to prevent the > bolt from > pulling through and because I doubt I'll see 175 again. > > > David Tellet, 601HD, ~50% done ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:07 AM PST US From: "nhulin" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cortec 373 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "nhulin" On Sun Jul 20 at 11:45 AM H. Robert Schoenberger (HRS4@prodigy.net) wrote: List . . . I've ordered a quart of Cortec 373 from ZAC to try in my basement "aircraft factory". I would appreciate any thoughts you might have on suitable non-toxic / non-flamable products or procedures which can be used prior to the application of the 373. Hap, I've been using the Cortec since the beginning of the project a couple of years ago. I only apply it between surfaces that mate. I've been cleaning the aluminium with soapy water and scotchbrite pads. Rinse the soap off and the water will bead when it is clean. No nasty chemicals just a strong arm, a fresh pad, and a few minutes time. No cleanup after either, just towel it down. I apply the Cortec using disposable gloves and a small square of foam. Because I use such a little amount I decant a small quantity into a plastic 35mm film canister. The canister is close enough to an airtight seal so I don't have much wastage. The exposed aluminium is left without any covering since I' not sure what paint process I will use and I didn't have any information about the Cortec's compatibility with anything else. One more thing - make sure it is absolutely dry before you put the pieces together because you'll never get them apart afterwards. ...neil Neil Hulin Cincinnati, OH Zodiac 601XL/Corvair (See the engine mount at OSH at the Contact! magazine booth) Forward Fuselage ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:19 AM PST US From: "nhulin" Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL/Corvair Engine Mount at OSH --> Zenith-List message posted by: "nhulin" Listers, I've just found out from William Wynne that there will be two engine mounts on display at Oshkosh. One will be available for purchase at the show to save some shipping costs. For more information and some pictures check out William's Q and A page at http://www.flycorvair.com/qanda.html To use this mount you will have to obtain the 6B6-4 and 6B6-5 engine mount fittings for the O-235 mount from ZAC or grind out the existing bolts and weld in some AN6-23 bolts - messy but doable. This mount will also require a custom cowl. ...neil Neil Hulin 601XL/Corvair Forward Fuselage ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:41 AM PST US From: Daniel Vandenberg Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Update on XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Daniel Vandenberg Dave... Thank's for the update. Just curious on your cruise speeds...have you added wheel pants/fairings yet? Is your prop pitch optimized for cruise or for climb? I believe Zenith quotes 75% cruise speeds for the O-235 XL at 138 mph...I would hope for real world speeds around 120 mph. http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/performance.html Dan --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" For those of you enquiring An update on the flight testing of C-FDSF 601XL w/Lyc 0235. We now have a grand total of 6.5 hrs on tach. Flew 1.5 on sat am. I am begining to relax and starting to enjoy(Love) the experience I am not used to going so far in such a short time,,,,,,WOW Circuits and touring at stratford, woodstock and tillsonburg. Engine temps are now down in mid green range(180 deg.) now that we have a few hrs on this 0 timed engine. she purrs like a kitten.with a 7gph fuel consumption Climb rpm 2500 with 1000- 1200 fpm at 80 mph. with full fuel myself (210 lbs) and my 14 year old son (130 lbs).( i had to ask him to finally stop saying "Dad ,this is So Awesome" at least on final approach : ))...) cruise speed with the warp drive set at 10 deg. is indicating 110 mph confirmed with gps. to be quite accurate. On Take off and landing, try to avoid steep climb or flare angle as i found i was cutting some little grooves in the grass with my tie down ring at the rear. Just dont be too agressive with the stick at this point. alow it rather to build a little more speed and let it rather fly off v/s hauling it off as i was doing. And on landing ,let your flare angle be a little less steep. This thing actually has a very nice glide and i am vitually after a couple dozen ciruits virtually greasing it on every time. Not that i am any great pilot , it is just very nice handle and fly once you get the find the sweet spots. I am like Tottally impressed! At this point in order to deal with my nose slightly heavy problem (c/w installing lyc. eng.) I will replace the 14 lbs of temporary weight in the tail at this point with a 20 lb. plate under the battery and leave it at that. A note to those who are at the point of installing your aileron trim motor ........ Add a peice of metal let say8-10" square between the motor and the aileron. What is happening is when you have full down deflection the top skin is showing a slight buckling upwards... I'm thinking a stiffner plate under there would eliminate that??? Other than that, what can i say AWESOME : ))) She flys and handles like a dream,just plain Beautifull. It was worth every minute of effort it took to acomplish this.(which at this time is almost forgotten) P.S. My poor old champ is pouting in the back of the hanger now. I walked by her yesterday and she like totally ignored me and looked the other way. So i fired her up and took her for a spin and gave her back her old spot at the front of the hanger, and now all is well again,peace has been restored. Bless you Dudes --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:29:09 AM PST US From: "Dave Kubassek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Update on XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" Hi Daniel I too was hoping for speeds around 115-120 realisticlly. No wheel pants yet as i may be installing 6" wheels to smooth thing out a little more for all the grass strips i fly into . But i am finding as i get the feel of things a liitle better my landing on grass are becoming a whole lot smoother and maybe the 5" wheels may be allrite after all, time will tell.. At this time my climb was my main concern ,and down the road i may take another degree or so out of the pitch and along with the wheel pants i am quite confident that 120 mph should be very attainable. Rite now with the 02235 reving at 2550 1 have 110 mph. Red line on the engine is 2800 so i have a little to play with. Rite now with Max load 0f 1400 lbs i am off in approx 650 ft . Landing roll with out accessive braking 850-900 ft ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Vandenberg" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Update on XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Daniel Vandenberg > > Dave... > > Thank's for the update. Just curious on your cruise speeds...have you added wheel pants/fairings yet? Is your prop pitch optimized for cruise or for climb? I believe Zenith quotes 75% cruise speeds for the O-235 XL at 138 mph...I would hope for real world speeds around 120 mph. > > http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/performance.html > > Dan > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" > > For those of you enquiring > An update on the flight testing of C-FDSF 601XL > w/Lyc 0235. > We now have a grand total of 6.5 hrs on tach. > Flew 1.5 on sat am. > I am begining to relax and starting to enjoy(Love) the experience > I am not used to going so far in such a short time,,,,,,WOW > Circuits and touring at stratford, woodstock and tillsonburg. > Engine temps are now down in mid green range(180 deg.) now that we have a few hrs > on this 0 timed engine. she purrs like a kitten.with a 7gph fuel consumption > Climb rpm 2500 with 1000- 1200 fpm at 80 mph. > with full fuel myself (210 lbs) and my 14 year old son (130 lbs).( i had to ask > him to finally stop saying "Dad ,this is So Awesome" at least on final approach > : > ))...) > cruise speed with the warp drive set at 10 deg. is indicating 110 mph confirmed > with gps. to be quite accurate. > On Take off and landing, try to avoid steep climb or flare angle as i found i > was cutting some little grooves in the grass with my tie down ring at the rear. > Just dont be too agressive with the stick at this point. alow it rather to build > a little more speed and let it rather fly off v/s hauling it off as i was doing. > And on landing ,let your flare angle be a little less steep. > This thing actually has a very nice glide and i am vitually after a couple dozen > ciruits virtually greasing it on every time. > Not that i am any great pilot , it is just very nice handle and fly once you get > the find the sweet spots. I am like Tottally impressed! > At this point in order to deal with my nose slightly heavy problem (c/w installing > lyc. eng.) I will replace the 14 lbs of temporary weight in the tail at this > point with a 20 lb. plate under the battery and leave it at that. > A note to those who are at the point of installing your aileron trim motor ........ > Add a peice of metal let say8-10" square between the motor and the aileron. > What is happening is when you have full down deflection the top skin is showing > a slight buckling upwards... > I'm thinking a stiffner plate under there would eliminate that??? > Other than that, what can i say AWESOME : > ))) > She flys and handles like a dream,just plain Beautifull. > It was worth every minute of effort it took to acomplish this.(which at this time > is almost forgotten) > P.S. My poor old champ is pouting in the back of the hanger now. > I walked by her yesterday and she like totally ignored me and looked the other > way. > So i fired her up and took her for a spin and gave her back her old spot at the > front of the hanger, and now all is well again,peace has been restored. > Bless you Dudes > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:58:47 AM PST US From: "Don Walker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Update on XL Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:58:13 -0500 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" ZAC speeds. I love my HDS and the attention it gets. Taildraggers are great!! I bought my kit in '93 after flying the prototype at the Tulsa fly-in in '92. Nick and Sebastian were absolutely great in helping me complete my plane. I just put three hundred hours on it yesterday. First flight June 1999. I also spoke quite a while that day and flew with Randy Shlitter of Rans Aircraft. Randy tried to be diplomatic but was cautioning me about the speed claims of "other" kitplanes. I knew he was referring to Zenith. The days I flew with Nick in the HDS we did 120 easily in the pattern with no strain. And of course they instructed us to get static pressure right out of the cabin in setting up the air speed.(We were actually doing about 100 to 105). Looking back now over the past ten years, I am certain that air speed is the only thing ZAC has been consciously deceptive about. Claiming a cruise of 140 for the prototype HDS wasn't fair to us. The 135 they lowered it to is still out of reach for all but the rare bird. I am not planning on building an XL, and I am a supporter of these designs, but it is disheartening to see this deception continue, though I understand the competitive market. Don Walker do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Kubassek To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 11:28 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Update on XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" Hi Daniel I too was hoping for speeds around 115-120 realisticlly. No wheel pants yet as i may be installing 6" wheels to smooth thing out a little more for all the grass strips i fly into . But i am finding as i get the feel of things a liitle better my landing on grass are becoming a whole lot smoother and maybe the 5" wheels may be allrite after all, time will tell.. At this time my climb was my main concern ,and down the road i may take another degree or so out of the pitch and along with the wheel pants i am quite confident that 120 mph should be very attainable. Rite now with the 02235 reving at 2550 1 have 110 mph. Red line on the engine is 2800 so i have a little to play with. Rite now with Max load 0f 1400 lbs i am off in approx 650 ft . Landing roll with out accessive braking 850-900 ft ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Vandenberg" To: Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Update on XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Daniel Vandenberg > > Dave... > > Thank's for the update. Just curious on your cruise speeds...have you added wheel pants/fairings yet? Is your prop pitch optimized for cruise or for climb? I believe Zenith quotes 75% cruise speeds for the O-235 XL at 138 mph...I would hope for real world speeds around 120 mph. > > http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/performance.html > > Dan > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" > > For those of you enquiring > An update on the flight testing of C-FDSF 601XL > w/Lyc 0235. > We now have a grand total of 6.5 hrs on tach. > Flew 1.5 on sat am. > I am begining to relax and starting to enjoy(Love) the experience > I am not used to going so far in such a short time,,,,,,WOW > Circuits and touring at stratford, woodstock and tillsonburg. > Engine temps are now down in mid green range(180 deg.) now that we have a few hrs > on this 0 timed engine. she purrs like a kitten.with a 7gph fuel consumption > Climb rpm 2500 with 1000- 1200 fpm at 80 mph. > with full fuel myself (210 lbs) and my 14 year old son (130 lbs).( i had to ask > him to finally stop saying "Dad ,this is So Awesome" at least on final approach > : > ))...) > cruise speed with the warp drive set at 10 deg. is indicating 110 mph confirmed > with gps. to be quite accurate. > On Take off and landing, try to avoid steep climb or flare angle as i found i > was cutting some little grooves in the grass with my tie down ring at the rear. > Just dont be too agressive with the stick at this point. alow it rather to build > a little more speed and let it rather fly off v/s hauling it off as i was doing. > And on landing ,let your flare angle be a little less steep. > This thing actually has a very nice glide and i am vitually after a couple dozen > ciruits virtually greasing it on every time. > Not that i am any great pilot , it is just very nice handle and fly once you get > the find the sweet spots. I am like Tottally impressed! > At this point in order to deal with my nose slightly heavy problem (c/w installing > lyc. eng.) I will replace the 14 lbs of temporary weight in the tail at this > point with a 20 lb. plate under the battery and leave it at that. > A note to those who are at the point of installing your aileron trim motor ........ > Add a peice of metal let say8-10" square between the motor and the aileron. > What is happening is when you have full down deflection the top skin is showing > a slight buckling upwards... > I'm thinking a stiffner plate under there would eliminate that??? > Other than that, what can i say AWESOME : > ))) > She flys and handles like a dream,just plain Beautifull. > It was worth every minute of effort it took to acomplish this.(which at this time > is almost forgotten) > P.S. My poor old champ is pouting in the back of the hanger now. > I walked by her yesterday and she like totally ignored me and looked the other > way. > So i fired her up and took her for a spin and gave her back her old spot at the > front of the hanger, and now all is well again,peace has been restored. > Bless you Dudes > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:30:39 AM PST US From: David Barth Subject: Zenith-List: XL - main gear attach bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth Hi Listers. - specifically XL builders I am trying to determine the grade of the main gear attach bolts. From 6-G-3 and 6-B-11 it is not apparent. All I have is that it is a 1/2 inch bolt with 20 threads per inch. Also it has a hole drilled in it for a cotter pin. Your suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks all David ===== David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder Still making parts. Nose Ribs Done and about half the rear ribs for the wings. Stab and elevator waiting for skins. Flaps, ailerons and Rudder ready for inspection. __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:45 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Update on XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" The real pity to me is that the zodiac has so many other qualities that ZAC don't mention. I too finished mine in 99 and now have just over 300 hours, We strap our sleeping bags up UNDER the baggage deck and we go off on ten day backpacking trips. We want an RV 7 but I just don't think we can get all our gear in it! I just love showing up at air shows and pulling endless quantities of stuff out of our little plane. Speed is one thing but the altitude performance is not there either. I think the HDS just runs out of wing at gross weight on a hot day. Certainly at 9000ft density altiude the plane is flying well nose high just to maintain altitude. This presumably further cuts down the cruise speed. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Don Walker [mailto:dwalk3dw@msn.com] Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Update on XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" ZAC speeds. I love my HDS and the attention it gets. Taildraggers are great!! I bought my kit in '93 after flying the prototype at the Tulsa fly-in in '92. Nick and Sebastian were absolutely great in helping me complete my plane. I just put three hundred hours on it yesterday. First flight June 1999. I also spoke quite a while that day and flew with Randy Shlitter of Rans Aircraft. Randy tried to be diplomatic but was cautioning me about the speed claims of "other" kitplanes. I knew he was referring to Zenith. The days I flew with Nick in the HDS we did 120 easily in the pattern with no strain. And of course they instructed us to get static pressure right out of the cabin in setting up the air speed.(We were actually doing about 100 to 105). Looking back now over the past ten years, I am certain that air speed is the only thing ZAC has been consciously deceptive about. Claiming a cruise of 140 for the prototype HDS wasn't fair to us. The 135 they lowered it to is still out of reach for all but the rare bird. I am not planning on building an XL, and I am a supporter of these designs, but it is disheartening to see this deception continue, though I understand the competitive market. Don Walker do not archive. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:33 AM PST US From: JERICKSON03E@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Update on XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com In a message dated 7/21/2003 7:57:21 AM Central Daylight Time, dkubassek@golden.net writes: > > At this point in order to deal with my nose slightly heavy problem (c/w > installing lyc. eng.) I will replace the 14 lbs of temporary weight in the tail > at this point with a 20 lb. plate under the battery and leave it at that. > Just a thought on tail weight. One of the Zenith trainers, CH 2000?, that was at a Mexico open house had a very substantial tail skid. Aluminum bar, bent to fit & bolted on. Has any one looked at that? For both tail protection as well as tail weight? Jerry, CH 701SP, wings in work ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:47 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL - main gear attach bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" David: Does it have an "x" on the head? If so, it's an AN 8. George Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Barth" Subject: Zenith-List: XL - main gear attach bolts > --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth > > Hi Listers. - specifically XL builders > I am trying to determine the grade of the main gear > attach bolts. From 6-G-3 and 6-B-11 it is not > apparent. All I have is that it is a 1/2 inch bolt > with 20 threads per inch. Also it has a hole drilled > in it for a cotter pin. Your suggestions would be > much appreciated. Thanks all > David > > ===== > David Barth > 601 XL Plansbuilder > Still making parts. Nose Ribs Done and about half the rear ribs for the wings. > Stab and elevator waiting for skins. Flaps, ailerons and Rudder ready for inspection. > > __________________________________ > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:42 PM PST US From: "Dave Kubassek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Update on XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" Probably a Great idea jerry! A tail skid would definatley prevent any tail/rudder damage which could quite conceivably happen if you where fully loaded and or rotated too abruptly. I had even thought of going to a local farm store TSC and picking up a castor wheel of some kind and fastening it at the rear of the fuselage. This should work as well. dave. C-FDSF .XL testing stages : ))) ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Update on XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com > > In a message dated 7/21/2003 7:57:21 AM Central Daylight Time, > dkubassek@golden.net writes: > > > > > > At this point in order to deal with my nose slightly heavy problem (c/w > > installing lyc. eng.) I will replace the 14 lbs of temporary weight in the tail > > at this point with a 20 lb. plate under the battery and leave it at that. > > > > Just a thought on tail weight. One of the Zenith trainers, CH 2000?, that was > at a Mexico open house had a very substantial tail skid. Aluminum bar, bent > to fit & bolted on. > > Has any one looked at that? For both tail protection as well as tail weight? > > Jerry, > CH 701SP, wings in work > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:06 PM PST US From: "Dave Kubassek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL - main gear attach bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" David Would you not want to go with a Grade 8 bolt??? I would think that would be more than adequate dave k ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Barth" Subject: Zenith-List: XL - main gear attach bolts > --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth > > Hi Listers. - specifically XL builders > I am trying to determine the grade of the main gear > attach bolts. From 6-G-3 and 6-B-11 it is not > apparent. All I have is that it is a 1/2 inch bolt > with 20 threads per inch. Also it has a hole drilled > in it for a cotter pin. Your suggestions would be > much appreciated. Thanks all > David > > ===== > David Barth > 601 XL Plansbuilder > Still making parts. Nose Ribs Done and about half the rear ribs for the wings. > Stab and elevator waiting for skins. Flaps, ailerons and Rudder ready for inspection. > > __________________________________ > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:25 PM PST US From: "Brian Caithcart" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL/Corvair Engine Mount at OSH --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brian Caithcart" Neil, Will this mount fit the 601HD/HDS? I have been wondering for some time if the XL uses the same engine mount as the HD/HDS. Brian Caithcart CH601HD/corvair building from plans >To use this mount you will have to obtain the 6B6-4 and 6B6-5 engine mount >fittings for the O-235 mount from ZAC or grind out the existing bolts and >weld in some AN6-23 bolts - messy but doable. This mount will also require >a >custom cowl. > >...neil > >Neil Hulin >601XL/Corvair >Forward Fuselage > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:04 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" > I`m intrested in the 640. & would love to build it if it was more inline. > with what else is on the market. or offered more. Prpunching goes a very > long way to swaying my mind... > > can you builders tell me what its like to measure all your holes...is it > easy? hard....do you make alot of mistakes. > > I would like to build the 640. I`m in toronto only 60 miles from head > office....but > > The RV-7 & 640 weight almost the same. meaning there is the same amount of > metal in both. > But the 640 is about $7000.00 more & not a prepunched hole to be seen... > > I realy like the 640. But its a matter of money & skill......What i dont > understand is why the 640 is so much money.....there is no prepunching.... > How does VAN`s make his kits so cheap. > Michael, Van's has invested heavily in really good tooling and machinery on the cusp of knowing he has a large buyer and repeat buyer base. Price comes down quickly with quantity and the confidence expressed by that guarantees success. No, the principal problem with measuring holes is the use of a straight edge prepunched to the pitch you want and checking against start point and interval of the crimps on the panels, ribs etc. Never drill freehand. Always know where your centerlines are get that interval measured from the part beneath on the strip template and verify before you drill the ink marks placed thru your template. Then nearly all the holes will be in a straight line and at the same spacing on the panels. There's no reason to make mistakes, tho I've drilled 3 or 4 that restarted my rudder early on by being in a hurry to drill freehand. When you screw it up, just do it over. Larry C. McFarland - 601hds at www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:16 PM PST US From: "nhulin" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL/Corvair Engine Mount at OSH --> Zenith-List message posted by: "nhulin" On Mon Jul 21 at 1:29 PM, Brian Caithcart (bcaithcart@hotmail.com) wrote: Will this mount fit the 601HD/HDS? I have been wondering for some time if the XL uses the same engine mount as the HD/HDS. Brian, I don't have the dimensions of the HD firewall to compare to the XL. Perhaps we can compare specs for the engine mount fittings offline and report our findings back to the list. That is, of course, unless someone out there has already looked into this issue. Anyone? I'll look at my diagrams and send you the XL dimensions in the next day or so. ...neil ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:41 PM PST US From: "nhulin" Subject: Zenith-List: 601/Corvair Engine Mount - Show of hands please --> Zenith-List message posted by: "nhulin" Listers, I've been working to help William Wynne develop the Corvair engine mount for the 601XL. I'll be meeting up with William next week at Oshkosh. Can I please have expressions of interest in the Corvair engine mount? Information that would be helpful: 601 Model (XL/HD/HDS) Current build status Expected completion date Build engine mount from plans or purchase from William (Build/Buy) Is the use of the ZAC O-235 cowl important to you? (We aren't even sure that this will work yet but at least one builder already has this cowl and has expressed interest in using it with the Corvair.) If we can source a custom cowl, would you prefer to buy something other than the ZAC O-235 cowl? Would you be prepared to make you own cowl? Comments on induction system, carb and cabin heat? Anything else that you consider important? Anything that you'd like me to talk to WW about and report back to the list? You can reply directly to me if you like. I'll put some statistics out after OSH. Thanks. Keep building. One day you will fly. ...neil ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:24 PM PST US From: Rick Pitcher Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL - main gear attach bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Pitcher George Swinford wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" > > David: > > Does it have an "x" on the head? If so, it's an AN 8. > > George The X can depict an AN bolt, but I thought most AN bolts were closer to grade 5. Grade 8 is stronger, but they're a little brittle, won't stand much bending before it snaps. I wouldn't substitute one for the other unless the manufacturer OK's it. Rick P. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:39 PM PST US From: Schallgren@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Wing Tank Transfer --> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com Dave said "Also, I was planning on running lines from the wing locker tanks to the header tank, using a Facet pump on each wing tank. The lines were going to connect to the 2 fittings at the bottom of the header. Will this work, or should the wing tank fuel lines be connected to the fittings at the top of the header tank? The arrangement noted by Dave has worked fine for us. The only problem is that there is no room to pump the fuel into the top of the header tank because it is snug up against the top forward skin. Our wing fuel is pumped into the header tank at about the 13 gallon level on the 15 gallon tank. We did burn out one wing transfer (facet) pump when we tryed to go above the 13 gallon level. Since limiting transfer up to about the 13 gallon level we have not had a problem. Stan 601HDS 125 hours ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:13 PM PST US From: Rick Pitcher Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL/Corvair Engine Mount at OSH --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Pitcher Brian Caithcart wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brian Caithcart" > > > Neil, > > Will this mount fit the 601HD/HDS? I have been wondering for some time if > the XL uses the same engine mount as the HD/HDS. I just ordered my Jabiru mount from ZAC. I was originally going to build it myself so I had Nicholas send me the drawings. He told me that ,Yes, the mounts are the same for an XL and an HD. The dimensions on the XL mount drawing (6-JE-1) are 856 mm between the top holes, 610 mm between the bottom holes, and 460 mm between the tops and bottoms. Same as the dimensions on the HD firewall drawing. Rick P. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:30 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Tank Transfer --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Stan, I guess there are mre powerful pumps than the Facet, which could handle pumping into the base of the header tank beyond the 13 gallon max. One question...do you have check valves in your lines from the wing tanks, or is the check valve incorporated into the Facet pump sufficient to stop reverse fuel flow back to the wing tanks? Did you consider plumbing the wing tanks directly into the gascolator through a ful selector, and why did yu chose not to do that? Thanks...Dave ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:05 PM PST US From: Schallgren@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com List: I do not support the statement quoted below: "Looking back now over the past ten years, I am certain that air speed is the only thing ZAC has been consciously deceptive about. Claiming a cruise of 140 for the prototype HDS wasn't fair to us. The 135 they lowered it to is still out of reach for all but the rare bird." Ours gets the 135 at the minimum and has gotten up to 140 mph (GPS confirmed) at 7,500'. A change of the original Prince prop to a Sensenich increased the speed significantly and wheel pants added another 5 mph. Will be interested to see what the sea level speeds will be as even the Prince prop did great coming out of OSH last year. Quality of build, empty weight, engine, altitude and temp are all critical factors in determining the cruise speed. Think we should consider a flyoff at the Open House Hangar day this year at Mexico to see how many 'rare birds' there are. Stan 601 HDS/Jabiru 3300/Sensenich 64/49 125 hours ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:10 PM PST US From: "michael michael" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "michael michael" I would like to corespond with anyone doing a scratch build of the zenair kits I`m very intrested in the 640. If you do scratch build how much do you save off kit price.? Are the plans scratch build friendly....do you have to scale up rib outlines or do you get them 1:1 scale & transfer to a forming block? any other tidbits of info is welcome. Michael in toronto. >From: "Larry McFarland" >Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 16:23:04 -0500 > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" > > > > I`m intrested in the 640. & would love to build it if it was more >inline. > > with what else is on the market. or offered more. Prpunching goes a very > > long way to swaying my mind... > > > > can you builders tell me what its like to measure all your holes...is it > > easy? hard....do you make alot of mistakes. > > > > I would like to build the 640. I`m in toronto only 60 miles from head > > office....but > > > > The RV-7 & 640 weight almost the same. meaning there is the same amount >of > > metal in both. > > But the 640 is about $7000.00 more & not a prepunched hole to be seen... > > > > I realy like the 640. But its a matter of money & skill......What i dont > > understand is why the 640 is so much money.....there is no >prepunching.... > > How does VAN`s make his kits so cheap. > > >Michael, >Van's has invested heavily in really good tooling and machinery on the cusp >of knowing he has a large buyer and repeat buyer base. Price comes down >quickly with quantity and the confidence expressed by that guarantees >success. > >No, the principal problem with measuring holes is the use of a straight >edge >prepunched to the pitch you want and checking against start point and >interval >of the crimps on the panels, ribs etc. Never drill freehand. Always know >where >your centerlines are get that interval measured from the part beneath on >the >strip template >and verify before you drill the ink marks placed thru your template. Then >nearly all the >holes will be in a straight line and at the same spacing on the panels. > >There's no reason to make mistakes, tho I've drilled 3 or 4 that restarted >my rudder >early on by being in a hurry to drill freehand. When you screw it up, just >do it over. > >Larry C. McFarland - 601hds at www.macsmachine.com > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:33 PM PST US From: Schallgren@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Wing Tank Transfer --> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com Dave: Your question: do you have check valves in your lines from the wing tanks, or is the check valve incorporated into the Facet pump sufficient to stop reverse fuel flow back to the wing tanks? Answer: We did have backflow when we mounted the Facet pump horizontally so we installed a separate check valve. Then-we read the instructions and mounted it at a high angle so the check valve would work. I believe(?) we removed the separate check valve after installing the Facet pump correctly. Your question: Did you consider plumbing the wing tanks directly into the gascolator through a fuel selector, and why did you chose not to do that? Answer: No, we did not. My building partner and I felt that having the fuel coming from a tank above the carburetor was the safest way to insure that fuel got to its intended destination. Stan ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:03 PM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" It is interesting how there seems to be a wide variation. I can tell you that there "appears to be" no correlation between quality of build and cruise speed. I spent a long time building mine (950 hours) and I know its straight and accurate. I know of others where the builder has told me of sighnificant errors and they are faster than my 110mph cruise. My wheelpants had a net effect of zero mph increase. I do know with my Subaru the cowling fit is terrible because it was designed for the Rotax...of course I still paid the same price! With your Jab you have no radiator dangling under the fuse. Every RV that I hear of (and I know this is only an impression) performs "as advertised" or better. Don's point is really about this variation but the majority of the "out of the crate" with the recommended prop and engined ZACs are MUCH slower than claimed. As I said though, this does not make it a bad airplane, far from it. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Schallgren@aol.com [mailto:Schallgren@aol.com] Subject: Zenith-List: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com List: I do not support the statement quoted below: "Looking back now over the past ten years, I am certain that air speed is the only thing ZAC has been consciously deceptive about. Claiming a cruise of 140 for the prototype HDS wasn't fair to us. The 135 they lowered it to is still out of reach for all but the rare bird." Ours gets the 135 at the minimum and has gotten up to 140 mph (GPS confirmed) at 7,500'. A change of the original Prince prop to a Sensenich increased the speed significantly and wheel pants added another 5 mph. Will be interested to see what the sea level speeds will be as even the Prince prop did great coming out of OSH last year. Quality of build, empty weight, engine, altitude and temp are all critical factors in determining the cruise speed. Think we should consider a flyoff at the Open House Hangar day this year at Mexico to see how many 'rare birds' there are. Stan 601 HDS/Jabiru 3300/Sensenich 64/49 125 hours advertising on the Matronics Forums. Share: Share photos & files with other List members. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:06 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Tank Transfer --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Stan, I guess it doesn't really matter where the wing tank fuel is pumped. If that tank's Facet pump fails, no fuel will end up in the carbs, since there is no way to pump fuel to either the header tank or the gascolator. Dave ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:46 PM PST US From: "Clifton J. Bardwell" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clifton J. Bardwell" I am scratch building the CH-640. Actually I haven't started yet, but I have purchased the plans. I can't say yet if the plans are "scratch build friendly". I have been reviewing them in preparation for building the rudder. I did have a few questions which were very promptly answered by Mathieu Heintz. The rib outlines are drawn in a much smaller scale than 1:1. I found it easy to scale them up, though, using TurboCad. While my price list is just an estimate, the parts for the rudder should cost just about half of the rudder starter kit offered by Zenair. Matthew Mucker is also building a 640. But more importantly he has a builder list which will give you an idea of other builders out there. His website is http://www.matthewmucker.com Hope this meager info helps. Thanks, Clif CH640-0039 http://homebuilt.duck.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of michael michael Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "michael michael" --> I would like to corespond with anyone doing a scratch build of the zenair kits I`m very intrested in the 640. If you do scratch build how much do you save off kit price.? Are the plans scratch build friendly....do you have to scale up rib outlines or do you get them 1:1 scale & transfer to a forming block? any other tidbits of info is welcome. Michael in toronto. >From: "Larry McFarland" >Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RVbuilder.....but i like the 640 >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 16:23:04 -0500 > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" >--> > > > > I`m intrested in the 640. & would love to build it if it was more >inline. > > with what else is on the market. or offered more. Prpunching goes a > > very long way to swaying my mind... > > > > can you builders tell me what its like to measure all your > > holes...is it easy? hard....do you make alot of mistakes. > > > > I would like to build the 640. I`m in toronto only 60 miles from > > head office....but > > > > The RV-7 & 640 weight almost the same. meaning there is the same > > amount >of > > metal in both. > > But the 640 is about $7000.00 more & not a prepunched hole to be > > seen... > > > > I realy like the 640. But its a matter of money & skill......What i > > dont understand is why the 640 is so much money.....there is no >prepunching.... > > How does VAN`s make his kits so cheap. > > >Michael, >Van's has invested heavily in really good tooling and machinery on the >cusp of knowing he has a large buyer and repeat buyer base. Price >comes down quickly with quantity and the confidence expressed by that >guarantees success. > >No, the principal problem with measuring holes is the use of a straight >edge >prepunched to the pitch you want and checking against start point and >interval >of the crimps on the panels, ribs etc. Never drill freehand. Always know >where >your centerlines are get that interval measured from the part beneath on >the >strip template >and verify before you drill the ink marks placed thru your template. Then >nearly all the >holes will be in a straight line and at the same spacing on the panels. > >There's no reason to make mistakes, tho I've drilled 3 or 4 that >restarted my rudder early on by being in a hurry to drill freehand. >When you screw it up, just do it over. > >Larry C. McFarland - 601hds at www.macsmachine.com > > direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:38 PM PST US From: "Dave Alberti" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL - main gear attach bolts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" Gear attachment is no place to start finding hardware that's "close enough" or "should be better than specified" The correct aircraft hardware just is not that expensive in the grand scheme of things. You just order what you need from spruce or many other places and it comes with or without the holes on the correct or both ends and in the correct grip length for the material being fastened. Not to mention that it's what the designer specified! Dave When the wind lets up I'm on my first flight! > I am trying to determine the grade of the main gear > attach bolts. From 6-G-3 and 6-B-11 it is not > apparent. All I have is that it is a 1/2 inch bolt > with 20 threads per inch. Also it has a hole drilled > in it for a cotter pin. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:05 PM PST US From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601/Corvair Engine Mount - Show of hands please --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" 601 Model: XL Current build status: Tail Done, Working on Wings, Engine Expected completion date: When I get done. Build engine mount from plans or purchase from William (Build/Buy): Probably Purchase Is the use of the ZAC O-235 cowl important to you?: I'll probably build my own cowl. If we can source a custom cowl, would you prefer to buy something other than the ZAC O-235 cowl: Yes, if the price is right. Would you be prepared to make you own cowl? YES. Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com